=== JanC_ is now known as JanC
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
=== vorian is now known as stevie
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
=== oubiwann-away is now known as oubiwann
=== ember_ is now known as ember
=== doko_ is now known as doko
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== doko_ is now known as doko
=== kenvandine_ is now known as kenvandine
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch
=== unimix_ is now known as unimix|work
keesmdeslaur, sbeattie: starting!18:36
keesnxvl: hola!18:36
keesokay, so, this week, I'm going to try to flush my rally TODO list, and prepare for blackhat/defcon18:37
keesI'm on community18:37
keesthat's about it from me.  mdeslaur, you're up.18:38
mdeslaurI just published thunderbird, and will spend rest of day preparing laptop for blackhat18:38
mdeslaurthat's about it18:39
sbeattiemdeslaur: it doestakea while for the cement you encase it in to cure.18:39
mdeslaursbeattie: yeah :) let's just say it's a "clean" laptop :)18:39
sbeattieI hope to work through one or more USN publications this week, since I didn't finish it at the sprally.18:40
nxvlmdeslaur: oh, i got a spare HD18:40
nxvlmdeslaur: before DF i just swap disks18:40
keessprally.  *snicker*18:40
nxvlit easier18:41
sbeattieAlso, since I did an appalling job of community effort last week, I'll take over triage while jdstrand is on vacation (and possibly blackhat)18:41
keessbeattie: ah yeah, how is w3m coming?18:41
keessbeattie: every time I tried to do CVE triage last week, mdeslaur had already done it.  :)18:41
sbeattiekees: my schroots are missing debuild for some reason.18:41
mdeslaurkees: stop complaining :)18:42
nxvlbtw, jamie told me he was going to publish FF 3.6.8 this week before BH IIRC18:42
* jdstrand is here, but may drop18:42
sbeattieso I'll dig back into it and see why they weren't installed.18:42
sbeattiethat's about it for me.18:42
sbeattiehave fun at blackhat!18:42
mdeslaursbeattie: I don't have debuild in my schroots18:42
mdeslauroh, nm...yes, they do18:43
keesmdeslaur: usually you do the "sbuild" from outside.18:43
keessbeattie: ^^18:43
keesmdeslaur: I wasn't complaining.  :)18:43
keessbeattie: was umt not working after an "mk-sbuild"?18:43
sbeattiekees: um, dunno, then, umt build ad build-orig were failing complaining about it.18:43
keessbeattie: hunh.  well, we can certain help debug.  :)  just let us know where we can help.18:44
sbeattiekees: sure thing.18:44
jdstrandshall I go while my connection is still here?18:44
* sbeattie is also still recovering a little from my laptop drive swap.18:45
sbeattiejdstrand: all yours.18:45
jdstrandfirst off, sorry for being late18:45
jdstrandthis week I am at blackhat18:45
jdstrandand on triage18:45
jdstrandI'm technically on holiday today and tomorrow, but did manage to publish the firefox update today18:46
* kees hugs jdstrand18:46
jdstrandother than that, that's it18:46
* jdstrand hugs kees back :)18:46
sbeattiejdstrand: as I said, I'll cover triage for you.18:47
jdstrandoh, I missed that18:47
jdstrandsbeattie: rockin' :)18:47
* jdstrand hugs sbeattie :)18:47
sbeattiejdstrand: enjoy your days off!18:47
jdstrandthanks :)18:48
keesjdstrand: have fun!  :)18:48
keesokay, any other business for the security team?18:48
=== Ursinha-lunch is now known as Ursinha
Riddell** Kubuntu Meeting in a minute in #ubuntu-meeting19:59
padamshey hey20:00
* apachelogger swiftly needs to swap his system fonts20:00
Riddellneversfelde, apachelogger, rgreening, ScottK: council ping20:01
apacheloggercouncil pong20:01
Riddellgood evening friends20:01
Riddellanyone here for membership?20:01
* Quintasan want kubuntu-dev, but after Neon is working20:02
j-bare there rules somewhere for those kinds of meeting?20:02
Riddellkubuntu-dev needs talking to kubuntu-dev people, not so much a general meeting20:02
shadeslayerwe need to get bzr-svn working before that ( for kdelibs )20:02
shadeslayerQuintasan: oh oh btw search for bzr-fastimport20:03
shadeslayerthat might help us20:03
apacheloggerQuintasan: just get in touch with someone from kubuntu-dev when you are ready20:03
Riddellj-b: we chat on the topics on the agenda and hopefully come to a conclusion (we can get the council to vote in cases of geniune split opinions)20:03
