[09:37] <huats> morning
[13:00] <aday> mpt: hey :) get back ok?
[13:00] <mpt> Hello hello
[13:00] <mpt> Hi aday
[13:01] <mpt> hi andreasn
[13:01] <andreasn> hi!
[13:01] <humphreybc> hey
[13:01] <thorwil> hi all!
[13:01] <aday> andreasn is here. a new recruit!
[13:01] <aday> hi all
[13:01] <andreasn> recruit?
[13:02] <andreasn> I am?
[13:02] <andreasn> :)
[13:02] <mpt> I invited andreasn
[13:02] <mpt> andreasn, are you on the mailing list?
[13:02] <mpt> hi humphreybc, hi thorwil
[13:02] <andreasn> uh, maybe
[13:03] <andreasn> I got a mail from ayatana-ux@lists.launchpad.net, so I think I am
[13:03]  * humphreybc is trying out jolicloud
[13:04] <aday> shall we use mpt's mail as an agenda?
[13:05] <mpt> okie dokie
[13:05] <thorwil> "Starting new design projects. There are various small things in Ubuntu that we know need redesigning: for example, Appearance
[13:05] <thorwil>     settings, display settings, the screenshot utility. How could we organize people to work together on these designs?"
[13:06] <humphreybc> hold a gun to their head and force them?
[13:06] <mpt> Places like the Ayatana mailing list have plenty of small ideas, but hardly any sustained efforts
[13:06] <humphreybc> hello ivanka :)
[13:07] <thorwil> first thing could be to have a list of those various things
[13:07] <aday> it would be great to have something like design hub for this
[13:07] <thorwil> be it on a wiki page, or tickets
[13:08] <thorwil> aday: that's what i have been saying. the problem is: who's gonna write that and set it up and maintain it?
[13:08] <aday> thorwil: it was in development, but it seems to have stalled :(
[13:09] <humphreybc> :(
[13:09] <mpt> After five years I'm automatically skeptical of any solution to any problem that involves Yet Another Web Site
[13:10] <mpt> Are there ways we could reuse the communications methods we already have?
[13:10] <aday> mpt: i'm sure there are. we've been trying to use live.gnome.org/Design to do something like this
[13:10] <wers> hello
[13:10] <mpt> Maybe I could just post to ayatana@ and say "It would be cool if people had a go at redesigning these things" and see what happens :-)
[13:10] <mpt> hi wers
[13:10] <thorwil> mpt: like i said: for a list or projects and some minimal tracking: wiki page or LP tickets
[13:10] <wers> hi mpt aday thorwil
[13:10] <thorwil> hi wers
[13:10] <aday> wers: hi :)
[13:11] <mpt> humphreybc, how did that Weather Indicator get started?
[13:11] <andreasn> yeah, live.gnome.org/Design + bug reports seems to have been working pretty good so far
[13:11] <humphreybc> I think some people in #omg!ubuntu! decided to randomly start it
[13:11] <humphreybc> then they left the project
[13:11] <humphreybc> Ohso (our company) took over and it now has a developer working on it basically full time
[13:11] <humphreybc> so originally, bored people who saw a need?
[13:12] <vish> oh , whats up here!
[13:12] <vish> people in the meeting :D
[13:12] <andreasn> especially with the Designers and Developers columns, because that means someone is responsible
[13:12] <thorwil> vish: psst! don't ruin it!
[13:13] <mpt> hm
[13:13] <thorwil> mpt: if you'd just post to ayatana with a design task, how would you avoid a blown up "discussion"?
[13:13] <mpt> oh, there's little hope of avoiding that
[13:13] <mpt> The question is could we get anything else as well.
[13:14] <mpt> Actually, the three examples I gave are all generic Gnome stuff, so they could go on live.gnome.org/Design
[13:14] <andreasn> well, a lot of the noise is drive by comments, right?
[13:14] <andreasn> for all sorts of things
[13:14] <mpt> yep
[13:15] <andreasn> assigning people to stuff and have them be responsible for that full time might work?
