[02:34] Is the release day still Sunday? [02:39] Muscovy: should be :) [02:45] Muscovy: It'll be released on Monday, the 16th. === april_g1 is now known as loonycookie [05:36] anyone from the manual team around ? [05:50] I suppose I'm manual team, so yes. [05:55] Hello, just a quick question, as far as writing a manual chapter goes, are we only allowed to use / write about applications that are part of the default installation? [06:01] I believe so. [06:01] At the present at least, there's no "other neat applications" section. [06:01] The closest is mentioning things like Wine and codecs. [06:02] I would probably try to stay away from writing all new content now [06:02] Though a section akin to the software centre's Featured Applications might be a good idea for the 10.10 manual. [06:04] Is e2 ready to go for monday? [06:05] I believe it is. [06:05] wonderful! [06:09] Thanks all, Im looking for a backup applicaiton, and there several in the repos, but none are installed by default. [06:10] Which, I really dont understand why not. [06:10] hi everyone :) [06:10] i was wondering, do you have any plans of writing documentation for ubuntu netbook edition? [06:11] I think a netbook edition was talked about, but right now we're focusing on getting lucid-edition2 and maverick out [06:12] perhaps in the future? [06:12] that's what I was told as well, focus on v2 then 10.10 [06:12] ok. i was actually interested in helping out with that. [06:12] is there anything that still needs doing for maverick? [06:13] Well, the Devs are doing allot of work on it still april_g its not do out until October. [06:13] yes, maverick has lots to do [06:13] However, if you wnat to Join the Testing teams, you can get familiar with it at the early stages. [06:13] i meant in terms of the manual. :) i'm not really sure about the process yet, but i'd really like to get into that [06:14] thanks KE1HA , i'll look into that :) [06:15] They have have to finish the release before we could really start writing, I guess there will be commonalties, but safer to wait I'd think. [06:15] april_g: considering sending out an email to the ubuntu-manual mailing list, I'm not sure where we stand on Maverick stuff yet [06:15] thanks brandonj i'll do that as well :) [06:17] On thing that will definitely help you is reading the styles guide and playing around with the markup lang. and getting familiar [06:18] Tex is all new to me, so been learning allot from the guide. [06:21] I'm new to Tex as well. Im still messing around with it :) [06:21] thanks for the info guys! i appreciate it :) [06:22] i hope you don't mind if i just hang out here on irc [06:22] :) [06:27] the more the merrier [06:27] unless you turn out to be a jerk [06:27] =P [06:28] It's nice to see activity in here, sometimes its rather quiet. I saw your e-mail the other day about joining (alt least I think it was yours) , so welcome aboard. [06:32] brandonj i'm pretty nice, i think :) i haven't been told otherwise [06:32] lol [06:32] thanks KE1HA [06:33] Ubuntu should have some sort of tutorial at first boot. [06:34] A little walkthrough. [06:34] You were a tech-0writer for a tech-dev company right? I spent many year in tech as well. [06:34] Whoop tech-writer .. [06:34] Like, showing the user how to open the browser. [06:34] And playing a song. [06:34] Making a odt document. [06:35] KE1HA yes, for several years [06:35] You know, I wonder if we could see the manual become a part of the example content. [06:35] Yeah, like take the Ubuntu tour or something? [06:35] , [06:35] Omega like a quick start guide? [06:35] Install a package. [06:35] Yes. [06:35] But, interactive. [06:35] It 'tracks' your progress. [06:35] I've tried to make those before, Im not too savvy at it, but they are neat. [06:36] I think it needs one of those 'Welcome' videos like OS x [06:36] [06:36] And tell the user about free replacements to some windows (or mac) apps that they are used to. [06:36] Omega having a tutorial like that would be cool, especially for those new to the system :) [06:36] It would help a lot. [06:36] its a good idea Omega [06:36] it would make ubuntu far less intimidating [06:36] Maybe I should start a project like that. [06:36] I would be interested in working on something like that [06:36] Cool. [06:37] We'll call it Ubuntu Tour or something like that. [06:37] I'm open to suggestions :) [06:37] I was never very good at thinking up names [06:37] Well, woking the Ubuntu answers on Launchpad, and the ubuntu channel, there 