=== III1 is now known as III
lilstevieis anyone about?06:25
=== cooloney is now known as cooloney-afk
=== cooloney-afk is now known as cooloney
lagogra: Ping09:23
laghrw: Morning09:46
laghrw: Thanks for the Linked-in add09:46
laghrw: You'd do well to change your picture09:46
lagYou don't look like that anymore :)09:46
hrwI am lazy when it comes to pictures09:47
lagIt's the reason I didn't recognise you in Prague09:49
hrwI shaved and haircut on Thursday09:49
lagDid you have hair before then?09:50
lagA big change for you then09:52
lagIt looks better now09:52
lagmythripk: ping10:19
XorAheh makes ubuntu sound like a cult, must shave head before meeting :-)11:00
lagWell you know that computer programmers have a reputation for being intimidating and hard! ;)11:02
* XorA wonders if Henry Rollins is an ubuntu developer11:04
lagI hear Charles Bronson also dabbles11:06
hrwI wrote nice patch during sprint - it dropped hrw@ubuntu.com from binutils/README.cross as such one does not exists11:17
* hrw is neither Debian or Ubuntu developer11:17
loolWould someone know which host is the armel porter box in the Canonical DC?11:18
loolI tried rimu and jocote, but these are dead apparently11:18
laglool: kakadu11:37
loollag: kakadu to you too11:45
looloh wait, is that an hostname?   :)11:45
laglool: Yes :)11:45
loollag: Works, thanks11:46
laglool: np11:47
loollag: Do you know how to install build-deps?11:48
loolhmm apt-get install11:48
laglool: What are you trying to do?11:49
loollag: install build-deps of a package; sudo apt-get install works11:49
loolERROR: package 'libjack0' marked for removal but the system does not allow removals11:49
lagNothing to do with me11:51
lagYou'll have to speak to IS11:51
loolit's ok, I can live without the package I was missing; it seems it will meed mvo to fix some rapt script11:51
loolfirst time I see this script BTW11:51
loolchrisccoulson: Hey11:54
loolchrisccoulson: Unfortunately, yao is .cn and michaelh .nz, and they are both offline now11:55
chrisccoulsonah, ok11:55
lool(they are the main folks looking into the issue, and the other folks have other tasks)11:55
chrisccoulsoni'm just trying to figure out how to run it without jit (i know it's possible to do that when creating the JSContext, but i'm not sure if it looks for something in the environment)11:56
hrwlool: apt-get build-dep package11:57
loolhrw: this doesnt work in the porter boxes11:57
loolhrw: only apt-get install is allowed11:57
hrwok, good to know11:57
* hrw avoids foreign machines11:57
loolchrisccoulson: Running it on imacro_asm.js alone is enough to crash it, but on an empty file or on imacros.jsasm, it doesn't crash11:59
ukleineklool: apt-get install -o "Dir::Etc::SourceList $HOME/mysources.list" setuidbash :-)11:59
chrisccoulsonlool, yeah, i'm seeing the same behaviour here11:59
loolukleinek: Eh11:59
loolchrisccoulson: A trivial file with "i = 0;"12:03
loolbreaks it12:03
chrisccoulsonlool - i think it's already running without JIT (in any case, running with "-j" still causes it to crash, and that option toggles the state of JIT)12:04
loolchrisccoulson: Hmm ok, there's also a -o jit, but I couldn't unset it properly12:05
loolchrisccoulson: Would it make sense to try to build the tip of the js tree from mozilla-central to see if it's still there?12:05
chrisccoulsoni just had a look at the code for the shell, and passing "-j" causes it to do "JS_ToggleOptions(cx, JSOPTION_JIT);"12:06
loolchrisccoulson: a workaround we could try is -fno-strict-aliasing12:06
loolchrisccoulson: lunch here, bbl12:07
* lag wonders where ogra is today12:38
ograbusy with non IRC stuff, sorry12:38
ograwhats up ?12:38
lagThe daily builds appear to have stopped building on the 20th?12:39
ograyes, there are issues with the image size of the filesystem12:40
ograi'm working on debugging it12:40
loolchrisccoulson: back12:40
lagogra: And the 20th is the one that's broken12:40
ograsomehow we create to small images for no apparent reasons12:40
ograso the cp'ing of the chroot content fails with "no space left on device" errors12:41
lagIs this something you're working on right now?12:41
lagThen I'll leave you to it12:41
ograi dont get the reason though12:41