cwickertRiddell: I guess I am, but I haven't completed all the necessary steps yet20:03
Riddellcwickert: let us know if you manage that before the end of the meeting then :)20:03
Riddellfirst item is KDE PIM20:03
shadeslayermy precious...20:04
Riddellat Akademy the PIM developers had mixed responses when I asked20:04
ScottKRiddell: I think it's clear we should stay with 4.4 for Maverick.20:04
Riddellabout whether we should ship 4.4 or 4.520:04
Riddellby the end of the week it become clearer that 4.4 would be the sensible thing to do20:04
padamscwickert: tell them about fedora 14 :)20:04
Riddellwhat's happening in fedora 14?20:04
cwickertFedora will probably ship 4.4 too20:05
apacheloggerare they merging with suse? :O20:05
Riddellthe argument against 4.4 is that it's unmaintained20:05
cwickertwhich is a strong argument IMHO20:05
Riddellbut if it works that's not a problem, and I think the delayed startup for akonadi problems we had in 4.4.2 have gone as far as I can tell20:05
shadeslayerRiddell: btw im trying out the beta 1 packages, but they work fine for me, i wont say anything else....20:05
ScottKRiddell: We're stuck with maintaining it for Lucid for 3 years, so having it in Maverick doesn't make it worse.20:05
rgreeningKDE PIM + Kmail2 + Akonadi == FAIL for me20:06
apacheloggerScottK is absolutely right20:06
RiddellI've already updated the kde-l10n packages to use translations from PIM 4.420:06
shadeslayermaybe beta 2 will bring joy to the world?20:06
Riddellapachelogger: is he ever wrong?20:06
apacheloggerdidn't say that ^^20:06
ScottKshadeslayer: It can do it for Maverick +1 then.20:06
jtechidnasorry, power outage20:07
Riddellnow I suspect there are issues in our kdepim packages that should be fixed anyway20:07
ScottKI think it would be great if someone provides PPA packages for testing, but there's no indication it is or will be ready for production use.20:07
=== jtechidna is now known as JontheEchidna
shadeslayerScottK: but if we release kde 4.5.1 with maverick, why not new kdepim ?20:07
Riddellkleopatra and use of gnupg are things I'd like to have reviewed20:07
ScottKshadeslayer: Because it's not ready.20:07
shadeslayerScottK: packages are already in kubuntu experimental ppa20:07
cwickertScottK: how do you define "ready"?20:08
Quintasanshadeslayer: we should make sure that anyone interested will know where they are20:08
apacheloggerus not being the first to loose their head over it20:08
ScottKcwickert: Usable, stable, won't eat my data.20:08
apacheloggerwe had KDE 4.0 and got a beating, even though it was not even default20:09
shadeslayerQuintasan: the site would be a BAD idea :P20:09
Riddellable to safely upgrade from previous versions is an important requirement for "ready"20:09
ScottKPIM is the one area where data loss hurts users the most and we should be conservative about it.20:09
apacheloggerthen we had KDEPim 4.4 as one of the first and got a beating for kaddressbook and akonadi20:09
ScottKRiddell: Yes.  That too.20:09
shadeslayerRiddell: afaik no one had failures on lucid and i tested them out on maverick20:09
Quintasanwell, fresh install here, works just fine20:09
cwickertScottK: AFAIK it's not eating data anymore. we are running a many test systems with real life data20:09
JontheEchidnaupstream is not defining it as "ready" as it is: http://simplest-image-hosting.net/jpg-0-plasma-desktophx987920:09
Riddellshadeslayer: rgreening just said he had fail20:09
shadeslayerrgreening: did the upgrades fail, or the app itself?20:10
ScottKcwickert: I think when it can meet the normal KDE release schedule that'll be a sign it's mature enough to consider.20:10
rgreeningFor me, on lucid that is, Kmail2 and Akonadi == 100% CPU and I cannot delete mail from my GMAIL IMAP.20:10
rgreeningit takes forever to load the message and cant delete. it's unusable20:11
JontheEchidnafor me, kmail2 + akonadi == akonadi-mysql taking up 100 MiB of memory while idle20:11
ScottKIf it's too scary for Fedora, I'm reasonaly certain it's too scary for us.20:11
JontheEchidnaSo it looks like pieces are already set in place for keeping 4.4 for maverick. l10n is taken care of and 4.5 is in the experimental PPA. I think we should motion to keep it this way20:12
