/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/08/28/#ubuntu-irc.txt

AndreNoelhi Pici00:32
AndreNoelare you able to set up my cloak?00:33
IdleOneAndreNoel: link to your launchpad account?00:41
AndreNoelhttps://launchpad.net/~andrenoel00:42
IdleOnePici jussi ^^^00:44
AndreNoeltks00:46
=== bazhang_ is now known as bazhang
MichealHHello10:11
persiaHello.10:18
PadhuZGuys, which is the other IRC server for #ubuntu-devel10:32
persiaShould be on this server.10:35
PadhuSometime Peoples switch over to other server, that is i missed when upgrading my machine10:40
Nafalloservers, or networks?10:40
persiaThe servers within a network mostly mirror each other fairly well.10:41
persiaYou're being ignored on #ubuntu-devel because you haven't asked an interesting question, not because you're connected to the wrong place.10:42
Padhui am just listening10:43
persiaOh.  I thought you were checking if it moved because you said "hi" twice and got no response.10:44
Nafalloubot2: !weekend | Padhu10:45
ubot2Padhu: It's a weekend. Often on weekends the paid developers and a lot of the community may not be around to answer your question. Please be patient, wait longer than you normally would or try again during the working week.10:45
Nafallohence, why it seems quiet :-)10:45
PadhuNafallo: ok, Thanks :-)10:46
PadhuHappy Week end ;-)10:46
* persia thinks !weekend would be less true if the factoid didn't exist10:47
elkypersia, how is explaining a silence creating it?11:36
persiaI've had folks tell me that they spend evenings on Ubuntu rather than weekends because of !weekend.11:37
persiaWay back when, there was lots more activity on weekends.  bug days were usually on weekends, etc.11:37
persiaNow weekends are mostly silent.  I'm not convinced some of that was repetition of the once false meme that folks weren't around on weekends.11:38
elkywell the factoid was made to explain the situation that people were having to type out by hand often11:38
persiaI suppose my complaint is with folks who reached for that explanation then :)11:39
elkyyeah, many factoids get misused by people who decide, in spite of guidance to the contrary, that helping means finding a factoid that's loosely related and piping up with it11:40
elkyThere's a problem where dissuading people from helping like this gets booed down as "being mean to helpers"11:41
persiaIndeed.11:41
elkyI grew up thinking that "help" actually had an element of helpfulness. Apparently not everyone had this definition.11:42
persiaI just feel !weekend is a horrid response to a question, especially when there often *is* someone around to answer, if it's an interesting question.11:42
persiaheh.  Sorry for pressing your button :)  I agree with you, but try to be a bit less jaded about it.11:42
elkyI think several factoids need rewriting.11:43
persiaDo you not have time to rewrite them, or is there a process limitation?11:43
elkybut, I'm too embittered by being told I'm "being mean to helpers" that I can't actually think of better ones.11:43
erUSULelky: it does not help the ignored edit requests11:43
persiaOh, Ugh.  That's the worst place to be.11:43
* persia fondly remembers reading a bit in some version of the code of conduct that seemed to inspire rapid, respectful, polite, slamming of incorrect ideas entirely and educating people not to do the wrong thing.11:44
persiaUnfortunately, the phrasing I liked seems to be missing from the current version.11:45
elkypersia, somewhere along the line, the Geek Social Fallacies got confused for the Code of Conduct and now we're stuck.11:45
persiaI'm not sure we're stuck.  Just takes time and effort.11:46
persiaUnfortunately, it's the constant vigilance bit that I don't seem to have down.11:46
elkyIn IRC land, the appeals process exists. 99.9999% of things raised to it are "such and such op were mean and told me i was wrong"11:47
persiaBut we're *supposed* to do that.  Not doing that would violate the CoC.11:47