lagCan you poke me when it's complete12:41
ogradf -ks |cut -f1 is how we get the size12:41
lagdf: invalid option -- 's'12:42
lagTry `df --help' for more information.12:42
ogradd if=/dev/zero of=<image> bs=1024 count=0 seek=<size> ... is how we create the image12:42
ogradu -ks, sorry12:42
lagOkay, that works12:42
ograaccording to the manpage du -ks gives me the value of 1k bytes12:42
ograso using bs=1024 needs to create an exactly sized image file12:43
ograi dont get where the overhead comes from12:44
ograapparently there is some12:44
chrisccoulsonlool - i was just about to try building our firefox-4.0 package, which is basically what's in mozilla-central;12:44
loologra: what do you du?12:44
lagogra: Yes it does12:44
ogralool, creating ext2 images12:44
loolchrisccoulson: Ok, I copied over src/js and ran autoconf, configure, and am building now12:44
loolchrisccoulson: But your plan sounds good12:44
ukleinekogra: there is some fs overhead, no?12:45
loologra: Do you du the .img file, or the contents of the image?12:45
ogralool, the build chroot12:45
looleven if you du all files in the fs, there is more space used by the fs12:45
loolwith fs structures12:45
loolsuperblocks for instance are obviously not accounted per file12:45
ograwe also add 10M for a potential journal to the size variable12:45
ograi would have expected to have some overhead, but more than 10 meg ?12:46
loolthis seems really fragile12:46
ograit is what livecd-roofs uses for the squashfs size computation12:47
ograseems ext*fs has some more overhead12:47
ogra(the same code is used by angstrom for creating their images btw)12:47
ukleinekogra: apt-cache show genext2fs12:48
ograukleinek, thats what causes my headdache12:48
ograand why i'm working at the code :)12:49
ukleinekah, I thought there was no need to specify an image-size12:49
loolchrisccoulson: Happy to hear when you have a firefox-4.0 build finished; if my tip build doesn't help, I'll try with -fno-strict-aliasing12:49
ogragenext2fs allocates the whole size of the target image in ram12:49
ograbefore copying anything into it12:49
ograwith our 1.6G images that takes 2h and about 2G swap12:50
ograwe initially used genext2fs ... i'm currently attempting to switch to a loop mounted img file instead12:50
loolloop-mounted?  doesn't that require root?12:52
ogralool, we have root on the livefs builders12:53
ograno prob there12:54
ograjust not on antimony12:54
looloh right12:54
ogra21032 blocks (5.00%) reserved for the super user12:54
ograsilly me :P12:54
loolchrisccoulson: js from mozilla-central segfaults too13:08
chrisccoulsonlool - ah, ok. i can probably stop the firefox-4 build then13:09
loolchrisccoulson: Hmm it doesn't use any shared libs or anything does it?13:12
loolchrisccoulson: I'm running gdb on the unstripped shell/js file, but the stacktrace is worthless, did you do anything to get a nice backtrace?13:12
loolReading symbols from /home/lool/js/src/shell/js...(no debugging symbols found)...done.13:12
loolah, not built with -g *me bangs head*13:12
chrisccoulsonheh ;)13:13
* lool builds with -g -ggdb -O0 -fno-strict-aliasing now13:13
loolchrisccoulson: ~lool/js/src.tgz is a base tree ifyou like13:13
* lool grmpfs - mozilla configure doesn't take CFLAGS on the cmdline13:14
hrw~curse linux-meta ubuntu crap13:18
hrwapt-get source linux-what-it-is-called-today suxx13:19
amitkhrw: it is always linux-image-<flavour>13:21
hrwno,  it is linux-image-version-abi-flavour13:21
hrwand version and abi changes daily, twice daily, weekly, randomly13:22
amitkI thought you wanted meta source?13:22
hrwI want source13:22
amitksure, whats wrong with abi changing?13:22
hrwif I want meta I do 'apt-get source linux-meta'13:22
ograapt-get source linux ?13:22
hrwogra: will grab linux-meta instead13:22
ograoh, right13:22
* ogra always forgets that13:22
hrwogra: there was bug about it since ubuntu 3.04 or older13:23
hrwbug #-213:23
loolhrw: apt-get --only-source source linux13:23
hrwlool: thx13:24
loolcrap, I have to pass CXXFLAGS as well13:31
loolThere, finally, it builds with the proper flags13:33
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dyfetogra: hi!  I have not had a chance to unpack yet13:35
ogradyfet, take your time13:36
