RAOFArgh.  I hate you, git, and the way “git checkout master” doesn't necessarily get you the damn master branch.00:49
Sarvatti didn't realize just how bad this multiple gpu situation has gotten until i just started shopping for a new laptop.. thanks to the new intels pretty much every laptop over $500 has switchable (or optimus) graphics now. optimus is a nightmare :(02:11
Sarvatteverything with a newer nvidia discreet gpu and intel cpu having optimus, and not being able to explicitly pick the nvidia gpu and all02:14
johanbrSarvatt, get something with an ATI?02:15
Sarvattyeah trying to find a decent 13.3" with ati hybrid thats not 2k+, it's a shame those nice asus' only have nvidia02:17
Sarvatteither that or go back a generation before optimus02:17
Sarvattbut i mean it's going to be a horrible linux experience for people with nvidia now02:18
RAOFHow does that work with the binary drivers?  I mean, apart from the intel GPU not working.02:19
Sarvattit doesnt from what i can see02:19
Sarvattyou only get the intel02:19
RAOFvgaswitcheroo won't work either, will it, because optimus is some sort of crazy abomination where the nvidia GPU renders to the scanout buffer of the intel GPU, right?02:21
johanbrapparently it depends on the laptop: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2291702#post229170202:25
Sarvatttoo bad the blob and intel cant coexist :)02:28
Sarvatthmm new blobrelease for opengl 4.102:30
Sarvattwonder if it snuck in xserver 1.9 support02:32
RAOFGah.  What has decided to eat all my goats?05:11
RAOFAnd by “goats” I of course mean “memory”05:12
RAOFAh, no.  Actually I mean I/O.05:15
RAOFThe unholy trinity strikes again - ubuntuone-syncdaemon, dpkg, and btrfs.05:15
RAOFWho wants to buy me an Apple Magic Trackpad so I can test multitouch? :)06:03
RAOFHow's the week treated you?06:25
brycehgreat, been on vacation at the beach the past week06:25
RAOFSounds like fun.06:26
brycehthe house we were in had wireless but the password they gave didn't work, so yeah06:26
* RAOF is sitting in front of his fan-forced gas fireplace; the office is too cold!06:26
brycehso instead mostly I played with my son and fiddled with learning how to code cairo animation stuff06:26
brycehRAOF, how things going for you?06:28
RAOFI spent some of my flight home from Prague working out how to do a proof of concept gobject-introspection-sharp binder.06:28
RAOFLooking up, now.06:28
RAOFI've not only woken up after the long, long flight, I think I've also beaten the low-grade ubuflu.06:29
brycehoh yeah sounds like that was going around06:29
RAOFI don't think I've had it like others have had it.06:30
brycehthat's good06:30
brycehbeing the X guy sucks in that everyone's handing you their germy laptops to fix06:30
RAOFI didn't get _too_ many laptops :)06:31
brycehspeaking of which... did many people hand you their germy laptops?  :-)06:31
brycehhaha, well it's all-hands you have to really watch out for.  uds is pretty intense too sometimes06:32
RAOFWe can tag-team next UDS.06:33
brycehactually I've been doing a lot of thinking about how to restructure things to work better for us06:33
RAOFHm.  Do tell!06:34
brycehdid some X strategery thinkin06:34
brycehwell, sounds like we're going to have some ample X resources in place for NN, so was thinking maybe this was our chance to really get organized and on top of everything06:34
brycehbut to do that we'd need to be more focused in *what* we do06:35
brycehI think in the past there's been so much to do that the work ends up being much more 'reactive'06:35
RAOFRight.  There's lots of firefighting.06:35
brycehhowever there's really no reason it *has* to be that way06:35
RAOFOr do you mean more “if we contribute more upstream we get to have more influence on what happens, meaning we get a better ability to plan”?06:36
brycehwe just need to narrow down a few points of focus and set some boundaries so we can keep the firefighting at arm's length and focus on some specific projects to make things more solid06:36
brycehwell, I don't think it's a matter of *contributing* to upstream so much as *throttling* it06:37
RAOFI think collaborating with the DX team we could really get some useful focus.06:37
brycehI think a lot of our bug problems occur because we allow in upstream code that's been heavily changed without sufficient testing06:38
brycehwhich is something we *could* switch around and do differently06:38
brycehand on a completely other angle06:38
brycehas I've mentioned before I think we get a lot of bug reports that really are more of the type "help me, fix my computer", rather than, "Here is a way to make X better for Ubuntu"06:39
brycehso I think we need to find ways to better distinguish the latter from the former, and focus exclusively on the latter06:39
brycehand another angle...06:41
brycehbeen thinking about different ways of organizing workloads.  I can think of several schemes:06:41
RAOFI know the QA team has a pretty serious collection of hardware which we could potentially harness for the purposes of getting testing.06:41
