[06:59] <vish> troy_s: hey, do you have the blender files for the UW logo you had done? or any other blender files you can share would be nice too.. i would like to learn to use blender  ;)
[07:13] <vish> troy_s: when you get around to it , can you mail them to me ? : vish at ubuntu.com , thanks in advance  :)
[07:14] <vish> darkmatter: do you have a bunch of devs interested in creating a new editor?  or just making a mockup-ish to improve GIMP?
[07:14] <vish> ie to send to the GIMP guys..
[07:44] <darkmatter> vish: I'm actually thinking of doing my own. I'm just using the gimp to play around with as much as I can before finalizing a look/feel (I know one or two devs who _may_ be available, plus I can code as well, I just dun wanna run this solo), but the stuff I do do to the gimp I'll probably send to the gimp guys as a suggestion. it's not like it's a radical core overhaul or anything
[07:49] <darkmatter> vish: but I want to create something drastically cleaner and more portable (touchscreens, netbooks, etc. it should just fit/function wher it lands), few different approaches to organization of tools (toolbox for the "always there" essentials, main window nd contextual for image/layer/function specifics. still organizing that stuff on paper). something that isn't little or big, but highly modular. ships with just the right mix by defau
[07:56] <darkmatter> vish: that's why all the stuff I've been working on is taking so fraking long. aside from a few new ideas I've had to hybridize the interfaces at the conceptual level. it's not about "an interface for everyone" generic-fail. it's about a ui you can take with you (as in have a familiar tool on various devices with various inputs like tablets etc)
[07:58] <vish> yeah, sending to the GIMP guys should be easier , if we fork/start new , it becomes a huge burden to maintain :s
[07:59] <vish> wasnt there a spin-off of gimp already.. i recall a UDS video of a guy called the 'ingimp guy' or something?
[08:00] <vish> which was a few minor changes to how gimp behaved/reacted
[08:07] <darkmatter> vish: yeah. and it is a totally useless so-called fork, not even remotely design or usability oriented
[08:08] <darkmatter> vish: gimpshop. gimp with more photoshop like menus (layout, naming conventions). that's not an improvement by any means imo, and is a complete waste of time
[08:08] <vish> darkmatter: yeah , it was about getting the drunk to draw proper circles! ;p
[08:22] <darkmatter> vish:  but the overall concept is thus: instead of shipping a massive suite (ala photoshop) and marketing it as do-all-end all (be it a new app or just a re envisioned gimp). (re)design as an application that grows with you. have sane defauts/intuitive ui than even a begin artist can wrap their head around with ease. if your needs are more advanced, or as your skills grow and you need more advance tools/features, those become accessib
[08:22] <darkmatter> vish: that there is a winning formula imo
[08:23] <vish> darkmatter: +1  sane defaults to start with, allowing it to get insane is the way to go :)
[08:23] <darkmatter> simplicity and ease of learning + power as it is needed
[08:24] <vish> there *can* *not* be a one size fits all!
[08:24] <darkmatter> vish: of course we'd have to set rules regarding hoe extensions plug into the ui level, so that even the insanity is coherent :P
[08:26] <vish> ;)
[08:26] <darkmatter> vish: I'm not saying one size fits all. that's not a possibility. it would never be a gimp or photoshop per se, but it would be allowed to grow with the user until there skill bypasses it's usefulness
[08:26] <vish> darkmatter: nah, i dint say you were saying that.. but thats what people often try to do
[08:27] <darkmatter> we dun wanna create a graphics version of firefox after all *shudders at the thought*
[08:27] <vish> darkmatter: like i cant understand why a tablet oriented design is used for the metacity title bar.. each needs its own design..
[08:28] <vish> or are we just being lazy :/
[08:28] <thorwil> lazy
[08:28] <darkmatter> *shrugs*
[08:30] <thorwil> also certain people seem to have reached a 2nd stage of design sensibilities, where they just learned that whitespace is useful. the next stage then is about using it in a modest way ;)
[08:32]  * darkmatter points at gnome3's metacity accusingly
[08:32] <thorwil> for touch vs mouse, a lot could be gained by having a scaling parameter (though not necessarily enough)
[08:34] <darkmatter> thorwil: I was actually "attempting" to start a discussion about scaling and a few other things in g-d a few days ago, but super-jumbo default targets seem more practical I guess ;P
[08:37] <vish> it's easy to blame Ubuntu for trying to 'fork gnome', Unity! , but very often the case is that people at gnome are not very open to suggestions :(
[08:39] <darkmatter> vish: they blame everyone for "forking" like when novell first changed gnomes defaults to fit with their customers needs. that was a royal shitstorm
[08:40] <darkmatter> vish: I remember trying to explain to some gnomers that it wasn't a fork, it was applets. complete denial. it had to be a fork. yup. because the gnomers said so
[08:43] <darkmatter> vish: and usually they don't even have the courtesy to deny your suggestion verbally. they just pretend you're not there ;)
[08:43] <vish> lol!