dyfetwell, I also have some pain killers for my eye...13:36
loolGRR -O3 overrides my user-specified -O013:47
looland -fstrict-aliasing as well13:48
loolchrisccoulson: How is one expected to pass flags to the builds?13:48
chrisccoulsonlool, what flags do you want to pass?13:48
loolchrisccoulson: I'd like to pass CFLAGS="-g -ggdb -O0 -fno-strict-aliasing -Wall" CXXFLAGS="$CFLAGS"13:49
loolMODULE_OPTIMIZE_FLAGS is apparently what I'm supposed to set13:49
looland INTERP_OPTIMIZER, sigh13:49
chrisccoulsonlool - doing "export CFLAGS=...." before running configure should work13:50
loolchrisccoulson: does not, MODULE_OPTIMIZE_FLAGS and INTERP_OPTIMIZER take precedence (my flags are passed, but overriden later in command-lines)13:50
loolI see some -Os now, from /somewhere/13:51
loolchrisccoulson: The evil thing is that different files are compiled with different opts, so it seemed like I was finally using the proper ones, but no, I wasn't for some files   :-/13:52
chrisccoulsonlool - does it work if you build with --disable-optimize?13:52
loolchrisccoulson: Didn't try that one13:53
loolMOZ_OPTIMIZE_FLAGS is where -Os comes from13:53
chrisccoulson--disable-optimize should switch off building different files with different optimizations13:53
loolI will pass that *and* turn all the nasty flags off explicitly on make13:54
* lool looks hard and doesn't see any -Os or -O3 or -fstrict-aliasing anymore13:59
looland the build is faster in -O013:59
loolchrisccoulson: Yep, same issue with every opt turned off14:06
loolsame bt14:07
lool#0  0x00072688 in js_CheckForStringIndex (id=1514652) at jsobj.cpp:400614:07
lool#1  0x00073c9c in js_SetPropertyHelper (cx=0x1b7900, obj=0x40602000,  id=1514652, defineHow=9, vp=0xbeb433c0) at jsobj.cpp:501214:07
asaclool: if you want to use the same -Ox everywhere you can say: --enable-optmize="-Os"  for instance ... this will override all subtree optimization etc. (not sure if thats what you ask)14:07
loolasac: that was the goal, yes, well that and other flags14:08
asaclool: the subtree optimizes are tuned by mozilla. they would be happy to get better tuning for armel from talking to a few folks at moz summit. but just -O2 etc. wont be right.14:09
asacwhat problem triggers this?14:09
asaccrashes with our new toolchain?14:09
loolchrisccoulson: eh, s == 0x00000008 now14:10
loolasac: the js interpreter in xulrunner/firefox builds is broken with the new toolchain14:11
loolasac: What I hate with the mozilla thing is that my flags don't get precedence14:11
asacwhich flags do you want to remove/add?14:12
asaclool: ?14:12
loolasac: it's ok now, the flags were discussed earlier here: -O0, -g, -ggdb, -Wall, -fno-strict-aliasing and such14:13
loolI managed to pass the flags, but now I'm trying to debug, and it doesn't look too nice14:13
asaclool: for best debugging you could use --disable-optimize and --enable-debug14:13
asacand then start it from dist/bin directly14:14
asac(but i guess that was already mentioned too)14:14
loolasac: This is the information I was looking for earlier, but now I have a debug build14:19
loolasac: Are you tempted to look into this?14:19
asaclool: --enable-debug also enables assertion logging etc. so it might be helpful if you dont get that atm. (e.g. if you start you should see a bunch of prints etc.)14:21
asaclool: i dont think i will be able figure these toolchain induced problems easily.14:22
hrwzumbi: thx for mail - will reply14:39
zumbihrw: no problem.. I do not know why i did not see it before14:40
hrwzumbi: number of your ITP is?14:46
zumbihrw: why?14:48
zumbiand discussion upon -devel14:51
loolzumbi: So what's the model for these sources?14:52
loolzumbi: Is it the same source tree uploaded multiple times?14:53
loolgcc-4.3, does someone still care about this??14:53
loolzumbi: what about linux headers?14:53
hrwzumbi: wanted to read14:55
loolhrw: read?14:56
hrwlool: yes, read - I do such thing with bug reports14:56
loolzumbi: So I see only one gcc and one eglibc source package; I understand you will go through 6 or so uploads at least everytime the linux headers change or something14:57
zumbilool: i prefer delay discussion for debconf14:57
