[00:27] In #ubuntu-offtopic, rww said: !thankbot is jussi intercepted your thanks - jussi has been thanked: 01 times [00:28] In #ubuntu-offtopic, mc44 said: !thankbot is jussi intercepted your thanks - jussi has been thanked: ∞ times [01:01] jusoe is crivit/buzag/etc/etc [01:02] hi [01:02] jusoe, hi [01:02] jusoe: how can we help you? [01:02] hello [01:02] why am I barred from ubunttu [01:03] mass ban evading for one [01:03] well i ve been here before but not barred [01:05] what have Ive done? [01:05] to be barred [01:06] as bazhang said, evading bans. [01:06] @login [01:06] The operation succeeded. [01:06] I was here only 2 days ago [01:07] mneptok: evading? [01:08] second time here [01:08] jusoe, this is a net cafe? [01:08] yes [01:09] only here second time [01:09] jusoe, last time you said it was your home computer. and two days would not have been possible. [01:09] ie two days ago. [01:11] bazhang: youve lost me [01:12] jusoe, your ban won't be lifted at this time. [01:14] bazhang: banned for asking a question? why? [01:14] jusoe, asking what question. you cannot access #ubuntu [01:16] bazhang: so I can ask my question? [01:16] jusoe, a support question? this is not a support channel. [01:17] In #ubuntu, Azjo said: ubottu, there is no GUI for grub? [01:17] chris said I should join here [01:18] jusoe, enough. your ban won't be lifted in #ubuntu , as you continue to make things up. please /part the channel [01:18] jusoe: this is not a support channel, this channel is used to resolve bans/removals from #ubuntu. bazhang has already told you that the ban will not be lifted. Please leave this channel now [01:20] I don't see any reason for jusoe being here any longer, mneptok could you please remove jusoe [01:21] well at least give me a chance# [01:21] jusoe, you have had multiple chances. [01:22] I not sure what you mean [01:23] ok so deadbit has been here also but he never told me he would be [01:24] jusoe, The logs on the bot indicate that you have not honored the request to not be in #ubuntu previously, which does not demonstrate an active effort on your part to follow the guidelines for the channels. [01:25] persia: I havent been in ubuntu for 3 days now [01:25] Although you are unlikely to receive sympathy now, you may find that if you find a way to demonstrate that you have not been using channels in violation of bans for a middling period of time (maybe a week or two, but I'm not the decider), the ban would be lifted. [01:26] persia: yeah but I havent been [01:29] Ive been barred for what ( I havent been here for at least two weeks) [01:29] just a minute ago you said 3 days [01:29] now it's two weeks [01:29] in a few more minutes it will be months I'm sure [01:30] jusoe: the ban will not be lifted. [01:31] IdleOne: three days I never said that? [01:31] 082410-[20:25:22] persia: I havent been in ubuntu for 3 days now [01:32] anyway, bazhang has made his decision. [01:32] IdleOne: wel thats true [01:32] !appeals [01:32] If you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page. [01:32] this is going nowhere. he's ban evaded on at least 8 occasions [01:32] and the story changes every time. [01:33] jusoe, this discussion is over. please exit the channel [01:34] hey bazhang thats very incomplete your very cycinal [01:34] Nonetheless, we need to follow the procedure, or we end up running the risks of unfair discrimination: poor past behaviour would be noted in an appeal, and appropriate demonstration of contrition requested. [01:35] jusoe, You'd do best to /part : appeal if you wish, but the longer you're here, the less well your appeal will be received, as you've gotten the decision, and you've been asked to /part. [01:35] persia, and the appeals link has been given. when a user refuses to even give the bare semblance of something approaching the truth, there is nothing further to be discussed here. [01:36] bazhang, You have my complete agreement there :) [01:36] sure but Im booted for what really? [01:36] your tagging me otherwise [01:37] crivit/buzag/jarheadless/theeanomaly/dirtbag256/hufx just off the top of my head. [01:37] bazhang: hey come on thats not fair [01:38] Im josoe no other [01:38] jusoe, If you find it unfair, please appeal the decision using the process. You cannot get another decision here today, according to our procedures. [01:39] what process who have banned me as a simple user [01:41] or is that just bazhangs forte??? [01:41] this talking in circles will go on until they get tired and go to