[02:20] was someone looking for me about the -rt kernel? [02:21] ScottL: 1283200465 15:34:25 < cjwatson> curious what they're going to do about the linux-headers-rt recommendation from ubuntustudio-desktop, given that linux-rt's been removed [02:22] thanks nhandler [02:52] cjwatson, hopefully tomorrow i'll take care of the linux-headers-rt recommendation in ubuntustudio-desktop [03:04] cjwatson: that's fine, I fpassed out before I saw your message or I would have done it [03:29] ^^ per mvo's request this morning; note that this bug only affects upgrades from systems that aren't up-to-date on lucid-updates, so may not be worth accepting before beta [03:30] Depends on testing methodologies: lots of folks try to do the install/dist-upgrade trick on a VM, and may not remember to update first. [07:45] slangasek: \o/ for fixing the ifupdown #620956 === ara_ is now known as ara [09:14] ev: the standalone installer seems to be working in Kubuntu but when clicking "Try Kubuntu" it goes to the slideshow rather than the live session [09:14] morning all! [09:15] when do we expect the first candidate images? [09:15] cronjob was still enabled last I heard, so today's dailies should be candidates as they become available. [09:16] I believe this will take at least two more hours, perhaps a bit more. [09:16] Err, rather, I'm doing math wrong. Should be any time now. [09:29] ev: hum, the installer seems to freeze this VM [09:35] ev: bug 625586 I guess [09:35] Launchpad bug 625586 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity killed by OOM killer (affects: 2) (heat: 1154)" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/625586 [09:35] the install does complete fine for me if you ignore the UI freeze [09:40] hrm, lamont i cant reach sycamore or acorn through http, are they down ? [09:40] (builds failed as well it seems) [09:53] bug 627284 [09:53] Launchpad bug 627284 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Try Kubuntu leads to slideshow not live CD (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627284 [09:54] lamont, hmm, in fact i cant reach *any* of the livefs builders [09:54] * ogra wonders whats going on here [10:02] sycamore.buildd starting at Tue Aug 31 10:02:07 BST 2010 [10:02] ssh: connect to host sycamore.buildd port 22: No route to host [10:02] sycamore.buildd finished at Tue Aug 31 10:02:10 BST 2010 (failed) [10:02] geez [10:02] I can't reach acorn or sycamore either, but e.g. kapok is fine [10:03] are terranova and king still livefs builders ? [10:03] no [10:03] ah, k [10:03] cardamom weddell royal concordia all work fine. clementine is reachable but doesn't have a ~buildd directory. [10:03] clementine is dead since maverick started [10:03] from which I infer that I forgot to update livefs-build-logs-mirror [10:03] acorn took over [10:04] and sycamore is a new one for omap4 builds only [10:04] well, that would be why you haven't been getting your logs on the web ;-) [10:05] I'd recommend asking #is about those hosts being down; lamont probably won't be around for a few hours yet [10:05] cjwatson, yeah, sorry, my fault i should have pinged you about it ... i personally look directly on the buildd nowadays so i forgot [11:24] * cjwatson wonders why the kubuntu daily has uninstallable packages [11:25] building updated kubuntu dvds since those wouldn't normally happen today [11:32] <\sh> moins :) can some approve last zend-framework upload 1.10.8 (bug fix only upload -> bug #627319) [11:32] Launchpad bug 627319 in zend-framework (Ubuntu) "zend-framework 1.10.8 (bugfix release) (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627319 [11:44] clementine is a recycled name (sorry) and not a livecd builder. sycamore was down, is now back up <-- ogra, cjwatson [11:44] lamont, yeah, i'm alreday building on it again :) [11:44] \sh: accepted [11:45] ogra: acorn was not on my list of hate as of last night, though. [11:45] it did build the dove and omap3 images but was dead when i tried to reach it today [11:46] must have gotten annoyed after I went offline [11:46] <\sh> Riddell, thx... [11:46] heh, yeah, it needs its master :) [11:47] <\sh> Riddell, when you are at it...could you review bug #627337 and think about it ?? :) [11:47] Launchpad bug 627337 in