[13:02] <aday> meeting time?
[13:02] <wers> Hi aday
[13:02] <aday> wers, JanCBorchardt_: hey
[13:02] <JanCBorchardt_> hey everyone
[13:02] <aday> andreasn: hola
[13:03] <andreasn> hey
[13:03] <JanCBorchardt_> andreasn, here ;)
[13:05] <aday> no mpt.. i can't stay that long today. anything in particular that people want to talk about?
[13:06] <wers> mpt's on #ayatana, though
[13:07]  * aday fetches mpt
[13:08] <mpt> hi
[13:08] <aday> mpt: hey
[13:08] <wers> brb
[13:08] <mpt> Sorry, I was so engrossed in specification writing that I forgot what time it was
[13:08] <mpt> Who's here?
[13:09] <aday> mpt: me, andreasn, wers, JanCBorchardt...
[13:09] <aday> vish: you here?
[13:09] <vish> yup , sorta
[13:10] <mpt> Anyone seen mgunes? He sent a proposed agenda
[13:10] <aday> nope
[13:12] <aday> is there anything on the agenda that people want to talk about?
[13:12] <mpt> mgunes mentioned the Update Manager redesign
[13:13] <mpt> I didn't know that blueprint existed, but I've been working on a specification <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdateHandling>
[13:13] <mpt> and devildante has implemented a couple of parts of it
[13:15] <mpt> He also mentioned the Firefox 4 "Firefox" button
[13:16] <mpt> Anyone want to say anything about that? :-)
[13:17]  * vish remembers wers' call for help! ;)
[13:17] <andreasn> I spoke with Faaborg a bit about the Firefox button at the Mozilla Summit. He said he wanted to do what made most sense for the platform
[13:17] <mpt> The problem being multiple platforms
[13:17] <mpt> Gnome Shell and Unity taking quite different approaches to this
[13:18] <andreasn> yeah, he was really concerned about that specifically.
[13:19] <aday> i'm not that familiar with the workings of gtk-application...
[13:19] <vish> mpt: chrome doesnt have a menubar either..
[13:19] <andreasn> maybe a config key, and then the netbooks variant can set "traditional-menu-whatever" to true and it would get a global menu thing
[13:19]  * thorwil says hi and skims log
[13:19] <mpt> vish, it does on Mac OS X. At UDS we talked about using the same menus when the global menu bar is available
[13:20] <andreasn> as it's currently possible to set to "old regular menu" or "new one-button menu" on windows
[13:20] <vish> mpt: yes , in OSX , but in gnome , it doesnt right now , and it seems to work pretty well.
[13:21] <mpt> So, I guess there needs to be an easy way to tell "what environment am I in? is it Gnome Shell, or Unity, or something else?"
[13:21] <andreasn> I have no idea how to solve that
[13:22] <aday> seems like this is a conversation that needs to happen between the shell and unity people
[13:23] <andreasn> indeed
[13:23] <vish> aday: why mention it as " shell and unity people " !  :s
[13:23] <aday> vish: eh?
[13:23]  * vish not really liking that there are two groups.. 
[13:24] <vish>  <aday> seems like this is a conversation that needs to happen between the shell and unity people
[13:24] <thorwil> current gnome, shell, unity ... makes me want to lean back, wait and see what happens
[13:24] <aday> vish: i don't like it either :) but that's the situation
[13:24] <vish> might be fun for the concerned parties to fight it out and come out victors but this is getting sorta ridiculous
[13:25] <aday> vish: do you know anybody working on both projects?! :)
[13:25] <andreasn> and neither of those are actually out, so what makes most sense to do _today_?
[13:25] <mpt> Unity will be released in UNE 10.10
[13:25] <andreasn> October?
[13:25] <vish> yup
[13:26] <mpt> I mean, it will be shipped by default in UNE 10.10
[13:27] <andreasn> and the desktop variant of both Suse, Fedora and Ubuntu will have the regular old panel and stuff when FF comes out in December-January
[13:28] <andreasn> and Shell is early March
[13:29] <andreasn> I like the button approach since it gives more space to actual web content, but I could live with a traditional menu for Firefox 4.0 too
[13:30] <andreasn> hey mgunes
[13:30] <mpt> hi mgunes :-)
[13:30] <mpt> The other thing mgunes raised was heuristic bug tagging
[13:30] <mpt> In <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-m-heuristics-and-bugs> I see a bunch of TODOs assigned to Canonical people
[13:30] <aday> andreasn: i couldn't, but i don't see what good us talking about this will do
[13:30] <mgunes> hi all; I'll be catching up. I have a flaky connection.
[13:31] <andreasn> I've been using heuristic bug tagging for Thunderbird a bit (on mozilla bugzilla). Working pretty good so far
[13:31] <andreasn> even though it takes a bit of time to get used to at first
[13:32] <mgunes> andreasn, is the use of it widespread on bugzilla? how many people actively tag bugs?
[13:32] <andreasn> right now it's me and Ludovic (the Thunderbird QA person) who are most active doing it
[13:32] <andreasn> and the Firefox UX people are starting to use it more and more
[13:34] <thorwil> what is the desired result, once those tags are in wide use?
[13:36] <andreasn> to be able to put more reason behind bug decisions and be able to establish a common vocabulary in bug reports
[13:36] <andreasn> and to be able to prioritize bugs, similar to what we do to, say, crashers
[13:36] <thorwil> ^^seems all that should be in the blueprint
[13:37] <aday> andreasn: do you have definitions or guidance that go along with each tag?