bryceh1.  One option is to handle things generally, setting priorities on the fly as work comes in06:42
bryceh2.  Divide things by drivers, each of us taking one or two drivers to focus on06:42
bryceh3.  Divide things by work *type*, e.g. packaging vs. bug triage/upstreaming vs. bug fixing vs. special projects06:42
bryceh4.  Divide things by hardware type, e.g. 'tier-one hardware', 'tier-two hardware', ...  06:43
RAOF5. Have a frontend/backend type split, if we've got access to enough people.06:43
brycehanyway, a topic for discussion at next UDS06:44
RAOFWhen we'll 06:44
RAOF(hopefull) know the sort of resources we have a available!06:44
brycehor maybe we could have a Ubuntu-X online summit prior to that, just to get organized ahead of time06:44
brycehon another angle...  I'd like to push during NN to pull in some more community members into participation.  grow ubuntu-x active members06:44
brycehcommunity members have been key for getting stuff done with ubuntu-x in the past, and will continue to be so06:45
brycehon another angle...  more coordination with debian06:45
RAOFI think we're doing reasonably well with that this cycle.06:45
RAOFYay!  I didn't glue my hands to my face with that xserver build!06:46
brycehthat's good to hear, I've been pretty piss poor at that 06:46
RAOFIt may have taken more than one build to get right, though ;)06:46
brycehRAOF, also the launchpad team has some nifty workflow tracking systems that I think would be interesting to try applying to the ubuntu-x team06:47
brycehit's particularly useful for getting the team to focus on *fewer* projects, and to do those well06:47
RAOFI'm interested to hear them; jml is the most organised person I know.06:47
RAOF(Even moreso than *you*!)06:48
RAOFjml talked about “kanban” when I breakfasted with him in Prague; that seemed interesting.06:50
RAOFOh, man.  btrfs, I hate you.06:53
RAOFAh, no.  'twas mutter!06:58
brycehthe kanban the launchpad team's using is good for long-cycle project work06:59
brycehwhat I've been mulling is something a bit more tightly hooked in with launchpad, so it'll work for the types of shorter-cycle work we tend to do on X07:00
brycehwhich I think could take the place of some of the various reports and lists I've been generating, and give it a better workflowy feel07:01
bryceheasier to show it than explain it :-)07:01
RAOFSomething like a list we can work through and move things into the ‘finished’ bucket?07:02
brycehof course, I have to code it before that :-)07:02
brycehactually there'd be multiple buckets07:02
brycehso you'd work on something and then drag it to 'finished', 'upstreamed', 'needs-qa-testing' or so on07:02
brycehso we avoid just having a list of bugs assigned to ourselves with no context or status07:03
RAOFWe instead have a couple of lists of bugs, and the list they're in indicates what sort of action we need to take on them.07:04
brycehI also want to make it publically visible so when people come to ask for us to do something we can point them to something that shows exactly how full our plate is and gives them a 'Now Serving #' ticket 07:04
brycehright, one set for triaging, one set for forwarding upstream, one for analyzing/fixing, one for backporting patches, etc.07:05
RAOFSo we can start on a list that we have an appropriate energy level for.07:05
brycehperhaps also integrate packaging work and blueprint tasks in there, so we can track everything in one tool07:05
brycehperhaps that can also generate our weekly status reports for us ;-)07:06
RAOFMoar automation!  Moar!07:06
brycehwell, that's getting a bit blue sky...  the dragging stuff into buckets is coded and works, and I think would help in the NN timeframe07:06
brycehwell, mostly coded07:07
brycehit's cool though, all Cairo graphics stuff, no web browser needed07:07
RAOFCairo is fun.07:08
brycehsome of the differences from how inkscape works has required a bit of re-education07:08
brycehwaaay better than CSS fiddling though07:09
brycehand no javascript in sight :-)07:09
RAOFI found postscript surprisingly fun, to :)07:10
brycehreverse polish notation goodness07:11
RAOFStack based languages FTW!07:11
brycehRAOF, btw do you have some thoughts on how we could improve how we do X maintenance in NN?07:20
RAOFI think that one of the things we should do is ask the DX team what they're hitting in mesa & X, and put some work into that.07:22
RAOFI think we should have enough resources to be able to spend some time looking at what DX are doing, and what they'd like to work, and making it happen.07:22
* bryceh nods07:23
brycehthat's a good point... internal customer needs07:23
RAOFYeah.  We have them :)07:23
brycehI've thought we could be better tied in with the technical support team as well07:24
RAOFAnd the QA team, I think, too.07:24
brycehyeah, although I don't think we have an X person on the QA team side07:24
RAOFFor example, did you know that unity has hand-written shaders because the mesa GLSL compiler produces broken shaders for what they wanted to do?07:24
