[00:18] <ev> Riddell: not yet, but I think I had the timing slightly off when I tested.  I'll try again in the morning.
[00:38] <cjwatson> ev: bug 627663 is kind of nasty
[00:38] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627663 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity-kde starts partitioning and formatting without verifying (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627663
[00:38] <cjwatson> design issue?
[00:58] <CIA-71> ubiquity: superm1 * r4258 ubiquity/ (bin/ubiquity-dm debian/changelog): When using xfsettingsd, set the background to black first.
[02:19] <Riddell> cjwatson: I thought that was the whole point of this new ubiquity design (bug 627663)
[02:19] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627663 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity-kde starts partitioning and formatting without verifying (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627663
[03:22] <ScottK> superm1: jockey-txt -a worked, so I'll have to investigate further next time I try an install.  Thanks again.
[03:22] <superm1> ScottK, so if that worked, maybe what you should check is before rebooting, was that applied to the current session automagically?
[03:23] <superm1> because it's executed in the live environment, not the chroot
[03:23] <ScottK> Will do.
[03:23] <superm1> and if it worked in the live environment, then the logic that makes it happen during the post install step might be where it's busted
[03:23] <ScottK> Right.
[03:23] <ScottK> I need to nuke my current install and start over once we have a respin, so I'll look then.
[03:45] <CIA-71> ubiquity: superm1 * r4259 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-language.py):
[03:45] <CIA-71> ubiquity: Set release_notes_found to False initially to prevent a scenario it gets
[03:45] <CIA-71> ubiquity: accessed before being set when offline.
[04:03] <ScottK> If it's relevant to determining what process is triggering the oom killer, /bin/sh /lib/partman/commit.d/30parted has the pid immediately before swapoff /dev/sda5 (pretty reliably).
[05:27] <ScottK> ev, Riddell: Not sure if it's good news or badnews, but after the respin with 2.3.12, I don't get the OOM condition anymore using the same options on the same system.
=== ara_ is now known as ara
[08:19] <ev> cjwatson: I'm not convinced on bug 627663.  You have to click through two screens before it does anything.  Perhaps the existing text that says something like, "X additional partitions are not shown.  Use the <link>advanced partitioner</link> to see them", should be changed to "X additional partitions are not shown and will be destroyed..."
[08:19] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627663 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity-kde starts partitioning and formatting without verifying (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627663
[08:19] <ev> good morning, all
[08:20] <ev> ScottK: very interesting
[08:21] <ev> all that changed was fixing a bug on the user setup page that should've just crashed ubiquity (rather than using up all of your memory)
[08:23] <ev> and ugh to IRC bouncers that drop the connection, then discard their buffer before your client automatically reconnects.  ZNC is awful.
[08:29] <superm1> ev, re the whole jockey-text not working, it looks to me like it actually tries, but the postinst fails on the man-db trigger
[08:29] <superm1> which i'd guess is due to ubiquity hogging debconf
[08:30] <ev> superm1: is there a bug for this?  (and dear lord, do you sleep?)
[08:30] <ev> ah, hm, that's a tricky one
[08:30] <superm1> i was just about to hit the hay :)
[08:31] <superm1> i made the mistake of working out way too late, and then i wasn't tired
[08:31] <ev> ah, been there
[08:31] <ev> does jockey actually need to install these packages?
[08:32] <ev> or can we rely on it telling ubiquity what to install later on, as it already does
[08:32] <superm1> during install?  I suppose that depends on whether that wireless widget really needs to be functional that early
[08:32] <superm1> it's probably better to not actually install at that point since moving forward to the next page is then dependent upon waiting for bcmwl to compile potentially
[08:33] <ev> mmm
[08:34] <ev> just thinking through the code on this one
[08:34] <ev> (but do go to bed if you're already off, we can chat about when you get back)
[08:35] <superm1> okay, g'night
[08:35] <ev> night
[08:37] <ev> yeah, now that install.py and plugininstall.py are separate and all network access is done in the latter, which doesn't start until all the pages are finished, we could shove the actual jockey call later in the pages.
[08:37] <ev> Ah, wait no, it would mean no Internet for the timezone page.
[08:37] <ev> Which is fairly important, I think.  The geonames service (which is still being deployed) wont work without it.
[08:39] <ev> I suspect the order is correct, we just need to negotiate how we manage sharing debconf or the work done with debconf (so maybe ubiquity installs the packages for jockey?), and that we ensure that the UI is updated with a spinning cursor and all that jazz.
[08:39] <ev> I'd hope compiling bcmwl doesn't take too long on modern hardware.