apacheloggeralso, if a release would happen I suppose itwould be jolly close to our own release20:12
ScottKWith 4.4, Kmail is usable on my netbook with 1GB RAM and an Atom CPU.  It doesn't sound like that would work at all well with Kmail2.20:12
Riddellapachelogger: yes, since we're releasing at the start of october not the end20:12
apacheloggerand history tells that this is never a good thing20:12
cwickertScottK: the decision for Fedora is not set in stone yet20:12
cwickertScottK: but Fedora has one month more until they release then Kubuntu20:13
apacheloggerI think we agree that KDEPim 4.5 is no option for 10.1020:13
apacheloggershould be revisited at next UDS if possible though20:13
ScottKapachelogger: I think so.20:13
apacheloggerto lay out a migration plan20:13
ScottKI think we should definitely plan on it for 11.04 though.20:13
* padams agrees20:14
shadeslayerapachelogger: +120:14
rgreeningI agree. it's way too critical to foo someones mail20:14
Riddellpadams, cwickert: will kolabsys be wanting to review our packages in some way?  and are there KDE PIM 3.5 packages we should care about?20:14
cwickertRiddell: yes there are packages20:14
Riddell..but should we care? :)20:14
ScottKRiddell: I think we should get the Kolab 3.5 packages in.20:15
cwickertRiddell: I think you should. I ready suggested to have the e3.5 client as an alternative a while back20:15
padamsthat's up to you… we can help provide 3.5 packages and we can help with the 4,5 effort because we would like to see 4,5 packages for lucid20:15
QuintasanIf someone cares for 4.5 we have packages, right? So we can just tell them it can eat data but if users want to test it then go ahead20:15
ScottKpadams: I think it we are interested in providing 4.5 packages for people that want them via PPA, just not in the main repository.20:16
ScottKIt would be good both for testing and for early adopters.20:17
padamsScottK: fine with me20:17
cwickertScottK: how about 3.5 then?20:17
Quintasanshadeslayer: you were the one doing 4.5beta1 packages?20:17
cwickertshould this be in the main repo or also in a ppa?20:17
ScottKI think 3.5 in Lucid is fine.20:17
shadeslayerQuintasan: yep20:17
shadeslayertheyre in experimental ppa20:17
ScottKcwickert: We just need to make sure they are correctly "branded" as Kolab kdepim so people don't get confused.20:18
padamsScottK: or kdepim-ultra-old?20:18
cwickertScottK: so how would you do that?20:18
ScottKIn the package name and description.20:19
ScottKIt should be easy enough, we just need to remember to do it.20:19
RiddellScottK: in Lucid?  as in backports?20:19
ScottKRiddell: Maverick and then Lucid Backports, yes.20:20
ScottKRiddell: I think the key is to position them as part of the Kolab system, not part of the KDE system.  Then users won't be confused.20:20
Riddellpadams, cwickert: how can we get 3.5 packaging moving?20:20
cwickertRiddell: good question, I'm open to suggestions cause I don't know the (k)ubuntu workflow20:21
ScottKRiddell: I think for the purposes of the meeting, we can agree we want them and I'll chat with cwickert later and sort out the details.20:22
Riddellcwickert: I'd suggest turning up on #kubuntu-devel and asking for people to review the packaging you have20:22
cwickertRiddell: ok20:22
* Quintasan wants to try that20:22
ScottKI think we've agreed on the following for Maverick and KDEpim: KDE 4.4 for Maverick, Kmail2/4.5 in PPA, and KDE3.5 PIM packages for Kolab.20:22
ScottKAny objections to that?20:23
apacheloggercwickert: you make a package, show it to us, we will tell you that it is crap, you come with a new package, we will love it and then one who has appropriate permissions will upload ;)20:23
apacheloggersomething like that in any case ;)20:23
JontheEchidnaScottK: none here20:23
apacheloggerno objections20:23
Riddellack on that20:23
Riddellas I said before we should look at the gnupg and kleopatra packaging for 4.420:24
cwickertapachelogger: sounds good, but can we please skip the first step? ;)20:24
Riddellpadams, cwickert: at the distro sprint last week the server team people suggested you turn up at a server team meeting sometime soon to look at the kolab server bits20:24
apacheloggercwickert: awww, less fun for us :P ... but I suppose we can live without it ;)20:24
