=== oubiwann is now known as oubiwann-away === oubiwann-away is now known as oubiwann === kermiac is now known as Wile === Wile is now known as Wile-E-Coyote === Wile-E-Coyote is now known as kermiac === lag is now known as Guest33319 === lag is now known as Guest69465 === mdeslaur-afk is now known as mdeslaur === lag is now known as Guest13436 === lag is now known as Guest71543 [09:37] morning === lag is now known as Guest27899 === yofel_ is now known as yofel [13:00] mpt: hey :) get back ok? [13:00] Hello hello [13:00] Hi aday [13:01] hi andreasn [13:01] hi! [13:01] hey [13:01] hi all! [13:01] andreasn is here. a new recruit! [13:01] hi all [13:01] recruit? [13:02] I am? [13:02] :) [13:02] I invited andreasn [13:02] andreasn, are you on the mailing list? [13:02] hi humphreybc, hi thorwil [13:02] uh, maybe [13:03] I got a mail from ayatana-ux@lists.launchpad.net, so I think I am [13:03] * humphreybc is trying out jolicloud [13:04] shall we use mpt's mail as an agenda? [13:05] okie dokie [13:05] "Starting new design projects. There are various small things in Ubuntu that we know need redesigning: for example, Appearance [13:05] settings, display settings, the screenshot utility. How could we organize people to work together on these designs?" [13:06] hold a gun to their head and force them? [13:06] Places like the Ayatana mailing list have plenty of small ideas, but hardly any sustained efforts [13:06] hello ivanka :) [13:07] first thing could be to have a list of those various things [13:07] it would be great to have something like design hub for this [13:07] be it on a wiki page, or tickets [13:08] aday: that's what i have been saying. the problem is: who's gonna write that and set it up and maintain it? [13:08] thorwil: it was in development, but it seems to have stalled :( [13:09] :( [13:09] After five years I'm automatically skeptical of any solution to any problem that involves Yet Another Web Site === Moonwalker is now known as Destine [13:10] Are there ways we could reuse the communications methods we already have? [13:10] mpt: i'm sure there are. we've been trying to use live.gnome.org/Design to do something like this [13:10] hello [13:10] Maybe I could just post to ayatana@ and say "It would be cool if people had a go at redesigning these things" and see what happens :-) [13:10] hi wers [13:10] mpt: like i said: for a list or projects and some minimal tracking: wiki page or LP tickets [13:10] hi mpt aday thorwil [13:10] hi wers [13:10] wers: hi :) [13:11] humphreybc, how did that Weather Indicator get started? [13:11] yeah, live.gnome.org/Design + bug reports seems to have been working pretty good so far [13:11] I think some people in #omg!ubuntu! decided to randomly start it [13:11] then they left the project [13:11] Ohso (our company) took over and it now has a developer working on it basically full time [13:11] so originally, bored people who saw a need? [13:12] oh , whats up here! [13:12] people in the meeting :D [13:12] especially with the Designers and Developers columns, because that means someone is responsible [13:12] vish: psst! don't ruin it! [13:13] hm [13:13] mpt: if you'd just post to ayatana with a design task, how would you avoid a blown up "discussion"? [13:13] oh, there's little hope of avoiding that === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha [13:13] The question is could we get anything else as well. [13:14] Actually, the three examples I gave are all generic Gnome stuff, so they could go on live.gnome.org/Design [13:14] well, a lot of the noise is drive by comments, right? [13:14] for all sorts of things [13:14] yep [13:15] assigning people to stuff and have them be responsible for that full time might work? [13:15] so some kind of "commitment to fix something, or be silent" agenda maybe [13:16] mpt: we're planning to have weekly gnome design office hours - that could be a good forum for this kind of discussion (for the gnome-specific stuff, at least) [13:16] I've noticed that a lot of people are willing to work, they just need direction. [13:16] regarding responsibility, small package size and high chance of exacting implementation would help with motivation [13:16] aday, where would that be, and who's "we" in that context? [13:17] mpt: aday's secret hideout , in #gnome-design ;) [13:17] ah [13:17] mpt: 'we' - anybody who wants to participate :) [13:17] note #gnome-design on gimpnet [13:18] thorwil: iirc mpt knows but just forgets to login there since recently ;p [13:18] and I think there are people like Thomas Wood who are interested in fixing the Appearance applet, as long as he gets some direction [13:19] or, well, we'll see what happens to that one specifically [13:19] It's because "Add to Favorites" is completely broken in XChat, that's why [13:20] mpt: you know about gnome-design