sleep. Enough is enough, he has been given the decision by the op and asked to leave, provided the link for appeals. [01:42] why do we have to keep repeating ourself to someone who has been clearly told what the procedure is. [01:42] so what does that mean for us toinght? [01:43] it means. the ban will NOT be lifted and you must leave now [01:44] hey you banned my friend so now you want to ban me [01:45] so ok ban ban ban is that your thing? sorry [01:47] cant count how many hours spent in PM with him [01:48] I don't think jusoe understood the discussion, but I'm unsure how much of that was intentional :( With luck there will be an appeal, and then no more discussion of the matter. [01:49] persia, no, it's a ploy of his, claiming to be a net cafe user; usually he has 'the manager' come on and plead his case [01:50] it varies between home and net cafe [01:50] .he's a known troll/liar [01:51] Unfortunate, that. Sometimes I think the folk that get caught in the ban cycle aren't normally different from the rest of us, just unlucky and have more technical than social sense at the time they are caught, but that's not something we can solve. [01:52] he's never provided anything of value in #ubuntu . just random unhelpful and completely unacceptable commentary [01:55] hey way a I banned? [01:55] jusoe, you know why. [01:55] This feels like deja vu. [01:55] all over again. [01:56] hey way am I banned from ubunt [01:57] today or like forever? [01:57] jusoe, until you start telling the truth, it won't be lifted. [01:58] jusoe: There is nothing more we can do for you tonight, please follow the aformentioned appeals process if you wish to have your ban lifted. [01:58] jusoe, that time is entirely up to you. [01:58] so to day? [02:00] Potentially, depending on the speed of the appeals process, but you'd best start that rather than asking the same questions here. [02:01] why is I bannend now? [02:03] for what exacetly? what has I done? [02:03] bazhang: time is what? [02:05] ok so I use this cafe so what! [02:10] ok so no access to ubuntu?? [02:10] jusoe, correct. no access to #ubuntu . [02:11] ok so no access to #ubuntu?? [02:11] jusoe, correct. [02:12] point please? [02:12] jusoe, see the appeals link? [02:13] links from where? [02:13] !appeals | jusoe read this [02:13] jusoe read this: If you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page. [02:14] sure ok [02:15] jusoe, read the link [02:15] which one? [02:15] theres boths there [02:15] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess <----------- jusoe [02:18] ok read that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess [02:18] yes. [02:18] jusoe, no need to join here to ask about your ban. read that link. [02:19] jusoe, please exit the channel. [02:19] hey but I did [02:19] hmm? [02:20] dont drop me [02:20] step one: visit here [02:20] step two: not happy with the decision made regarding your ban? [02:21] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess <----- then visit this link for further steps. Step One is completed. [02:21] not sure what you mean [02:22] ok thats sorted [02:23] jusoe, you come here to ask to have your ban removed? understand? [02:24] yes sort off [02:24] jusoe, your ban will not be removed. that is the end of step one. [02:25] but why? [02:25] follow the link for the rest of the steps. [02:25] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess jusoe follow this link and the steps in it. [02:26] what link? [02:26] jusoe, nothing else to discuss here. [02:26] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess <----- jusoe this link. see it? [02:27] surer ok [02:27] jusoe, please exit the channel. [02:28] am I unbanned now? [02:28] jusoe, no. [02:28] why not? [02:29] jusoe, your ban will not be lifted. you can appeal this decision. at the link above. [02:30] aPPEAL? [02:30] yes. [02:31] YES? [02:31] jusoe, is English not your native language? [02:32] excuse my clients auto-join :( [02:32] ryanakca, just a moment please [02:32] ryaxnb :( [02:32] HEHE but ban is not not fair [02:32] ryanakca, sorry [02:33] ahh! twice in a row! [02:33] ryaxnb_, just a moment please [02:33] jusoe, so English is or is not your native language === ryaxnb_ is now known as ryaxnb [02:34] ban is not not fair [02:34] ok... so because it is taking moment? [02:34] jusoe, then follow the appeals link given above [02:34] ryaxnb, conducting other business at the moment, patience please [02:34] i can part the room and you can pm me if you like, since