[09:13] <ara> morning ev
[09:14] <ara> a couple of ubiquity bugs you might be interested in having a look
[09:14] <ev> hi ara
[09:14] <ev> surely
[09:14] <ara> bug 627899
[09:14] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627899 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Wrong disk size in the partion manager (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627899
[09:14] <ev> currently trying to work through the wubi one
[09:14] <ara> bug 627902
[09:14] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627902 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "The list of available networks is blank (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627902
[09:14] <ara> sure, thanks!
[09:15] <cjwatson> Riddell,ev: right, the bug seemed to be that there was a warning in certain modes which was not present in this one
[09:15] <cjwatson> jockey installing packages> can we set it up to do passthrough?
[09:16] <ev> jockey> oo, that hadn't occurred to me.  Perhaps we can, assuming it doesn't input.
[09:17] <cjwatson> man-db seems to be something of a canary for debconf not being set up quite right
[09:21] <ev> heh, indeed
[09:24] <ev> ara: updated, thanks
[09:25] <ara> ev, thanks
[09:59] <cjwatson> ev: bug 625258 has popped up on the iso-testing list - is it fixable for beta?
[09:59] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 625258 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashed with UnboundLocalError in part_ask_option_changed() (affects: 8) (heat: 40)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/625258
[09:59] <cjwatson> looks like it ought to be reasonably simple
[09:59] <ev> looking into it now
[09:59] <cjwatson> ev: also, is there anything I can help with?
[09:59] <cjwatson> all other things being equal, I was planning on digging out the Windows CD and having a look at Wubi
[10:00] <ev> ah, I was working on that already but help is always welcome
[10:00] <ev> looks like a busted config file
[10:00] <ev> I quickly see comments about fi (I think) being an invalid command fly past before it gets to the grub shell
[10:02] <cjwatson> hm
[10:04] <cjwatson> not seeing anything obviously wrong
[10:04] <ev> me either
[10:04] <ev> and the script checker checks out
[10:05] <cjwatson> mm, well, for whatever that signifies :)
[10:06] <ev> haha, yeah
[10:16] <cjwatson> backing up existing contents of that system, will take a while
[10:17] <ev> I'm sure it will still go faster than my windows VM over NFS over wireless separated by a ceiling and some distance.
[10:18] <cjwatson> wireless here is not exactly stellar
[10:18] <cjwatson> the backup is laptop -> wireless -> ceiling -> wireless -> wired back up to other laptop -> USB disk
[10:19] <ev> haha, impressive
[10:19] <cjwatson> it would probably be faster to find another wire but then I'd have to brave the nest of cables
[10:19] <ev> been there
[10:19] <cjwatson> is bug 627899 a dup of bug 626299?
[10:20] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627899 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Wrong disk size in the partion manager (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627899
[10:20] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 626299 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "During install reports size of new partition as 0.0 B (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/626299
[10:20] <ev> there might be a Virgin employee skeleton or two behind our TV
[10:20]  * ev checks
[10:21] <ev> fixed.  I thought I had seen that before.  I looked when ara pointed me at that bug, but google failed.
[10:22] <ara> ev, I have reported now a bug that prevents installation: bug 627937
[10:22] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627937 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "The installation stalls when copying files (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627937
[10:23] <ara> mmm, coffee is calling
[10:26] <ev> ara: can you give that another try with ubiquity -d, then post new logs?  The problem is not evident from these.
[10:28] <ara> ev, sure, will do
[10:28] <ev> much appreciated
[10:31] <CIA-71> ubiquity: evand * r4260 trunk/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py):
[10:31] <CIA-71> ubiquity: Only set the label on the 'use entire disk' button if we're not
[10:31] <CIA-71> ubiquity: going into the advanced partitioner (LP: #625258).
[10:46] <CIA-71> ubiquity: evand * r4261 trunk/debian/changelog: releasing version 2.3.13
[10:56] <ara> ev, I wasn't able to reproduce it with -d option :(
[10:56] <ev> hm
[11:00] <ara> ev, anyway, I will upload the logs when finished, in case you see something weird there
[11:01] <ara> mmm, it is also stalling now (in another point)
[11:01] <ara> so, yes, I will upload the logs
[11:05] <ev> okay, thanks
[11:15] <ev> cjwatson: http://people.canonical.com/~evand/tmp/wubi-failure.flv - stepping through that with mplayer is probably the easiest viewing experience.  Perplexing stuff.
