[00:32] <AndreNoel> hi Pici
[00:33] <AndreNoel> are you able to set up my cloak?
[00:41] <IdleOne> AndreNoel: link to your launchpad account?
[00:42] <AndreNoel> https://launchpad.net/~andrenoel
[00:44] <IdleOne> Pici jussi ^^^
[00:46] <AndreNoel> tks
[10:11] <MichealH> Hello
[10:18] <persia> Hello.
[10:32] <Padhu> ZGuys, which is the other IRC server for #ubuntu-devel
[10:35] <persia> Should be on this server.
[10:40] <Padhu> Sometime Peoples switch over to other server, that is i missed when upgrading my machine
[10:40] <Nafallo> servers, or networks?
[10:41] <persia> The servers within a network mostly mirror each other fairly well.
[10:42] <persia> You're being ignored on #ubuntu-devel because you haven't asked an interesting question, not because you're connected to the wrong place.
[10:43] <Padhu> i am just listening
[10:44] <persia> Oh.  I thought you were checking if it moved because you said "hi" twice and got no response.
[10:45] <Nafallo> ubot2: !weekend | Padhu
[10:45] <ubot2> Padhu: It's a weekend. Often on weekends the paid developers and a lot of the community may not be around to answer your question. Please be patient, wait longer than you normally would or try again during the working week.
[10:45] <Nafallo> hence, why it seems quiet :-)
[10:46] <Padhu> Nafallo: ok, Thanks :-)
[10:46] <Padhu> Happy Week end ;-)
[10:47]  * persia thinks !weekend would be less true if the factoid didn't exist
[11:36] <elky> persia, how is explaining a silence creating it?
[11:37] <persia> I've had folks tell me that they spend evenings on Ubuntu rather than weekends because of !weekend.
[11:37] <persia> Way back when, there was lots more activity on weekends.  bug days were usually on weekends, etc.
[11:38] <persia> Now weekends are mostly silent.  I'm not convinced some of that was repetition of the once false meme that folks weren't around on weekends.
[11:38] <elky> well the factoid was made to explain the situation that people were having to type out by hand often
[11:39] <persia> I suppose my complaint is with folks who reached for that explanation then :)
[11:40] <elky> yeah, many factoids get misused by people who decide, in spite of guidance to the contrary, that helping means finding a factoid that's loosely related and piping up with it
[11:41] <elky> There's a problem where dissuading people from helping like this gets booed down as "being mean to helpers"
[11:41] <persia> Indeed.
[11:42] <elky> I grew up thinking that "help" actually had an element of helpfulness. Apparently not everyone had this definition.
[11:42] <persia> I just feel !weekend is a horrid response to a question, especially when there often *is* someone around to answer, if it's an interesting question.
[11:42] <persia> heh.  Sorry for pressing your button :)  I agree with you, but try to be a bit less jaded about it.
[11:43] <elky> I think several factoids need rewriting.
[11:43] <persia> Do you not have time to rewrite them, or is there a process limitation?
[11:43] <elky> but, I'm too embittered by being told I'm "being mean to helpers" that I can't actually think of better ones.
[11:43] <erUSUL> elky: it does not help the ignored edit requests
[11:43] <persia> Oh, Ugh.  That's the worst place to be.
[11:44]  * persia fondly remembers reading a bit in some version of the code of conduct that seemed to inspire rapid, respectful, polite, slamming of incorrect ideas entirely and educating people not to do the wrong thing.
[11:45] <persia> Unfortunately, the phrasing I liked seems to be missing from the current version.
[11:45] <elky> persia, somewhere along the line, the Geek Social Fallacies got confused for the Code of Conduct and now we're stuck.
[11:46] <persia> I'm not sure we're stuck.  Just takes time and effort.
[11:46] <persia> Unfortunately, it's the constant vigilance bit that I don't seem to have down.
[11:47] <elky> In IRC land, the appeals process exists. 99.9999% of things raised to it are "such and such op were mean and told me i was wrong"
[11:47] <persia> But we're *supposed* to do that.  Not doing that would violate the CoC.
[11:48] <persia> Well, we're not supposed to be mean, but we're supposed to tell folks they are wrong.
[11:48] <persia> And we're supposed to do it quickly and publically.
[11:48] <elky> But by the person complaining, the irc op ends up being the CoC breacher according to the logic that seems to float peoples boats these days
[11:48] <persia> And that's easily interpreted as mean.