on gitorious too? we're using sparkleshare to share mockups [13:20] I did not [13:20] nah, the Network List is a master piece!! [13:20] hi all, sorry to be late. I'll try to catch up with the remainder of the meeting. [13:21] mpt: http://gitorious.org/gnome-design/gnome-design [13:21] mpt, I keep forgetting channels as well. [13:21] I particularly love the tooltip that says "Channels to join, separated by commas, but not spaces!" [13:21] mpt, :) [13:22] oh, there is also a right click menu if you click the channel list, this is in xchat-gnome though [13:22] ok, drifting off from topic a bit :) [13:23] moving on... [13:23] you all should use pidgin [13:23] works like a charm [13:23] mpt: there is one person , who i think would be interested in working on screenie [13:24] what are the requirements? what language is preferred[i believe he is good in python]? [13:24] vish, ooh. screenie is alive? [13:24] andreasn, Pongo is currently Python, right? [13:24] wers: well , it was in mpt's agenda [13:24] right, 3rd point. not 2nd! ;) [13:25] vish, oh. the log isn't updated so I wasn't able to catch up [13:25] mpt, yeah, and it's, hm, works in funny ways sometimes [13:25] mpt, but I was surprised Jan actually found use for it [13:26] be back in a bit [13:26] in case some of you haven't heard of it: ClutterSmith looks like it might be a useful tool for animated mockups, among other things. I have yet to get it to compile at this point though. [13:26] vish, so could you point him/her to the project page and suggest adding a graphical interface? [13:26] cool! [13:27] mpt, and let this person know that a rewrite is fully possible [13:27] err... that was to vish [13:28] mpt: sure , but i dont see a specs page , not sure where to point him to , and oddly i cant find the existing code o.0 [13:28] hbons trick to "trow something horrible together so that others will fix it for you" probably works great for Pongo too :) [13:28] andreasn, is http://www.andreasn.se/blog/images/pongo.py the latest version? [13:28] oh wait ! lp was just fooling me! found it [13:28] ok [13:29] I think Jan might have done some fixes [13:29] checking with him now [13:29] Who's Jan? [13:29] Jan-Christoph [13:29] Borchardt [13:29] ok, Charline is out at lunch, but I will ask her about how we should research personas [13:29] we're pursuing the open usability lab. he's been playing with pongo [13:29] the dude who is doing the testing on Shotwell [13:30] vish will see if he can find a Screenie contributor [13:30] woohoo! [13:30] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inquata/pongo/pongo/annotate/head:/pongo.py [13:30] aaaaaand I will post about live.gnome.org/Design to ayatana@, unless aday would like to do that instead [13:31] mpt: i'm happy for you to do it :) [13:31] humphreybc, do you think perhaps godbyk would be interested in writing a user testing script template? [13:31] aday, ok [13:31] what is a user testing script? [13:31] mpt: i've been adding some resources to the usability project that the ayatana crowd might be interested in, btw [13:32] gah! @ayatana ml :/ [13:32] mpt: a user testing script template? [13:32] mpt: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/GettingStarted http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/DoingResearch [13:32] andreasn, the thing you read from when conducting a user test. Including such vital sentences as "We're testing the software, not you." [13:32] ooh, I was thinking of a shell script :) [13:33] ah [13:33] I think godbyk could definitely do that [13:33] he might already have [13:33] one [13:33] neat [13:33] mpt: http://live.gnome.org/Pongo/Tutorial i never finished it though :( === lag is now known as Guest6225 [13:34] Ok, I'm sorry I'm snowed under with other work today so I'll have to bow out now, but feel free to carry on without me. :-) [13:34] actually, most of it's there [13:34] mpt: exciting work no doubt [13:36] anything more to say about the testing stuff or shall we move on? [13:36] maybe we could talk about the nice things we will do with our plenty of free time while mpt is snowed under now? [13:36] Jan happens to be writing on the open usability lab Wave right now. You want me to tell him to join the meeting now? [13:36] wers: i lost the link to that... [13:37] aday, which one? [13:37] I meant, he's currenly online and we're talking about the same project [13:38] sorry, ignore me. yeah get him over here [13:38] :) [13:39] aday, was the UX advocates BoF at GUADEC recorded on video? [13:40] aday: what's the latest about HIG update? [13:40] mgunes: no, but i'm going to be sending a report to the usability list [13:40] what is changing for HIG3 [13:40] vish: same! oh, and i'll be firing off a blog post later today [13:40] cool.. [13:40] aday, alright, thanks! [13:40] * HIG3 will be a