ubuntu "[FFE] FAI 3.4 for Ubuntu Maverick (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627337 [11:51] acorn and sycamore build logs will now be mirrored [11:51] ogra: you want to kick rebuilds? [11:52] cjwatson, running since ~30min already [11:52] ok [12:09] ogra: what ARM images are you expecting to build for beta? [12:11] * cjwatson starts sorting out the tracker [12:13] cjwatson, thanks! [12:13] ubuntu alternates both oversized [12:14] hmm, why isn't "Maverick Beta" an option on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/admin/addbuild ? [12:15] stgraber: ^- do you know? I added it in http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/admin/milestone [12:15] Riddell: I've committed a fix for bug 627284. You're not in -installer, so I wasn't sure if you would notice. [12:15] Launchpad bug 627284 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Try Kubuntu leads to slideshow not live CD (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627284 [12:15] ev: are there ubiquity fixes pending for beta? [12:16] cjwatson: I was just going to ask. What are my chances of getting a respin? [12:16] 'cos I was about to start posting desktops, once the tracker will let me [12:16] what's your timeframe? [12:16] as yes, there are fixes I'd like to see in [12:16] can you upload right away? [12:16] yes [12:16] please do then [12:17] should I do the usual freeze exception dance, or are you happy to push it through? [12:18] please just upload it [12:18] I'll check it over in the queue [12:18] will do, thanks [12:18] have we had a translations update recently? [12:18] ... apparently so [12:27] <\sh> ScottK, thx [12:28] * cjwatson fixes Ubuntu alternate oversizedness [12:28] hm, there's been an issue updating the seed mirrors for the last week [12:29] actually it was probably ok, just slow [12:31] thanks ev [12:32] sure thing, sorry for the screw up there [12:32] cjwatson: uploaded [12:55] ev: accepted (please push the debcommit -r bit to bzr?) [12:56] cjwatson: done, thanks [12:57] cjwatson: could you take a look at kdenetwork in unapproved? it's needed to stop libavcodecs being pulled onto the CD [12:58] ok, is that what the uninstallables are about? [12:58] cjwatson: yes [12:59] accepted [13:00] seb128: is there any of this gnome update that's beta-critical, as opposed to would-be-nice? [13:00] I wasn't available yesterday to review it and it doesn't look like others did, and I'd like to start building beta candidates v. soon [13:01] we have a slot for a small number of them if they're needed [13:01] cjwatson, hi [13:01] cjwatson, those are not beta stopper no [13:02] I pinged slangasek about the important ones yesterday [13:02] we might still want to get some unity changes in the next hour [13:02] ah, ok, so those went in? [13:02] do you think there is a margin to wait a bit for UNE? [13:02] cjwatson, yes [13:02] I can hold off on building netbook, yes [13:02] plenty of other stuff to do [13:02] would be nice, just for an hour [13:02] I want to sort the status with njpatel when he's online [13:02] I have to wait 1.5 hours or so for ubiquity and kdenetwork anyway [13:03] they are sprinting in canada this week [13:03] he should be there rsn [13:03] ok [13:04] I wonder if I can do anything about the powerpc desktop oversizedness [13:04] that's the only oversized thing left, I think [13:04] a [13:05] probably not a whole lot [13:20] cjwatson, Given how long it's been since Windows worked on powerpc, the lupin and casper-lupin stuff could be dropped (although that might be deeper than you want to play today) [13:25] persia: thanks, done, though it won't make much difference [13:26] Riddell, ubuntu-netbook for omap3 and 4, kubuntu and kubuntu-mobile for omap3, no idea what NCommander's plans for dove are [13:27] ogra: I'll attempt to test tomorrow, can't now [13:27] NCommander, what images do you plan to have rolled ofr beta was the question [13:27] *for [13:28] * persia doesn't see anything else obvious, seeing use cases for ntfs, and knowing the reasons libdrm-intel is there. [13:28] Riddell, nobody in the team will have time to test any of the kubuntu ones though, so testing these is up to the community [14:25] cjwatson, ok, do we still have a margin to have