[01:06] <elky> akgraner, remind me which day we need to embarrass you on?
[01:09] <akgraner> elky it would be the last day of UDS :-P
[01:09] <akgraner> just remember  - paybacks
[01:16] <akgraner> we'll delay embarrassing you until that week as well :-)
[01:21] <elky> akgraner, oh, but my birthday isn't until /after/ UDS :D
[01:22] <rww> unbirthday!
[01:23] <Pendulum> elky: shhh... you weren't supposed to clue akgraner in :P
[01:23] <akgraner> rww, +1 unbirthdays
[01:23] <akgraner> woo hoo
[01:24] <Pendulum> akgraner: you mean if elky finds a way to embarrass you, you won't fly to Australia for payback? :P
[01:24] <akgraner> no I will
[01:24] <akgraner> :-) Australia is on my list of places
[01:24] <akgraner> :-)
[01:25] <rww> ... to avoid due to spiders?
[01:25] <MichelleQ> rww: I like the way you think
[01:25] <MichelleQ> both with the unbirthdays, and the spiders
[01:27] <Pendulum> cake!
[01:27] <Pendulum> we'll have to have cake!
[01:28] <Pendulum> (sorry, I am currently dieting. This puts cake on my mind a lot ;) )
[01:33] <elky> Mmm, cake
[01:53] <MichelleQ> Pendulum: I'm good with cake.
[01:53] <MichelleQ> I'll even agree to make said cake.
[01:54] <rww> I made vegan cake once, mainly to avoid fiddling with eggs :(
[01:56] <Pendulum> vegan cake isn't actually that hard to make
[01:56] <rww> tastes pretty good, too
[02:20] <MichelleQ> yeah, it's not too hard at all
[02:20] <MichelleQ> Betty Crocker does an amazing GFCF cake mix, too.  Can't swear to the eggage though
[10:08] <czajkowski> hypatia: is there any tag specific to a hackerspace?
[10:08] <czajkowski> one generic one ?
[10:10] <hypatia> for blogging? twitter?
[10:10] <hypatia> i usually use #hackerspaces on twitter
[10:13] <czajkowski> ok
[10:13] <czajkowski> tis kinda long but good to know
[10:13] <czajkowski> we;re setting one up in my home town Limerick
[10:13] <hypatia> i think !hs works on identica. also
[10:13] <hypatia> cool!
[10:13] <hypatia> make sure you go over the docs on the wiki
[10:13] <hypatia> the design patterns stuff is awesome
[10:14] <czajkowski> oh?
[10:14] <hypatia> 05:07 < danni> but something that's come out of my therapy is the need to understand your  boundaries and desires and needs, and to be able to communicate them
[10:14] <hypatia> 05:09 < danni> but it's not easy, because it gives someone a roadmap both to what you want,  but also to what makes you vulnerable
[10:14] <hypatia> aw fuck
[10:14] <hypatia> that was not the paste buffer i meant to paste
[10:14] <czajkowski> oh and I also get to meet david rook soon as he's giving talk/demos at my event
[10:14] <hypatia> excuse my french
[10:14] <hypatia> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Documentation
[10:15] <hypatia> was the link i meant to paste
[10:15] <czajkowski> thanks
[10:15] <valorie> hypatia, if that was private -- might want to edit the posted logs
[10:16] <hypatia> can we edit them?
[10:16] <hypatia> it was private :/
[10:16] <valorie> I don't know whom to ask, but I would think so
[10:16] <valorie> in such cases
[10:16] <rww> it's done by Canonical, and goes live at a couple of minutes past the hour, and is cached into Google and such, so... you have 45 minutes :\
[10:16] <hypatia> i'll check with the person whose logs i just pasted
[10:18]  * hypatia checked, it's all good
[10:19] <hypatia> ugh logging
[10:19] <rww> indeed
[10:21] <czajkowski> accidents happen
[10:21] <hypatia> s'true :)
[10:22]  * hypatia just prefers her accidents to not be indexed by the googles
[10:22] <czajkowski> true
[10:24] <czajkowski> I need breakie!
[10:48] <czajkowski> food has been had
[18:12] <ghost> ingles?