pattern library [13:41] * + some initial design principles [13:41] mgunes: live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/UXAdvocates [13:41] I wrote http://live.gnome.org/action/edit/UsabilityProject/HIG3/HandlingErrors while at Guadec [13:41] http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HIG3 [13:41] more writers are needed! [13:42] none of my patterns are finished yet! [13:42] well, 'my' - i welcome contributions :) [13:42] wasn't there an etherpad too somewhere? [13:43] andreasn: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ui-patterns [13:43] mpt: you have your own category on OMG! Ubuntu. Do you feel special? [13:43] aday, ah, yes, thanks! [13:43] we're off topic again. shall we move on to talk about personas? [13:44] ubuntu manual team has been working on personas [13:44] for use in the manual [13:44] not sure what's happening there atm [13:44] hylke and garrett started some for gnome but there hasn't been any work done for a little while [13:44] aday, ok if I link to the pad from the HIG3 wiki page? === Guest6225 is now known as lag_ [13:45] andreasn: it already is 'List of other potential patterns' [13:45] ah, sweet! [13:46] is there anybody out there who wants to spend some time on this? [13:46] what kind of research do we want to do for the personas? [13:47] i've drawn up an interview schedule for the gnome design ones, but finding time to do the interviews will be tricky [13:48] some observation based research could also work though. what do people think? [13:49] wers: hey :) [13:49] JanCBorchardt, there you are. I didn't know they were also discussing at #gnome-design [13:49] JanCBorchardt: hello there! :) [13:50] aday: hey to you too ;) [13:50] seems like the testing tools discussion has moved to #gnome-design :P [13:50] yeah. lol [13:51] aday: are the interviews something that could be spready, could you try a call for helpers? [13:52] wers: aday: yes, I suggest we discuss about Pongo on gnome-design because it is not really Ubuntu-only. And work has been done on the wiki already [13:52] thorwil: i think it needs to be done by at least one person to begin with - the schedule needs to be piloted, and it might evolve to begin with [13:52] JanCBorchardt, that's right. [13:53] thorwil: i'm wanting to do rather open-ended interviews - which are difficult to distribute [13:53] ic [13:53] which isn't to say that others couldn't help [13:53] it would be great if people wanted to try out the schedule [13:54] so who here is actually interested in the user testing stuff? (except for wers and aday ;) [13:55] * thorwil -> coffee [13:56] * aday -> cigarette [13:57] aday: wers: did I miss anything here? [14:05] JanCBorchardt: http://pastebin.com/Dd80bbvD [14:06] JanCBorchardt: i wrote this for pongo. might be useful: http://pastebin.com/Dd80bbvD [14:06] wrong link! http://live.gnome.org/Pongo/Tutorial [14:07] aday, thanks for the log [14:08] aday: yep, have seen that. I was going to put that in the Guerilla testing blogpost [14:08] and thanks for the log :) [14:08] JanCBorchardt, what's the URL to your blog? [14:08] andreasn: http://jancborchardt.wordpress.com/ [14:09] only an introduction as of now, I have some drafts of earlier writings [14:12] shall we wrap things up for today? anybody fancy writing some notes for the list? [14:13] I didn’t know of the meeting, is it every Thursday at 13 UTC? [14:13] JanCBorchardt: yep. there's a launchpad team - ask mpt to add you [14:15] aday, I can do the meeting notes. [14:15] mpt: could you please add me to the Ayatana UX team? I just discovered I applied a while ago [14:15] mgunes: awesome! i would but i'm snowed under right now [14:15] JanCBorchardt: I can add you [14:15] what's your launchpad thing? [14:16] it will take some hours though; probably late tonight. [14:16] humphreybc, he's already pending there [14:16] oh okay [14:16] i'll approve him now [14:17] done [14:17] mgunes: no problem :) [14:17] humphreybc: cool, thanks [14:18] my suggestion is to use the mailing list for other things than meeting notes, by the way. let's get a bit chatty ;) [14:18] mgunes: yes, we're not utilising it enough right now === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [14:19] right i'm off guys [14:19] catch you later :) [14:19] me too [14:19] aday, right, I prefer the discourse to be more spread out and asynchronous. we'll have to rely less on the meetings that way. [14:20] me too. see you all. [14:20] humphreybc: see you! === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-brb === robbiew1 is now known as robbiew === nigelbabu is now known as nigelb === Ursinha-brb is now known as Ursinha === lag_ is now known as lag === lag is now known as Guest46722 === Guest46722 is now known as lag === cking is now known as cking-afk === ZachK_ is now known as Guest47446