[08:46] <doctormo> vish: Open to suggestions? This would be the same gnome that doesn't take advantage of xdg and instead persists in gconf. It's not just their UI design that lacks sensibilities, but also their infrastructure design.
[08:49] <vish> doctormo: i just imagined that the 'gnome does not accept patches from canonical' was a myth , but i noticed this first hand while trying to get patches accepted Upstream , they just dont want to respond when the patches are being done by a canonical employee :(
[08:49] <darkmatter> speaking of xdg and other related stuff, I remember suggesting once that they should consider adopting the .directory specification. all I heard was crickets chirping
[08:49] <darkmatter> vish: and people wonder why I don't file bugs against gnome :P
[08:50] <doctormo> darkmatter: There are a pile of infrastructure projects that are just failing to get traction because of the gnome project. I'm glad Zeiguist has the forsight to push forward anyway.
[08:50] <darkmatter> doctormo: indeed
[08:51] <darkmatter> I'm considering moving back to ubuntu. less religion and elitism
[08:51] <vish> when gnome3 started , i recall zeitgeist being the main selling point! but now that dropped flat :/
[08:51] <doctormo> darkmatter: If I had a few billion rupees, I'd dump EDS, gconf and gvfs and replace them all with lower in the stack projects.
[08:52] <vish> doctormo: rupeeeeeeeeeees! ? ;D
[08:52] <darkmatter> doctormo: yeah. I've talked about winning the lottery myself (amongst people that actual _listen_ to ideas ;))
[08:53] <doctormo> darkmatter: Had a very interesting chat with Mark about this problem and it's really boiling down to: It's not economical to make pipes.
[08:54] <doctormo> So the only way to make pipes is either government funding, charity or massive amounts of programmers dedicating their time out of compassion.
[08:54] <doctormo> Sure as hell can't get OEMs to put any money into it.
[08:57] <darkmatter> " but, but! if that scenario arose you'd piss off a lot of devs!"(regarding having a wallet to back up words and making serious fixes). yeah, well, they pissed me off first. eye for an eye :P
[08:57] <troy_s> vish: It is pretty hard to learn from Blender files.
[08:58] <troy_s> vish: Especially some of the more intermediate concepts. Even then, I'm more of a 2D fellow than a 3D, although I've learnt enough to survive. There is an interesting side of Blender that not many think of - the ability to create working interface mocks using the game engine.
[08:58] <darkmatter> pissing of elitists = progress
[09:00] <darkmatter> that's why they tend to get so fired up, it's not because you're making changes, it's because you're making _improvements_
[09:00] <darkmatter> narcissism: the straw that broke the camels back
[09:01] <troy_s> darkmatter: Improvements are relative. One man's meat be another's poison.
[09:01] <darkmatter> troy_s: buzzkill :P
[09:04] <vish> troy_s: nah , usually i like breaking down things that are already done, while i learn something new , it somehow helps me learn quicker :)
[09:04] <troy_s> vish: It might be easier to just get handed through it. If you are interested, I can probably help step you through bits a little bit at a time. It would depend on what you want to learn though.
[09:04] <troy_s> vish: I'm likely not the most useful fellow if your needs are strictly 3D.
[09:05] <troy_s> vish: And if you are looking for all of the work in the uW, the repository has everything. All sources.
[09:05] <troy_s> vish: But again, you may need to at least wrap your head around some of the basic useful bits. Like the ability to find missing files to resolve pathnames etc.
[09:05] <vish> troy_s: not 3D , i liked how you had done those presentations, i just dont know how to do that yet.. Its something i intend to get used to slowly :)
[09:06] <troy_s> vish: It's very simple really.
[09:06] <troy_s> vish: The worst thing you can do (arguably with _anything_) is start with the tool. Tools make tools.
[09:06] <troy_s> vish: If you start with a goal and work backwards, it is _far_ easier, and much easier for someone to help you get there.
[09:06] <vish> troy_s: oh , resources repository? i'm not sure where that is..
[09:08] <troy_s> vish: https://code.launchpad.net/~troy-sobotka/+junk/ubuntu-women-community-identity
[09:08] <darkmatter> nut my move back to ubuntu is gonna have to wait, I don't really feel like I wanna install twice in two months
[09:08] <troy_s> vish: It was unfortunate that they took the bits _out_ of there. I tried to make it clear to leave the bits _in_ there so that they were able to be updated 100% of the time. Now there is a sync issue. For example, there is a spelling mistake in the identity standards manual...
[09:09] <troy_s> vish: Had the 'official' link been to the repository itself, it wouldn't be an issue to fix.
[09:09] <vish> hmm..
[09:10] <vish> troy_s: neat thanks for that link.. yeah, blender is something i'm interested in getting more familiar with at some point.. i just need to make time for it  :)
[09:10] <thorwil> vish: what are you planning to do with blender?
[09:10] <troy_s> vish: But anyways, that's what you were asking for. It is all in there. You will need to re-link the files (as I didn't embed them) but that is painless as it is a menu selection from the File menu.