[13:15] <andreasn> so some kind of "commitment to fix something, or be silent" agenda maybe
[13:16] <aday> mpt: we're planning to have weekly gnome design office hours - that could be a good forum for this kind of discussion (for the gnome-specific stuff, at least)
[13:16] <humphreybc> I've noticed that a lot of people are willing to work, they just need direction.
[13:16] <thorwil> regarding responsibility, small package size and high chance of exacting implementation would help with motivation
[13:16] <mpt> aday, where would that be, and who's "we" in that context?
[13:17] <vish> mpt: aday's secret hideout , in #gnome-design ;)
[13:17] <mpt> ah
[13:17] <aday> mpt: 'we' - anybody who wants to participate :)
[13:17] <thorwil> note #gnome-design on gimpnet
[13:18] <vish> thorwil: iirc mpt knows but just forgets to login there since recently ;p
[13:18] <andreasn> and I think there are people like Thomas Wood who are interested in fixing the Appearance applet, as long as he gets some direction
[13:19] <andreasn> or, well, we'll see what happens to that one specifically
[13:19] <mpt> It's because "Add to Favorites" is completely broken in XChat, that's why
[13:20] <aday> mpt: you know about gnome-design on gitorious too? we're using sparkleshare to share mockups
[13:20] <mpt> I did not
[13:20] <thorwil> nah, the Network List is a master piece!!
[13:20] <mgunes>  hi all, sorry to be late. I'll try to catch up with the remainder of the meeting.
[13:21] <aday> mpt: http://gitorious.org/gnome-design/gnome-design
[13:21] <andreasn> mpt, I keep forgetting channels as well.
[13:21] <mpt> I particularly love the tooltip that says "Channels to join, separated by commas, but not spaces!"
[13:21] <andreasn> mpt, :)
[13:22] <andreasn> oh, there is also a right click menu if you click the channel list, this is in xchat-gnome though
[13:22] <andreasn> ok, drifting off from topic a bit :)
[13:23] <vish> moving on...
[13:23] <humphreybc> you all should use pidgin
[13:23] <humphreybc> works like a charm
[13:23] <vish> mpt: there is one person , who i think would be interested in working on screenie
[13:24] <vish> what are the requirements? what language is preferred[i believe he is good in python]?
[13:24] <wers> vish, ooh. screenie is alive?
[13:24] <mpt> andreasn, Pongo is currently Python, right?
[13:24] <vish> wers: well , it was in mpt's agenda
[13:24] <thorwil> right, 3rd point. not 2nd! ;)
[13:25] <wers> vish, oh. the log isn't updated so I wasn't able to catch up
[13:25] <andreasn> mpt, yeah, and it's, hm, works in funny ways sometimes
[13:25] <andreasn> mpt, but I was surprised Jan actually found use for it
[13:26] <humphreybc> be back in a bit
[13:26] <mgunes> in case some of you haven't heard of it: ClutterSmith looks like it might be a useful tool for animated mockups, among other things. I have yet to get it to compile at this point though.
[13:26] <mpt> vish, so could you point him/her to the project page and suggest adding a graphical interface?
[13:26] <andreasn> cool!
[13:27] <andreasn> mpt, and let this person know that a rewrite is fully possible
[13:27] <andreasn> err... that was to vish
[13:28] <vish> mpt: sure , but i dont see a specs page , not sure where to point him to , and oddly i cant find the existing code o.0
[13:28] <andreasn> hbons trick to "trow something horrible together so that others will fix it for you" probably works great for Pongo too :)
[13:28] <mpt> andreasn, is http://www.andreasn.se/blog/images/pongo.py the latest version?
[13:28] <vish> oh wait ! lp was just fooling me! found it
[13:28] <mpt> ok
[13:29] <andreasn> I think Jan might have done some fixes
[13:29] <andreasn> checking with him now
[13:29] <mpt> Who's Jan?
[13:29] <wers> Jan-Christoph
[13:29] <andreasn> Borchardt
[13:29] <mpt> ok, Charline is out at lunch, but I will ask her about how we should research personas
[13:29] <wers> we're pursuing the open usability lab. he's been playing with pongo
[13:29] <andreasn> the dude who is doing the testing on Shotwell
[13:30] <mpt> vish will see if he can find a Screenie contributor
[13:30] <andreasn> woohoo!
