[05:42] <lifeless> moin
[05:46] <mwhudson> lifeless: in transit?
[05:47] <lifeless> mwhudson: den haag, GNU Hackers Meeting
[05:47] <mwhudson> lifeless: o right
[05:48] <mwhudson> lifeless: have you considered xapian for searching btw?
[05:49] <lifeless> yes
[05:49] <lifeless> gmane use it
[05:49] <lifeless> but it has almost zero buzz on internet scale sites
[05:49] <mwhudson> ok
[05:56] <lifeless> next-rollout instructions are on the main deployments page, right ?
[06:17] <lifeless> mwhudson: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~lifeless/launchpad/librarian/+merge/30880
[06:26] <lifeless> mwhudson: what happens when lazr encounters a new, unknown key?
[06:26] <mwhudson> lifeless: i'd have to experiment to be sure
[06:27] <lifeless> k
[06:27]  * lifeless experiments
[06:27] <lifeless> ah yes, it suicides
[06:27]  * lifeless doesn't understand this choking-consistency approach
[06:28] <lifeless> mwhudson: think I could convince you to click on 'approve' twice ?
[10:55] <james_w> lifeless: hi, could I get your vote on https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~james-w/launchpad/devel/+merge/30887 I'm having trouble submitting it the manual way.
[10:56] <nigelb> \o/ installing vm for playing around with LP!
[10:56] <lifeless> nigelb: cool
[10:56] <nigelb> I wonder if there are some low hanging bugs I could take a look at to figure out how to start.
[10:56] <lifeless> james_w: we should make that easier!
[10:57] <james_w> lifeless: we should
[10:57] <lifeless> nigelb: well, like with most projects thare a lots of bits around
[10:57] <lifeless> nigelb: I suggest, pick up something you're interested in, and follow your nose / ask for help dig in etc
[10:58] <nigelb> lifeless: hm I'll wait for things to be set up so I can play around
[10:59] <bryceh> nigelb, fwiw, I found the easiest things to work on were changing text in templates
[10:59] <bryceh> find an error in the UI, grep source code to find where it appears, fix, fix tests, go
[10:59] <nigelb> ahhh, like the bug I reported and you fixed.
[10:59] <nigelb> I should hunt around around for something like that then
[10:59] <bryceh> nigelb, yeppers
[11:06] <lifeless> poolie: whats the MP url?
[11:06] <poolie> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mbp/launchpad/flags/+merge/30581
[11:07] <lifeless> kicked off
[11:08] <poolie> thanks
[11:08] <poolie> what did you type?
[11:08] <poolie> ec2 test -b for me gives a weird misparsed url
[11:08] <lifeless> robertc@lifeless-64:~/source/canonical/launchpad-repo/devel$ PYTHONPATH=lib python utilities/ec2 land https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mbp/launchpad/flags/+merge/30581
[11:08] <poolie> specifically two urls string joined together
[11:09] <poolie> when i tested it i got some failures in codehosting, and i'm pretty sure i didn't break them
[11:09] <poolie> how does that work with ec2test?
[11:09] <lifeless> I think ec2test merges trunk
[11:09] <poolie> you have to keep merging trunk until other people's branches are fixed?
[11:09] <poolie> oh right, it does
[11:09] <poolie> in this case i want it to merge db-devel, but i guess it can get that from the mp
[11:10] <lifeless> https://lpbuildbot.canonical.com/one_box_per_builder will show you if we're recently broken on trunk etc
[11:13] <lifeless> poolie: http://ec2-204-236-213-119.compute-1.amazonaws.com/current_test.log should let you track it in tribunal
[11:13] <poolie> thanks, i'll have a poke at ec2 test
[11:14] <poolie> for the snags i hit
[11:14] <poolie> i just didn't want to leave thi stalled any longer
[11:14] <lifeless> cool
[11:14] <lifeless> I'm glad :)
[11:17] <poolie> lifeless, you should paste that email onto the blog
[11:18] <lifeless> which one ?