[18:14] <maco> si, ingles
[18:19] <IdleOne> ghost: you live in Boston
[18:34] <pleia2> interesting http://wiki.debian.org/DebianWomen/Statistics
[18:35] <pleia2> (of course since this is debian it only counts women who have/had actual changelog entries in packages in the archive)
[18:40] <IdleOne> is there a reason for even needing to have those stats?
[18:41] <IdleOne> I mean for me it doesn't make a difference if the DD is male or female
[18:41] <nigelb> pleia2: just 10? :(
[18:41] <nigelb> 1%
[18:42] <pleia2> nigelb: yeah, numbers for actual developers in projects are still pretty low
[18:42] <pleia2> IdleOne: we have statisics like that too, these are -women projects and to track our effectiveness over the years you need to have numbers
[18:42] <nigelb> pleia2: but comparitively ubuntu is not so well off either :(
[18:42] <pleia2> nigelb: *nod*
[18:43] <nigelb> I only know of <10 women developers on Ubuntu (i.e. with actual uploads)
[18:43] <pleia2> I think lucidfox and I are the only two on that list
[18:43] <pleia2> and I don't count on the ubuntu side
[18:43] <maco> lucidfox, me, yulia, sarah, leann, and rhonda are all the women with upload rights in ubuntu
[18:43] <nigelb> pleia2: rhonda too for the debian side
[18:43] <IdleOne> pleia2: yes I understand the need for having numbers and keeping stats it just seems like another tool for the haters to use against women.
[18:44] <nigelb> maco: hrm, yulia? (why doesn't that name ring a bell?), also add lucidfox
[18:44] <pleia2> IdleOne: so we should keep hiding so we don't get trolled?
[18:44] <IdleOne> NO
[18:44] <pleia2> IdleOne: the problem is "the haters", not us
[18:44] <IdleOne> I agree
[18:45] <maco> nigelb: she's never been in the channels afaik, but she's in ~ubuntu-dev
[18:45] <nigelb> IdleOne: its about objectively measuring progress
[18:45] <pleia2> we need to track metrics, if someone uses them to hurt us it's not our fault, we're not going to hide or compromise what we need anymore
[18:45] <nigelb> maco: Ah.
[18:46] <nigelb> maco: wait, I didn't see you had already put lucidfox on the list :D
[18:46]  * MarkDude reminds that *haters* means you are suceeding
[18:46]  * nigelb notes now we'll have skat and allison to the list.
[18:47] <maco> nigelb: my list was people with upload rights
[18:47] <maco> working for canonical is not an automatic "in" for lp:~ubuntu-dev
[18:47] <nigelb> maco: I know.  I'm presuming they might end up getting there.  I maybe wrong though.
[18:49] <IdleOne> I think the stats are misleading anyway. I don't believe that greater numbers produce greater quality of work. Yes there are more male devs but does that mean they are putting out better packages then the women. I wish that a project could be judged by the product and not by who worked on the product.
[18:50] <IdleOne> if I am not making myself clear I apologize
[18:50] <nigelb> IdleOne: The Debian environment doesn't work that way per se.
[18:56] <vish> stats are nice to keep a momentum... [hmm, I maybe a bit unaware of this] but how exactly are we getting /more/ women to work on Ubuntu/Debian ? i.e. are we actively trying to bring more women in ?
[18:58] <maco> vish: theoretically, thats what UW does...
[19:01] <vish> maco: afaik, UW is about creating an environment for women to feel comfortable to work in, which has a chain effect and draws in more women, am I right?
[19:01] <pleia2> vish: some of us do actively bring our friends here to participate, and advertise the project at conferences and events
[19:02] <vish> pleia2: ah right, i forgot about the conferences..  :)
[19:02] <czajkowski> aye there are very few women over here but all who meet me get told about this group
[19:02] <czajkowski> I also mention it at any talk I go to
[19:02] <czajkowski> but many dont want to join a women centric group, and I dont force it
[19:03] <pleia2> IdleOne: you're welcome to believe that diversity does not improve quality of projects, but there are countless studies that prove your belief wrong
[19:03] <pleia2> on the individual level it doesn't matter, of course
[19:04] <pleia2> I care about increasing diversity to improve the project, and I like working with other women (and I like working with men too!)