[13:30] <wers> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inquata/pongo/pongo/annotate/head:/pongo.py
[13:30] <mpt> aaaaaand I will post about live.gnome.org/Design to ayatana@, unless aday would like to do that instead
[13:31] <aday> mpt: i'm happy for you to do it :)
[13:31] <mpt> humphreybc, do you think perhaps godbyk would be interested in writing a user testing script template?
[13:31] <mpt> aday, ok
[13:31] <andreasn> what is a user testing script?
[13:31] <aday> mpt: i've been adding some resources to the usability project that the ayatana crowd might be interested in, btw
[13:32] <vish> gah! @ayatana ml :/
[13:32] <humphreybc> mpt: a user testing script template?
[13:32] <aday> mpt: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/GettingStarted  http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/DoingResearch
[13:32] <mpt> andreasn, the thing you read from when conducting a user test. Including such vital sentences as "We're testing the software, not you."
[13:32] <andreasn> ooh, I was thinking of a shell script :)
[13:33] <humphreybc> ah
[13:33] <humphreybc> I think godbyk could definitely do that
[13:33] <humphreybc> he might already have
[13:33] <humphreybc> one
[13:33] <mpt> neat
[13:33] <aday> mpt: http://live.gnome.org/Pongo/Tutorial i never finished it though :(
[13:34] <mpt> Ok, I'm sorry I'm snowed under with other work today so I'll have to bow out now, but feel free to carry on without me. :-)
[13:34] <aday> actually, most of it's there
[13:34] <humphreybc> mpt: exciting work no doubt
[13:36] <aday> anything more to say about the testing stuff or shall we move on?
[13:36] <thorwil> maybe we could talk about the nice things we will do with our plenty of free time while mpt is snowed under now?
[13:36] <wers> Jan happens to be writing on the open usability lab Wave right now. You want me to tell him to join the meeting now?
[13:36] <aday> wers: i lost the link to that...
[13:37] <wers> aday, which one?
[13:37] <wers> I meant, he's currenly online and we're talking about the same project
[13:38] <aday> sorry, ignore me. yeah get him over here
[13:38] <aday> :)
[13:39] <mgunes> aday, was the UX advocates BoF at GUADEC recorded on video?
[13:40] <vish> aday: what's the latest about HIG update?
[13:40] <aday> mgunes: no, but i'm going to be sending a report to the usability list
[13:40] <vish> what is changing for HIG3
[13:40] <aday> vish: same! oh, and i'll be firing off a blog post later today
[13:40] <vish> cool..
[13:40] <mgunes> aday, alright, thanks!
[13:40] <andreasn> * HIG3 will be a pattern library
[13:41] <andreasn> * + some initial design principles
[13:41] <aday> mgunes: live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/UXAdvocates
[13:41] <mpt> I wrote http://live.gnome.org/action/edit/UsabilityProject/HIG3/HandlingErrors while at Guadec
[13:41] <andreasn> http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HIG3
[13:41] <andreasn> more writers are needed!
[13:42] <aday> none of my patterns are finished yet!
[13:42] <aday> well, 'my' - i welcome contributions :)
[13:42] <andreasn> wasn't there an etherpad too somewhere?
[13:43] <aday> andreasn: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ui-patterns
[13:43] <humphreybc> mpt: you have your own category on OMG! Ubuntu. Do you feel special?
[13:43] <andreasn> aday, ah, yes, thanks!
[13:43] <aday> we're off topic again. shall we move on to talk about personas?
[13:44] <humphreybc> ubuntu manual team has been working on personas
[13:44] <humphreybc> for use in the manual
[13:44] <humphreybc> not sure what's happening there atm
[13:44] <aday> hylke and garrett started some for gnome but there hasn't been any work done for a little while
[13:44] <andreasn> aday, ok if I link to the pad from the HIG3 wiki page?
[13:45] <aday> andreasn: it already is 'List of other potential patterns'
[13:45] <andreasn> ah, sweet!
[13:46] <aday> is there anybody out there who wants to spend some time on this?