[11:48] <persia> It's because folks don't read long technical texts.
[11:49] <persia> CoC is *not* "be excellent to each other" in any way.
[11:49] <persia> Maybe I'm incorrect, but that anyone is capable of understanding the acronym TLDR makes me suspect the above is true for at least a subset.
[11:51] <elky> I think "be excellent to each other" means a different thing in a group of 50 than a group of 1200
[11:51] <persia> Anyway, I think IRC Ops who end up getting those complaints should quote chapter and section, and stand by their actions.  If they can't do that, they weren't telling people they were wrong in the appropriate manner.
[11:52] <persia> Quite possibly.  One of the reasons I support tribalism : when you accept that groups over a certain size tend to clump, it makes it easier to create governance structures (inter-tribal councils, etc.) that tend to defray tension.
[11:53] <persia> The downside is that tribalism means that folks are different from each other, which means one can't safely also be egalitarian.
[11:53] <persia> (and unmanaged tribalism leads to strife and pain)
[11:54] <elky> and misunderstood tribalism
[11:55] <persia> How do you mean "misunderstood"?
[11:55]  * erUSUL wonders how tribalism became the new ( abused ) buzzword ...
[11:55] <persia> abused?
[11:55] <elky> persia, when the tribal councils have the wrong missions
[11:55]  * persia has been using "tribe" since becoming interested in Dunbar's number a few years ago
[11:56] <persia> elky, Oh, yeah.  Tribes have to be voluntary, self-selecting, and self-selecting of their leadership for a tribal society to function.  That interfaces incredibly poorly with any hierarchical structure based on functional division.
[11:57] <elky> and certain processes I've been seeing the past few years.
[11:58] <persia> heh, yeah.
[14:32] <MichealH> Hello Is there someone I can PM?
[14:32] <ikonia> MichealH: you have to be more specific
[14:32] <ikonia> MichealH: you've having a problem with the #ubuntu-youth channel yes/no ?
[14:32] <MichealH> Yes
[14:33] <ikonia> MichealH: you so want one of the operators from the #ubuntu-youth channel yes/no ?
[14:33] <MichealH> I know what happened but I think I was banned because of something unfair
[14:33] <ikonia> MichealH: you so want one of the operators from the #ubuntu-youth channel yes/no ?
[14:33] <MichealH> Well, I dont know
[14:34] <ikonia> do you want to talk to one of the ubuntu-youth operators to resolve having your ban removed
[14:34] <MichealH> Yes
[14:34] <ikonia> right
[14:34] <MichealH> But I dont think this will be resolved
[14:34] <ikonia> so the question you have is "Can an operator from #ubuntu-youth please PM me as I would like to resolve my ban"
[14:35] <MichealH> It wont get resolved
[14:35] <MichealH> They are under strict rules from the leader
[14:35] <ikonia> then discuss the ban in public in here and the operators will assist you
[14:35] <MichealH> Okay
[14:35] <ikonia> no-one in the #ubuntu name space is under strict instructions from the "leader"
[14:35] <MichealH> I got banned because I "Didnt contribute"
[14:36] <MichealH> Which Is not fair
[14:36] <MichealH> I was then getting some things trown at me saying I was a nothing but a big crybaby
[14:36] <ikonia> wait for one of the ubuntu-youth operators to be awake, then it can be discussed in here
[14:37] <MichealH> Okay
[14:38] <ikonia> or you could just leave without waiting
[14:38] <ikonia> what ever works for you

[14:52] <Seeker`> ikonia: ping
[14:52] <bazhang> MichealH, you here?
[14:52] <Seeker`> zkriesse: I believe that michealH wishes to discuss his ban
[14:52] <MichealH> bazhang, Yup
[14:52] <bazhang> you wished to resolve an issue with ops from -youth? MichealH
[14:52] <MichealH> Yes, I did
[14:53] <bazhang> zkriesse, is one? MichealH ?
[14:53] <ikonia> hello
[14:53] <MichealH> Yes bazhang
[14:53] <zkriesse> I already told him to discuss it with us
[14:53] <MichealH> Hello ikonia
[14:53] <ikonia> MichealH: now is the time to discuss while you have an operators attention
[14:53] <ikonia> Seeker`: nice one
[14:54] <MichealH> Welll... just because I don't contribute to a team well in my opinion is unfair to warrent a ban
[14:55] <zkriesse> It's not because you don't contribute
[14:55] <zkriesse> It's because you continue to not follow mine, and several
[14:55] <zkriesse> HIGHLY established ubuntu members advice
[14:55] <MichealH> So I have to follow your contributions?