changes in before the end of the hour out of UNE or is late for that? [14:25] go ahead [14:26] cjwatson, the shotwell update has small changes and fix import issues and a crasher if you can review that, rather a would be nice to have [14:27] cjwatson, evo in the queue just fix some files installed at the wrong location, that should make the default signature work and have a menu entry in internet [14:27] cjwatson, I will upload rsn a telepathy-logger update with a recommends on libdconf0 [14:28] seems we got bitten again by the "libglib2.0-0 recommends are not installed" I asked you about at the sprint [14:28] ie dconf doesn't get pulled on the iso which leads to have different programs falling back to use the default glib backend which has no storage [14:29] and I will have an unity update for UNE before end of the hour [14:29] I think that's it by checking with different desktop and dx people [14:32] ara, cjwatson: anything blocking using the current server ISO daily as the beta candidate ? Or are we waiting for something to show up to respin ? [14:32] ttx, I don't know. I am waiting as well for images to appear in the tracker [14:41] ttx: I need help with the tracker, which is refusing to let me post images for Maverick Beta [14:41] 14:38 cjwatson: ara is probably the person to talk to about qatracker [14:41] ara: ^- can you help? [14:42] * ttx shakes its fist towards the tracker to see if it helps [14:42] cjwatson, sure, what's the issue? [14:42] 12:57 Can somebody look at iso.qa.ubuntu.com for me? I added a "Maverick Beta" milestone using http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/admin/milestone, but it's not showing up in the drop-down at the [14:42] bottom of http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/admin/addbuild [14:42] 12:57 I'm wondering if it needs some kind of manual push [14:42] sigh, I wish seb128 had told me about those uploads when I asked earlier [14:43] cjwatson, I'll have a look [14:43] I bet that'll mean another hour [14:43] cjwatson, I see that milestone in the dropdown [14:43] cjwatson, (the first of the list) [14:44] cjwatson, the ordering of that list could be wiser, that's true [14:44] oh, sigh, ok [14:44] can you change the default? [14:44] which is currently Lucid 10.04.1 [14:45] ttx: posted [14:45] cjwatson: thanks ! [14:47] re, sorry system crash on user switching [14:47] cjwatson, done [14:47] seb128: would have been nice to know earlier :-/, but shotwell and evolution accepted now [14:47] ara: thanks [14:48] might be 1530 UTC or so before I can start building candidates [14:48] cjwatson, sorry I was set on the "let them roll beta iso we can get those later", but somebody raised the dconf issue [14:48] cjwatson, so I figured we will need to get that anyway so... [14:49] how long will telepathy-logger be? [14:49] thanks [14:49] I'm uploading now [14:49] I was about when my box crashed [15:00] cjwatson, telepathy-logger shows up in the queue [15:01] accepted, thanks [15:02] thank you [15:20] cjwatson: kdenetwork and ubiquity seem to be in, can I build kubuntu candidate CDs? [15:20] can I do it please [15:20] sure [15:22] building [15:22] * cjwatson looks suspiciously at how all his jigdo attempts today yield checksum errors [15:23] wonder if there's a problem on my local mirror ... [15:24] * ttx expects a eucalyptus upload fixing a few beta-targeted bugs, that will generate a server ISO respin. [15:37] cjwatson: is your issue fixed ? [15:38] stgraber: yes, thanks [15:38] seb128: is unity-asset-pool for beta, and is there anything else in that list? [15:39] cjwatson, yes and unity which is coming in 2 minutes [15:39] that's UNE only [15:39] and we should be done then [15:39] we are done for desktop already [15:48] hm, about server ISOs: looking at the potenial euca upload, there is nothing worth a respin there. So we won't respin over that one alone. [16:49] seb128: any news on unity? [16:49] cjwatson, hum, I uploaded an hour ago, let me see what happened [16:50] Rejected: [16:50] dpkg-source failed for unity_0.2.32-0ubuntu3.dsc [return: 29] [16:50] hum [16:50] cjwatson, can we change a source to format 3 in a new revision? [16:51] tar: data/trash.png: Cannot open: File exists [16:51] tar: data/files.png: Cannot open: File exists [16:51] tar: data/applications.png: Cannot open: File exists [16:51] yes [16:51] doesn't mean you can ship files in the .debian.tar.gz that exist in the .orig.tar.gz though [16:51] oh :-( [16:52] at least I don't think so [16:52] though actually that seems slightly odd [16:52] but can you stick them under debian/ instead as a workaround? [16:52] sure [16:52] weird that it works there [16:53] I can dpkg-source -x it [16:53] the dpkg-source -x failure is reproducible on cocoplum [16:53] dpkg-dev 1.15.5.6ubuntu1~1.IS.PATCHED.8.04 [16:54] maybe it's a bug that was fixed since? [16:54] could be [16:54] in any case I'm going to fix that, sorry for the delay :-( [16:55] I don't see anything obvious in the dpkg changelog [16:55] maybe report a bug and attach the uploaded files [16:55] spinning other images in the meantime [16:55] ok, let me get a valid upload in first [16:58] cjwatson: Where are we wrt spinning mythbuntu images? The mythbuntu-common in the queue is desired, but not required for beta. [16:59] I've reviewed it and it seems OK if it won't hurt ISO generation signfificantly. [17:02] $ echo ubuntu; for-project ubuntu cron.daily; buildlive ubuntu && for-project ubuntu cron.daily-live; echo xubuntu; for-project xubuntu cron.daily; buildlive xubuntu && for-project xubuntu cron.daily-live; echo ubuntustudio; for-project ubuntustudio cron.daily; echo mythbuntu; buildlive mythbuntu && for-project mythbuntu cron.daily-live [17:02] currently in Ubuntu daily-live [17:02] go ahead and accept it [17:02] may not quite make that build but we can respin quickly [17:03] OK. Thanks. [17:04] Done. [17:10] cjwatson, ubiquity is crashing for me on kubuntu [17:10] bug 627489 [17:10] Launchpad bug 627489 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity crashes in Kubuntu (Maverick Beta candidate) (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627489 [17:11] ev: ^- [17:12] looking [17:17] ugh, fixing [17:23] I also saw this yesterday on the http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/ports/daily-preinstalled/20100830/maverick-preinstalled-desktop-armel+omap.img.gz image. [17:23] Hadn't had time to look at it though. [17:31] cjwatson, unity uploaded again let's see how it goes this time [17:32] cjwatson, it's in the queue [17:35] damnit, desktops oversized again [17:35] quite dramatically - I wonder what happened [17:38] unity accepted [17:40] thanks [17:42] ev: I'm not sure if I have the same kubuntu installer issue or not. Could you quickly scan my logs at http://members.dsl-only.net/~tdavis/oem-config-crash.tgz? This is on omap (armel) platform. [17:42] If it isn't the same, I'll look into it more and file a bug asap. [17:43] oh, argh, oversized because we've just picked up the last week's worth of seed changes in one go [17:43] * cjwatson cries a little bit inside [17:48] and since the necessary change is in the live task, we'll need the usual publisher runs to fix it. I'll try to speed it up a bit [17:51] (running 'LPCONFIG=ftpmaster-publish /srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current/cronscripts/publishing/cron.germinate' by hand as lp_publish@cocoplum, since we're at the right time for that to be a useful speedup) [18:12] BTW, Ubuntu alternate and Xubuntu alternate posted [18:12] Thanks [18:22] umm, those images don't exist for xubuntu alternate on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily [18:26] well, got them now [18:26] wait, it's just slow [18:27] Thanks [18:28] * charlie-tca is in a hurry. It could a long time to sync them on his s-l-o-w connection now [18:28] xubuntu desktop posted [18:28] Thanks [18:28] hey, I've been downloading a single poxy cd for a couple of hours [18:30] maybe a non-poxy one would download faster [18:30] oh! Maybe mine is just as good, then :-) [18:30] slangasek: if poxy == large :-) [18:31] I dunno, maybe the pox causes packet fragmentation? [18:31] * cjwatson applies antibiotics to his ethernet port [18:32] ubuntustudio alternate posted [18:33] ev: any ETA on a ubiquity fix for Kubuntu? [18:35] ev: my first test gave me the OOM issue again on Kubuntu [18:35] testing again with a console running to get more info [18:35] cjwatson: soonish. I'm assuming we're only respinning for