other people are talking please. [02:34] bazhang: i know! thus the offer, sorry if it seemed rude! [02:35] :) [02:35] ryaxnb, just don't interrupt its fine to stay. [02:35] kk [02:36] so what links? [02:36] jusoe, you think the ban is not fair. you are welcome to follow the appeals process to have others reconsider the decision [02:36] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess <---- jusoe this link [02:37] jusoe, and as step one (joining this channel) is over, that is your next step [02:37] jusoe, please part the channel now. [02:41] hey [02:41] 45 minutes wasted [02:42] jusoe, nothing else to discuss here. please /part . [02:42] pleae part now thats not fair [02:43] then appeal. check the link. [02:43] 6 times he was given the link to appeals. To me and I am not an psychologist but that proves that this person has no intention of ever resolving this ban and is getting some perverse joy out of wasted our time [02:44] 6 times in the past 45 minutes [02:44] Rather, no intention *at this time*, "ever" is a very strong word. [02:44] thats not true [02:44] please dont [02:44] and he actually pasted it back to us so that makes 7 and proves he knows the link to appeals [02:45] I've got this. [02:45] ok so you want to boot mise [02:45] jusoe, no need. [02:45] jusoe, you know the link to appeal. please follow it. [02:46] well thats what you want to? [02:46] jusoe, the conversation here is over. [02:46] over? [02:46] yes. [02:47] well if thats what YOU SAY [02:47] jusoe: Please part the channel so we can speak with other people, thanks. [02:49] OH thats sad now [02:49] please remove him as we have followed all of step one, and he persists. [02:50] hey thats just unfair [02:51] nah just let him idle here and waste more time. [02:52] but then how will i talk? [02:52] :/ [02:52] not that im taking a position, just wondering :) [02:52] oh so speaking to you (is dead ???)_ [02:53] ryaxnb, thanks for your patience [02:53] :) [02:53] this has taken longer than I'd imagined, so my apologies. [02:56] hey come on [02:56] Tm_T, elky, mneptok, Pici, jussi, topyli, nhandler. Any of you awake? [02:56] oh hi flannel [02:56] Howdy ryaxnb [02:56] may i ask you how we go about resolving the issue of my ban? [02:57] or are you busy? [02:57] ryaxnb: just give him a minute or two [02:57] ryaxnb: I've been waiting for you to be online when I'm around for a few days now :) Let's see if we can't get a spectator removed first. [02:57] k [02:58] ill be on, on and off (dinner and such) till 9:30 [02:58] PST [02:58] PM [02:59] Flannel: yes? [02:59] bazhang am I unbanned now? [02:59] jusoe, no [02:59] Pici: Can you temporarily remove jusoe? [03:00] bazhang why not? [03:00] Flannel: sure. [03:00] Pici: Thankee [03:00] thanks [03:01] pici is a super-op? /me confused [03:01] you are all ops here :) [03:01] some are more equal [03:01] ryaxnb: So, lets go ahead and get this over with [03:02] Flannel: ok [03:02] so what do i need to approve and how long do i have to wait to get back in? [03:02] ryaxnb: What? [03:02] Flannel: the ban :/ [03:02] ryaxnb: What do you mean approve? [03:03] do i need to commit to anything other than following the rules? [03:03] <3 animal farm reference [03:03] which i have always attempted to do, btw. [03:04] ryaxnb: I'd like to discuss the reasons why you were quieted, and subsequently banned, so that we can avoid this in the future. [03:04] thats what i figured. [03:04] so what were the reasons? i still think you were hasty on the ban. I was out of line in my PM to you, but that was because of the adrenaline rush... i should of been more reasonable [03:04] ryaxnb: I usually like to start off with you summarizing your understanding of the situation, since it tends to drive these to conclusion faster [03:05] i understand why i needed to be quieted (to underscore that i was monologuing too mucH) [03:05] and banning was for the same reason, ofc. [03:05] and also because i was rude to the op(?) [03:06] which is very unlike me, as id like to emphasize that normally i am incredibly respectful of ops. [03:06] as i should be. they are the dictators of the channel together, and i understand and accept that. [03:06] You were quieted for reason A (which we'll come back to, yes, it has to do with monologues and things, but this is a more complex issue, so we'll come back to it) [03:06] k [03:07] what else was it, because so far you have not given me a single other reason, so i had always assumed it was the monologuing... i havent been