brycehwe did do pretty well with Ara for testing though in lucid07:25
RAOFOh, and unity just doesn't run at all on (at least) r600?07:25
brycehis that just hw acceleration lackage?07:26
RAOFI'm not sure.  It should be falling back more gracefully than it is, though.07:27
brycehthis gets back to my thinking about setting boundaries... i.e. we support thus and such feature on this and thass hardware07:27
brycehand where there is a discrepancy between what we *think* we support and what we actually deliver, that becomes priority areas for us07:27
RAOFRight.  RH basically wants a mesa sufficient to run gnome-shell, and prioritises that; once we've got the X resources, we should do something similar for unity.07:28
RAOFI think it might also be nice to be able to push code at the suite of QA machines, wherever they are, before it goes into the main archive.07:30
brycehwe've GOT to get something in place for automated testing of the X stack, even if it only has a slight coverage07:31
RAOFI wonder if the kernel would be interested in that too, actually.07:31
brycehthat's something I've been picking at for years but never really hammered into useful shape07:31
RAOFI'm pretty sure that QA *does* have a bunch of automated testing; it's just opaque to me.07:31
brycehtrue, there's enough overlap here we could probably collaborate on it07:32
brycehyeah I've described to them the types of reports that would be useful to me07:32
RAOFAt the rally someone was asking about what numbers to look for in the X memory stats to indicate a leak, for example.07:33
brycehlike a performance chart run bi-weekly07:33
Dr_JakobIf it is suposed to do any good you need to run it continiously...07:34
Dr_JakobA lot of stuff can go into mesa in two weeks.07:34
* RAOF always gets twice- & bi- confused :)07:35
brycehDr_Jakob, not a chart of upstream git commits, but rather what is in Ubuntu07:35
brycehwe tend not to update mesa quite that frequently, so... ;-)07:36
brycehbut daily performance numbers would be lovely07:36
brycehor even more frequently.07:36
Dr_JakobWe need something like Linaro but only for graphics.07:37
brycehisn't that what X.org is?  ;-)07:38
Dr_JakobX.org doesn't have any developers.07:38
brycehsure they do07:39
brycehelse where would all these bugs be coming from?07:39
Dr_JakobNot hired/given to X.org...07:39
brycehanyway, my point is structurally the organization exists07:39
brycehwhat's lacking is the business case for putting funding / head-count towards manning it07:40
brycehalthough a number of companies contribute heads towards development work anyway07:40
Dr_JakobThat whats always boggles my mind, the UI is like the most fundamental thing of the OS yet it always gets the short end of the stick.07:41
* bryceh nods07:41
brycehkernel gets all the luv07:41
brycehmost linux-oriented companies have mostly just been focused on server business cases07:42
brycehso X is sort of a nicety for them07:42
brycehnot something which drives profitability07:42
Dr_JakobMyeah, tho the feel I get from Ubuntu its that its mostly a desktop outfit, yet your the one contributing the least to X..07:43
brycehhow do you count 'contributing'?07:45
Dr_JakobAlso I should have probably said "Linaro for 3D" instead of X, the priorities from all the hired devs seems to be Modesetting first 3D last.07:45
RAOFWell, Chase has been contributing a bunch of multitouch patches, but I'm not sure how much that's in his own time.  You're right, we don't have a lot of X hackers.07:45
RAOFxorg-edgers seems to be quite a useful contribution :)07:46
Dr_JakobAgain I probably should have said 3D instead of X, where I spend most of my time.07:46
RAOFDamn.  Attaching gdb to mutter caused it to unfreeze :(07:47
RAOFEven there, xorg-edgers seems to provide a bunch of testers for the bleeding-edge mesa, some of which appear to file useful bugs/hang on IRC in useful ways.07:48
RAOFIt's not the same as providing *code* to mesa.07:49
Dr_JakobYeah, xorg-edgers is nice for bug reports.07:49
Dr_Jakobbut yeah code is nicer, especially tested code.07:50
RAOFWe might be able to direct some people towards contributing code, too, but mesa & X is not particularly amenable to drive-by contributions.07:51
Dr_JakobThe problem is you deal with compilers, asyncorness system, network code, virtual memory and non-fault tolerent hardware.07:52
Dr_JakobGraphics code probably has the highest cost per line of code.07:52
brycehDr_Jakob, it's interesting you emphasize _tested_, and goes to my point.  ubuntu-x does a heapload of testing, but since testing does not show up in git changelogs, we earn zero credit for the work07:53
brycehsomeone contributing half a dozen git commits of untested buggy code gets more credit than any amount of testing/bug fixing/bug forwarding done at our end07:54
Dr_Jakobbryceh: I revised it "debugged" that includes fixing the problem :)07:54
Dr_Jakobit to*07:55
brycehDr_Jakob, the one thing you miss is "debugged *and delivered to users*"07:56
brycehfixes do little good to you if they're sitting in some remote git tree07:57