persiaWell, we're not supposed to be mean, but we're supposed to tell folks they are wrong.11:48
persiaAnd we're supposed to do it quickly and publically.11:48
elkyBut by the person complaining, the irc op ends up being the CoC breacher according to the logic that seems to float peoples boats these days11:48
persiaAnd that's easily interpreted as mean.11:48
persiaIt's because folks don't read long technical texts.11:48
persiaCoC is *not* "be excellent to each other" in any way.11:49
persiaMaybe I'm incorrect, but that anyone is capable of understanding the acronym TLDR makes me suspect the above is true for at least a subset.11:49
elkyI think "be excellent to each other" means a different thing in a group of 50 than a group of 120011:51
persiaAnyway, I think IRC Ops who end up getting those complaints should quote chapter and section, and stand by their actions.  If they can't do that, they weren't telling people they were wrong in the appropriate manner.11:51
persiaQuite possibly.  One of the reasons I support tribalism : when you accept that groups over a certain size tend to clump, it makes it easier to create governance structures (inter-tribal councils, etc.) that tend to defray tension.11:52
persiaThe downside is that tribalism means that folks are different from each other, which means one can't safely also be egalitarian.11:53
persia(and unmanaged tribalism leads to strife and pain)11:53
elkyand misunderstood tribalism11:54
persiaHow do you mean "misunderstood"?11:55
* erUSUL wonders how tribalism became the new ( abused ) buzzword ...11:55
persiaabused?11:55
elkypersia, when the tribal councils have the wrong missions11:55
* persia has been using "tribe" since becoming interested in Dunbar's number a few years ago11:55
persiaelky, Oh, yeah.  Tribes have to be voluntary, self-selecting, and self-selecting of their leadership for a tribal society to function.  That interfaces incredibly poorly with any hierarchical structure based on functional division.11:56
elkyand certain processes I've been seeing the past few years.11:57
=== k1l_ is now known as k1l
persiaheh, yeah.11:58
MichealHHello Is there someone I can PM?14:32
ikoniaMichealH: you have to be more specific14:32
ikoniaMichealH: you've having a problem with the #ubuntu-youth channel yes/no ?14:32
MichealHYes14:32
ikoniaMichealH: you so want one of the operators from the #ubuntu-youth channel yes/no ?14:33
MichealHI know what happened but I think I was banned because of something unfair14:33
ikoniaMichealH: you so want one of the operators from the #ubuntu-youth channel yes/no ?14:33
MichealHWell, I dont know14:33
ikoniado you want to talk to one of the ubuntu-youth operators to resolve having your ban removed14:34
MichealHYes14:34
ikoniaright14:34
MichealHBut I dont think this will be resolved14:34
ikoniaso the question you have is "Can an operator from #ubuntu-youth please PM me as I would like to resolve my ban"14:34
MichealHIt wont get resolved14:35
MichealHThey are under strict rules from the leader14:35
ikoniathen discuss the ban in public in here and the operators will assist you14:35
MichealHOkay14:35
ikoniano-one in the #ubuntu name space is under strict instructions from the "leader"14:35
MichealHI got banned because I "Didnt contribute"14:35
MichealHWhich Is not fair14:36
MichealHI was then getting some things trown at me saying I was a nothing but a big crybaby14:36
ikoniawait for one of the ubuntu-youth operators to be awake, then it can be discussed in here14:36
MichealHOkay14:37
ikoniaor you could just leave without waiting14:38
ikoniawhat ever works for you14:38
ikonia</sarcasm>14:38
Seeker`ikonia: ping14:52
bazhangMichealH, you here?14:52
Seeker`zkriesse: I believe that michealH wishes to discuss his ban14:52
MichealHbazhang, Yup14:52
bazhangyou wished to resolve an issue with ops from -youth? MichealH14:52
MichealHYes, I did14:52
bazhangzkriesse, is one? MichealH ?14:53
ikoniahello14:53
MichealHYes bazhang14:53