big on breaking rules [03:07] and was i banned for a different reason or the same reason (reason A, b ,or a bit of both) [03:07] thats really what i need to know. [03:08] and then you were banned due to your behavior in the query. You mouthed off, which I tend to look past in those sorts of situations, but the manner in which you mouthed off gave me the opinion that once the quiet was removed, you would not have changed your behavior one iota, and since there wouldn't have been any change, you would've wound up banned. [03:08] interesting that you got that opinion of me. [03:08] Not to say that mouthing off is acceptable (to anyone, not just operators), but I don't like to use "you got angry and caught up in the moment" as an excuse to ban. [03:08] hold on, switching computers. [03:09] im back [03:09] Flannel, so yes... i was disrepectful in the chat conv. [03:10] primarily, though, the reason was i had been making strides to reduce monologuing and violation of swearing and such rules, and felt if you should have banned me, i guess i felt it might have been more reasonable to do it earlier. [03:10] ryaxnbuntu: I've got the query, if you don't mind, I'd like to pastebin it and then reference things inside of it. [03:10] sure sure [03:11] (as to why I formed the opinion that you wouldn't be getting better, we still haven't touched base on the original issue yet) [03:11] would be nice to know [03:11] before, if possible, as i have been frusturated about being in the dark for what, 4 days now? [03:12] ryaxnbuntu: This conversation wouldn't have happened in this manner right at the moment. [03:12] http://paste.ubuntu.com/483205/ [03:13] Flannel, what does that sentence me [03:13] an [03:13] * ryaxnbuntu puzzles [03:13] Huh? [03:13] does it mean i wouldnt have been so unkind in the query if i was like iwas now? [03:13] Oh, mean. [03:14] yeah... your sentence just before the pastebin is a little riddle :/ [03:14] ryaxnbuntu: We're getting offtopic, but in a single sentence: if we tried to have this conversation right after you were banned, it wouldn't be productive. [03:14] hmm... i disagree but will leave it at that [03:15] i respect your decision to have it later, as you are the op [03:15] so, back on topic. [03:15] the pastebin: that almost doesnt sound like me [03:16] ryaxnbuntu: You jump from trying to claim it's ontopic, to trying to claim it's interesting (abandoning the 'on topic' argument)--Makes it seem like you're grasping for straws and trying to justify it. [03:17] well, in that channel topics change pretty freely. [03:17] at the time not too many people were talking, and i figured an image might get some attention, it was a hasty decision i now regret [03:17] Which means the next time we get a random flashlight image, you'll continue to do the same--spend lots of time rationalizing why your non-sequitor images are ontopic. [03:18] ryaxnbuntu: There's no requirement that the channel be busy all of the time. [03:18] i legitametly did not know conversations had to be "on topic" if i recall (a log of the channel perhaps would be nice) no one was really talking, as such the channel had no topic at that moment [03:18] There are, in fact, periods when no one speaks for like an hour. [03:18] thats fine with me, but isnt it okay to try to generate conversation by starting one? [03:18] ryaxnbuntu: It's not that it has to be 'on topic', but that's a good segue into why your flashlight conversations were disruptive to begin with. [03:19] right. would be nice to know. [03:19] And let me just prefix this with: the flashlight topic isn't the issue, we could substitute any other subject in here and it would be equally as valid of a statement. [03:19] so then it is the monologuing? [03:20] That is, we could be talking about "clowns", or "cars", or whatever. [03:20] right. [03:21] ryaxnbuntu: #ubuntu-offtopic is a social channel, it's a place for people to chat about things that interest them, or whatever else. [03:21] i get that, any legitmate, within the rules discussion topic couold be substitued with flashlights, so i was deducing it must be social style [03:21] Flannel, you seem to be taking the long way about. [03:21] i get all that; what i would like to know is how can i improve my social style to meet your requests/demands :) [03:22] ryaxnbuntu: For a while, it seemed like at least once a day I would randomly tab back into -offtopic and would be greeted with an entire page of text about your flashlights [03:22] yes, thats