[11:20] <lifeless> poolie: ^
[11:20] <poolie> blog.l.n.
[11:22] <lifeless> poolie: which email!
[11:22] <poolie> architecture overview
[11:22] <lifeless> ah
[11:22] <poolie> s//architecture reviewe process/
[11:22] <lifeless> hmmm, do you think users will be that interested ?
[11:22] <poolie> architecture overview review process methodology definition process
[11:22] <poolie> :-P
[11:23] <lifeless> perhaps I'll put it on my blog
[11:23] <lifeless> that should get the developer orientated types pretty effectively
[11:24] <poolie> up to you
[11:24] <poolie> i think it will be interesting to users on the edge of being developers
[11:24] <poolie> at the moment the lp blog is a bit blah and i'd like to see it built up into something more attractive
[11:25] <lifeless> its kindof there to be there
[11:25] <lifeless> if you know what I mena
[11:25] <lifeless> mean
[11:25] <lifeless> I think the shorter iteration cycle will help a lot
[11:25] <lifeless> rather than splat per month
[11:25] <lifeless> splat per day
[11:27] <poolie> istm you are wearing the TA hat for that post
[11:27] <poolie> rather than the rbtc hat
[11:28] <lifeless> sure
[11:28] <lifeless> I'll think on it.
[11:28] <lifeless> I don't believe in role-blogs as a concept
[11:28] <lifeless> people and roles are not partitionable like that
[11:29] <lifeless> I like the blog for communicating with the LP community as a thing
[11:29] <lifeless> for widespread stuff, its great; its like
[11:29] <lifeless> lp-dev list subset of lp-users list subset of actual lp-users subset of folk interested in lp
[11:29] <lifeless> and the blog is pretty far reaching
[11:30] <lifeless> (I know they aren't strict subsets, its an analogy)
[11:32] <poolie> ah thanks for the buildbot link
[11:32] <poolie> interesting to see the build of their bzr integration there
[11:32] <lifeless> :)
[11:41] <poolie> lifeless, did that vm fail? the url doesn't work
[11:41] <lifeless> ec2test probably only opened my ip
[11:41] <lifeless> its up to lp.archiveuploader.tests.test_uploadprocessor.TestUploadProcessor.testOrderFilenames
[11:42] <poolie> jml! :)
[11:43] <lifeless> jml: your diff is empty
[11:43] <jml> lifeless, *your* diff is empty
[11:43] <lifeless> jml: did thoust push ?
[11:43] <jml> lifeless, I did!
[11:44] <jml> should be good now.
[11:44] <lifeless> jml: up for reviewing my librarian branch ?
[11:44] <jml> lifeless, no, sorry.
[11:44] <lifeless> jml: adds oops logging to it
[11:44] <lifeless> ah well :(
[11:44] <jml> lifeless, maybe once I've emptied my physical in-tray
[11:45] <lifeless> jml: that would be nice; I would like to kick it off within 22 hours or so
[11:45] <jml> lifeless, ok. I'll make a note.
[13:32] <lifeless> poolie: fyi https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/malone/+bug/607960
[13:32] <_mup_> Bug #607960: timeouts on Distribution:+bugs doing searches <fti> <search> <timeout> <Launchpad Bugs:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/607960>
[21:39] <jelmer> 'morning mwhudson
[21:40] <jelmer> mwhudson: do you have any experience with threads in C Python?
[21:42] <mwhudson> jelmer: only a little
[22:10] <thumper> morning
[22:11] <thumper> I'm heading off for a dentist appt shortly
[22:17] <jelmer> mwhudson: I'm trying to use pythread.h for a C worker thread without having to rely on pthreads, but I can find much documentation about the API.
[22:21] <mwhudson> jelmer: i guess the headers and the source are probably the most reliable documentation anyway :/
[23:15] <lifeless> wb
[23:15] <lifeless> what week is it ?
[23:19] <wgrant> I suspect week 2.
[23:19] <jelmer> I think week 3
[23:19] <wgrant> Or at least I hope so.