zkriesseI already told him to discuss it with us14:53
MichealHHello ikonia14:53
ikoniaMichealH: now is the time to discuss while you have an operators attention14:53
ikoniaSeeker`: nice one14:53
MichealHWelll... just because I don't contribute to a team well in my opinion is unfair to warrent a ban14:54
zkriesseIt's not because you don't contribute14:55
zkriesseIt's because you continue to not follow mine, and several14:55
zkriesseHIGHLY established ubuntu members advice14:55
MichealHSo I have to follow your contributions?14:55
MichealHOkay14:55
zkriesseYour attitude is constantly one of someone who feels that everyone should know that you're awesome and bow to your superiority14:56
zkriesseWhile that doesn't happen all the time it happens enough14:56
MichealHAnd it was the fact you has made a joke out of this situaltion14:57
zkriesseIt's not a joke to me14:57
MichealH<zkriesse> ha14:57
zkriesseI thought you were going to be a rising star but those hopes have been lost14:57
MichealH<zkriesse> that was a joke14:57
MichealHThat, came out of a PM14:59
Seeker`may I ask what advice he didn't follow?14:59
MichealHAlso, As I was getting banned, I was getting a lash of swear words coming at me15:00
zkriesseSeeker`: Rushing ahead, trying to do multiple projects at once (like ten), applying for ubuntu membership a month or two after being denied, and so on15:01
Seeker`what sort of projects?15:01
zkriesseMichealH: May I remind you that you once banned me from ubuntu youth because you got a little "pissy" ?15:01
MichealHzkriesse, It wasnt you15:01
MichealHIt was annother guy15:01
zkriesseSeeker`: Reworking the forums omg ubuntu and other projects15:02
zkriesseMichealH: It15:02
MichealHBut that was before this is now15:02
zkriesseWas me15:02
Seeker`zkriesse: and what happens to these projects?15:02
MichealHzkriesse, It wasnt15:02
MichealHSeeker`, What do you mean?15:02
zkriesseSeeker`: He's also stated that he wished to contribute to wiki but he's not started on the one project I've given him15:03
MichealHzkriesse, I am halfway through15:03
Seeker`do they get completed? abandoned? Does anyone assign MichealH these projects?15:03
zkriesseSeeker`: I don't know as I've not seen him finish one thing he's started yet15:03
zkriesseMichealH: You were half way through almost a month ago15:03
MichealHSeeker`, Usually, Completed15:03
zkriesseMichealH: I call bull on that15:04
Seeker`zkriesse: does anyone assign MichealH these projects?15:04
zkriesseI've got people to back me up....whom do you have who can show proof of your work15:04
MichealHNot backup of projects, But people on the forums which have seem me get involved15:05
zkriesseSeeker`: Myself, a wiki focus group for the beginners team if which im a member15:05
zkriesseIf/of15:05
Seeker`zkriesse: don't assign him so many projects then?15:05
MichealHSeeker`, Yes, I have noticed that15:05
MichealHHe assigns me to projects when I have annother in progress15:06
zkriesseSeeker`: I don't...he decides to jump on as many as possible. I told him to take no more than one at a time15:06
zkriesseAt least no more than two15:06
Seeker`zkriesse: Well, noone can stop people doing what they like with their free time15:07
zkriesseSeeker`: I understand that15:07
zkriesseWhich is fine15:07
zkriesseBut when it hampers the success of a team it's a problem15:07
Seeker`zkriesse: If he wants to take on more things then noone should stop him. Assigning them to him just because he says "I'll do that" is probably a bad idea15:07
MichealHWhen was I stopping U-Y from progressing?15:07
MichealHI was helping kvarley woth that OggCast15:08
MichealH*woth15:08
Seeker`A possible resolution may be that there is an understanding that if MichealH is not officially assigned a project, it may well be given to someone else as a project, and there is no guarantee that MichealH's effort will actually be used?15:08
MichealH*with15:08
zkriesseMichealH: I needed wiki people to help document stuff15:08
