[03:26] <troy_s> vish: Greets.
[20:14] <zniavre> good evening
[20:14] <zniavre> there is a place where to find next(new) Ambiance theme ?
[20:35] <troy_s> Greets thorwil, vish, et al.
[20:35] <thorwil> hi troy_s
[20:36] <troy_s> thorwil: How goes things?
[20:38] <thorwil> troy_s: 70% turquoise. i might do logo/header for an academic site, in the sound software area soon now (modestly payed)
[20:38] <troy_s> thorwil: Wow. You just spoke in a language I completely didn't understand.
[20:39] <troy_s> thorwil: Re-reading... I think I got it. You are working on something for someone. Phew.
[20:39] <thorwil> troy_s: pah, just wait until you see the output of that guy who wrote a book in a comment on my blog :)
[20:39] <troy_s> thorwil: Took a little work.
[20:39] <troy_s> thorwil: Yep. Nasty people that write.
[20:40] <troy_s> thorwil: They drive me nuts.
[20:43] <thorwil> troy_s: i feel some temptation to leave out the track art and attributes and the scrubber from that panel. but you have to know that i wanted to stay compatible with what has been presented so far
[20:44] <troy_s> thorwil: Brutal and completely disconnected suggestion.
[20:44] <troy_s> thorwil: It certainly would be yeah yeah rah rah in GNOME / Libre software audience circles.
[20:44] <troy_s> thorwil: But to a _vast_ audience, it would be a dire act of defeating-the-purpose.
[20:45] <troy_s> thorwil: Start with the easy question... I bet you have an answer... who the hell is this thing for?
[20:45] <troy_s> thorwil: I'd love to hear your speculation on that quesiton.
[20:45] <troy_s> s/quesiton/question
[20:46] <thorwil> troy_s: i'm a fan of task centered design. especially for things with a very broad user base ;)
[20:46] <troy_s> thorwil: Good luck on that.
[20:47] <troy_s> thorwil: Here's a better way of asking it - who would you want to say "Wow... that is absolutely fantastic' or "ZOMGISAWESOME'?
[20:47] <troy_s> thorwil: Your language simply skirts around the issue.
[20:48] <thorwil> troy_s: i'm all for defining the audience where applicable. but you have to realize that this becomes a huge problem if you deal with something like an operating system environment
[20:48] <troy_s> thorwil: The very act of putting a music controller in a panel applet is making a bunch of assumptions about what tasks are valuable. So why should we skirt around it any more?
[20:48] <troy_s> thorwil: Does it?
[20:48] <troy_s> thorwil: Why is music going into the task panel?
[20:48] <troy_s> thorwil: It is no problem at all.
[20:49] <troy_s> thorwil: People are just hard pressed as hell to spot the obvious judgement calls and obvious trajectories.
[20:50] <thorwil> troy_s: there are no easy answers here, with very real 16 year old kids, 22 year old enthusiastic students, 35 year old seasoned hackers and 60 year old moms, among million variations
[20:50] <troy_s> thorwil: Bingo. So grow some hubris and pick one. Let's make _someone_ happy.
[20:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Instead of this watered down broad spanning clinical crap.
[20:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Put some emotion on the table.
[20:51] <thorwil> troy_s: i can't. go convince Mark or Ivanka
[20:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Should you need to? Last time I checked Ubuntu isn't exactly setting the bar for emotional experiences.
[20:52] <troy_s> thorwil: It's weak as piss. Time will bear that out.
[20:52] <troy_s> Oops. Omit that slightly offensive word. Apologies.
[20:53] <thorwil> troy_s: after that kyudo thing, i find i simply don't have the energy for the big picture at once. so it's either details now and then, or nothing
[20:54] <thorwil> troy_s: and at least once a weak i wonder if i shouldn't leave this entire area behind
[20:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Been there done that. Did.
[20:54] <troy_s> lol
[20:56] <thorwil> troy_s: still your words jump over the fence. one could criticize that you are like a ghost
[20:56] <troy_s> thorwil: I don't intend them to do anything but be read by the folks that know me. That's about it.