[11:16] <ev> I've build wubi with set debug=all in the config file here, if it's of help: http://people.canonical.com/~evand/wubi/maverick/wubi-r192-maverick.exe
[11:16] <ev> in a relatively up-to-date maverick chroot
[11:22] <cjwatson> I wonder if this is a change in grub
[11:23] <cjwatson> so, the basic problem is that wubildr.cfg is being parsed using the rescue parser and not the normal parser
[11:24] <Riddell> I'm still getting a million plugininstall.py instances with today's ubiquity
[11:27] <ev> Riddell:  damn, okay.  Can you put up new logs?  Also, can you tell me a bit about what you're doing to trigger this?  Real hardware or VM?  How much memory?
[11:30] <Riddell> i386, real hardware, 512MB memory, yesterday's CD with updated ubiquity
[11:30] <Riddell> will try with today's CD now
[11:33] <cjwatson> ev: could you try http://paste.ubuntu.com/486688/ ?
[11:33] <cjwatson> I've tested it with 'make winboot2 && kvm -kernel build/winboot/wubildr', which at least lets me see it producing rather different error messages
[11:33] <ev> cjwatson: sure
[11:34] <ev> Riddell: can you apply this patch in the livefs and try: http://paste.ubuntu.com/486690/
[11:34] <ev> then post new logs
[11:34] <ev> just a bit of extra instrumentation
[11:35] <Riddell> lots http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubiquity1/
[11:35] <Riddell> logs rather
[11:35] <Riddell> ev: ok will do
[11:39] <cjwatson> dear lazyirc: where oh where has my windows product key gone?  sigh
[11:39] <cjwatson> silly proprietary software
[11:42] <ev> heh
[11:47] <ScottK> ev: Bug 627822 is the one I filed for the jockey issue.
[11:47] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627822 in jockey (Ubuntu) "bcmwl driver not installed during install even when selected (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627822
[11:53] <ara> ev, uploaded the debug syslog to bug 627937
[11:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627937 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "The installation stalls when copying files (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627937
[11:53] <ara> (sorry for the delay)
[11:55] <ev> ara: that seems to be missing /var/log/installer/debug
[11:55] <ev> the tarball just has your syslog
[11:56] <ara> ev, I thought that in debug mode that was enough... OK, never mind, I'll upload it again (as soon as I get those logs again...)
[11:56] <ev> ah, no worries actually
[11:56] <ev> it's the media change bug
[11:56] <ev> (bug 627672)
[11:56] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627672 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "[Maverick Beta] install from USB stuck retrieving files 2/6 Hp Mini (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627672
[11:56] <ev> this was from a USB disk, right?
[11:56] <ara> ev, right
[11:57] <ara> ev, do you want me to mark it as duplicate of that one?
[11:57] <ev> please do
[11:57] <ev> I started digging through apt on that one last night before bed
[11:58] <ev> I'll pick back up momentarily
[11:58] <ev> ara: what did you create the USB disk with?
[11:58] <ara> usb-creator, in my up-to-date maverick laptop
[11:59] <ev> okay
[11:59] <Riddell> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/138PLvjz  what's wrong with that?  two %s, two arguments
[12:00] <ev> ah, whoops
[12:01] <ev> enclose the arguments in a tuple
[12:01] <ev> so...
[12:01] <ev> syslog.syslog('debconffilter_done: %s %s' % (str(dbfilter.status), dbfilter.__module__))
[12:01] <Riddell> ok
[12:01] <ev> sorry about that
[12:01] <ev> thanks
[12:21] <cjwatson> ev: any luck with that wubi patch?
[12:23] <ev> still waiting on it
[12:24] <ev> in retrospect I should've just copied the new wubildr, instead of reinstalling wubi
[12:24] <Riddell> ev: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubiquity2/
[12:27] <ev> Riddell: thanks
[12:30] <ara> ev, I get a crasher in ubiquity after selecting partitions (ubuntu netbook),  is that something you're already working on?
[12:31] <ev> hard to say without seeing the traceback
[12:32] <ara> one sec
[12:34] <ara> ev, something like PageGtk has no attr 'release_notes_found'
[12:34] <ev> ara: superm1 fixed that in the pending ubiquity
[12:35] <ara> can you point me to the bug number, please?
[12:37] <ev> ara: I don't believe there is one, I think he just caught it while testing himself.  Feel free to create one with the logs and I'll link to it in the changelog.
[12:39] <ara> ev, sure, will do, thanks
[12:44] <ara> ev, bug 628011
[12:44] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 628011 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity crashes on Ubuntu Netbook (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/628011
[12:49] <ev> ara: updated, thanks
[12:49] <CIA-71> ubiquity: evand * r4262 trunk/debian/changelog: Add LP reference
[12:50] <ara> ev, thanks to you
[12:54] <ev> cjwatson: confirmed fixed
[12:56] <cjwatson> ev: yay
[12:57] <ev> I'll build and upload a new wubi
[12:57] <ev> thanks a lot!