loolzumbi: Your ITPs seem to use the same model I was using for my cross-toolchain source tree, is that the one?14:57
hrwzumbi: bookmarked those14:57
hrwzumbi: will mail debian-embedded/linaro-toolchain with more info14:58
zumbilool: not exactly, but i keep you in copyright files14:58
zumbihrw: thanks14:58
loolzumbi: I personally concluded that this wasn't a sane model14:59
loolToo many uploads, or out of date toolchains, and too many source packages14:59
zumbilool: is not your model, and what do you care? I am the one who step up for maintainance15:00
zumbiwithin Debian15:00
zumbiI have been holding upload for later discussion15:00
zumbimultiarch, sysroot and emdebian way of doing things15:00
loolzumbi: I care because I will be using Debian cross-toolchains too, and because I care about Debian!15:00
zumbiI would prefer to coordinate with you all, so I propose to discuss this at debconf15:01
loolzumbi: Discussing at Debconf is fine too, but we can as well discuss some of it now?15:01
zumbiplease note I am not against you15:01
loolOne doesn't prevent the other  :)15:01
hrwzumbi: now we have "source binary packages" for eglibc, gcc-4.[45], linux, binutils15:01
loolzumbi: I'm not saying you're against me15:01
zumbilool: I am at work15:01
zumbinone pais me to do this work15:02
loolzumbi: Ok; if you can't chat now, we can chat later or only at debconf15:02
hrwzumbi: soon (before maverick alpha3 if all go ok) we will have stages support in eglibc/gcc/linux and also their debian/rules* in *-source packages15:02
zumbilater should be fine, but i rather have a meeting at debconf if you really care (on all arches)15:02
loolzumbi: I don't think the arches matter really15:02
zumbihrw: but only working on armel :/15:02
hrwzumbi: no - any non-bi/triarch15:03
loolzumbi: It's unfortunate that we broke other arches, but it's not intended and am sure it can be fixes15:03
hrwzumbi: tested only for armel yes15:03
zumbihey guys, lets better discuss later or by mail if you do not mind15:04
zumbiplease, and I am not against you15:04
rsavoyedoes maverick-ARM run under QEMU at all ?15:04
hrwI hope that we (Linaro and Emdebian) will have a chance once to meet in one place and discuss15:04
hrwrsavoye: should15:04
rsavoyeis it faster than a beagle ? :-)15:05
hrwzumbi: I am trying to be as much as possible not against anyone. If I will became such then tell15:05
hrwrsavoye: maybe on 30GHz x86-64...15:05
hrwthat zero is not mistake15:05
rsavoyeoh well...15:06
zumbihrw: no, you are fine15:06
rsavoyetoo bad cross-compiling is so broken for most packages15:06
hrwrsavoye: thats debian/ubuntu errors15:07
zumbihrw: but i have the feeling that lool, slangasek and partialy doko, do not undetrstand me and they are somehow mad at me. But it is just a feeling.15:07
XorAhrw has the patches to fix thousands of cross compile issues :-)15:07
hrwrsavoye: openembedded has thousands of cross compiled ones15:07
rsavoyeI know, but I prefer to not use the OE build style15:07
hrwzumbi: they did less crosscompilations that we did15:08
loolzumbi: I'm not mad at you  :-)15:08
slangasekzumbi: I'm not mad at you, but you clearly working at cross-purposes to what we're trying to achieve with multiarch15:08
hrwrsavoye: so merge our (OE) patches15:08
rsavoyeunfortunately it was OpenJDK I was hoping to cross compile, but it looks like a mess15:08
loolzumbi: You seem to be pushing for solutions which we identified as incomplete already15:08
hrwrsavoye: it is a mess but crossbuildable mess15:08
slangasekand I've already explained how this is the case, so I'm at a loss to how I can clarify this15:08
zumbislangasek: happy to hear that I hope we can discuss further at debconf15:08
hrwso far I am ignoring 'multiarch' word and just do cross stuff15:09
rsavoyeI see the long list of patches, I have to decide if I want to apply them all, and then fix things to cross compile with your toolchain, not OE15:09
hrwrsavoye: I know15:09
zumbilool: I am not pushing anything, I could have the upload done and end with the issue. But I hold because I want consensus. Let's better talk at debconf and please also consider Squeeze release in mind15:10
zumbihrw: how does OE build their cross toolchains? do they use sysroot?15:10
