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cjwatsonrobbiew: around?16:02
Keybukhe was just on the phone for me, so he should be soon :)16:03
robbiewdoko is at OpenOffice conference16:04
barryKeybuk: network up and running these days?16:04
robbiewsurbhi is on holiday (but forgot to submit the canonicaladmin request)16:04
robbiewis ev out?16:05
ScottKev is up to his eyballs in ubiquity, I would guess.16:05
Keybukbarry: yup16:05
robbiewheh...hey ev16:06
evhi, sorry I'm late16:06
robbiewno worries16:06
evScottK: indeed :-/16:06
robbiewgiven the release is tomorrow...we can make this fast16:06
* barry has been struggling with intermittent net problems. isp thinks it's my router, but i know better - it's their dns :/16:06
MootBotMeeting started at 10:07. The chair is robbiew.16:07
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:07
robbiewlet's make it official, shall we?16:07
robbiew[TOPIC] Lightning Round16:07
MootBotNew Topic:  Lightning Round16:07
cjwatsondone: continued work on UEFI support, now known to mostly work on some machines modulo the odd partitioning glitch, but still working on getting it to boot on my test laptop :-(; fixed Wubi for beta, I think; semi-release-managing beta, with skaet16:07
cjwatsontodo: get beta out the door; bisect through why EFI test laptop won't boot with repeated kernel builds; resolve partitioning issues on Manoj Iyer's EFI test system;16:07
cjwatson(will give a snap beta update later)16:07
evfire fighting installer bugs.  Was just able to reproduce a big KDE crasher, so digging into that.  Equally trying to find some more time to dig into this apt 'media change' when installing from USB bug.16:09
mvoev: what is the bugnumber for that?16:09
evmvo: bug 62767216:10
ubottuLaunchpad bug 627672 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[Maverick Beta] install from USB stuck retrieving files 2/6 Hp Mini" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/62767216:10
robbiewmvo: you can go next :)16:10
mvolast week:16:10
mvoapt: merges from debian/work with david on 0.8(yeah!); beta: app-install-data/c\16:10
mvoommand-not-found updates; software-center: aptdaemon update/fixes, merges/code \16:10
mvoreview, work on buy-something; update-manager: get rid of extra demoted dialog,\16:10
mvo fixes for beta, setup lucid->lucid-updates test profile on pommerac16:10
mvonext week:16:10
mvowork on buy-something16:10
mvoheh :) that formating does not look quite good16:10
* mvo makes a note to use a gui editor to prepare next time16:10
barryback from vacation so mostly catching up.  worked on pep 3149 (versioned .so files) and tried to push for pronouncement.  worked on bug 620734 (FFe for numpy 1.4) and tried to push for pronouncement.  switched main laptop to maverick.  TODO: objectives, book UDS travel, update blueprints, looking for bugs to fix!, more ftbfs for py27.  (done)16:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 620734 in python-numpy (Ubuntu) "FFe - Sync python-numpy 1:1.4.1-4 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/62073416:11
mvoev: might be a regression from the 0.8 apt update, but iirc that part of the code did not change16:11
barrybtw, i heard only crickets on my post about the FFe for numpy :(16:11
ScottKbarry: Too hard I think.16:12
barryScottK: should i give up on it for mav?16:12
ScottKbarry: That's my recommendation.16:12
* ScottK already cherry picked the shogun fixes to not need dh_numpy.16:12
barryScottK: if you've fixed shogun (the bug impetus) then let's just do it asap for natty, probably same time we flip the switch for py2716:13
* barry will update the bug16:13
ScottKIt'll arrive on the first autosync run.16:13
barryScottK: cool16:13
evmvo: okay, thanks for the heads up16:14
Keybuk- DSL is working again, and is around twice the speed it was before \o/16:14
Keybuk- have been working on methods to readahead filesystem metadata in block order, and methods of reading blocks from files without the current overhead of open() - all have failed :-(16:14
Keybuk- have a working prototype of "Upstart 0.10" that seems to work well, beginning the simple matter or programming soon16:14
mvoev: what do I hve to do to reproduce, just download the candidate usb-image?16:15
robbiew"twice the speed" *\o/* (me with pom-poms)16:15
mvoKeybuk: upstart 0.10 \o/16:15
robbiew[TOPIC] AOB?16:15
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB?16:15