[13:46] <aday> what kind of research do we want to do for the personas?
[13:47] <aday> i've drawn up an interview schedule for the gnome design ones, but finding time to do the interviews will be tricky
[13:48] <aday> some observation based research could also work though. what do people think?
[13:49] <JanCBorchardt> wers: hey :)
[13:49] <wers> JanCBorchardt, there you are. I didn't know they were also discussing at #gnome-design
[13:49] <aday> JanCBorchardt: hello there! :)
[13:50] <JanCBorchardt> aday: hey to you too ;)
[13:50] <aday> seems like the testing tools discussion has moved to #gnome-design :P
[13:50] <wers> yeah. lol
[13:51] <thorwil> aday: are the interviews something that could be spready, could you try a call for helpers?
[13:52] <JanCBorchardt> wers: aday: yes, I suggest we discuss about Pongo on gnome-design because it is not really Ubuntu-only. And work has been done on the wiki already
[13:52] <aday> thorwil: i think it needs to be done by at least one person to begin with - the schedule needs to be piloted, and it might evolve to begin with
[13:52] <wers> JanCBorchardt, that's right.
[13:53] <aday> thorwil: i'm wanting to do rather open-ended interviews - which are difficult to distribute
[13:53] <thorwil> ic
[13:53] <aday> which isn't to say that others couldn't help
[13:53] <aday> it would be great if people wanted to try out the schedule
[13:54] <JanCBorchardt> so who here is actually interested in the user testing stuff? (except for wers and aday ;)
[13:55]  * thorwil -> coffee
[13:56]  * aday -> cigarette
[13:57] <JanCBorchardt> aday: wers: did I miss anything here?
[14:05] <aday> JanCBorchardt: http://pastebin.com/Dd80bbvD
[14:06] <aday> JanCBorchardt: i wrote this for pongo. might be useful: http://pastebin.com/Dd80bbvD
[14:06] <aday> wrong link! http://live.gnome.org/Pongo/Tutorial
[14:07] <wers> aday, thanks for the  log
[14:08] <JanCBorchardt> aday: yep, have seen that. I was going to put that in the Guerilla testing blogpost
[14:08] <JanCBorchardt> and thanks for the log :)
[14:08] <andreasn> JanCBorchardt, what's the URL to your blog?
[14:08] <JanCBorchardt> andreasn: http://jancborchardt.wordpress.com/
[14:09] <JanCBorchardt> only an introduction as of now, I have some drafts of earlier writings
[14:12] <aday> shall we wrap things up for today? anybody fancy writing some notes for the list?
[14:13] <JanCBorchardt> I didn’t know of the meeting, is it every Thursday at 13 UTC?
[14:13] <aday> JanCBorchardt: yep. there's a launchpad team - ask mpt to add you
[14:15] <mgunes> aday, I can do the meeting notes.
[14:15] <JanCBorchardt> mpt: could you please add me to the Ayatana UX team? I just discovered I applied a while ago
[14:15] <aday> mgunes: awesome! i would but i'm snowed under right now
[14:15] <humphreybc> JanCBorchardt: I can add you
[14:15] <humphreybc> what's your launchpad thing?
[14:16] <mgunes> it will take some hours though; probably late tonight.
[14:16] <wers> humphreybc, he's already pending there
[14:16] <humphreybc> oh okay
[14:16] <humphreybc> i'll approve him now
[14:17] <humphreybc> done
[14:17] <aday> mgunes: no problem :)
[14:17] <JanCBorchardt> humphreybc: cool, thanks
[14:18] <mgunes> my suggestion is to use the mailing list for other things than meeting notes, by the way. let's get a bit chatty ;)
[14:18] <aday> mgunes: yes, we're not utilising it enough right now
[14:19] <humphreybc> right i'm off guys
[14:19] <humphreybc> catch you later :)
[14:19] <aday> me too
[14:19] <mgunes> aday, right, I prefer the discourse to be more spread out and asynchronous. we'll have to rely less on the meetings that way.
[14:20] <mgunes> me too. see you all.
[14:20] <aday> humphreybc: see you!