[14:55] <MichealH> Okay
[14:56] <zkriesse> Your attitude is constantly one of someone who feels that everyone should know that you're awesome and bow to your superiority
[14:56] <zkriesse> While that doesn't happen all the time it happens enough
[14:57] <MichealH> And it was the fact you has made a joke out of this situaltion
[14:57] <zkriesse> It's not a joke to me
 ha
[14:57] <zkriesse> I thought you were going to be a rising star but those hopes have been lost
 that was a joke
[14:59] <MichealH> That, came out of a PM
[14:59] <Seeker`> may I ask what advice he didn't follow?
[15:00] <MichealH> Also, As I was getting banned, I was getting a lash of swear words coming at me
[15:01] <zkriesse> Seeker`: Rushing ahead, trying to do multiple projects at once (like ten), applying for ubuntu membership a month or two after being denied, and so on
[15:01] <Seeker`> what sort of projects?
[15:01] <zkriesse> MichealH: May I remind you that you once banned me from ubuntu youth because you got a little "pissy" ?
[15:01] <MichealH> zkriesse, It wasnt you
[15:01] <MichealH> It was annother guy
[15:02] <zkriesse> Seeker`: Reworking the forums omg ubuntu and other projects
[15:02] <zkriesse> MichealH: It
[15:02] <MichealH> But that was before this is now
[15:02] <zkriesse> Was me
[15:02] <Seeker`> zkriesse: and what happens to these projects?
[15:02] <MichealH> zkriesse, It wasnt
[15:02] <MichealH> Seeker`, What do you mean?
[15:03] <zkriesse> Seeker`: He's also stated that he wished to contribute to wiki but he's not started on the one project I've given him
[15:03] <MichealH> zkriesse, I am halfway through
[15:03] <Seeker`> do they get completed? abandoned? Does anyone assign MichealH these projects?
[15:03] <zkriesse> Seeker`: I don't know as I've not seen him finish one thing he's started yet
[15:03] <zkriesse> MichealH: You were half way through almost a month ago
[15:03] <MichealH> Seeker`, Usually, Completed
[15:04] <zkriesse> MichealH: I call bull on that
[15:04] <Seeker`> zkriesse: does anyone assign MichealH these projects?
[15:04] <zkriesse> I've got people to back me up....whom do you have who can show proof of your work
[15:05] <MichealH> Not backup of projects, But people on the forums which have seem me get involved
[15:05] <zkriesse> Seeker`: Myself, a wiki focus group for the beginners team if which im a member
[15:05] <zkriesse> If/of
[15:05] <Seeker`> zkriesse: don't assign him so many projects then?
[15:05] <MichealH> Seeker`, Yes, I have noticed that
[15:06] <MichealH> He assigns me to projects when I have annother in progress
[15:06] <zkriesse> Seeker`: I don't...he decides to jump on as many as possible. I told him to take no more than one at a time
[15:06] <zkriesse> At least no more than two
[15:07] <Seeker`> zkriesse: Well, noone can stop people doing what they like with their free time
[15:07] <zkriesse> Seeker`: I understand that
[15:07] <zkriesse> Which is fine
[15:07] <zkriesse> But when it hampers the success of a team it's a problem
[15:07] <Seeker`> zkriesse: If he wants to take on more things then noone should stop him. Assigning them to him just because he says "I'll do that" is probably a bad idea
[15:07] <MichealH> When was I stopping U-Y from progressing?
[15:08] <MichealH> I was helping kvarley woth that OggCast
[15:08] <MichealH> *woth
[15:08] <Seeker`> A possible resolution may be that there is an understanding that if MichealH is not officially assigned a project, it may well be given to someone else as a project, and there is no guarantee that MichealH's effort will actually be used?
[15:08] <MichealH> *with
[15:08] <zkriesse> MichealH: I needed wiki people to help document stuff
[15:08] <zkriesse> You were one of those very few people
[15:09] <zkriesse> I can't depend on you anymore
[15:09] <MichealH> zkriesse, But you didnt say
[15:09] <zkriesse> MichealH: Ive tried
[15:09] <zkriesse> You don't LISTEN
[15:10] <MichealH> Seeker`, I understand that If I don't officially assign It can get passed on
[15:10] <zkriesse> I've had questions/complaints from many folks who've said the same thing
[15:10] <MichealH> zkriesse, When? May I ask?