[13:37] <mgunes> and create some mindshare for design, since these would be among the official tags (there's a distinction in LP between a project's official bug tags and other arbitrary tags)
[13:37] <vish> actually it was mentioned somewhere..
[13:37] <andreasn> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2010/04/22/dont-talk-about-users/
[13:38] <mgunes> http://uxmag.com/strategy/quantifying-usability
[13:38] <andreasn> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tJxF8zTuLdEj9pUcxnLAemA&output=html
[13:39] <andreasn> I used it on a bug where someone was complaining about the dropdown buttons having an ugly color in the Windows theme
[13:39] <andreasn> but it was the same as all other similar controls in windows
[13:40] <andreasn> so I felt it was a case of ux-consistency, and made the bug WONTFIX
[13:40] <andreasn> then the reporter told me to fuck off, but that's a different story
[13:40] <thorwil> heh
[13:40] <mgunes> It should be relatively easier to apply it to an upstream project, since it has a narrower focus
[13:40] <andreasn> and everyone else subscribed to the bug agreed that this was indeed the sane outcome and that it should be consistent
[13:41] <andreasn> I was hoping for Ubuntu to try it out in action before I suggest applying it to GNOME
[13:41] <mgunes> since we have a large selection of packages, it might be a good idea to confine it to a specific set (desktop defaults? ayatana?), and to incoming bugs only.
[13:42] <andreasn> we ran it on uxprio-bugs on Thunderbird first
[13:42] <mgunes> hmm
[13:42] <andreasn> so yeah, start small
[13:42] <andreasn> just to learn your way around and to teach others
[13:43] <aday> gotta run, i'm afraid - see you all around
[13:43] <andreasn> because the most important part of it is to establish a way of talking in a common matter on UX issues
[13:44] <andreasn> and get away from "I think that..." or "My grandmother couldn't use that (I think)"
[13:44] <mgunes> andreasn, agreed; less bikeshedding, more common ground, hopefully
[13:44] <thorwil> i allowed myself to edit https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-m-heuristics-and-bugs
[13:45] <mgunes> mpt: do you know if ivanka considers the list of tags on the spec final, or can we add others? and can we help michael forrest with the HIG examples?
[13:46] <mgunes> I'd appreciate a log, by the way
[13:46] <andreasn> I think she wanted to start with just a couple of them, and then add the rest later
[13:46] <mpt> I just asked Michael about it, and he mumbled vaguely about getting around to it sometime. :-) I think he'd be happy if anyone took on the task themselves
[13:47] <andreasn> but it probably makes sense to end up with the same list as Faaborg in the end
[13:47] <mpt> Ivanka is away until the week after next.
[13:47] <mgunes> hmm, noted; thanks.
[13:48] <wers> back. look like I missed some stuff
[13:48]  * wers reads log
[13:48]  * mgunes needs log
[13:49] <andreasn> here is the bug btw https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=577032
[13:49] <JanCBorchardt_> what about those bugs tagged »usability« (most often by the reporters themselves): https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=usability
[13:49] <mgunes> I guess the examples would have to be based on the "old" HIG for now?
[13:50] <mpt> JanCBorchardt_, that's not really a useful tag, because it can apply to so many different types of bug
[13:51] <andreasn> JanCBorchardt_, maybe they can be converted to more specific heuristic keywords. "Usability" is so broad
[13:51] <mgunes> I think those bugs might mostly be good candidates for initial evaluation beyond incoming bugs
[13:52] <JanCBorchardt_> mpt: yep, exactly. I meant in a way of re-tagging
[13:52] <JanCBorchardt_> or many times it may not be usability-related at all
[13:55] <mpt> ah right
[13:56] <mpt> So, are we done?
[13:57] <thorwil> "Should we push towards making more active use of the mailing list, or other resources such as the wiki or an IRC channel?"
[13:57] <mgunes> mpt, I guess I can find michael on #dx, if I am to take up the HIG examples part?
[13:58] <mpt> mgunes, he's michaelforrest, online but not in any channels at the moment.
[14:00] <JanCBorchardt_> if any IRC channel, just #ayatana?
[14:00] <mpt> #ayatana suits me
[14:00] <JanCBorchardt_> if we need any feedback from developers, they are there
[14:00] <mgunes> mpt, thanks
[14:01] <JanCBorchardt_> or what are other IRC channels to join that are similar?
[14:01] <thorwil> ok, gone -> coffee :)
[14:01] <wers> I hope, there's a publicly accessible Google Wave
[14:01] <wers> stuff are much easier to track and organize there
[14:02] <mgunes> on the topic of resources, I think I can do an initial wiki home page similar to..
[14:02] <mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
[14:03] <wers> I hope aday's still here. he's good at wikis
[14:04] <wers> have you heard of Novell Pulse? is it going to be like an open source Google Wave?
[14:04] <mgunes> does anyone use Delicious or some other public bookmarking service? It might be a good idea to gather links of interest that we come across, both among ourselves and with the broader community
[14:06] <mgunes> wers, sounds similar to Etherpad
[14:09] <wers> mgunes, hmm yep
[14:09] <wers> I dunno.. there's just something about etherpad that doesnt make me so comfortable
[14:09]  * mgunes skims log
[14:10] <wers> who's gonna be in GNOME.Asia this weekend?
[14:10] <wers> I'm flying to Taiwan tomorrow