cjwatsonbeta update?16:15
* robbiew truncates Agenda for time16:15
cjwatsonfairly significant number of installer bugs, which ev has been working through.  Wubi was initially toast but should be better now.16:15
cjwatsonSome Eucalyptus trouble, which I think the server team is currently planning to disregard for beta due to time pressure.16:16
cjwatson(so, the usual suspects, then)16:16
cjwatsonUbuntu desktop respun today for installer and Wubi; Xubuntu desktop likewise, in progress; DVDs next.16:16
cjwatsonQuestion mark still over Kubuntu, pending ev et al figuring out why it keeps process-spawning its way out of memory.16:16
cjwatsonUNE is (I think) waiting for a resolution on the media-change issue when installing from USB.16:16
ScottKThanks to ev for all the work on ubiquity-kde.16:16
cjwatsonSo, not brilliant, but I think we should be OK-ish for tomorrow16:16
* robbiew is reminded to request wubi.ubuntu.com (grrr)16:16
robbiewcjwatson: ack, thnx16:16
ScottKcjwatson: Any thoughts on pushing the usb-creator sru to -updates before beta?16:16
robbiewso with all these issues...we should be deferring any remaining feature work that we can16:17
ScottKIt's verified, so it would just take waiving the aging.16:17
cjwatsonScottK: ah yes, you've acked it haven't you?  I'm OK with that, any objections?16:17
ScottKcjwatson: Yes.16:17
robbiewcause we know the tidal wave of bugs is coming after beta16:17
ScottKcjwatson: It's verified by multiple people, so it seems ~safe.16:18
cjwatsonI think so.  I'll waive the aging.16:18
barryrobbiew: +116:18
ScottKBetter that than lots of people enabling proposed and accidentally installing everything from there.16:18
robbiewI suppose I can give my lightning status:16:19
robbiew- found proper daycare for my youngest son so I can have my mornings back \o/16:19
robbiew- finishing up Canonical Foundations engineering candidate interviews16:19
robbiew- training skaet on release management process16:19
* psurbhi is there 16:19
robbiewpsurbhi: ah..hello :)16:19
psurbhihello.. :) was on a holiday last week16:19
mvohey psurbhi16:19
psurbhihello all16:20
robbiewanything for the lightning round?16:20
* psurbhi was configuring mumble and thought no meeting today16:20
* robbiew thought you were out16:20
cjwatsonmvo: can I double-check whether update-manager needs any changes for beta?16:20
cjwatsonthere's an item on BetaProcess that we kind of forgot: "Release minus 3 days: Notify Michael Vogt to have update-manager say that it's a beta release instead of an alpha"16:21
mvocjwatson: no change as such, I uploaded a new version that just changes the text saying "this is a beta release"16:21
cjwatsonyay, perfect then, thanks16:21
mvocjwatson: its in the queue, but once we unfreeze it will be immediately there16:21
cjwatsonok, doesn't need to be on CDs?16:21
mvofor people upgrading from the alternative cd only, but I'm not even sure that we show it then16:22
* mvo needs to double check that16:22
cjwatsonright, that's probably fine then16:22
mvoI think so too16:22
robbiewpsurbhi: do you have any updates?16:23
psurbhi1) was on a holiday last week16:23
psurbhi2) examining how mdadm and initramfs works together. The order in which raid arrays are set up and the role of initramfs.16:23
psurbhiVery slightly getting a hang of it.16:23
psurbhithats it16:24
robbiew[TOPIC] Good News?16:25
MootBotNew Topic:  Good News?16:25
robbiewalways good to end with that ;)16:25
robbiewassuming we have some16:25
KeybukLewis Hamilton is leading the F1 World Championship again?16:25
Keybuk(well I think that's good news :p)16:25
cjwatsonwell, figuring out why wubi was broken was a hell of a relief since I think that's been busted for a while.  sort of good news pending validation ...16:25
barryhappy mailman day?  no that does *not* count16:25
mvowe have software to sell! fluendo-dvd16:26
robbiewcjwatson: sweet!16:26
evboo Hamilton, yay Webber16:26
robbiewmvo: cool....can't wait until we start selling some proper games16:26
mvohow is michael schuchmacher doing these days :P ?16:27
* mvo can't even spell his name16:27
* robbiew has no clue about F1...probably should learn with the track coming to town16:27
Keybukrobbiew: yeah, about that ... do you have a spare room? :p16:27
barrythere's a new grand prix coming to baltimore in 2011.  saw one in halifax years ago.  it was fun16:28