the monologuing that i am working to reduce. [03:22] ryaxnbuntu: Which would be fine, I have nothing against long conversations about flashlights, but there was little, if any, other people discussing it with you. [03:23] seems to be little interest, thus perhaps other topics would be better? [03:23] And it wasn't that you were using the enter key as punctuation (which is the case when you find a wall of text from some people), it was just that no one else seemed to want to participate. [03:23] ryaxnbuntu: Right. Have conversations *with* people [03:24] Sometimes you started talking about flashlights, and actually stopped other people from talking (about whatever else they were talking about) [03:24] again, this is new to me, primarily because until right about the time you quieted me, i had absolutely no indication this was unacceptable, as it does not violate the rules. [03:24] except possibly the common sense one, which i guess therein lies the problem; thats a rule you have to think to follow [03:25] ryaxnbuntu: It doesn't violate the rules. Except regular social norms, yeah. [03:25] ryaxnbuntu: To be honest, I had hoped to stop you from continuing about flashlights for you. You (and your discussions/references about them) had become a bit of a joke, and not in a 'ha-ha' healthy manner. [03:25] and i just figured that sense i was doing it, and im a logical fellow, it was common sense, which upon more thinking, is stupid. its not common sense when you think about it, and if you use common sense to its fullest, you realize monologuing is bad for the channel [03:26] Flannel, frankly, you didnt stop me from continuing them. [03:26] nice theory, but the best way to do that is through coaching, like were doing now [03:26] banning just moves me/people to other channels [03:26] and you know full well i have another channel. [03:26] ryaxnbuntu: I had intended to do so in the query with you while you were quieted, since you didn't get the hint when I warned you in -offtopic earlier that evening. [03:27] sounds reasonable [03:27] ryaxnbuntu: And yes, if you don't remember, I did mention it earlier that it would be best if you didn't continue. [03:27] i do remember. [03:28] however that was the first time an op had ever suggested in a way that was not taken as just an idle remark, that my monologuing was bad for the channel [03:28] ryaxnbuntu: Again, it's not about the monologuing in general, since everyone, at some point, discovers that everyone else they were chatting with has gone AFK, and they kept going for a little while longer. [03:28] i had about 2 minutes from then to realize that it was and stop, which unfortunately it took me longer than that, and by that time, you had quieted me and i started being unreasonable [03:29] ryaxnbuntu: It's not just the operators who made comments about it. and sometimes things that seem like idle remarks aren't (they might just be overly polite about it) [03:29] i should not have to figure out which remarks are idle, as i (and many others) are poor at that. [03:30] nevertheless, i accept that it was certainly a mistake to post that picture. [03:30] ryaxnbuntu: Again, this isn't an edict: "Thou shalt never talk to yourself", it was aimed at being a chance to sideline you, and it deteriorated quickly into a ban. [03:30] there was no market, once i think about it, if you know what i mean. [03:30] ryaxnbuntu: Anyway, I think we've covered things and have things pretty well understood. [03:30] agreed [03:30] Any other questions? [03:31] um, do you have any regrets about banning me with only 1 warning? [03:31] i know i made mistakes, but im still frusturated about the quickness in which it went from warning to several-day-long ban [03:32] considering it wasnt an obvious rule violation, so i kinda had to realize it was a bad thing to do, since its not obvious like simple rules [03:32] ryaxnbuntu: It only turned into a several day one because you weren't around 24 hours after on Sunday, and then yesterday I was at work during the day when you got on, and you were offline last night when I was on. [03:32] right. [03:32] still, i would love you to answer the question. [03:33] ryaxnbuntu: Normally, bans could be removed by any operator, but this particular one was probably one where it should've been just me having this chat with you. [03:33] i get that, and im glad i chatted with you [03:33] im glad i waited [03:34] however, ignoring the multi-day part and assuming a 24 hr ban... i would love an