10 to maby 15 topis that are beat to death by new users every day, simple things, I think that would certainly help with that problem. [06:38] And, it can let the user set up a launchpad account and submit his/her first bug :) [06:38] Like how do I see / get my files on my windows box? [06:39] And maybe explain what the "Home Folder" is, when they are only used to "My Documents" [06:39] How do I get my music to play from windows, and it goes on an on an on. Simple things. [06:39] Indeed. [06:39] It is those things that make the biggest impact on users. [06:39] Omega: I'd join that project. :D [06:39] Omega: you should start this up [06:40] I'm suprised nobody has done something like that before, actually [06:40] definitely Omega. i'd join this project [06:40] Well, what should we call it guys? [06:40] For idea, sit in the ubuntu channel fer about a weeks, and make a little matrix, on topics v.s. ho many time they are asked, that would eb a good starting point. [06:41] Mhm. [06:41] It would. [06:41] tutelage! [06:41] Also, I'd like to look at how UM is organized [06:41] Ubuntu Tour sounds good, if ordinary. [06:42] I think another area that needs help is, showing people "where to get help", there so many resources, people get lost in where to go. [06:42] Indeed. [06:43] So, #ubuntu-tour is open [06:43] But, we can also hang out here [06:43] I think theres a Ubuntu-beginners channel already, may be worth while to explore what they done as well. [06:46] Omega, Organized, I would really like to see that structure also, but I guess that's the nature of open source, if can be very free-flowing. [06:47] Eh, I'm an anarchist, but organization is never bad :) [06:47] I hope you all don't have to proof anything I write, geezz, just looked at all those typos' LOL Not good ! [06:49] I' not looking for the head of the ship or anything, just an overview would be nice. [06:50] Take for instance, documentation on its on, There's the Manual, there's wiki's, systems docs, How-To's personal wiki's the forums, there's allot of stuff. [06:50] exactly KE1HA. it gets rather overwhelming [06:51] Then, the different distros, their cross overs, uniqueness etc etc .. somewhere there needs to be the Pond where all the water comes from :-) [06:51] A wiki page or something would probably be the best start. [06:52] If people don't like the Ubuntu wiki, we could always throw a Mediawiki or something up. [06:53] I think ubuntu manual will do for now [06:53] err [06:53] ubuntu wiki [06:53] I honestly dont know what the right answer is or could be. It's just a vast subject. [06:54] Hmm. [06:54] I think the Documentations Team is the top level, as it branches to Systems, and Applications. Maybe that's where the manual should branch from, not sure. [06:55] But it seems focused on Ubuntu alone, then there's the Distro's. [06:55] What programs/subjects should the tour cover? [06:55] The manual would take a lot of converting, If another distro used it, I imagine it would mostly be for the Tex. [06:55] getting online [06:56] Firefox for sure. [06:56] installing/updating packages [06:56] might be good to include something about the organization of the files on ubuntu [06:56] Software centre, a bit of Nautilus. [06:56] and getting additional help [06:56] http://openetherpad.org/GUNcK2dx75 [06:56] We can all add. [06:56] Basic How too's fer sure. Instll Unix, Solaris or FreeBSD on a VM, then write down the questions you get trying to do things, that's what new users to Ubuntu are faced with. [06:57] damn, why am I always pink? [06:58] I'd say, how yo just opened that pad would be a good one :-) Never new that could be done. [07:01] I can't get in the Pad thingy [07:01] april_g1, how did you get in there ? [07:02] you're already on there KE1HA :) i see your name === april_g1 is now known as april_g [07:03] Do you type just in the main frame ? [07:03] Yes. [07:03] Ok, never use this before, its pretty neat. === april_g1 is now known as april_g === april_g1 is now known as april_g [08:11] Good brainstorm session all, look fer you tomorrow. [08:11] Indeed. [08:16] i just realized we haven't come up with a name yet. :) should we stick with ubuntu-tour? [08:17] I like it, but I'm not sure. [08:17] When in doubt, I'm going to look up synonyms. [08:18] ok :) coz i don't know what to use as the name for the LP team. [08:18] so.. i think i'll just wait for the others on that [08:22] Probably best, yeah. [08:24] Hmm, I guess ubuntu-tour. [08:35] +1 from me, it