[09:11] <vish> thorwil: no solid plan yet, but _everyone_ seems gah gah over it , so i'm just interested :)
[09:11] <troy_s> vish: It is the only tool that is even remotely close to useful in the broad scope. Still missing a few vital and critical aspects, but those are in the pipes.
[09:12] <troy_s> vish: Doubly so if Ton does a live action project next. *cough*
[09:13] <thorwil> vish: heh, yeah, it's an incredible application and a very well run project
[09:13] <troy_s> It is very simple as to why it exceeds all of the other tripe that professes to be about everyone
[09:14] <troy_s> It _isn't_. And even better, it is put through real-world paces at regular intervals with external pipeline requirements (Such as DPX 10 bit log needs, etc.)
[09:14] <troy_s> That said, there are a few remaining glaring holes that need to be filled.
[09:17] <troy_s> Wholly crapistan are those videos... well... so Ubuntu.
[09:17] <vish> hehe! Ubuntu!Movies! ;p
[09:17] <vish> ?
[09:17] <troy_s> vish: Yes. Very uh...
[09:17] <troy_s> vish: Ubuntuific.
[09:18] <troy_s> vish: When I say it is a cultural problem... I am pretty sure that sort of output reinforces it.
[09:18] <doctormo> darkmatter: meat/poison, first one then the other.
[09:19]  * vish lunches!
[09:19] <troy_s> vish: Ciao.
[09:27] <troy_s> Night droogies.
[11:01] <thorwil> so looking into how the inkscape tiled clones dialog could be improved, i landed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallpaper_group
[16:28] <knome> hey, does anybody know how to control thunderbird menubar from gtkrc?
[16:29] <knome> the text is dark grey in our theme, but we need to change it to white since the background is blue
[21:21] <darkmatter> knome: userchrome.css. you can't properly theme xul apps from gtk proper (yet) because of the way xul apps handle menus/bars (particularly the text)
[21:22] <knome> we've managed to tweak the firefox menubar.
[21:24] <darkmatter> firefox is reasonable. it's an age thing (they tend to spend the most effort on having it git in, since it's default almost everywhere). but thunderbird, sunbird, and other xul apps can be pigheaded to various degrees
[21:24] <knome> can userchrome.css be theme-specific?
[21:25] <darkmatter> yup. to a cetian degree. the user chome for sonar in opensuse is hosted bt the actual theme itself. sec
[21:31] <darkmatter> knome: example userChrome.css from openSUSE. it's how the prevent the dropdown in the awesomebar from being all black and fugly. frome /usr/share/themes/Sonar/mozilla: http://pastebin.ca/1927940
[21:32] <knome> seems like pastebin.ca is damn slow
[21:33] <darkmatter> exactly how much xul themeing can be hosted external (beyons the . directory), of that I'm uncertain, I haven't had a chance to tinker with it yet
[21:33] <knome> and yeah, i know userchrome.css, but that's not really a preferred solution if it can't be theme-specific
[21:34] <darkmatter> knome: no. I mean at least in that degree it is theme specific. if you pull the css out of the theme directory and reaplly sonar it goes all funky
[21:34] <knome> right
[21:35] <darkmatter> it's just the degree to which that functionality is exportable of which I'm uncertain
[21:35] <knome> mm-hmm
[21:37] <knome> but then, if you disable the theme, you should remove the userchrome.css again to revert back to normal
[21:37] <knome> i'm not really sure if that's possible
[21:39] <darkmatter> pkus naming conventions. do we just need the mozilla subfolder for the theme _or_ do we also need to have say, thunderbird and sunbird (since they have there own config directories). I would hope that's not the case, and that it's just using the mozilla namespace in the general sense, but again. I don't have any documentation oin that. the only way I learned you could export the user chrome at all was seeing that when the css was firs
[21:40] <knome> "the css was firs --" ?
[21:41] <darkmatter> knome: no. I mean that css in sonar doesn't get copied to your firefox profile. it stays in the theme (that's from Sonar/mozilla) and works from there
[21:41] <knome> aha..
[21:41] <darkmatter> knome: was first added and going hmmm and then pissing around a bit<-- tht
[21:44] <darkmatter> but like I said, I don't know if that behaviour is unique to firefox or not, but it appears the moz namespace can be read from an external directory for themeing (if only in a limited fashion) I just need to find the time to really play around and see how far it goes
[21:44] <knome> yeah
[21:44] <knome> right
[21:44] <knome> is there some documentation?
[21:44] <knome> (i'd *REALLY* just would like to change the menubar color, nothing else :))
[21:45] <knome> menubar text color, i mean :)
[21:48] <darkmatter> yeah. I know. gotta love self hosting toolkits :P
[21:49] <darkmatter> ok. self-hosting sounds off, but I just work up and havent dosed with coffee yet, so you'll have to just deal with it :P
[21:49] <knome> np ;)