mvorobbiew: I look forward for the games as well, that is going to be a disaster for productivity ;)16:28
cjwatsonfrozen-bubble is bad enough16:28
robbiewright....if you pay for the game, then you *have* to play it...right?16:28
barryrobbiew: my son doesn't necessary agree16:29
robbiewokie dokie....we can probably end this bad boy now16:30
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:30.16:30
robbiewthanks all!16:30
barrythanks robbie16:30
psurbhithanks robbie16:30
mvonext is mumble, right?16:30
ScottKbarry: Please keep me informed about the grand prix.16:30
barrymvo: in 30m16:30
barryScottK: http://baltimoregrandprix.com/16:31
barryScottK: almost exactly 1 year from now16:31
barryScottK: we should make a little bacon pig outing for it16:31
ScottKbarry: I was sort of hoping you'd remind me since I'm all old and stuff.16:31
barryScottK: yes, of course.  i am a spring chicken16:32
cjwatsonoh, also on good news, following my ... interesting disk excitement in Prague, I now have full automatic backups deployed all over the place at long last.  Not that anyone other than me cares. :)16:32
ScottKWe haven't compared birthdays, but you may be younger than me.16:32
barryScottK: let's have a signing party at the next bacon pig and find out :)16:33
ScottKSure thing.16:33
ScottKYou need to get your key signed by more DDs anyway.16:33
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highvoltagehowdy! Anyone present for Edubuntu meeting?20:00
alkisgHi people!20:01
highvoltagehy Alkis!20:01
highvoltageagenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda20:01
highvoltagerelease schedule is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule20:02
highvoltageas you'll note from that wiki page, Beta is tomorrow!20:02
highvoltagebasically, what's new since the last alpha release is a new wallpaper (not the default one though), OEM installer mode, and the inclusion of Gnome Nanny20:03
highvoltageat this point it seems like the final maverick release will definitely not have as much new features as maverick, but at that we can fix in natty (11.04)!20:05
dindahighvoltage: can you give me a quick overview of how a new application might be included in Edubuntu?20:05
highvoltageah, and some of you might have noticed we have a new website (which isn't perfect yet but I'll be working on it)20:06
highvoltagedinda: yep!20:06
dindawebsite is off to a grand start :)20:06
highvoltagedinda: first, it needs to get into the Ubuntu archives, either in main or univeverse.20:06
Lnswow!!! The website looks *awesome* !!20:06
highvoltagedinda: it can get in the archives either by someone (like a MOTU) uploading it to universe, or it can be included in Debian.20:07
highvoltagedinda: in the case of uploading it to Ubuntu, a needs-packaging bug needs to be filed in Launchpad. In Debian you'd fill an ITP (intent to package) bug on their bug tracker20:08
alkisgdinda: what kind of support could canonical offer? A little development maybe?20:08
highvoltageari-tczew: yep, I'd consider REVU the way to get it in via the MOTUs20:08
ari-tczewhighvoltage: yea, I just get on the channel :)20:09
dindaalksig, at this point, unfortunately nothing :(20:09
dindaBUT - if something is in Main, by default Canonical supports it20:09
rockstaralkisg, there are many Canonical folk that are interested in Edubuntu.20:09
dindaso if an app were pushed to Main, it would be part of the support options for end users20:10
alkisgE.g. classrooms/teachers could use a package that simplifies ldap setup20:10
alkisgThere are wiki pages about it, but they need a good technician to implement them20:10
alkisg(who is not available to all schools)20:10
dindaalksig:  yip, lots of people with personal motivations (like me) ogra, lots of others20:10
highvoltagedinda: when it's in the ubuntu archives it's not a big step to get it included, it's usually a good idea to discuss it first on the mailing list or in the channel. if there's some general concensus then we can just include it20:10
highvoltagedinda: keeping in line with Ubuntu, we try not to have more than one program that does the same thing (as in, shipping Abiword, KWord and OpenOffice.org Writer, for example)20:11
highvoltageso sometimes there might be good reasons for not including something20:11
highvoltagethe biggest reasons for not including something is usually licensing problems20:11