Riddelltheir meetings happen on Tuesdays, not sure the time20:24
ScottKI'll help them out with that.20:25
cwickertapachelogger: you could have a look at http://files.kolab.org/apt/ubuntu/dists/karmic/kdepim-e35-extras/source/20:25
RiddellAugust 12th20:25
Riddellthat's the date to remember :)20:25
Riddellgroovy, moving on?20:25
apacheloggeruhh, the return of arts ^^20:25
cwickertRiddell: please drop us a note when you are going to talk about kolab20:25
ScottKcwickert: Will do.  I'd like to get the cyrus patches in first.20:26
shadeslayerbtw a patch in kdepim beta 1 needs fixing20:26
shadeslayerif anyone is up for it :D20:27
ScottKcwickert: We've totally removed arts from the distro.  It would be super helpful if we could work around needing it again.20:27
* apachelogger assigns the task to shadeslayer20:27
padamsScottK: patches coming your way soon20:27
shadeslayerapachelogger: heh :P20:27
apacheloggeroh, no arts :(20:27
shadeslayerapachelogger: i fail at refreshing patches20:27
cwickertScottK: yeah, lets try to avoid arts...20:27
apacheloggershadeslayer: something to learn then20:27
apacheloggershall we move on?20:27
RiddellVideo Player?20:27
* apachelogger pokes j-b20:27
* j-b pokes back20:28
RiddellKaffeine doesn't seem ready20:28
Riddellpersonally I'd like to avoid adding another media framework20:28
Riddelland I'd like to have a nice KDE UI20:28
Riddellwhich leads back to Dragon20:28
QuintasanI would vote in favour in SMPlayer but that seems impossible due to CD space and licensing reasons, I'm I right?20:28
apacheloggerQuintasan: also it looks like ewww :P20:28
apacheloggerI propose vlc20:29
JontheEchidnaQuintasan: licensing has made any mplayer-based solution impossible20:29
apacheloggerthe nice people at amarok are pushing phonon-vlc and call it the next-gen phonon backend20:29
shadeslayeralso like i pointed out earlier, anyone migrating from windows will have a easy time with it20:29
RiddellSMPlayer has a semi-KDEish UI but it's not great and not dl loading avcodecs means it's out20:29
apacheloggerso, if they are right we will end up with libvlc in the long run20:29
Quintasanapachelogger: SMPlayer look eww? If you didn't even bother to look at the options then :320:29
ScottKWhat's compelling enough about VLC to make it worth switching now and maybe switching to Kaffeine in 11.04?20:29
apacheloggerI am quite sure j-b can reason why vlc would be a good choice20:30
Riddellphonon-vlc didn't work too well when I tried it, although I see a new release has just been made20:30
shadeslayerScottK: id rather bangarang than kaffeine20:30
j-bwell, vlc might be a good choice, because it is plugin-based, as GStreamer, which makes it easier to distribute in parts20:30
ScottKshadeslayer: Kaffeine/some other choice20:30
j-bbut I guess CD size is annoying for you.20:31
Riddellvlc's player UI is not pretty at all in my opinion20:31
* apachelogger agrees with Riddell20:31
apacheloggerOTOH millions of windows users use it20:31
Riddellit also needs some packaging and MIR love to get vlc into main and it's getting a bit late in the cycle for that20:31
apacheloggerso vlc could very well be a selling reason20:31
Quintasanj-b: I have one question about the VLC, Are the problems with mkv files crashing VLC solved?20:32
j-bQuintasan: yes.20:32
j-bQuintasan: crashing wasn't a vlc problem but a libebml one, that is fixed in libebml 1.0.x20:32
apacheloggerRiddell: how about dragon for 10.10 and vlc as prospective target for 11.04?20:32
Riddellthe advantages of Kaffeine are DVB support and subtitles, j-b how does vlc manage with those?20:32
apacheloggersupposedly phonon-vlc is also more mature by then20:32
j-bSorry to be rude guys, but what is so difficult in actually coding a correct phonon player?20:33
shadeslayeralso phonon-vlc currently crashes for me on maverick20:33
j-bshadeslayer: stacktraces are welcome.20:33
shadeslayerso whenever i quit a app, i get that foobar app has crashed20:33
shadeslayerj-b: on bugs.kde.org ?20:33
Riddellj-b: dragon is a correct phonon player, for some reason kaffeine isn't using phonon which is what leads it to have problems20:33
apacheloggerj-b: it is more the maintaining than the coding IMHO20:33
apacheloggerdragon was also maintainerless for quite some time20:34