KDE, right? [18:35] Riddell: ouch. [18:36] ev: I think so [18:36] (for the time being) [18:36] well, Ubuntu desktop does need a respin anyway, but I wasn't planning to wait for ubiquity [18:37] can you? Looking at the code, it will break in the GTK frontend if you enter a username with ^[0-9A-Za-z] in it. I'd like to just ressurect the hostname box, reusing the old code making a minor change to make it fit the current flow. [18:37] ev: yes lots of plugininstall.py instances running [18:37] Riddell: ughhhhh [18:38] Riddell: logs please [18:38] * cjwatson has a horrible thought [18:38] forgot to update OFFICIAL to say "Beta" [18:38] you can tell I haven't done this for a while [18:40] at least that doesn't require respinning any livefses [18:40] done, but all images built until now will say "Alpha" instead. I don't plan to respin just for this unless somebody tells me I have to [18:40] I guess the noise it will cause with users is going to be fairly minimal [18:40] ev: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/syslog http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/debug [18:41] I dunno, feel free to suggest I'm wrong, I know we've done differently in the past (but we had fewer images then) [18:41] * Riddell out for an hour [18:42] Ubuntu and Kubuntu desktops need to be respun anyway, and those are the highest-profile ones aside from perhaps Ubuntu server [18:43] We can release note xubuntu, if no other respin is needed [18:49] cjwatson: I don't feel strongly about it, particularly as none of the noise is going to be directed at me... :) [18:49] heh [18:49] wanna bet [18:49] hah :) [18:49] respinning Ubuntu desktop [18:50] TBH I've always found it a little bit bothersome that, in preparation of the milestone, we prepare a series of *candidate* images that all get labeled "Beta" or "RC" [18:50] also have commented out the crontab now that the day's normal ports builds have finished [18:50] well, yeah, have always agreed but never saw an alternative [18:50] smarter on-the-fly ISO editing :-) [18:50] short of sedding the ISO which gives me the shivers [18:50] I said smarter [18:50] ;) [18:50] that was a metasyntactic sed :) [18:51] given that there's code that parses .disk/info ... [19:11] * cjwatson confirms that the mythbuntu desktop images have current mythbuntu-common, and posts [19:20] slangasek: do we customarily post the upgrade tests around this time? [19:20] cjwatson: yes [19:20] what build id do you use? just the current date? [19:21] ev: sorry, I didn't notice your comment above. I can respin Ubuntu desktop again [19:21] cjwatson: okay [19:22] I've committed the hostname fix, just testing now [19:22] then I'll try to reproduce Riddell's scary bug [19:22] err and upload ubiquity, of course [19:26] cjwatson: current date, yes [19:31] Is there a respin planned for Ubuntu-Netbook on Arm? If not, can we get them enabled in iso.qa.ubuntu.com? [19:31] respin planned [19:31] I'm just waiting for unity to publish [19:31] ok. [19:32] I think just about all the candidates are up now except arm and DVDs, and of course the Ubuntu and Kubuntu desktop respins [19:32] (for ubiquity) [19:33] Since there is a respin planned, is there a chance someone can tweak livecd to run /usr/lib/gdm/gdm-set-default-session une-efl prior to building squashfs for armel+dove? Otherwise there is no way to boot past X. [19:33] I had a respin planned but in like ten minutes [19:33] I'm not sure how quick I can get a livecd-rootfs change in [19:34] can you propose a branch of livecd-rootfs for merging anyway, though? [19:34] is this beta-critical? should I be building DVDs first, and waiting for this? [19:34] I wouldn't know where to start. NCommander is planning on doing it, but he's in China on assignment. [19:35] This only affects armel+dove. [19:35] No other platforms would be affected. [19:35] I mean, I can do it, but I'll probably get it slightly wrong [19:35] (or should). [19:36] ok. Not sure how best to proceed then. [19:36] something like http://paste.ubuntu.com/486429/? [19:36] * GrueMaster hates being the only teammate on arm in the PST timezone. [19:37] er, except with chroot $ROOT [19:37] does gdm-set-default-session need $DISPLAY? [19:38] No display needed. Here's what we