answer to the aforementioned question [03:34] ryaxnbuntu: I have no regrets about banning you after quieting you, no. I do regret the scheduling issues which caused this to wait until Tuesday. [03:34] k [03:35] i can live with that, and i guess we'll agree to disagree on the amount of warnings that should be given, and in the future ill take heed of any advice i get from any member in any style of remark, more seriously :) [03:35] thanks [03:35] ryaxnbuntu: I believe I've unbanned you from -offtopic, if you wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate you heading over there and saying something to verify you can both join, and speak, in the channel. [03:35] i have been able to for quite a while [03:35] the ban was on my hotel IP >_> [03:36] ryaxnbuntu: I'm aware, it made it difficult to track that ban down to remove it. [03:36] then my school. [03:36] Ah. [03:36] i was never banned from the ip i use regularly. [03:36] So, you don't have access to that IP anymore. Alright. [03:36] except the school ip, which should be unbanned. [03:37] if its not already. [03:37] :) [03:37] Do you know which one that is? [03:37] thanks [03:37] no, but i can look next time i go to school, tommorow, and pm it to you [03:37] Alright, thanks. [03:37] 12.106.45.2 [03:37] ryanakca, The speed-to-ban may be surprising, but the channels are largely peer-coordinated, and we encourage folk to participate together: by the time an operator becomes involved (as an operator, rather than as a peer), it's often already too late. [03:38] * persia fails at nick completion :( [03:38] ah,persia, nice to know [03:38] however, many of my "peers" have absolutely never liked me, like atomicspark, even when im not doing anything at all (example: just joining) they are rude to me, so i didnt know [03:38] 12.106.45.2 Flannel the IP in question [03:39] typical atomicspark greeting: "oh noes a ryaxnb :(" [03:40] ryaxnbuntu: Luckily, things like that are changable over time. [03:40] yep [03:40] ryaxnbuntu: (and, I try and talk to people whenever I see it, but I'm not around always) [03:40] anyway, cya on offtopic [03:40] josue continuing in -ot "why am I barred" [03:41] just not going to respond to him as I have given him the appeals links at least half a dozen times [05:31] Why is it still the full moon? [05:34] Flannel: you are being trolled and I am sure you are aware of it. [05:46] how was MTW (~npure@173.49.156.45) able to enter #u when there is a ban on that ip? [05:47] IdleOne: He entered before you banned him [05:47] the ban was set earlier today [05:47] oh a clone [05:47] IdleOne: Indeed, MTW entered 23 hours ago [05:47] ok [06:21] I've a question,... may i ask? [06:22] hello...? [06:23] guess so [06:23] Is there anyone here i can speak to regarding a 'ban' in #ubuntu ? [06:24] youd want to talk to whomever set the ban [06:24] how am i to know who set the ban? [06:25] it was Flannel [06:26] right,... what can i do [06:27] read the guidelines and the code of conduct for one [06:27] !guidelines | collabra [06:27] collabra: The guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines [06:27] !coc > collabra [06:27] collabra, please see my private message [06:27] I've read and understood the guidelines,... [06:28] that quickly? [06:28] just to state,.. that what i had originally said in chat on #ubuntu was verified in #ubuntu-server [06:29] bazhang: i've read them two or three months ago when i began particitpating in #ubuntu [06:29] collabra, and the code of conduct? [06:29] I understand i was combative toward the end,... but Flannel wasn't giving the correct information [06:30] yes, ive read the code of conduct as well [06:31] collabra, and you know why you were banned then? [06:31] no,... i still do not know why i was banned.... [06:32] collabra, no, he was 100% correct. [06:32] bazhang: the ubuntu-server does not ship with typical desktop packages [06:33] and Flannel said the desktop package can be installed after the install [06:33] which i aggreed with [06:33] just reading the logs, giving out bad advice, false information, and continuing to argue when being asked to stop, I would imagine those were amongst the reasons for the ban collabra [06:33] anyone can alter the install to allow other repos [06:33] ubuntu server and ubuntu desktop use the same repos [06:33] err no you didnt [06:34] i understand,... please,... i am helpful to many people in #ubuntu,... i would like to continue to help. [06:34] collabra, there is no Karma system [06:34]