identifies well with the purpose. [08:41] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tour this should do for now [08:41] we can update the details: ownership, description (to include goals and other pertinent information) tomorrow [08:41] should we have the mailing list hosted on launchpad or do you guys prefer having it hosted somewhere else? [08:42] Launchpad is fine, IMO. [08:45] ok. i've also filed in a request for the mailing list on LP [08:46] I'll play around with a few logo ideas before I go to bed. [08:47] Oh, mailing list is up already it seems. [08:49] great! [10:06] Man you all are flying though this :-) [10:06] april_g, How did you create the LP ? [10:09] KE1HA: i justwent to launchpad.net and there was an option to create a team :) [10:10] i'll leave the creation of the project Omega :) [10:10] Easy Peezy :-) [10:10] I've not created one before, so was curious. [10:12] KE1HA i thought you guys went to sleep already :) [10:14] No, Im working on a Desktop-App-Testing matrix, looking at the cross-overs from UB / XUB/ EDUB [10:17] KE1HA: sounds interesting, care to tell me more? [10:17] april_g: its only 5:17PM where i am [10:17] :) [10:17] nisshh we're about the same :) [10:18] april_g: ah ok [10:18] Yes sure it's the QA team, we test ISO's and Desktop applications on new Distrobuitons. Hold on, will get the linky [10:18] KE1HA: ah, your on the QA team? cool :) [10:18] Yeah, its allot of fun. [10:18] http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com' [10:19] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures [10:19] nice [10:19] interesting :) [10:20] nisshh are you somewhere in asia? [10:20] KE1HA: i thought about joining to QA team, but i decided manual + dev-manual + bugsquad + others is enough :) [10:20] We're adding more and more Apps to the Desktop Apps fer testing, and there's nothign yet on Xubuntu and EDubuntu, so im working on that. [10:20] april_g: australia :) [10:20] KE1HA: sounds awesome :) [10:21] KE1HA the QA thing looks really nice. :) altho i think i'll stick to the docs for now, seeing as I'm still new to all this [10:21] Yeah, I was on the Hall of Fame for about three days Wooo-Hoo :-).. had the most tested ISO's fer a week :-) [10:22] We also QA docs. [10:22] nice [10:23] doc QA might be something i can help with :) [10:23] Yeah, I think its importand, the whoel End-User experience starts when they Install, and if it falls over, its a negative impact from then on aout. [10:23] Important. [10:23] yea [10:24] although most end-users despise docs [10:24] Yeah, definately, they only want a doc when somethign goes wrong. [10:24] nisshh ya. lol. they only consult docs when problems start piling up [10:24] jenkins: i added you to the contributors for pytask for that apport stuff [10:24] The they want it, right now, and only the Fix, no fluff. [10:24] yea [10:24] thanks nisshh, I will give you a hand with the debian rules file I am getting there with quickshot's one [10:25] jenkins: also, have you figured out that rules file stuff yet? [10:25] ah cool [10:25] Oh hey, Quickshots also works on Xubuntu. [10:25] Installed that yesterday to test it. [10:25] KE1HA: cool thanks, did you get quickshot form the ppa? [10:26] KE1HA: nice, wouldnt surprise me if it did though, since Xubuntu uses A LOT of GNOME stuff from Ubuntu [10:26] brb [10:26] yep it does, i have yet to test it though, we are supporting kde and ldxe as well when i get around to it. eventually it would be nice to have a qt gui [10:27] yea [10:28] jenkins, yes, just added the pps stuff, and installed, worked perfect. [10:28] thats good to hear :) [10:28] Opps PPA, not PPS [10:29] I've asked to be the Docs Lead fer Xubuntu, so if that pans out, gonna be buggin you gus allot about settign up bzr :-) [10:29] That's why Im ding this Matrix also, I want to Identify all Standard Apps that happen at install, and ensure there's Docs covering all of them. [10:30] for UB / XUB and EDUB [10:31] I just finished a New UB VM install, zsync-ing EDUB now, so will have all 3 in VM's for Docs. [10:31] With no extra packages that is, as my UB install has a few extras, so it's no good fer docs and writing. [10:33] KE1HA: that sounds cool but in the next release there will be no need for bzr to use quickshot. but he is welcome to have a chat with us he can also e-mail quickshotdevs@list.launchpad.net as there are only two active devs at the moment [10:33] 2 Devs for Quickshot ? [10:34] devlopers working on quickshot [10:34] rr ok .. understan. Why did you all descide to make Quickshot, does the standard screenshot app not do what's needed ? [10:35] KE1HA: it was first developed to be used to take the screenshots for the manual :) [10:35] KE1HA: since we have to take alot of very specific ones [10:35] well if you took a screenshot of you desktop now it would look different to mine. it means we can get the same screenshots in different langauges and upload them to the server for review. [10:36] also at the same resolution with minimal work by the user [10:36] For consistent shots all the time, makes sense. [10:36] and generally the error rate has been low. [10:36] They look nice, works well [10:37] So is Quickshot going to replace screenshot ? [10:37] thanks, well we are rewriting it at the moment as that release was rather a rush. [10:37] do you mean replace the default screenshot program? [10:37] yes [10:38] no it will not, quickshot is for projects to specify screenshots to be taken [10:38] for their docs/webpages [10:39] Cool, hopefully it will be come the standard for all Web-Pages and Manuals [10:40] and docs :) thats the long term goal and across every distor [10:40] I got a quesiton about Wiki ... you know whaen you seach for an App / version of an app / package, the 9.04 / 9.10 / 9.10 / 10.04 TAB appear at the top, how can we add those ot out personal wiki's ? [10:42] Or I guess you could say, those TABS at the top of personal Wiki (Planet, Partners, Support etc) can we change them to somethign else ? [10:42] can you show an example page i don't look at the wiki very much [10:44] http://imagebin.org/109740 [10:45] See the TABS there toward the TOP right, Ubuntu, Community, Support, Partners etc etc those tabs [10:46] I am not sure that is possible you could add a menu bar like the manual wiki does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual [10:47] Ok, just wondering, may be part of the main page that we can't edit. Would be nice though. [10:48] yea I think it is part of the main page, their may be a way but i don't know of onw [10:48] one [10:49] r [10:49] I like that Image Pastebin, that's things neat too. [10:50] yep very usefull [10:50] So was that community notepad, that's great fer meetings. [10:51] etherpad? [10:51] Im not sure what it was called hold on, i BM'ed it. [10:51] Yes, that's it. [10:59] be back later today [10:59] cya [11:01] TTUL [11:23] vish, flan_: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e [11:24] thorwil: ooh! i like the first row second one..! :) what size is that? [11:25] vish: 48 [11:26] nice.. [11:27] thorwil: lol , you fell into the trap of using a camera ;p [11:27] ty. though, this stacking always seem to bring some unrest with it [11:27] thorwil: snap! [11:28] thorwil: exactly , we know about the app , so it makes sense , but for someone not familiar with it might take it to be a background chooser.. [11:28] vish: no, i just show the obvious and cheap after failing seeing once again that trying to be more sophisticated leads to a mess ;) [11:29] * thorwil fails at sentence construction [11:29] :) === april_g is now known as aprilg [18:48] godbyk, ping [20:25] hi jenkins [20:25] hey c7p [20:33] I don't suppose anyone here is registered as an android developer with google? [20:39] *registered with google [20:43] so the e2 will be released tomorrow ? [20:44] jenkins: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e [20:47] thorwil: cool some more ideas I like the last one on the bottom for the website. would you be able to do a stack of screenshots like in the original idea so that the corner is nearest the viewer? and put a camera on on top if that makes sense? [20:47] c7p: in theory i don't know how it is going [20:47] ChrisWoollard: ^ ? [20:48] jenkins: i'm not quite following [20:49] no problem i will do a sktech [20:49] jenkins: please think "icon" and rip the word "add" out of your language for this here ;) [20:55] hello [20:56] hi ChrisWoollard [20:56] Are we all set for a release tomorrow [20:56] ? [20:56] We are probably almost there [20:56] thorwil: I am :) I am probably the worst person to try and do this for, thanks for persevering, http://imagebin.org/109811 see the corner circled. rotate that so it is facing the viewer so at 45 degrees to its current position and put a camera on top like the one you used in http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e [20:56] ChrisWoollard: great! [20:56] I am awaiting a screenshot from humphreybc [20:57] very good [20:58] I also think i could proof read a couple more chapters too. but nothing major [20:59] are there any un fixed bugs ? [21:00] yeah, how's the bug situation? [21:00] let me have a look [21:00] 4 left by the looks of it [21:00] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/613266 [21:00] Launchpad bug 613266 in ubuntu-manual "Mixed use of "applications" and "programs"" [Undecided,New] [21:00] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/609085 [21:01] Launchpad bug 609085 in ubuntu-manual "Inappropriate NetworkManager screenshot" [Medium,New] [21:01] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/582361 [21:01] Launchpad bug 582361 in ubuntu-manual "apt-get doesn't mention dist-upgrade" [Medium,Confirmed] [21:01] jenkins: i don't get how you want that rotation. but i'll log out soon. maybe i'll try a stack like that another day [21:01] there is also https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/561883 [21:01] Launchpad bug 561883 in ubuntu-manual "missing tags" [Low,In progress] [21:01] ok thanks thorwil [21:02] I will try and draw one my self I should learn inkscape [21:02] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/562439 [21:02] Launchpad bug 562439 in ubuntu-manual "doubling informations" [Medium,Confirmed] [21:03] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/584772 [21:03] Launchpad bug 584772 in ubuntu-manual "File system structure needs descriptions" [Undecided,In progress] [21:03] thats all i can see [21:04] also it appears there are a bunch that are confirmed [21:04] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=Confirmed [21:06] bug 584772 is the one that ben is workin on. He promised he would do it tonight [21:06] Launchpad bug 584772 in ubuntu-manual "File system structure needs descriptions" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/584772 [21:08] the bug regarding apt-get might be a non-issue once most of the command line stuff has been removed [21:08] I will have a look at some of the bugs in an hour [21:09] that is for maverick though, not e2 [21:10] I'll be running things through spell-check and trying to add some more index entries later today, too. [21:10] We should see if we can get those final bugs fixed, however. [21:10] Have you pestered Ben and Jason recently about the bugs they've committed to? [21:11] ah, okay [21:12] http://imagebin.org/109820 another quickshot icon idea any thoughts vish? [21:13] or anyone [21:13] I don't find that one too clear, wheras the others clearly say "screenshots". [21:13] i talked to ben earlier today [21:13] which one said screenshots to you Muscovy? [21:14] Pretty much all the one with desktops of some sort. [21:14] I'll go back and pick the ones I liked best. [21:15] thanks that would be good [21:15] I like the top right one in http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e [21:16] Or the bottom right. [21:16] godbyk: I have talked to ben. He said he would do it tonight. [21:17] ChrisWoollard: Okay, cool. [21:17] thanks Muscovy I am going to test in #ubuntu-uk to see what people think those icons imply the program does [21:18] I don't know about Jason though [21:19] godbyk: Can you have a look at the outstanding bugs list to see if any are for you [21:20] Can you also look at the confirmed list. I think that might have been overlooked. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=Confirmed [21:20] I went through the list of bugs targeted to e2 that weren't already fixed/committed/etc. and fixed a few yesterday. [21:20] I think the remaining ones may need a closer look. [21:21] The ones I see left are bugs 562439, 582361, 609085, 561883, and 584772. [21:21] Launchpad bug 562439 in ubuntu-manual "doubling informations" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/562439 [21:21] Launchpad bug 582361 in ubuntu-manual "apt-get doesn't mention dist-upgrade" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582361 [21:21] Launchpad bug 609085 in ubuntu-manual "Inappropriate NetworkManager screenshot" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/609085 [21:21] Launchpad bug 561883 in ubuntu-manual "missing tags" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/561883 [21:21] Thanks, manualbot! :) [21:24] I will start to look at them in a while. I will change the status to in progress as I do them. So if anybody else wants to help. Feel free. [21:30] 'kay, thanks, ChrisWoollard! [21:30] I'm fixing 'lunch' right now, and then I have to mow the yard. But when