=== Zeike is now known as brandonj [08:47] godbyk: ping [08:48] nisshh: pong [08:48] godbyk: ah, your around, i have a question [08:48] yep. I'm on a weird sleep schedule (for now). :) [08:49] ah ok [08:49] godbyk: in this branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/ubuntu-developer-manual/python_chapter_odt [08:49] there is an odt file [08:49] can you have a look at it please [08:50] sure [08:50] there is some stuff in there that i dont know how to represent with latex [08:50] godbyk: tables specifically [08:51] Eh.. and they're big tables, too. [08:52] yea [08:52] How are you handling the python interpreter code (input and output) blocks? [08:52] just with the terminal command [08:52] seems to work fine [08:52] cool. okay. [08:53] godbyk: basically, the way im showing the tabled info in latex, im just listing it [08:53] but is there a better way? (not necessarily tables) [08:53] Well, you can create tables in LaTeX. [08:53] oh, you can? [08:54] But the default tables are only ones that fit on a single page. (And there are some other limitations.) [08:54] ah [08:54] so not very useful [08:54] You can use the longtable package (see http://ctan.org/pkg/longtable) to get the table to split across multiple pages. [08:54] But to be honest, I'd probably find a better way of showing that information. [08:54] yea [08:55] godbyk: any ideas? [08:55] Most of it is just showing examples of operators. [08:55] (At least the tables I've glanced at so far.) [08:55] look at the next section down [08:55] different info [08:55] For those, you could probably just do the normal 'quick sentence describing this operator, and oh, here's an example:' type thing. [08:56] yea [08:56] Or perhaps a table that shows the operator symbols and their meanings. Then the examples can follow. [08:57] hmmm, something to think about [08:57] godbyk: one thing to consider is that chapter is MASSIVE so im trying to shorten it a bit as well [08:58] so id rather not include any big bulky tables at all [08:58] Yeah, it is pretty packed with info. [08:59] tell me about it :) [09:00] godbyk: is it possible to have non-table columns in latex? [09:01] The short answer is 'yes'. [09:01] The longer answer depends more on what you had in mind. :) [09:01] hmmm [09:01] Do you mean multiple columns like what we use for the index in the Ubuntu manual? [09:01] Or do you mean more like a table when there rows are aligned somehow? [09:02] erm, multiple columns (i think) [09:02] like newspaper columns? [09:02] where the first column is filled, then the remainder of the text starts at the top of the second column, and so on? [09:03] no [09:03] not like that [09:04] exactly like the credits in the manual [09:04] that's using the same mechanism as the newspaper columns. [09:04] ah ok [09:04] then yes [09:05] though the columns are balanced, so they are as short (vertically) as they can be and still fit in all the text. [09:05] yea [09:05] to do that, just type \begin{multicols}{3} text goes here \end{multicols} [09:05] 3 is the number of columns you want. [09:05] (I think it maxes out at 12 or something like that.) [09:06] ok [09:06] yea [09:06] i only need 3 or 4 so it should be ok [09:07] And if you want the columns to spread across the entire page width (i.e., to spread into the margin notes area, too), wrap the multicols stuff in \begin{fullwidth} ... \end{fullwidth}. [09:07] ok [09:10] oh bugger, godbyk has jenkins taken the tex PPA down? [09:13] I think he was fixing something in it and couldn't re-upload it or something. [09:14] hmm, yea, he disabled the ppa [09:14] dammit [09:14] just when i need latex [09:14] well, you can always use the old-school instructions. [09:14] yea, thats what im looking for now [09:15] its just ill have to download more, and itll pake longer than the ppa [09:15] http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors#install-tl2009 [09:15] didn't the ppa contain the same files? [09:16] godbyk: yea, it does, but the manual way installed alot of extra stuff that the ppa doesnt [09:17] which isnt required to compile the manual [09:17] I've started a pad with a list of changes for maverick [09:17] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-maverick << go and look at it and add stuff, go go go [09:17] humphreybc: forgot about mine