Dr_JakobI'm not saying you haven't done anything, I'm saying we can always need more people doing work on the drivers.07:57
bryceher, you said "you're the one contributing the least to X"07:57
brycehthem's fightin' words ;-)07:58
bryceh(and a bad yet quite popular meme)07:58
Dr_Jakobvs RedHat & Novel yes.07:58
RAOFAs long as you measure by LoC, certainly.07:59
Dr_JakobActually I don't really know what Novel does for X, so maybe they are just as bad..07:59
Dr_JakobDoes Fedora have bleeding edge as well?08:00
RAOFFedora kindof _is_ bleeding edge, but I'm not aware of anything like xorg-edgers there.08:00
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
superm1RAOF, could you help me to understand what the negative implications are for running a system that supports KMS with fbdev for 2D stuff?  Are there any?21:52
superm1eg, lets say it's an intel system, and modesetting is enabled, but we choose to run X with fbdev21:52
brycehsuperm1, lack of 3D is the main thing21:54
superm1bryceh, so for say trying to come up with a more stable installation though, no real negative implications then21:55
brycehsuperm1, you might also check video, like if Xv is available21:55
superm1i'm looking at on recovery media forcing to vesa / fbdev for installation only maybe21:55
brycehthat's probably fine21:56
superm1especially knowing there is a mess of problems with sugar bay stuff right now that might not necessarily be fixed by the time maverick launches21:56
superm1okay cool thanks.  i've added it as a configurable option in ubiquity21:57
superm1debconf option is ubiquity/force_failsafe_graphics21:58
* bryceh nods21:58
brycehwe've used fbdev for the failsafe-x stuff21:58
superm1the only real problem then is if the HW fails at modesetting, still need to patch initial kernel command line to nomodeset :)21:59
superm1it would be nice if there was actually a way to prod something in sysfs or procfs to turn on and off modesetting21:59
brycehyou could check if xrandr can be used from a fbdev session21:59
brycehsuperm1, you could chat with one of the kernel guys, I'd spoken to them last UDS about making configuration of kms settings easier, and they seemed to already know of some plans afoot22:01
superm1oh rlly?  that would certainly be nice22:01
superm1looks like you're right, xrandr doesn't work when you are booted with fbdev22:02
superm1fortunately that shouldn't be too necessary during install22:02
brycehok yeah I suspected that22:02
brycehoh, power saving stuff might also not be available with fbdev22:03
brycehor at least screen blanking22:03
superm1okay, that shouldn't be too big a deal either then22:04
brycehsuperm1, specifically we were talking about making it easier to add quirks and to toggle debugging stuff, and they told me about the kernel getting support for having a loadable data nodule where you can set quirks and toggle parameters like the chosen resolution, and then pass that to the kernel 22:05
brycehit was a bit hand wavy, and I didn't follow up so dunno what the status is22:05
brycehhowever I think it is exactly the sort of thing you guys will find useful for quirking/configuring some of this stuff22:05
superm1ah, but that would still be stuff that was passed on the kernel command line then i take it22:05
superm1oh wait, but loadable data module, maybe not22:06
brycehI'm not sure what the exact interface is for it, might be sysfs22:06
superm1who was it you were chatting with about this?  i should just ping 'em and see22:06
brycehandy mainly, chase and ogasawara were there too. 22:06
Sarvattsuperm1: as long as we get mesa 7.9 in sugar bay should be fine (famous last words..)23:21
Sarvattthen again there's still all kinds of problems with panels using eDP23:22
Dr_JakobSugar Bay?23:24
Sarvattyeah next intel platform coming out with sandybridge cpu/gpu23:24
Sarvattnew socket yet again :(23:25
Sarvattsuperm1: i bet you guys at dell are loving the fact that all intel laptops with nvidia GPU's will be unable to use the discreet gpu for a looong time in linux huh?23:28
superm1did I miss something?23:30
superm1oh, when there are multi nvidia gpu setups23:30
superm1you can at least use one of the GPUs still23:31
Sarvattonly the intel, its an abomination where the nvidia gpu renders into the intel and i haven't seen any that let you pick one or the other in bios or via acpi yet so you're stuck with only the intel graphics built into the cpu23:32
superm1oh yuck, i didn't realize it was that bad23:32
Sarvattthe old type of hybrids work somewhat but these optimus ones are nasty23:33
superm1none of the platforms that have come by my group have actually had that stuff yet23:34
Sarvattoh looks like alienware m11x is the only laptop with nvidia graphics on dell.com at the moment from a quick glance23:39
superm1i know most of the machines that have it, but i haven't kept up on release dates, so i probably shouldn't say much beyond that23:41
SarvattI'll probably be working with those same machines here soon :)23:53

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