[19:04] <pleia2> being the only one feels lousy
[19:04] <pleia2> or a "token"
[19:04] <IdleOne> pleia2: I don't think I am expressing myself properly. So I am going to be quiet and listen.
[19:08] <pleia2> honestly I wish people cared less about my gender too, but they do care, and we're here to handle living in the real world :)
[19:08] <pleia2> we'll get there eventually, and then we can get rid of -women projects!
[19:09] <czajkowski> IdleOne: it's not just in UW or Ubuntu, in every project, course/college/school I've always see stats on male/women ratios it's not a biggie
[19:09] <czajkowski> pleia2: +1 :D
[19:13] <akgraner> pleia2, speaking of Debian  - I need some suggestions for cross-collaboration on the news front...any ideas
[19:14] <akgraner> I need to find some caffeine  - my creative energy low light is on
[19:16] <pleia2> akgraner: debian news is a tricky beast, I'm delighted that they started working on it again but their tools are still hard to use and the organization of the team is somewhat unclear, I think the first step would be defining a sharing medium (which hopefully is not a git repo :))
[19:17] <czajkowski> heh
[19:19] <akgraner> pleia2, I agree since you know more about that side - what sharing medium would you suggest?  I am sure and etherpad and/or googledocs would not go over well but what about a wiki page?
[19:19] <pleia2> akgraner: a wiki page would probably be an acceptable compromise (I agree with your analysis of google docs/etherpad)
[19:20] <akgraner> a wiki should give diffs and who changed what etc
[19:20] <czajkowski> googledocs isn't very open..
[19:20] <pleia2> not at all
[19:20] <akgraner> czajkowski, I know :-) that's why I said it wouldn't fly
[19:21] <czajkowski> a wiki is a good way of things or etherpad but I know a lotta folks have issues depending onn what kinda version you have
[19:21] <czajkowski> akgraner: just saying :)
[19:21] <akgraner> :-)
[22:13]  * czajkowski hugs pleia2 , thank you
[22:14]  * pleia2 hugs
[22:14] <pleia2> I'm excited!
[22:15] <pleia2> it really is nice to see something come of that session
[22:15] <pleia2> and banners, yaaaay, go very far to make us look more professional
[22:15] <czajkowski> yup
[22:15] <czajkowski> but it's taken a good few months to get that sorted
[22:15] <czajkowski> so I am pleased
[22:15] <czajkowski> lotta emailing and sourcing and planning
[22:15] <czajkowski> so glad I could get that mail/post out today
[22:16] <czajkowski> ordered new moo cards
[22:16] <pleia2> :)
[22:16] <czajkowski> so handy to have saves me spelling my name out
[22:16] <czajkowski> here have a card
[22:16] <czajkowski> email is on it
[22:16] <czajkowski> ;)
[22:20] <pleia2> hehe
[22:31] <maco> czajkowski: so thats tee see aych eh eye...
[22:32] <czajkowski> maco: I think I was the only 4 year old that could spell a russian and a polish name
[22:32] <maco> hehe
[22:35] <MichelleQ> czajkowski: Mike told me the other day he heard your last name pronounced for the first time, and that he never would have sorted out.  I told him that we have the same problem only in reverse.
[22:35] <MichelleQ> One would be surprised at the number of ways in which hall can be misspelled.
[22:35] <czajkowski> MichelleQ: heheh so true
[22:36] <MichelleQ> My personal favorite... and I kid you not.  I got a junk mail addressed "Dear Mrs. Hell"
[22:37] <czajkowski> heh I get Mr. Czajkowski
[22:37] <valorie> there are days when maybe that fits, MichelleQ?