highvoltage(am I blabbering too much- and, have I answered your question?)20:11
dindathis is perfect, thanks20:12
highvoltagedinda: what we usually do is discuss the next bunch of stuff we'd like to include at UDS20:12
highvoltagesometimes the work that is needed is just too much or too complicated for us20:12
dindarockstar: is that you making an appearance?20:13
highvoltagean example of this is schooltool. in itself it's not really a problem, but it depends on >100 zope packages that's not in Ubuntu20:13
rockstardinda, I will indeed be at the next UDS.20:13
dindarockstar: \o/  awesome!20:13
highvoltagethere's one guy working hard to get them in, but he missed the deadlines (understandably so) for maverick so we won't be able to include it again20:13
highvoltageMyself and stgraber will also be at UDS. we should have a few good edubuntu/education sessions this time round!20:14
rockstarhighvoltage, I'd be interested to know what Zope packages; a large amount of launchpad uses Zope...20:14
highvoltagerockstar: there's a list somewhere, I'll see if I can find it quickly20:14
dindahighvoltage:  Tom Hoffman did this great video on the new schooltool device, stand alone server for schools20:15
dindaa bit off topic but nice to see that project progressing20:15
dindaso the current list that mhall119 created is awesome, great starting point20:16
highvoltagerockstar: these are some of them: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zope/Maverick and https://code.launchpad.net/~menesis/20:16
highvoltagedinda: I think it's on-topic :) we should probably link to that from our website somewhere20:17
rockstarhighvoltage, I don't think it'd be too difficult to get those in.20:17
highvoltagerockstar: for maverick?20:17
rockstarhighvoltage, no, probably not for maverick, since beta is tomorrow.20:18
highvoltagerockstar: yeah that's where the problem is :)20:18
dindahighvoltage: you mentioned maybe having both Moodle and schooltool in a future release?  maybe something we can write a blueprint for20:18
highvoltagerockstar: menisis sent an email to a few people this morning asking for some help, can I forward that to you? and would you be able to help with it during the natty cycle?20:18
rockstarhighvoltage, sure, I'll do what I can.20:19
highvoltagedinda: indeed! what I'd personally like to see is an Edubuntu server installation, that installs moodle, schooltool, koha and perhaps even some centralised authentication using something like gosa20:19
dindadoes gosa work with openID?20:20
highvoltagethat way you could get a school environment running really fast, cheap and easy (a combination of 3 that's hard to get)20:20
highvoltagedinda: it uses openldap as a backend, so you could integrate it with openid20:20
highvoltage(or at least, become an openid provider)20:21
dindaok, let me start a wiki page for that blueprint while I'm thinking of it20:21
alkisgHow bad it would be to have the edubuntu stable ppa "preinstaled" in an edubuntu installation? That would allow us to put things even after feature freezes/betas etc...20:21
highvoltagedinda: so that would a blueprint for an edubuntu server? or edubuntu-auth?20:22
highvoltagedinda: great20:22
highvoltagealkisg: it would be tricky to do that, because we wouldn't be "Ubuntu" anymore if we didn't build edubuntu from packages entirely from the Ubuntu archives20:23
highvoltagealkisg: and we have edubuntu-dev now, which makes it easy for us to upload to the archives already20:23
alkisghighvoltage: yeah, but that prevents e.g. schooltool from being available when it's ready. It would have to go through an SRU, which isn't always easy, or it would be available on the next release.20:24
highvoltagealkisg: and it wouldn't even be able to get SRU, since SRU is just for packages /already/ in the archives20:25
alkisgEven worse for teachers ;)20:25
* dinda is pleased to see that SchoolTool is the current featured project on Launchpad today - someone is telling us something20:26
highvoltagealkisg: I think we could make big noise about a ppa and what's available in it, but getting it enabled by default is a big, big stretch and unlikely to ever happen20:26
dindaLet me do some digging and see what the release cycle is for schooltool, i can contact Tom H too20:26
highvoltagealkisg: I've been following some discussions on the ubuntu-devel mailing list about app-store like functionality that will be coming to ubuntu at some point in the future. I guess that could perhaps be a good framework to push things that aren't available in the archives20:27