[23:19] <jelmer> rollout was on the 6th of july
[23:19] <wgrant> The Epic was week 0.
[23:19] <jelmer> ah, ok - week 2 then indeed
[23:19]  * wgrant consults the calendar.
[23:20] <wgrant> https://dev.launchpad.net/Releases/2010Calendar says week 2.
[23:21] <mwhudson> lifeless: re https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~lifeless/launchpad/malone/+merge/30904, it seems mostly reasonably
[23:22] <mwhudson> *reasonable
[23:22] <mwhudson> lifeless: have you talked to the bugs developers about this?
[23:22] <lifeless> no
[23:22] <lifeless> why?
[23:22] <lifeless> I mean - the tests and code are pretty clear.
[23:22] <mwhudson> just wondering really
[23:22] <lifeless> I think we're a bit too siloed at the moment, really.
[23:22] <lifeless> but maybe thats just me.
[23:22] <mwhudson> yeah probably
[23:23]  * mwhudson attempts to articulate more clearly
[23:23] <lifeless> mwhudson: while you're around
[23:23] <lifeless> perhaps you could review by librarian oops branch
[23:23] <mwhudson> lifeless: have you thought about ways to detect if this change will reduce the usefulness of the dup search?
[23:23] <lifeless> mwhudson: yes, and - I'm sure it will, to a point.
[23:24] <lifeless> mwhudson: the bugs devs that aren't on leave have all expressed their desire for and rather than or, FWIW
[23:24] <lifeless> for terms and tags and so on
[23:24] <mwhudson> ok cool
[23:24] <lifeless> I think though, that as far as dup detection goes, we'll find that we end up with a cluster of dups that indirect to a sane master
[23:25] <lifeless> so we'll get a bit more chaff up front to seed it, and then it will be better than it is today.
[23:25] <lifeless> fingers crossed.
[23:25] <mwhudson> lifeless: i guess what would have made me really happy to review this would be some evidence of pre-implementation discussion in the mp
[23:25] <lifeless> mwhudson: I intend to bring up pre-impl as a misfeature of process
[23:25] <lifeless> it was instituted to fix a bug we've now fixed other ways.
[23:26] <mwhudson> lifeless: maybe
[23:26] <lifeless> I think its great, and important, to socialise changes, but pre-impl doesn't do that.
[23:26] <mwhudson> i don't mean pre-imp in a formal sense i guess
[23:26] <lifeless> this particular change has been discussed in detail with poolie as a teddy bear
[23:26] <mwhudson> i just mean 'someone other than me things this is a good idea'
[23:27] <mwhudson> *thinks
[23:27] <lifeless> various bugs folk on hte list
[23:27] <lifeless> a prelude-to-it with francis
[23:27] <lifeless> :P
[23:27] <mwhudson> lifeless: ok, that's great
[23:27] <mwhudson> lifeless: less back and forth if you'd said this in the mp though
[23:27] <lifeless> mwhudson: whats at the heart of wanting to know that someone other than you and I think its a good idea?
[23:28] <lifeless> mwhudson: I'm open to changing, but the bzr team doesn't have this friction, so the first thing I want to do is understand what it solves.
[23:28] <mwhudson> lifeless: the thing here is that there's an element of a design decision here
[23:28] <mwhudson> 'is this going to affect dup search quality'
[23:29] <mwhudson> if it was just making tests more precise or whatever i wouldn't be quibbling
[23:29] <lifeless> mwhudson: go on
[23:29] <mwhudson> or if it was in an area i'm more comfortable with
[23:31] <mwhudson> lifeless: so it makes me more comfortable to hear there's been discussion about it
[23:31] <mwhudson> that's all
[23:32] <lifeless> mwhudson: ok; I worry there is something fishy at the bottom of this : a sort of fear of fixing things outside-ones-area, or something.
[23:33] <wgrant> Is that fishy at all?
[23:34] <wgrant> It's not *good*, but it's the way the team is set up.