[12:58] <cjwatson> about to commit it here
[12:58] <ev> ah, go ahead
[12:58] <ev> getting ahead of myself :)
[12:58] <cjwatson> let me just double-check that I'm using the right command to enter normal mode
[12:58] <cjwatson> there are a few subtly different variations
[12:59] <cjwatson> yeah, I am.  good
[13:00] <cjwatson> ev: ok, r193
[13:00] <ev> thanks
[13:04] <cjwatson> can 628011 be marked fix released, since 2.3.13 is in the archive?
[13:05] <ev> right, built, uploaded, and symlink updated.
[13:05] <ev> on it
[13:07] <cjwatson> oh, 2.3.13 isn't in the archive yet, my bad
[13:07] <cjwatson> not sure what happened there, but it's accepted now
[13:09] <cjwatson> anything else I can do?
[13:11] <ev> Riddell: updated patch, if you have a moment to test it: http://paste.ubuntu.com/486726/
[13:12] <cjwatson> exception in traceback processing> !
[13:12] <ev> cjwatson: if you have the spare cycles, any of the ubiquity bugs you deem critical.  I'm working on Riddell's at the moment, and was going to see if I can reproduce the 'replace apt media' bug on the netbook shortly.
[13:13] <ev> cjwatson: yeah, craziness.  If you have any thoughts on that (http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubiquity2/debug, http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubiquity2/syslog), I'm all ears :)
[13:15] <ev> and actually
[13:15] <ev> that's fairly ugly code
[13:15] <ev> I probably should've rewritten that to not read the entire output into memory while I was over there
[13:15] <ev> fixing
[13:16] <ev> oh, nevermind.  I'm misreading.
[13:27] <Riddell> ev: testing
[13:29] <cjwatson> taking bug 627549
[13:29] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627549 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashed in kubuntu oem mode (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627549
[13:32] <ev> thanks
[13:57] <Riddell> ev: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubiquity1/
[14:31] <ev> Riddell: thanks
[15:02] <ev> I'm so far unable to reproduce this 'media change' when installing from USB bug
[15:32] <ev> ah, I wonder if cancel_handler throws us right back into find_next_step.
[15:32] <ev> Riddell: did the finished dialog pop up before this crash occurred?
[15:46] <Riddell> ev: it's not a crash, the machine grinds to a halt
[15:46] <Riddell> and now, over an hour later, there is a finished dialogue
[15:48] <Riddell> it's still got several plugininstaller.py instances running and it's still swapping like mad
[15:50] <ev> okay
[15:56] <ev> yay, I can reproduce it on my netbook!
[15:56] <ev> (in the loosest sense of yay)
[15:56] <ScottK> \o/
[17:03] <ev> I think I fixed it, but I haven't entirely wrapped my head around the problem yet
[17:15] <CIA-71> ubiquity: cjwatson * r4263 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/frontend/kde_ui.py):
[17:15] <CIA-71> ubiquity: * KDE frontend:
[17:15] <CIA-71> ubiquity:  - If the slideshow doesn't exist, hide self.ui.pageMode rather than
[17:15] <CIA-71> ubiquity:  self.page_mode (LP: #627549).
[17:51] <CIA-71> ubiquity: superm1 * r4264 ubiquity/debian/ (changelog control): Provides indicator-renderer (LP: #616165)
[18:13] <ev> cjwatson, superm1: I'm very tied up in this KDE bug (though I think I just found the root of it), I don't suppose either of you have any free cycles to look over bug 627672 , or can reproduce it, as I haven't been able to do so yet.
[18:13] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 627672 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "[Maverick Beta] install from USB stuck retrieving files 2/6 Hp Mini (affects: 2) (dups: 1) (heat: 16)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/627672
[18:15] <cjwatson> I'm about to head out ...
[18:16] <ev> no worries, I'll still get to it when I'm done here
[18:36] <superm1> ev, i haven't been able to reproduce it myself, but i'm also unable to test with web access easily and that might be a key factor here
[18:36] <ev> ah, I've been testing offline.  I'll give web access a go after I'm done here.
[18:38] <superm1> according to manoj's logs, he did have an IP from NM, it would be good to know all the selections he made though in ubiquity
[19:47] <ev> On the KDE bug, debconffilter_done is getting called with ubiquity.components.install as an argument well past it returning 0.
[19:47] <ev> This causes the loop of plugininstall objects, which can be avoided if you wrap the call to find_next_step with a dbfilter.status is not None check, and remove the spurious call to self.app.processEvents (which causes recursive calls to watch_debconf_fd_helper_read -> process_input -> debconffilter_done).