did you? [09:17] nisshh: ? [09:17] humphreybc: i created one ages back [09:17] oh [09:18] link? [09:18] someone didn't read the email thread. :-) [09:18] hehe [09:18] one sec [09:18] "New bolder, more prominent and colourful cover"? [09:18] http://typewith.me/h2Y9bitvCI [09:18] ah ha [09:18] thorwil: yeah, get working :P [09:19] humphreybc: thats the one [09:19] humphreybc: when you comment on bug you can atleast subscribe to it ;) [09:19] ;p [09:19] humphreybc: do it yourself! [09:19] vish: I thought I got automatically subscribed [09:19] thorwil: bah [09:19] humphreybc: yeah , lp is silly about that :) [09:19] thorwil: that's what your job is [09:19] vish: hehe, your the new comment & subscribe police now :) [09:20] thorwil: you have one thing to do each release, make the title page :P [09:20] nisshh: yeah , for this bug! i want everyone to subscribe to humphreybc's craziness ;p [09:20] vish: I think your original comment about adding more data might have annoyed more people than I did :) [09:21] hehe [09:21] nisshh: can we migrate your things to my pad, I have links to articles for more info :) [09:21] humphreybc: sure will do [09:21] humphreybc: no. you should know by now that i don't work on a basis like "make it bolder" just out of a whim [09:21] humphreybc: yep, i was annoyed about a bug being filed with no actual description to the problem ;) [09:21] vish: ooh.. which bug? I wanna witness craziness! [09:21] ah you did already [09:21] humphreybc: you should email the list with that link. [09:21] oh wait, wrong link [09:21] vish: you should know by now that this sort of thing is unavoidable and the bug comments should just be allowed to flow [09:21] godbyk: i just did [09:22] ah, 'kay. [09:22] i would disagree with how this has transcribed [09:22] vish: no matter how you look at it, the wallpaper sucks donkey balls [09:22] godbyk: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers/+bug/625193/comments/0 [09:22] Launchpad bug 625193 in ubuntu-wallpapers "Official 10.10 wallpaper is unappealing" [Wishlist,Triaged] [09:23] godbyk: is there any basis for that bug? it just seems like mob mentality to me, rather than a person actually complaining about the wallpaper [09:23] vish: oh, that one. [09:23] vish is at the wallpaper again :D [09:23] vish: ugh.. wait for me to wade through the new comments. last time I read them, it was just a bunch of whinging. lemme see if there's anything more productive now. [09:24] * humphreybc is pretty tired about the wallpaper now [09:24] humphreybc: i'm not actually worried about the wallpaper , i would rather live with an even worse wallpaper, than reward such behavior ;) [09:24] vish: i'm personally not *worried* about it, I can obviously change it. I'm worried for everyone else. [09:24] humphreybc: You were the one who called it a joke :) [09:24] humphreybc: i just noticed all the OMG links in the pad, lol, you should be OMG's Marketing Manager [09:25] nisshh: don't mention OMG! when vish is around [09:25] bilalakhtar: hehe [09:25] nisshh: easiest place to find information [09:25] oops [09:25] true [09:25] because the search actually works unlike the wiki :) [09:25] vish: as bad as some might behave, you create the appearance of protecting both that wallpaper design and the way it was silently introduced. you really shouldn't do that, as least as long your are not on the canonical payroll [09:25] and often, there are more detailed explanations and screenshots than wiki specifications which are fairly ambiguous [09:26] good point [09:26] humphreybc: you guys should close commenting on the site until people calm down and learn some manners [09:26] vish: we actively moderate comments [09:26] why would we close comments down on a site that gets 8 million views a month? [09:27] thorwil: its a launchpad *Ubuntu* bug, and filed in ubuntu, not something that was filed in canonical tracker [09:27] vish: It has been confirmed that this is not the final wallpaper, then why are you still protecting the design? [09:27] bilalakhtar: I wouldn't say it's confirmed that it's not the default at all [09:27] bilalakhtar: i'm not protecting any design.. ;) [09:27] Andrea (who' [09:28] Andrea (who's a contractor for canonical) said "who said it's the final?" [09:28] that's not exactly "this is not the