j-bshadeslayer: I believe I fixed that bug in latest release, but yes, bugs.kde.org20:34
QuintasanRiddell: I do not think subtitles are a problem, I have many Matroska files (with SSA subs inside), and VLC had problems with them, but now it is all fixed20:34
QuintasanProblems == crashing20:34
shadeslayerj-b: ok which is the latest release again ? :D20:34
j-bshadeslayer: we have 2 students working on improving phonon and phonon-vlc20:34
Riddellj-b: does vlc talk to pulseaudio properly?20:34
j-bshadeslayer: 0.2.020:34
txwikingerwhy are we planning to change every release?20:34
j-bRiddell: properly, as in "as well as gstreamer", no. But better than mplayer, yes.20:34
shadeslayerseems that needs packaging20:34
Quintasantxwikinger: because it seems that Dragon Player was ultimate failure?20:35
j-b21:33 < apachelogger> j-b: it is more the maintaining than the coding IMHO20:35
j-bapachelogger: come on...20:35
Quintasanat least that's what I heard20:35
RiddellDragon Player is fine, nothing failure about it, just a bit limited20:35
* txwikinger thinks it is very confusing for users if the packages change every release20:35
j-bRiddell: DVB, yes. Subs, of course20:35
* apachelogger agrees with txwikinger20:35
* ryanakca agress with txwikinger too20:35
Riddellj-b: I don't suppose there are any plans to make the vlc UI pretty and using oxygen icons?20:36
j-bRiddell: ask what you need, and you will get it.20:36
j-bRiddell: it is as simple as that.20:36
Riddellnow there's service :)20:36
j-boxygen icons, is like 20 LoC20:36
apacheloggermhhh, that is servie a la quassel20:36
* apachelogger lieks that :D20:36
j-bRiddell: seriously, I don't care if VLC gets inside Kubuntu, or not, that is not my choice and I am biaised. But if you need things, just ask.20:37
j-band my opinion, as a KDE user is that you need a proper phonon player20:37
Riddellj-b: which would count out the vlc UI?20:38
j-bRiddell: I don't understand the question, sorry.20:38
Riddellj-b: vlc's UI isn't a phonon player20:39
j-band won't.20:39
Riddelldragon is the only one I know of20:39
apacheloggerthere are a couple of others on qt-apps IIRC20:39
j-bRiddell: Kaffeine? banganrang?20:39
apacheloggernothing terribly awesome though20:39
ScottKIt sounds to me like we ought to stay with Dragon for now and take another look for Maverick +1.20:39
apacheloggeroh yeah, bangarang is also there :D20:39
RiddellKaffeine is hard coded to xine20:39
apacheloggerj-b: kaffeine uses xine directly20:40
Riddellisn't banganrang music focused?20:40
j-bOMG, not xine...20:40
apacheloggerRiddell: no, collection focused if anything20:40
shadeslayerrgreening: no.. its good for video as well20:40
* apachelogger hands j-b a cookie to calm him down ^^20:40
shadeslayerRiddell: ^^20:40
Riddell"Beside all the nice improvements Kaffeine is (again) directly using xine-lib instead of Phonon. " http://kaffeine.kde.org/20:40
Riddellwhich is why it doesn't work with my USB headphones20:41
apacheloggerSince I agree with txwikinger who is not amused about changing apps over and over again.20:41
apacheloggerI say we stay with dragon for 10.1020:41
apacheloggerand look at this issue proper20:41
kstarSorry to butt into a meeting with an offtopic message, but just wanted to thank all of you for making such a rocking distribution.20:41
apacheloggerto either improve dragon towards become awsomest20:41
shadeslayerwell.. i think vlc for maverick+120:41
apacheloggeror consider vlc for 11.0420:41
j-bapachelogger: recoding an actual phonon player isn't difficult, IMVHO20:42
ScottKAny objections to Dragon for Maverick and consider it again at UDS for Maverick +1.20:42
RiddellI think that's agreed20:42
ScottKShall we move on then?20:42
Riddellmessage indicator is the next topic20:42
kstarVLC is a good thing because Windows folk use VLC.20:42
apacheloggerj-b: the only time I ever looked at phonon was to play a video for a hoax application :)20:43
j-bMac people the same :)20:43
apacheloggermaybe I should look at it again20:43
apacheloggerj-b: well, thanks for attending :)20:43
j-bapachelogger: no pb20:43
j-bplease, guys, if you need modifications to VLC or phonon-vlc, just _ask_20:43
macoi thought mac & windows people used whatever was default in their OSes...which definitely isnt vlc20:44
highvoltage<3 VLC! (just had to chime in)20:44