[20:57] <troy_s> thorwil: By and large, judging from the vast number of 'supporters', no one wants to talk about exclusion.
[20:57] <troy_s> thorwil: So be it. We won't.
[20:58] <troy_s> thorwil: "Broad" begs the question... why?
[21:01] <thorwil> because there's a large set of shared needs and a modern operating system environment is a pretty general thing?
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: I mean... It is tough. How do you stand up and say "Something is amiss here?" It cascades into a bunch of dumb boring topics that no one wants to really hear. How do you deliver a gush of emotion? If it were only easy.
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: Are they?
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: Can't you see a glaring trend?
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: It isn't what the iPad does that is important, it is likely more important to examine what it _doesn't_ do.
[21:02] <troy_s> thorwil: It's that nebulous thing of design granularity as technology evolves. Is Photoshop better? (What does that mean?) Why does Aperture or Lightroom do that Photoshop can't?
[21:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Or is their value actually in what they _can't_ do. Reminds me of that bit of Tao Te Ching ... something about the value of a boat being in the fact that the hull is empty.
[21:04] <troy_s> thorwil: Interesting stuff, none the less.
[21:05] <thorwil> troy_s: the purpose of the sound menu can only be relatively quick access to controls relating to what you currently hear, without hunting down a specific player window
[21:05] <troy_s> thorwil: And in that you made a whole pile of assumptions didn't you? Why not line them up? List them?
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: Those are the constraints we are dealing with. I mean gosh... look at the list of comments over at sabdfl's blog.
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: See a diversity of opinion?
[21:06] <thorwil> troy_s: i didn't read them. i wasn't happy the last few times after reading some in similar cases
[21:06] <troy_s> thorwil: I'm not disagreeing with you. Just trying to say that as soon as you and I step out of here and try to say something bigger, there is a big smattering.
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: There was one suggestion we remove artwork. Valid? Hell yes. Then another to make artwork larger. Valid? Hell yes.
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: We are pursuing Platonic ideals. Impossible.
[21:07] <troy_s> thorwil: How can you reconcile the _valid_ design suggestion to remove artwork _and_ make it bigger?
[21:08] <troy_s> thorwil: _That_ is the core of this issue. I sure hope people are starting to see it.
[21:09] <troy_s> thorwil: I believe they are. I actually have people suggesting that the topic is valid now where before I was just labelled a raving lunatic. It isn't exactly like it is _my_ idea. LOL. This is pretty common stuff that's been floating around design, art, etc for at least a couple of centuriers.
[21:09] <troy_s> centuries
[21:09] <troy_s> even
[21:12] <troy_s> thorwil: And don't give up. Please.
[21:12] <thorwil> troy_s: tackling this from the question of how to evaluate design decisions seems more convincing to me than starting with your old call for defining the audience (no matter that you will soon go there, then)
[21:13] <troy_s> thorwil: There is a pretty simple Free Software analogy I believe. Math.
[21:13] <troy_s> thorwil: Math is great. It is all plus minus and right and wrong.
[21:13] <troy_s> thorwil: But how do you reconcile the old woman on a train throwing a ball?
[21:13] <troy_s> thorwil: How fast is the ball travelling?
[21:14] <troy_s> thorwil: That's where we STOP in Free Software art and design currently. We fracture off talking about how right we are for the ball travelling at x speed or y speed.
[21:14] <troy_s> thorwil: All entirely correct.
[21:14] <troy_s> thorwil: Label it as bikeshedding. But somehow I get a feeling that we are actually _wasting_ a lot of valuable discourse simply because we are operating on different metrics / perspectives.
[21:14] <troy_s> thorwil: Do you know what I mean?
[21:15] <thorwil> troy_s: no, as benchmarks should counter bikeshedding
[21:15] <troy_s> thorwil: Really?
[21:15] <thorwil> sadly, i have to run now, cya!
[21:15] <troy_s> thorwil: Night.