final." [09:28] and when have they ever landed an alpha wallpaper on the UI freeze in a cycle before, then gone on to change it later on? Never! [09:28] vish: You're the one who started the discussion about OMG! . You are the one who is the other side of the coin in the wally bug [09:29] anyway, all of this is off topic [09:29] bilalakhtar: no.. i'm talking about the way that bug was filed! [09:29] we're here to talk about the manual [09:29] this discussion is better off i #ayatana [09:29] *in [09:29] yeqah [09:29] so bugger off and go there [09:29] its better of no where ;p [09:29] (still reading bug comments. *sigh*) [09:29] now, let's talk about this manual [09:30] apart from the natural changes that come with a new release, we are going to make some changes to the manual itself [09:30] like, actually talk and not just listen to vague requirements thrown out by humphreybc? [09:30] * bilalakhtar installs quickshot [09:30] hehe [09:30] thorwil: ++ [09:30] oh, snap! point to thorwil! :-) [09:30] thorwil: do you want to lead the project? [09:31] oh damn, this is getting good [09:31] thorwil: ++ [09:31] humphreybc: no. i want to either go about design in a seriois manner or not at all [09:31] * bilalakhtar is curious why everyone's mind is moving away from the manual on this channel [09:31] bilalakhtar: because everyone hates me :) [09:32] * bilalakhtar doesn't hate humphreybc [09:32] yeah, humphreybc sucks ;p! [09:32] * vish hides [09:32] humphreybc: translation: if you want thorwil to design a new cover, you'll have to chat with him and provide a better description of what you're looking for, etc. [09:32] thorwil: I'd like a bolder wallpaper. It's a suggestion, not a demand, but we have to start somewhere [09:32] so this is the start of the discussion [09:32] hence why I'm actually in the channel [09:32] wallpaper? [09:32] i've been tied up with other things until just now [09:32] no, not wallpaper [09:32] wait [09:32] sorry [09:32] lol [09:32] i'm tired and confused :D [09:33] _cover page_ [09:33] lol, wallpaper again :D [09:33] humphreybc: merged my pad with yours :) [09:33] thanks nisshh [09:33] np [09:33] humphreybc: so expand on 'bolder'. what do you mean by that? what's the message you want to convey with the cover page? [09:33] humphreybc: wasnt the initial plan of the cover page to not keep redoing it every cycle? atleast i was of that impression , thorwil ? [09:33] humphreybc: the quickshot ppa is still having packages for lucid, no maverick packages :( what should I do? I am running maverick [09:34] humphreybc: i have been thinking about more emotive ways to bring the same things across the current icons do. no easy task [09:34] this looks nice http://www.amazon.com/Official-Ubuntu-Book-Benjamin-Mako/dp/0137081308/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283243654&sr=8-4 [09:34] ie: only change the release # ofcourse... [09:34] I know that aubergine is for commercial, orange for community [09:34] humphreybc: there's a strategy behind the current design and i don't want to drop it. that strategy could be changed, but the replacement has to make sense [09:34] Oh, hey, thorwil.. while you're here. Have you looked at the Ubuntu font much? Should I give it a try for the headings? [09:35] vish: no, we should have a new cover each cycle [09:35] (I haven't had time to play with the font much. I just got a copy of it a couple days ago.) [09:35] hmm.. [09:35] thorwil: sure, but that's what you're here to think about, right? [09:35] hmm..., "new cover each cycle"! , /me lucky thorwil is the design lead :D [09:35] vish: I thought that continuity was discussed at one point, but I don't recall the outcome. [09:36] Morning [09:36] a completely new cover each cycles is the opposite of showing continuity and building trust and looking like we know what we do [09:36] each cycle has a new book [09:36] vish: no doubt! [09:36] they should be differentiated [09:36] I didn't really want to talk about the cover page much now, I'll start a thread in the list and we can discuss it over the next few days [09:37] sound cool? [09:37] godbyk: i think the ubuntu font is not at all compatible with the libertine/biolinum fonts [09:37] humphreybc: ok [09:38] thorwil: It's definitely a different style, that's for sure. [09:39] humphreybc: check