ScottKI think for M-I, the proposal is on by default for Quassel and Kopete, but not Kmail and no systray icons for Quassel or Kopete.20:44
j-bmaco: believe me, linux is the smallest of our OSes20:44
apacheloggermaco: they have tech friends who install VLC along with Firefox20:44
Riddellmessage indicator has had some improvements since we last discussed it and I think we should have it used by default in maverick20:44
apacheloggerwhy is message indiciator not used by upstream?20:44
Riddellwhich upstream?20:45
ScottKapachelogger: All the patches are upstream.20:45
Riddellit is in Quassel and kmail and kopete upstream20:45
apacheloggeractive by default20:45
ScottKSince it's extragear, I don't think it can be active by default for Kmail/Kopete20:46
apacheloggerusing message indicator would be a pretty grave change to how that sort of stuff appears in the KDE workspace isnt it?20:46
Riddellbut the plasmoid itself isn't in because aseigo wants it implementing using the status notifier protocol, trouble is nobody knows how you can squash what MI needs into that protocol20:46
RiddellScottK: agateau and me discussed some ideas for KMail, it probably needs a whole config dialogue page to itself since how you need it to work depends on how you use your e-mail20:47
ScottKapachelogger: We've provided the MI widget by default for a few cycles now.  I don't think some enabling would be a grave change.20:47
ScottKRiddell: Makes sense.  I think that should be Maverick +1.20:47
ScottKNo point in doing all that for Kmail right before we switch to Kmail2.20:47
Riddellalso relevant kwwii said he could probably do a new icon for maverick20:48
apacheloggerbut enabling it changes how kopete/kmail/quassel notifications are displayed?20:48
Riddellthe current star isn't too noticable (although that could be a feature for some people) and it doesn't quite fit in with the new systray icons theme20:48
Riddellapachelogger: by not cluttering your systray20:49
Riddellwhich is a win for me20:49
apacheloggerwell, if upstream likes us to enable it I am all for it20:50
ScottKapachelogger: It doesn't affect notifications, only systray.20:50
apacheloggerScottK: so you still get notifications?20:50
Riddellyes the VisualNotifications wouldn't change20:50
QuintasanThat quite defeats the point of MI IMO20:50
ScottKQuintasan: You can turn them off if you want.20:50
ScottK(at least for quassel)20:50
apacheloggerahhhh, but the tray icons would be gone?20:51
Riddellyes, pointless tray icons won't be missed by me20:51
ScottKYou could put it back if you wanted.20:51
macooh a less cluttered tray? i like that20:51
apacheloggerisnt that what the tray redesign + kstatusnotifier is supposed to archive? :P20:51
apacheloggerwell, I think we should go with it and advertise it20:52
Riddelland make sure upstreams are aware and don't object of course20:52
apacheloggerif people start complaingin soon enough we should revert though20:52
apacheloggerfor the sake of not angering the users with every release20:53
ScottKThere's a checkbox to re-enable the systray icon for kopete too.20:53
Riddellnext item?20:53
RiddellUbuntu font20:53
ScottKWhat's to discuss about it?20:53
Riddellwhether we want it on by default20:54
Riddellalthough the Ubuntu Desktop team don't know it yet, they're going to have it included at some point soonish20:54
RiddellI think all kubuntu members have access to try it out20:54
apacheloggerThe font handles umlauts quite terribly20:54
* ScottK thought the Ubuntu font was the font for the Ubuntu logo.20:54
apacheloggerI pointed out some of the immediately visible things earlier in kubuntu-devel20:55
* ScottK didn't realize it was something for the actual system.20:55
Quintasanand it looks quite awful on my 23" display20:55
Quintasantoo thin20:55
RiddellScottK: it's for the whole system font20:55
ScottKRiddell: Yes.  I've just learned this.20:55
Riddellit takes a little getting used to but I find it makes my desktop more interesting without being distracting20:55
JontheEchidnaI enjoy the font as well20:55
Riddellnuno also likes it, not as much as liberation but more so than dejavu20:55
apacheloggerdejavu is utter crap I may say so20:55
ScottKDo currently match upstream on font or are we already different?20:56