[23:34] <lifeless> wgrant: yes, we all need to own the stack we work with - top to bottom
[23:34] <mwhudson> lifeless: where is your librarian oops branch?
[23:35] <lifeless> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~lifeless/launchpad/librarian/+merge/30880
[23:35] <lifeless> wgrant: its only slightly setup that way
[23:36] <lifeless> wgrant: it would be sad if unpaid coontributors felt safer and more able to hack on any part of the system than paid contributors. (Not saying mwhudson feels that way: we're exploring a fear *I* have after all)
[23:38] <mwhudson> lifeless: approved both branches
[23:38] <lifeless> thanks
[23:38] <wgrant> lifeless: I'm happy hacking anywhere, but I always check with a member of the relevant team. That team controls the code, I feel, so everything should go through them.
[23:39] <mwhudson> lifeless: to go over my feelings a bit, i don't think it's area-related
[23:39] <lifeless> wgrant: this has kindof accreted
[23:39] <mwhudson> lifeless: it's just that imho some changes require discussion
[23:39] <mwhudson> and some don't
[23:39] <mwhudson> discussion in the direction sense
[23:39] <lifeless> wgrant: there are unmaintained areas which are kindof a side effect of partitioning. I dunno, its a theory.
[23:40] <mwhudson> this one did, and i wanted to make sure such discussion had happened
[23:40] <wgrant> lifeless: Are they really a side-effect of partitioning?
[23:40] <wgrant> I thought they were quite deliberately completely abandoned and left to rot.
[23:40] <wgrant> And by extension make Launchpad look bad.
[23:40] <lifeless> wgrant: har har har
[23:40] <wgrant> Well, maybe that last bit wasn't deliberate.
[23:40] <lifeless> mwhudson: mmm. This is perhaps a beer talk.
[23:41] <lifeless> mwhudson: In particular though, I don't want us to confuse 'high risk, needs mitigation' with 'changing an old decision'
[23:42] <lifeless> mwhudson: for the search, there is a single if block to totally reinstate the old (fails with timmeout 99% of time) behaviour
[23:42] <lifeless> mwhudson: so the change has the ability to be rolled back trivially
[23:42] <wgrant> lifeless: Fails with timeout 99% of the time *in some contexts*.
[23:42] <wgrant> It's not completely broken.
[23:42] <lifeless> wgrant: thats true, its only 50% on launchpad itself.
[23:42] <lifeless> and 40% or so on bzr
[23:42] <mwhudson> lifeless: i probably made this into a bigger deal than necessary by explaining myself poorly
[23:42] <mwhudson> lifeless: it's monday morning :-)
[23:42] <wgrant> Hm. I rarely see it time out on LP projects.
[23:43] <lifeless> mwhudson: :) sunday am now
[23:43] <lifeless> wgrant: turn off edge redirect.
[23:43] <wgrant> lifeless: Ah.
[23:43] <lifeless> wgrant: you're already running the first iteration of lifeless-tuning on this.
[23:43] <lifeless> mwhudson: sorry, I mean, monday am, sunday late evening.
[23:44] <lifeless> mwhudson: its not a big deal, its just a background task.
[23:44] <mwhudson> lifeless: cool
[23:44] <lifeless> mwhudson: j'adore bzr culture, and I want to bring it into LP
[23:44] <lifeless> one of those things is to unblock *even on risky things* by finding ways to reduce the impact / reduce the time to recover
[23:44] <mwhudson> lifeless: well ok, but i think the launchpad culture of talking about things before doing them is actually not a bad thing
[23:44] <lifeless> mwhudson: pros and cons
[23:45] <lifeless> mwhudson: I adore getting solid constraints and requirements and set based design
[23:45] <lifeless> mwhudson: for things of that scope
[23:45] <lifeless> mwhudson: for iterating, I think a simpler model works well. Anyhow, as I say - background task.
[23:46]  * lifeless twiddles waiting for spm :P
[23:54] <wgrant> lifeless: When are you flying?
[23:54] <lifeless> 1800
[23:56] <wgrant> Ah.