the pad about indicator applets again [09:39] godbyk: i doubt it will ever be a good choice for long text, but finding a good match for it ... hard [09:39] thorwil: Agreed. I was looking at using it only for the chapter and section headings. [09:40] Has the ubuntu font been opened to the public? [09:40] no [09:40] The sidenotes and captions would use the Linux Libertine typeface. And Biolinum would be dropped completely. [09:41] I see things are moving forward now. [09:41] godbyk: it kind of would be nice to use the new font somewhere [09:41] headers seem like a good plan [09:41] On the Coverpage [09:41] (we're using the ubuntu font on the new OMG! Ubuntu! site and it looks great) [09:42] ChrisWoollard: I would say definitely on the cover page... but it will limit translations as the character set isn't very verbose at the moment [09:42] humphreybc: It would be nice, but only if it actually works for our purposes. [09:42] godbyk: yaeh [09:42] we should try it [09:43] godbyk: i suspect a sans font like Liberation Sans or Gillius might go better with it. for serifs, maybe Charis. but that would be taking te ubuntu font because it is the ubuntu font and forcing it in, somehow [09:43] thorwil: Right. I don't want to force it in just because it's the Ubuntu font. [09:44] I'll play around with it for headings sometime and see how it looks. [09:44] I'm not holding my breath though. [09:44] yeah [09:44] From the bug reports I've seen, there appear to be a lot of tracking/kerning issues. [09:44] maybe for narwhal [09:44] okay, so one of the biggest changes from lucid is the combination of two chapters [09:45] the manual is going to get _shorter_ [09:46] humphreybc: why's it getting shorter? [09:46] it needs to live up to it's "Getting Started" title [09:46] humphreybc: whats happening to stuff like the troubleshooting chapter? getting axed? [09:46] godbyk: chapters are merging [09:46] currently, we're baffling users with information beyond "getting started" [09:47] as we prepare for USLC, this information should move to the net and the manual should serve as a stepping stone for them to learn the basics to do their tasks, then if they want to learn more, we should encourage them to use USLC [09:47] ah. have you seen any feedback from folks who have actually read the book or used it? [09:48] nope but I'd like to see some [09:48] iv seen a bit on UF [09:48] I think all the feedback I've seen has been along the lines of, 'Oh, hey, look! A free Ubuntu book!' [09:48] nisshh: oh yeah? [09:48] godbyk: yeah totally [09:48] mainly just, "its great, made it easy" [09:48] that's something we need to address - reaching the right people [09:48] nothing in depth [09:48] humphreybc: So what leads you to think that our readers (if they do exist) are baffled? [09:48] iv seen a fair few people recommending it on UF as well [09:48] atleast 10-15 people [09:49] godbyk: nothing, but I don't think we need to have "managing software through the terminal" when the Software Center is now mature enough. [09:49] "managing software through the terminal" is NOT fundamental to "getting started with Ubuntu" [09:49] How about a feedback form on the website? [09:49] we could do that when the maverick edition gets released ChrisWoollard :) [09:50] humphreybc: true. though having an intro to doing that sort of thing might be handy, since the instructions they'll find on the internet are of that nature. [09:50] you do NOT need to know how to manage software through the terminal to use Ubuntu successfully and complete everyday tasks like listening to music, surfing the web or installing/removing software. [09:50] godbyk: Right, so that's what I want. [09:50] we should let them know other ways exist [09:50] good point [09:50] humphreybc: for instance, when OMG! posts a review of a new program, they give those apt-get instructions. not click here, then here, etc. [09:50] but since this is a GETTING STARTED guide, those advanced topics will be available on the net [09:50] godbyk: sure [09:51] I just chose that example [09:51] and anyway, that's OMG! Ubuntu!'s problem [09:51] the manual shouldn't include a section to make it easy for OMG! readers to install software [09:51] we can allude that commands exist, show them how to open a terminal, maybe list some common commands [09:52] but we don't need step by step guides [09:52] Well, it's not just OMG! The forums tend to do that, blogs do that, etc. [09:52] godbyk: once again, just an example [09:52] I suspect the reason is that it's shorter to give the commands than guide someone through the GUI. [09:52] who said people on forums and OMG! Ubuntu! are teaching it the right way? [09:53] would my Mum actually go and read OMG! or sign up to UF? [09:53] nope [09:53] who's our target audience? Very different to people who are involved in the community, I imagine [09:53] humphreybc: When will the Quickshot PPA be ready for maverick? [09:53] You're suggesting that your mum doesn't even read your articles? Wow, that's harsh! :-P [09:53] lol [09:54] godbyk: she's harsh [09:54] bilalakhtar: something to ask jenkins [09:54] * bilalakhtar checks if the lucid package works no maverick [09:54] s/no/on/ [09:54] anyway, what I'm saying, is currently the manual has a lot of unnecessary sections, while missing important sections [09:54] and that [09:54] and that's to be expected because it was originally rushed together [09:55] humphreybc: something else we need to consider is the relevancy of the screenshots [09:55] nisshh: yeah totally [09:55] we need to get the file size down more too [09:55] some of them are pretty pointless [09:55] want to get it on the CD [09:55] whereas others are essential [09:55] yea [09:55] been talking to Jono and Jorge, they like the idea, just need to post to ubuntu-desktop about it [09:55] yea [09:55] size is an issue though [09:56] humphreybc: well, i reckon we could get below 2MB's for maverick. with everything we are removing and shuffling around [09:57] (contrary to popular belief, I don't just pull these ideas out of my arse, I do have a plan) [09:57] but it appears the team's faith in me has been reduced to nearly zero [09:58] lets all join hands and pronounce our faith to humphreybc :) [09:58] humphreybc: its probably just because you have been around much less lately [09:58] * thorwil pronounces 0.1 faith [09:58] humphreybc: Sorry, I don't do faith. I prefer to know what's going on behind the curtain. :) [09:59] nisshh: that would be because during the lucid cycle I was on holiday, during this cycle i've been at uni [09:59] during the narwhal cycle i'll be on holiday again [09:59] humphreybc: ah, exactly [09:59] * godbyk also doesn't blindly follow orders. :) [09:59] thorwil: godbyk: fun fact: Ubuntu does not have to use any of canonical's work. but Ubuntu *chooses* to.. Ubuntu can decide to not use the appmenu or anything from Canonical.. ;) [09:59] godbyk: sit! stay! :) [09:59] vish: I don't know who would decide not to when all the developers are employed by Canonical [10:00] and anyway, pretty sure Canonical owns the intellectual property related to Ubuntu [10:00] vish: now how's that for good behaviour, you derailer of discussions!!! ;) [10:00] vish: stop going off topic [10:00] heh [10:00] humphreybc: what are you doing up late this night? [10:01] vish: it's 9pm [10:01] humphreybc: or is football better conversation? ;p [10:01] ? [10:01] * nisshh is getting more and more confused [10:02] vish: you're not helping [10:02] maybe I should come back later when everyone actually wants to do something? [10:02] humphreybc: Who knows when that'll be! [10:03] lol [10:03] humphreybc: PM me [10:03] heh, see how easy/annoying it is for others ? ;) [10:04] godbyk: vish: if you have a problem with me, it's better to tell me rather than playing games [10:04] humphreybc: dude!!!!!!!! wtf? now who has a problem? why are you taking it personal? [10:04] humphreybc: What games? And I don't have a problem with you. [10:04] meh.. [10:04] This is the most activity that's taken place in this channel in weeks. [10:05] no kidding [10:05] it's not my fault that I am busy? [10:05] Aside from this, the only other conversation that's taken place in the past week has been flan and jenkins carrying on about quickshot dev stuff. [10:05] if you guys are keen to get started on the manual then you don't have to wait for me [10:05] seems to me that you're pissed off that I haven't been around much [10:06] humphreybc: surely its not me! i'v just been lurking here ;) [10:06] I've been pretty busy myself lately, so I can't complain much. I've been trying to get