apacheloggerI am also more for liberation20:56
JontheEchidnaapachelogger: they are taking feedback about the font, so I would suggest that you report the umlaut issues as a bug20:56
Riddellupstream has no font, it's an X issue20:56
shadeslayeroh font20:56
shadeslayerubuntu font ++20:56
shadeslayeralong with autohinting20:56
apacheloggeralso liberation is more established and since the font is only supposed to go into public beta on 8th august or so...20:56
ScottKIt sounds to me like it's premature to make a decision.20:56
apacheloggerScottK: upstream == nuno == liberation | droid20:57
txwikingerisn't it quite simple to change the default font anyway?20:57
apacheloggerwith which I agreee entirely20:57
Quintasanapachelogger: +120:57
RiddellI think it would be a nice bit of cross-Ubuntu-variant cohesiveness to use it20:57
ScottKRiddell: I'd propose we revist after it's public.20:57
* apachelogger would postpone to UDS actually20:57
apacheloggerdiscuss this at larger scale20:58
QuintasanDoes anyone know how the asian symbols look in Dejavu fonts?20:58
JontheEchidnaUDS is after release though20:58
JontheEchidnaway too late20:58
Riddellit is public now, you can share it as you want so long as it's obvious it's a beta, it just isn't freely licenced yet20:58
ScottKor not20:58
ScottKRiddell: I guess that's the other thing, I'm not comfortable with deciding for it until the license terms are finalized.20:58
apacheloggerI am highly against changing the default font this late....20:59
apacheloggerand until it is public it is getting even later...20:59
QuintasanOne question, did anyone actually complain about the font being bad?20:59
RiddellScottK: as a free software zealot I'm not going to touch it if the licence turns out not to be free, but I don't think that'll happen20:59
JontheEchidnathis late? we're not even at the third alpha, and we were considering changing font at RC last cycle20:59
apacheloggerund then it will be too late when suddently it turns out that something is horribly broken...20:59
ScottKRiddell: I don't think it will happen either, but I think we should accept it after, not before.20:59
* Mamarok doesn't liek the Ubuntu font21:00
ScottKConsidering it's easy to switch defaults, I'm not overly concerned about deciding this up to beta.21:00
apacheloggerJontheEchidna: that font was not beta though21:00
apacheloggerin fact that font was around for years21:00
JontheEchidnaand it won't be once its released21:00
JontheEchidnaand defaults are easy enough to change if there is a problem, as Scott noted21:01
RiddellScottK: it's mostly a problem for docs, not sure when they would want a decision by21:01
Riddella new version with bold is expected this week21:01
Riddelllet's check with our docs people when they need a decision and make sure we do decide before then21:02
ScottKUser interface freeze and beta freeze are the same day21:03
ScottKSo I think it's fine to wait.21:03
apacheloggerwould we be using it for anything but menus?21:03
apacheloggerlike actual text? (say browser)21:04
Riddellapachelogger: fiddly to only make it apply to menus, I'd expect everything but fixed width fonts21:04
Riddell(because that won't be done in time as I understand it)21:04
RiddellI also had "rekonq defaults" on the agenda, although it seems less important given we don't know if rekonq will be supported for Qt 4.7/KDE Platform 4.521:05
* apachelogger says -1 then because he finds the font very horrible for floating text - besides currently being essentially broken with umlauts21:05
RiddellI need to contact the rekonq developers and get an answer on that21:05
shadeslayerRiddell: a poke on rekonq@kde.org? :)21:06
Riddellthe agenda item was about removing all bookmarks from rekonq by default, settings homepage to google.com and setting default webpages to21:06
Riddell+        <default>http://www.google.com,http://userbase.kde.org,http://www.kubuntu.org,http://www.kubuntuforums.net</default>21:06
Riddellit's not ideal to hard code in google.com, would be better to use searchproviders somehow but I don't think that's possible21:07
ScottKRiddell: I think it's pretty clear rekonq is unsuitable for default.21:08
ScottKI'd thought we were going to discuss switching away from it.21:08