zumbihrw: have you experienced the with-libs/with-headers pain?15:10
hrwzumbi: sysroot only now15:11
hrwzumbi: non sysroot way is argh but I feel that multiarch debian will force that way15:11
zumbiyes, everybody does, I do not know why do not work for lool15:12
zumbianyway, lets better delay discussion for later (or debconf)15:12
hrwI hope for notes from debconf meeting15:13
zumbihrw: I always try to be transparent -- do not worry for that15:14
loolzumbi: Well if you had proceeded with an upload, you wouldn't have put an end to the issue, since I would be unhappy  :-)15:15
loolzumbi: There are multiple discussions going on; one is about cross-compiler packages, and another one is about cross-compiling Debian15:16
loolConcerning cross-compiler packages, what you used to do should still be possible in the future, but might be temporarily broken (patches welcome); it should also be more solid going forward15:16
loolSince we don't have parallel sets of rules for cross versus non-cross15:16
loolIt will *also* allow uploading a single cross-toolchain-armel package which will trigger a while toolchain bootstrap15:17
loolYou don't seem to look at the latter, I don't understand why15:17
slangasekzumbi: to satisfy the requirements for multiarch, the trees for all architectures *must* have the same root, and it must be /; and consequently, sysroot will fail to allow coinstallability, because the architecture tuple is part of the sysroot path, *not* part of the paths for the subdirectories15:17
zumbiI rather have binutils-cross which builds all binutils targets15:17
loolI went with the 4 source packages + 6 uploads route myself, just like the one you ITP-ed, and it's *pain*, and we have another way which seems superior?15:17
hrwzumbi: 'all binutils targets' == all arches?15:18
loolzumbi: This is a valid approach, it's not what you ITP-ed; I don't think it's a good approach either, but for different reasons15:18
loolhrw: *That's what I understood at least)15:18
zumbislangasek: yes, at the end, I understand your point :) -- but I am still convinced that multiarch and sysroot should be compatible and that is not going to happen for Squeeze, later we can change15:19
slangasekI don't see any reason they wouldn't be compatible15:19
slangasekit's just that neither helps the goals of the other15:20
zumbilool: sure, ITP should be renamed then, I though on that after filing the ITP, but that time none care, so I did not had to coordinate much15:20
zumbislangasek: true, I saw your point, makes sense to me15:21
loolzumbi: I don't think having multiarch and sysroot compatible wouldn't land for squeeze, it's not a complex patch, just need to agree on pathnames15:22
zumbilool: sure, lets talk later or at debconf about it. And let me repeat, I am not against you, but I was the only one caring on cross tools on the last 5-6 years, and doko does not even allow me to touch his tree.15:25
zumbibut hey.. does not matter! We are good friends and we can discuss this like persons15:25
* ogra GRRs at the archive 15:27
loolzumbi: I'm not against you, I'm against the proposal of -armel packages because I went through that and I think that's heavy, and I'm against the proposal of -cross packages because I think that's ugly, but we can talk this over   :-)15:32
zumbilool: sure - I am open for discussion :)15:33
zumbilool: indeed, that was doko plan, he wanted only armel in the archive, but there are other devels that would like to have any-to-any arch, like we had on lenny15:34
loolzumbi: I would like to allow amy-to-any, but I'm not sure the Debian archive is the best place for this15:35
loolIn Ubuntu, I understand only cross-armel will be provided15:35
ogranow who is amy ?15:35
loolon i386 and amd6415:35
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lagrobclark: ping16:36
robclarklag: pong16:36
lagrobclark: Can you explain to me in simple terms what a lost-digit is please?16:37
robclarklag: basically I think it means that sync is lost..  although I'm not yet sure why it happens over and over a gazillion times16:37
lagOh, you see that too?16:39
lagI thought it was just me and my weird monitor16:39
lagrobclark: ?16:43
robclarklag: yeah..16:43