folks to start work. So far nothing's happened, though. [10:06] * humphreybc sighs [10:06] (I haven't had time to really get things organized, though.) [10:08] I think something we need to do ASAP is coerce people to commit to updating/writing each section of the manual. [10:08] The repository is ready for use. [10:10] godbyk: consider me working on it after dinner tonight [10:10] godbyk: if we can get all the changes as bug reports then there will be things to assign and track [10:11] then we can mail to the list and say "hey, here are a dozen open bugs that need to be fixed - go go go!" [10:11] right after latex finishes installing anyway [10:12] bbl [10:16] see you soon nisshh [10:17] This odd. I go for breakfast and when i get back it looks like a fight has broken out. [10:17] ChrisWoollard: nah, I'm just tired, thorwil is being thorwil and vish has ants in his pants [10:17] ChrisWoollard: Heh.. see what happens when you step away for a moment? [10:18] humphreybc: ! ;p [10:18] And I'm nobody. :-( [10:18] hahaha [10:18] All I say is...... By nice...... [10:18] s/By/Be [10:19] godbyk: you're infrastructure ;) [10:19] humphreybc: actually, i did not see the channel having a conversation.. i was scrolled up higher! and replied to something else on top.. looks like someone was just touchy today ;p [10:19] vish: see, you have to leave the ants to humphreybc's pants [10:20] thorwil: lol. thanks! [10:20] vish: hahaha [10:20] nice [10:20] Anyway. I am not sure what I can commit to yet. I have to complete a job application which will be a knightmare. [10:20] ChrisWoollard: You're applying to be a knight? Awesome! [10:20] It needs to be in at the end of the week [10:20] ChrisWoollard: fighting some dragons? [10:20] That would be easier [10:21] watch out, I hear they breathe fire [10:21] The people on the interview panal do. [10:21] panel [10:22] * popey tickles humphreybc [10:22] popey: bit stressed at the moment :) [10:22] run, popey, run! :) [10:23] ChrisWoollard: Ugh.. I hate interview panels. I always feel like I'm in front of a firing squad. [10:23] * popey reloads [10:23] This is only a sideways step in my company as well. [10:24] You have to jump through all those hopes for a lateral transfer, ChrisWoollard? Wow! [10:24] ChrisWoollard: bummer! [10:24] I hope it's worth it! [10:24] Yes. It is a knightmare. [10:25] They haven't even just advertised it internally either. It has gone external too. My manger is a complete git! [10:26] ChrisWoollard: what do you do? [10:26] surely thats a good thing? [10:26] get the best person for the job [10:26] Senior Systems Engineer [10:28] popey: Unless you want the job and you're not the best person. ;-) [10:28] :) === humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: #offtopic [10:28] Manage websites / VMware / Apache / ORacle etc [10:28] Look out! He's invoking op powers! [10:28] i think he meant to do that in #omg!ubuntu! [10:28] can't believe I remembered that [10:28] * vish lols at the topic!!!!! [10:28] where they're currently discussing losing their virginity [10:28] popey: HA [10:28] that sounds about right [10:28] popey: is MichaelH in on that too? [10:29] * popey hands humphreybc the /join command [10:29] I don't care enough [10:29] lol [10:29] * popey notes [10:29] * humphreybc is about ready for a bed after a very long day methinks [10:30] Oh good, a Louis Theroux doco is on! [10:32] oh god! [10:32] http://www.3news.co.nz/Beer-pong-making-a-splash-in-Dunedin/tabid/728/articleID/173369/Default.aspx [10:32] and I thought beer pong was reserved for terrible American high school movies [10:33] humphreybc: Apparently it's now reserved for that and for Dunedin inhabitants. === humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: beer pong [10:33] godbyk: I live in Dunedin. Maybe I should get in on that. [10:33] humphreybc: Totally. [10:34] I'm watching meth-heads on TV === humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: meth-heads [10:34] Since when did the topic start to be changed based on whatever is being talked about? === humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: changing the topic to whatever is being talked about [10:35] ChrisWoollard: looks like humphreybc just remembered the /topic command ;) [10:35] And how to elevate his privileges [10:36]