I've finished with that, I'll be back to work on the manual. [21:30] lovely [21:30] thx [21:31] I always think yards are concrete :D [21:36] jenkins: I always think gardens contain flowers or vegetables. :D [21:37] lol, i think of grass, flowers and vegetables in a garden [21:45] godbyk-android, ping [21:45] He might be mowing the lawn [21:47] no hes mowing the yard :P [21:47] daker: pong [21:47] eating lunch still. [21:48] daker: I got your email. [21:48] godbyk, oki [21:48] godbyk: RE: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/585909 [21:48] Launchpad bug 585909 in ubuntu-manual "Indentation error "Copying part of a page", p.56" [Undecided,Confirmed] [21:49] Is that just missing a \noindent tag? [21:49] sonicbadger: If it's the continuation of a the same paragraph, then you can use \noindent at the beginning of the line to suppress indentation. [21:49] I am ChrisWoollard by the way. I am on another computer [21:50] If it's the start of a new paragraph, though, it should be indented. [21:50] Ok. I haven't read it yet so I don't know [21:51] come on people we need to think of a quickshot icon http://imagebin.org/109830 was suggested by popey and thorwil and vish have suggested some. any ideas for one are very much appreciated [21:52] Here's one of mine that only a few people saw: http://www.flickr.com/photos/muscovyx/4886602265/ [21:53] The concept is to show and Ubuntu-ish desktop with a photo lens around it. [21:54] The lens could do with work. [21:55] That's what I thought too [21:55] The lens [21:55] Muscovy: that might work,,,,, [21:55] I had not seen that [21:55] Maybe a combination of yours and the other one [21:55] http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e [21:56] look at the last one [21:56] Muscovy: could I have the original of that please? [21:56] But with a lens around the 'bigger desktop' [21:56] Sure, what's a good site that'll allow svgs? [21:56] luke@ubuntu-manual.org is fine [21:56] Ah right. [21:56] did you guys hear about #ubuntu-tour :) [21:57] Omega: I like the idea of a lense around a desktop screen [21:57] nope [21:58] may be i got the wrong end of the stick is that not similar to the manual but in a different writing style? [21:59] The big feature was interactivity. [21:59] Like detecting when the software center is opened. [21:59] Drawing arrows to point to stuff, etc. [21:59] thnaks for the e-mail Muscovy [21:59] You're welcome. [21:59] would the arrow be on the screenshot or is this an app? [22:00] An ap. [22:01] o right thats quite a cool idea, maybe it could be an accompaniment to the manual? I have no clue if that would work [22:01] We were thinking refer to the manual as a more technical guide, and use the tour as a sort of scratch-the-surface process. [22:01] nice sounds good [22:02] If the manual had a web edition, for instance, we could even do a "learn more" link for each topic covered. [22:02] Or maybe the document viewer can open certain pages, I dunno. [22:03] that would work, i have added it to my saved channels, I don't think I have the skills or time to help unfortunalty [22:03] Most of the work is in the Etherpad document. [22:04] Basically we've just done concept stuff. [22:06] how on earth do you draw an arrow across someone's desktop? I mean there is all the the different display resolutions [22:06] I was thinking just for panel stuff. [22:06] We could get the resolution settings and work from that. [22:06] It probably wouldn't be 'across the desktop', just render a red arrow right where they have to go [22:07] Wait, did I actually say "across"? [22:07] also, there'd be a picture in the app itself, so they know what to look for that way [22:09] o right I got the impression it would be very interactive with your desktop and fit in well a picture would make it easier [22:11] I think the interacting between the tour and the desktop would realistically be various apps saying "yep, this stage is done" for launching, setup, etc. [22:12] in some cases I think there is an opportunity to get a bit more sophisticated than that [22:12] the only issue I can see with a picture is that people might think it is the real program. it was an argument used on the docs list for not using screenshots. As a user i see no problem but it may happen with a very new user, i could see my dad trying to click the picture. he removed the wireless keyboard/mouse dongle and plugged in his pen drive. he then spend 30 mins moaning the pc did not work. >:o . When i look [22:13]