* Quintasan votes in favour of Konq and option of installing kpart-webkit21:08
ScottKArora is better, but still crashy on flash stuff.21:09
txwikingerkonq is really lacking a lot of important features21:09
RiddellScottK: rekonq 0.5 is far too crashy but 1.0 is due out before maverick and maybe they'll support qt 4.7 with that, needs asking anyway21:09
ScottKRiddell: When is it due?21:09
apacheloggerI would like to bring up trying konq + kwebkitpart for one release since it performs a lot better in the reliability21:10
ScottKWe're running out of time "before Maverick".21:10
RiddellScottK: they have said they can do it to our schedule21:10
txwikingerIs konq actively developed?21:10
Riddelltxwikinger: yes, khtml has improved in 4.5 to some extent21:10
ScottKRiddell: The fact that I can't currently file a bug that won't get marked invalid immediately I find highly discouraging.21:10
txwikingerRiddell: and the GUI?21:10
shadeslayertxwikinger: yep, i was told to ditch development on rekonq and work on konqueror on #kde-devel one day :P21:10
apacheloggerkthml just doesnt have nokia and apple and google in its back :)21:11
* txwikinger wants tabs that can be re-ordered21:11
ScottKRiddell: I think we should switch back to Konqueror now and consider Rekonq when there is something that might be suitable.21:12
apacheloggerwell, I am for trying konq+kwebkitpart but really think we should be using firefox to begin with and other than that does not care21:12
RiddellScottK: I'm happy with that21:12
ScottKKonqueror + khtml is a better choice than Rekonq right now.21:12
ScottKapachelogger: We'd need to figure out how to deal with options that don't work with webkit if we shipped that.21:12
* txwikinger is for kwebkit whatever browser it will be21:13
ScottKtxwikinger: The problem is that we don't have any that are at all end user suitable at the moment.21:13
apacheloggerScottK: I do not think they are that many21:13
apacheloggeroh oh oh, someone please make sure that with whatever browser we use that java works21:13
ScottKapachelogger: OK.  We'd need to figure that out before switching to it.21:13
macotxwikinger: mmm wait isnt webkit not-screenreader-friendly?21:14
apacheloggerScottK: I am suggesting to try it for a pre-release and see how it goes21:14
apacheloggerso that we do not look into hiding stuff that doesnt need to be hidden because we do not ship with the webkitpart anyway21:14
macotxwikinger: nevermind, that doesnt matter on kubuntu. nothing qt is screenreader friendly to start with21:15
* txwikinger needs webkit for the debugging stuff21:15
Riddellif someone wants to review konq+webkitkde and work out how stable it is and what breaks in the config UI that would be great21:16
ScottKtxwikinger: Yes, but you can install stuff.  That's not a reason to make it default.21:16
txwikingerScottK: Sure I can install firefox :p21:17
ScottKtxwikinger: That won't get you webkit.21:17
txwikingerbut firebug21:17
Riddellany other business?21:18
ScottKAny objections to Konqueor +khtml for now and Konqueror + webkit or Rekonq once we have a solid proposal and something that is tested to work reliably?21:18
ScottKRiddell: Is ^^^^ what you think we decided?21:18
RiddellScottK: yes21:18
apacheloggerScottK: looks like the settings are written all and entirely in cpp21:18
apacheloggergiven a list of features that do not work with the webkitpart one can easily disable that stuff21:19
ScottKapachelogger: All we need is someone to research it, provide a patch, and test.21:19
apacheloggerI think research is the biggest problem there ^^21:20
ScottKshadeslayer is a rekonq fanboi, so we need another minion for that.21:20
shadeslayerif someone kares enough to train me :P21:20
* txwikinger tests out konq+webkit21:21
ScottKRiddell: I suspect we can close the meeting.21:21
Riddellyes, 4.5 final tagging due tomorrow or next day21:21
* apachelogger hands everyone a cookie21:21
Riddellso ninjas and testers needed after that21:21
shadeslayerahem... 4.5 rc was tagged21:21
Riddellthanks all21:21
j-bNow that your meeting is over, can anyone explain me why Kaffeine doesn't use phonon anymore?21:21
Riddellj-b: let's move to #kubuntu-devel21:22
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel

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