currently have in jasper for omap images. It is run on first boot. [19:38] if [ -e /root/usr/share/xsessions/une-efl.desktop ] && [ -e /root/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-set-default-session ];then [19:38] chroot /root /usr/lib/gdm/gdm-set-default-session une-efl >>$LOGFILE 2>&1 || true [19:38] fi [19:39] GrueMaster: cjwatson: I'd be glad to do it, but I'm not quite awake enough to trust myself with an editor, and my Dove board is locked at Marvell :-/ [19:40] NCommander: does http://paste.ubuntu.com/486431/ seem plausible? [19:42] * GrueMaster likes line 14 of the patch. :D [19:42] The rest looks plausible to me, but I'm not familiar with the base code. [19:45] committed [19:45] lamont: do the buildds pull from bzr at the moment, or do I need to upload this livecd-rootfs change? [19:46] cjwatson: they dist-upgrade ... livecd-rootfs is the then-current-for-the-distroarchseries each build [19:47] ok, so the only delay is publication [19:47] except that BuildLiveCD.sh is a manual migration from inside the chroot to outside, and should be done via RT [19:47] that's not needed here [19:48] UNE i386 building [19:56] could somebody review livecd-rootfs 1.150 in the queue? (there's also a 1.149 from earlier) [19:58] I guess I'll build some DVDs after UNE i386 [19:58] oh, hell, will need to wait for ubiquity for that anyway, and respin UNE for it [19:58] ev: now blocked [19:59] cjwatson: already uploaded [19:59] haven't got the mail yet though [19:59] ah [19:59] should arrive in a minute or so [20:01] ev: po/Makefile.in seems to keep flipping back and forward between in the package and not in the package [20:01] might benefit from a better clean rule or something [20:01] indeed, will do [20:02] accepted though [20:12] really must make publish-queue faster, by caching or something [20:15] cjwatson: that looks sane, but probably needs a smoke test [20:16] * NCommander was going to implement it as a command line switch ... [20:18] I figure it should behave as we want it to behave by default [20:19] cjwatson: well, if we ever get 3D, although it won't exist until natty at the earlist [20:20] guess we can worry about it then [20:21] cjwatson: indeed. Thanks [20:29] dinnertime; will likely be at least an hour until more spins are usefully possible [20:51] cjwatson: hi! do you have any plans to respin ISOs in the next day? I'm trying to coordinate a security publication. it's currently embargoed, but if you're going to respin, I'd like to get it out asap, otherwise I can wait until maverick is unfrozen. [21:24] kees: planning to respin Ubuntu and Kubuntu desktops shortly, plus all arm and DVDs [21:25] cjwatson: define "shortly" ? [21:25] I suspect I should just probably wait until beta unfreezes. :) [21:25] I thought it would be 10 minutes, but ubiquity needs another hotfix, so a couple of hours [21:26] msg me the details? [21:28] sent [21:37] cjwatson: do you want to hand off any of this to me so you can have an evening? [21:44] not sure yet, K is tired and might go to bed early [21:53] I think I'll want to hand some of it off, just not sure what yet [21:54] ack [21:59] * slangasek wonders who's still passing around bad recommendations about installing the 'grub' package [22:00] the grub/Windows issues I blogged about recently are another source of this [22:00] grub legacy's stage 1.5 is smaller and so less likely to suffer from it, though it does still happen [22:01] (in fact I was thinking of backporting the workaround to legacy once I have it safely sorted out in 2) [22:03] ah [22:03] well whoever is telling people to install grub should tell them how to bloody configure it [22:03] instead of just telling them to install the package, which doesn't help anything [23:04] I've added caching to publish-queue, so it's now MUCH quicker to run [23:05] as in seconds rather than approaching ten minutes [23:10] Nice [23:12] cjwatson: Do you still want the livecd-rootfs changes in? [23:15] yes please [23:16] cjwatson: Done [23:18] thanks [23:21] server installations are failing to boot after installation (reported by marjo); investigating [23:40] thx cjwatson [23:44] I wonder if your netbook is PAE-capable [23:44] I see it in kvm, but kvm has given me grief with PAE in the past