[15:10] <Seeker`> zkriesse: care to comment on my suggestion?
[15:10] <zkriesse> Seeker`: It's a good one but at this time the team pretty
[15:11] <zkriesse> Much doesn't want him around
[15:11] <MichealH> zkriesse, But I havent seen the project being given any say in what you do
[15:12] <MichealH> Once bilal wanted to do packaging classes but you told him NO straight away... With No say whatsoever from anyone
[15:12] <zkriesse> MichealH: Bullshit
[15:12] <Seeker`> zkriesse: language
[15:12] <MichealH> Seeker`, I get this most the time
[15:13] <zkriesse> He and the ops of the channel said we wanted A draft of what he wanted to do
[15:13] <zkriesse> He's working on it
[15:13] <MichealH> No, I said I wanted to do the website
[15:13] <MichealH> That was the ONE project I wanted to do
[15:13] <MichealH> Like you said
[15:14] <MichealH> I got denied and here we are
[15:14] <zkriesse> MichealH: You never asked to do the website
[15:14] <zkriesse> Another guy did
[15:15] <MichealH> zkriesse, But I at least suggested
[15:15] <zkriesse> We're holding off for Noe
[15:15] <MichealH> zkriesse, It would of then been up to you to say No we have someone on that
[15:15] <MichealH> Or to ask that person
[15:16] <zkriesse> MichealH: Did you not even pay attention in the meeting?!?!?
[15:17] <MichealH> zkriesse, I would have replied if you didnt devoice me and +m the channel?
[15:17] <Seeker`> this is going in circles
[15:17] <zkriesse> Seeker`: Yes it is
[15:17] <zkriesse> Seeker`: Old news....again and again
[15:17] <MichealH> Seeker`, It happens all the time
[15:17] <Seeker`> zkriesse: Is there anything to say that if MichealH is in the channel, you have to rely on him for the progress of the project?
[15:18] <zkriesse> At this time no..:but people will leave if he's around
[15:18] <zkriesse> Give me some time to calm them down
[15:19] <Seeker`> "some time"?
[15:19] <zkriesse> Like a
[15:19] <zkriesse> A day or
[15:19] <zkriesse> Dang it...
[15:19] <zkriesse> Stupid iPod
[15:20] <MichealH> Seeker`, I think he is asaying "Like a day or two"
[15:20] <ikonia> zkriesse: can you please summerise what the ban was for
[15:21] <zkriesse> His attitude with me, the other ops, and the team. He's been talked to gosh knows how many times before but it's perpetual...
[15:22] <zkriesse> I've had a team member say that they will never
[15:22] <zkriesse> Never come back because of him
[15:22] <ikonia> ok - so his attitude is driving memebers out
[15:22] <ikonia> is he rude/offensive/$something
[15:22] <MichealH> ikonia, I have never ever been rude
[15:23] <MichealH> Nor anything else
[15:23] <ikonia> MichealH: I'm askin zkriesse
[15:23] <MichealH> I am just being me
[15:23] <zkriesse> ikonia: Oh and perfect example. He doesn't know when not to speak
[15:24] <ikonia> zkriesse: that can be annoying, but what's the actual issue with his behaviour
[15:24] <zkriesse> But he's done that in regional membership board meetings
[15:24] <Seeker`> zkriesse: thats the regional board's problem :P
[15:24] <zkriesse> ikonia: His behavior, his attitude, and his response to team members
[15:25] <Seeker`> if they don't like it, they'll do something about it, we try to keep behaviour in seperate channels seperate. A ban in -offtopic doesn't mean a ban in #ubuntu
[15:26] <zkriesse> Seeker`: I understand that
[15:29] <zkriesse> By the way I'm currently on my iPod touch...my pc is at home where I'm not. When I get home I will find logs/examples of his behavior and pastebin them
[15:36] <AndrewMC> ok MichealH is unbanned from the Ubuntu Youth channel
[15:36] <MichealH> ThanksThanks
[15:37] <zkriesse> MichealH: Don't thank us...thank the irc ops
[15:37] <MichealH> Okay
[15:38] <MichealH> Thanks for helping us resolve the issue, Seeker` , ikonia , bazhang
[15:38] <MichealH> zkriesse, Am I able to join?