[22:37] <czajkowski> Computer engineer
[22:37] <MichelleQ> valorie: most definitely
[22:37] <czajkowski> as dad is Mr Czajkowski Electronics enginner
[22:38] <valorie> IdleOne: reading up, it sounds as if you are saying "show me the code"
[22:38] <valorie> in nicer language
[22:38] <IdleOne> valorie: not sure what you mean by that
[22:39] <czajkowski> http://pix.ie/czajkowski/1873658/size/800   <------- Mothership
[22:39] <MichelleQ> czajkowski: I get the Mr. part all the time.  Makes things really interesting when they confuse Mike's name and mine.
[22:39] <valorie> 13:28] <IdleOne> [13:38:07] is there a reason for even needing to have those stats?
[22:39] <valorie> [13:28] <IdleOne> [13:39:08] I mean for me it doesn't make a difference if the DD is male or female
[22:39] <czajkowski> aye I'd say that happens a lot
[22:39] <MichelleQ> she's beautiful, czajkowski, and I see a lot of you in her.
[22:39] <czajkowski> thanks
[22:39] <czajkowski> I was doing moo cards for her also
[22:40] <IdleOne> valorie: ok, how do you get "show me the code" from that?
[22:40]  * MichelleQ imagines Cuba Gooding Jr. saying "show me the code"
[22:41] <valorie> well, from the code standpoint, of course it doesn't matter who submits
[22:41] <valorie> just the quality of the code
[22:42] <valorie> but from the point of those submitting, it makes a HUGE difference who they are working next to
[22:42] <valorie> the community IS important -- and a good community produces much better code
[22:42] <valorie> my point is that the stats are important not in themselves
[22:43] <valorie> but in showing increasing diversity over time
[22:43] <valorie> and if you don't bother measuring, you can't show progresss
[22:43] <valorie> ooo, didn't mean to hiss
[22:43] <IdleOne> :) I appreciate the input
[22:43] <IdleOne> didn't read it with a negative tone
[22:44] <valorie> :-)
[22:44] <czajkowski> valorie: it's not reading as a hiss
[22:44] <valorie> we're all on the same side here
[22:44] <valorie> progresss
[22:44] <valorie> lol
[22:45] <valorie> I slipped into parseltongue
[22:45] <czajkowski> slowly but surely
[22:45] <czajkowski> it;s also hard at times to work out tone over irc
[22:45] <czajkowski> drives me batty most days
[22:45] <czajkowski> :)
[22:45] <IdleOne> my point was that ultimately the code is what matters. If a project had 99% women and only 1% men I would look at it the same way.
[22:45] <valorie> and on that we disagree
[22:48] <IdleOne> What matters to me is that the project is successful, if it helps then it really does not matter to me the percentage of either gender. I agree that diversity makes for a better project (different points of view)....Again I feel I am putting my foot in my mouth and not explaining my idea clearly.
[22:49] <czajkowski> IdleOne: if you feel that way, can you try and explain yourself a bit better
[22:49] <czajkowski> I'm curious now  as I like valorie disagree with you
[22:49] <valorie> well, I tend to look at it from not just the snapshot view
[22:49] <valorie> but as a point in history
[22:50] <valorie> if there isn't diversity, the project will die or move into force mode - i.e. church hierarchies, etc.
[22:50] <rww> If the code were all that mattered, I'd be part of the Debian project instead.
[22:51] <IdleOne> czajkowski: I don't know that I am able to at this point
[22:51] <IdleOne> I need to think more carefully about what it is I am trying to convey
[22:52] <valorie> so while it is OK for a project to be monolithic for awhile
[22:52] <valorie> eventually they have to open or die of groupthink
[22:56] <maco> MichelleQ: i have a cousin whose last name is kumpfmiller. she spelled this on the phone to yellowbook when buying an ad. got the bill addressed to... umm... s/mpf/nts/
[22:57] <nhandler> Not sure if you all saw this, but there was a post about the Debian Women team trying to get more women involved (especially with packaging and becoming DDs). They are organizing some classroom sessions right now.
[22:57] <IdleOne> mn pt fs o the phone can sound very similar
[22:58] <IdleOne> s/o/on
[22:58] <rww> maco: oh lawd.
[22:58] <rww> I resort to "Wall, as in the thing that holds up roofs" a lot :(
[22:58] <IdleOne> but yeah unfortunate mispelling
[23:02] <MichelleQ> maco: OH dear.