zkriesseYou were one of those very few people15:08
zkriesseI can't depend on you anymore15:09
MichealHzkriesse, But you didnt say15:09
zkriesseMichealH: Ive tried15:09
zkriesseYou don't LISTEN15:09
MichealHSeeker`, I understand that If I don't officially assign It can get passed on15:10
zkriesseI've had questions/complaints from many folks who've said the same thing15:10
MichealHzkriesse, When? May I ask?15:10
Seeker`zkriesse: care to comment on my suggestion?15:10
zkriesseSeeker`: It's a good one but at this time the team pretty15:10
zkriesseMuch doesn't want him around15:11
MichealHzkriesse, But I havent seen the project being given any say in what you do15:11
MichealHOnce bilal wanted to do packaging classes but you told him NO straight away... With No say whatsoever from anyone15:12
zkriesseMichealH: Bullshit15:12
Seeker`zkriesse: language15:12
MichealHSeeker`, I get this most the time15:12
zkriesseHe and the ops of the channel said we wanted A draft of what he wanted to do15:13
zkriesseHe's working on it15:13
MichealHNo, I said I wanted to do the website15:13
MichealHThat was the ONE project I wanted to do15:13
MichealHLike you said15:13
MichealHI got denied and here we are15:14
zkriesseMichealH: You never asked to do the website15:14
zkriesseAnother guy did15:14
MichealHzkriesse, But I at least suggested15:15
zkriesseWe're holding off for Noe15:15
MichealHzkriesse, It would of then been up to you to say No we have someone on that15:15
MichealHOr to ask that person15:15
zkriesseMichealH: Did you not even pay attention in the meeting?!?!?15:16
MichealHzkriesse, I would have replied if you didnt devoice me and +m the channel?15:17
Seeker`this is going in circles15:17
zkriesseSeeker`: Yes it is15:17
zkriesseSeeker`: Old news....again and again15:17
MichealHSeeker`, It happens all the time15:17
Seeker`zkriesse: Is there anything to say that if MichealH is in the channel, you have to rely on him for the progress of the project?15:17
zkriesseAt this time no..:but people will leave if he's around15:18
zkriesseGive me some time to calm them down15:18
Seeker`"some time"?15:19
zkriesseLike a15:19
zkriesseA day or15:19
zkriesseDang it...15:19
zkriesseStupid iPod15:19
MichealHSeeker`, I think he is asaying "Like a day or two"15:20
ikoniazkriesse: can you please summerise what the ban was for15:20
zkriesseHis attitude with me, the other ops, and the team. He's been talked to gosh knows how many times before but it's perpetual...15:21
zkriesseI've had a team member say that they will never15:22
zkriesseNever come back because of him15:22
ikoniaok - so his attitude is driving memebers out15:22
ikoniais he rude/offensive/$something15:22
MichealHikonia, I have never ever been rude15:22
MichealHNor anything else15:23
ikoniaMichealH: I'm askin zkriesse15:23
MichealHI am just being me15:23
zkriesseikonia: Oh and perfect example. He doesn't know when not to speak15:23
ikoniazkriesse: that can be annoying, but what's the actual issue with his behaviour15:24
zkriesseBut he's done that in regional membership board meetings15:24
Seeker`zkriesse: thats the regional board's problem :P15:24
zkriesseikonia: His behavior, his attitude, and his response to team members15:24
Seeker`if they don't like it, they'll do something about it, we try to keep behaviour in seperate channels seperate. A ban in -offtopic doesn't mean a ban in #ubuntu15:25
zkriesseSeeker`: I understand that15:26
zkriesseBy the way I'm currently on my iPod touch...my pc is at home where I'm not. When I get home I will find logs/examples of his behavior and pastebin them15:29
AndrewMCok MichealH is unbanned from the Ubuntu Youth channel15:36
MichealHThanksThanks15:36
zkriesseMichealH: Don't thank us...thank the irc ops15:37
MichealHOkay15:37
MichealHThanks for helping us resolve the issue, Seeker` , ikonia , bazhang15:38
MichealHzkriesse, Am I able to join?15:38

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