robclark(sorry, multitasking)16:43
lagMythri's patch fixes this issue for me16:44
robclarkyeah, I'm still cleaning up my patch, and then I need to rebase on mythripk's latest16:44
robclarkI'm hoping that helps16:44
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hrw~curse libelf<>libelfg17:07
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chrisccoulsonlool - i'm not sure whether you noticed this already, but the jsid is getting mangled between frames 1 and 2 of https://pastebin.canonical.com/35036/18:19
chrisccoulson#1  0x2a043c86 in js_DefineNativeProperty (cx=0x2a0d6b80, obj=0x2a0f80c0,18:20
chrisccoulson    id=705479548, value=22, getter=0x2a03f695 <block_getProperty>,18:20
chrisccoulson    setter=0x2a03f631 <block_setProperty>, attrs=69, flags=4, shortid=0,18:20
chrisccoulson    propp=0x0, defineHow=0)18:20
chrisccoulson#2  0x2a0440a2 in js_DefineBlockVariable (cx=0x2a0cc37c, obj=0x2a0cc378,18:20
chrisccoulson    id=705523208, index=<value optimized out>)18:20
chrisccoulsonthe id parameters should be the same18:20
chrisccoulsonin fact, all of the arguments passed to js_DefineNativeProperty are wrong18:25
XorAbah lucid x86 dual boot broken :-(18:26
loolchrisccoulson: Oh18:27
loolchrisccoulson: that's very interesting18:27
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jayabharathall - Where can I find daily build images for OMAP4/ubuntu?19:37
rsalvetijayabharath: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook/ports/daily-preinstalled/current19:45
rsalvetithere you can find the omap 3 and omap 4 images19:46
rsalvetijayabharath: http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/ARM/PreinstalledImage if you need instructions to install it19:47
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jayabharathrsalveti: thanks. Do these images work on OMAP4 Blaze platform?19:54
rsalvetiGrueMaster: did you ever test this image on blaze?19:55
rsalvetijayabharath: I'm not sure, but I believe it should work19:55
rsalvetiI just tested/saw it on a normal panda19:56
GrueMasterrsalveti: I don't have a blaze (yet).19:56
jayabharathI see... ogra should have it (my guess)19:56
jayabharathanyway will check it out and go from there19:56
rsalvetijayabharath: yeah, let us know if it worked or not19:57
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Henk___Hallo word de arm-wm8505 ondersteunt21:15
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mpoirierdavidm ?21:58
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cwillu_at_worksegfaults in system-config-printer when poking at a windows network23:10
pcacjrcwillu_at_work: please, report the bug23:22
cwillu_at_workpcacjr, seems to be dups around, I'm still reading through them, and being distracted by other folks :p23:23
pcacjrcwillu_at_work, oh, i see. heh :-)23:23
cwillu_at_workpcacjr, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nss-mdns/+bug/370293 looks pretty similar23:37
ubot2`Ubuntu bug 370293 in nss-mdns (Ubuntu) "system-config-printer.py crashed with SIGSEGV in strlen@plt() (affects: 4) (dups: 1) (heat: 11)" [Medium,New]23:37
cwillu_at_workif I install apport, will I get a decent trace out of it?23:38
pcacjrcwillu_at_work, will take a look. i dunno..23:38
pcacjrjust testing...23:38
cwillu_at_workI'm browsing for the printer, and it dies when I click on a hostname23:39
cwillu_at_workthe hostnames themselves show up in the workgroup tree though23:39
* pcacjr nods23:39
pcacjri'm looking into it right now23:40
cwillu_at_workpcacjr, booting up a fresh card right now in case the card in question was the problem23:49
cwillu_at_workokay, it's not the card23:51
cwillu_at_workmight be privilege related23:52
cwillu_at_workI need to test again, but the first attempt under root worked fine23:52
cwillu_at_work(I'm generally working as an unprivileged user in lp and lpadmin groups)23:52
cwillu_at_workI can provide you with ssh access to the box in question if you want23:52
cwillu_at_worknope, spoke too soon, died on the next machine I clicked on23:53
cwillu_at_workbut that implies that it's not completely deterministic23:53
cwillu_at_workpcacjr, ^23:53
=== fta_ is now known as fta

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