[19:47] <ev> However, I'm still not sure why debconffilter_done with ubiquity.components.install is getting called after plugininstall is already running.  My current theory is that we're not properly tearing things down after each dbfilter finishes, but I'll have to investigate that after I walk the dog as I need an eye break.
[19:47] <ev> I did notice that the KDE frontend seemingly doesn't handle HUP
[19:47] <ev> right, back in a bit
[23:06] <cjwatson> ev: hate to hassle, but any progress?  I don't know what to do about Kubuntu images for tomorrow right now
[23:08] <cjwatson> is the workaround you outline above sufficient for us to get by for beta?
[23:12] <ev> cjwatson: I'm a bit stuck.  I think we need to QSocketNotifier.setEnabled(false) at debconffilter_done, or better handle EBADF
[23:14] <ev> The workarounds I mentioned above will still result in an OSError being raised when process_line is called (again, due to the gone-away fd)
[23:14] <ev> but the install will complete successfully
[23:14] <ev> just with apport dialogs
[23:14] <ev> I presume
[23:16] <ev> QSocketNotifier.setEnabled> The connection between a dbfilter and its socket notifier is not exposed in the current program flow
[23:17] <cjwatson> hm, needing to handle EBADF generally strikes me as a sign of misdesign
[23:17] <cjwatson> but I may be out of line
[23:17] <ev> I equally may be entirely wrong
[23:18] <ev> but ubiquity.components.install is sticking around and its QSocketNotifier is firing seemingly at random, despite having a no longer existent fd.
[23:18] <cjwatson> fiddling with the socket notifiers seems plausible ...
[23:19] <cjwatson> I wonder if you get socket notifier events when the last writer on a read fd closes (e.g.)
[23:19] <cjwatson> seems like the sort of thing you might get a POLLHUP event for, or equivalent
[23:19] <cjwatson> and I guess if the fd has actually been closed then selecting on it is undefined
[23:19] <ev> this is seemingly the disconnect between it and gobject
[23:20] <ev> while gobject has an enum for hup, qt does not
[23:20] <ev> as far as I can tell from http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6/qsocketnotifier.html
[23:20] <ev> I need to step out for about half an hour
[23:20] <ev> do you think it's worth it for me to pull an all nighter on this when I get back?  Or are we already past what's reasonable for beta.
[23:21] <cjwatson> it does seem that maybe the frontend ought to be informed in FilteredCommand.wait
[23:22] <cjwatson> I don't like telling you to pull all-nighters; I'm likely to be up for a while and think that either we fix this or we delay Kubuntu beta, FWIW
[23:23] <ev> okay, I'll be back in 30 and will get back on it then
[23:24] <ev> I've been entirely focused on this, and unfortunately haven't had any time for the USB apt bug, beyond not being able to reproduce it after a number of attempts
[23:24] <ev> cheers
[23:24] <cjwatson> downloading a kubuntu desktop image now just in case
[23:25] <cjwatson> manjo said he just posted debug logs to 627672; I'll see if I can zen anything out of them
[23:28] <cjwatson> ev: reading through this, I think it would be entirely correct for debconffilter_done to detach (even destroy?) the socket notifiers
[23:33]  * cjwatson reads through the Qt signals docs as a refresher
[23:42] <cjwatson> ev: slightly different idea.  In the GTK frontend, the way this works is that watch_debconf_fd_helper returns False, which happens after FilteredCommand.process_input returns False to indicate that it shouldn't be called again
[23:42] <cjwatson> ev: in GTK, returning False from an io_add_watch signal means that the watch is removed from the list of event sources and won't be called again
[23:43] <cjwatson> ev: this doesn't seem so straightforward in Qt, but I think we can achieve a similar effect using something like this (entirely untested, might not be idiomatic, etc.): http://paste.ubuntu.com/486993/
[23:45] <cjwatson> hm, I'm not convinced about the logic for multiple dbfilters in parallel though
[23:49] <cjwatson> ev: maybe http://paste.ubuntu.com/486995/?  self.debconf_fd_counter and self.current_debconf_fd were unused and would have had to be adjusted so I removed them
[23:49] <cjwatson> I'm not familiar with this object.signal[int].connect() notation so I trust that I have got it right with disconnect()
[23:55] <ev> right, back
[23:57] <Riddell> ev: if you do pull an all nighter I'm happy to test at any hours of the day or night for beta
[23:57] <ev> trying that now
[23:57] <ev> Riddell: cool, thanks
[23:57] <Riddell> equally if we don't get kubuntu beta done on time that's life
[23:57] <cjwatson> I don't want us to kill ourselves, but nor do I want to slack