highvoltagedinda: I got your mail this morning about the suggestions for the website, sorry I haven't had a chance to reply yet :)20:28
dindahighvoltage: no worries, no hurry20:28
dindahighvoltage: would be good to have as many keywords, SEO things as we can too20:29
dindahighvoltage: been doing searches on various things around Education/ubuntu and edubuntu and results were not good20:29
highvoltagedinda: yeah, our old website was horrible for that :(20:30
mhall119I'm here, I'm here20:30
highvoltagedinda: I've added google analytics to the site, if you have a gmail account forward me your address and I can add you for stats20:30
highvoltageI guess I can also post some stats to the list now and again20:30
dindahighvoltage: that would be good, maybe part of the monthly report?20:31
alkisgdinda: about the "how many schools are using edubuntu" question that you mentioned in the ML. E.g. here in greece we have a "greek edu apps" ubuntu repository and we can keep track of how many people are downloading those apps from the web server logs (about a terabyte per month). I wonder if the official repositories logs could be used as a measure of how many people are downloading/updating e.g. edubuntu-desktop...20:31
highvoltagedinda: that sounds like a good idea20:31
dindaalksig:  good idea, wonder who i can poke for that info?20:31
alkisgNope, I guess some canonical sysadmin...20:32
highvoltagealkisg: that logs isn't really available20:32
alkisghighvoltage: not even to canonical sysadmins?20:32
highvoltagealkisg: since most of it is downloaded from mirrors they don't have access too, they don't have any access. mirrors aren't required to keep logs like that either20:33
alkisgE.g. popularity contest should also be a measure...20:33
mhall119there's also canonical-census20:33
highvoltageI guess popcon is the best shot, we could encourage users to use it20:33
highvoltagemhall119: canonical-census doesn't send data back about packages that are installed20:33
dindahighvoltage: do you have a link for popcorn?20:34
mhall119true, but I think it sends the distro name20:34
alkisghighvoltage: understood, but still, if there are 10 million estimated ubuntu users, and they're updating ubuntu-desktop N times per day from the main archives, and edubuntu-desktop is updated X times per day, that would give a rough measure of the edubuntu installations around.20:34
alkisg(by just using the main archives numbers)20:34
highvoltagedinda: yep: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Popcorn02.jpg/800px-Popcorn02.jpg20:34
highvoltagedinda: sorry :) here's the link to popcon! http://popcon.ubuntu.com/20:35
highvoltagehmm, oddly enough I can't find a page for popcon on the ubuntu wiki20:37
highvoltagethere must be one somewhere20:37
alkisgubuntu-desktop=1236957, edubuntu-desktop=12809, that would mean roughly 100.000 edubuntu installations...20:38
alkisg(and many schools are also using plain ubuntu, not edubuntu)20:39
mhall119alkisg: how about ubuntu-edu-* counts?20:39
highvoltagealkisg: yep. and some people install it by installing the ubuntu-edu packages20:39
alkisgRight, we'd better measure by some package installed in any edubuntu installation20:39
highvoltageor sometimes they just install some of the edubuntu maintained packages (like gnome nanny, for example)20:39
alkisgAlso, LTSP is very much used in schools, so 1 installation there counts for dozens of clients20:40
* highvoltage was also thinking of that20:41
highvoltageI also know of lots of schools in South Africa that specifically don't enabale popcon or something that uses unnecessary bandwidth because it's so expensive there20:41
dindaso. . .lots and probably more than we'll ever know :)20:41
highvoltagedinda: should we spend some time now on the other questions you added to the agenda?20:42
* alkisg needs to automatically enable popcon in greek school installations ;)20:42
highvoltageI guess 20 minutes isn't enough to give those questions the attention they deserve!20:42
highvoltagealkisg: that would be nice :)20:42
dindayes, just starting the basic dialog of what the community would like to see from Canonical20:42
mhall119printed CDs would be nice20:43
highvoltagedinda: yes, I don't think we'll ever have enough numbers, but if we keep track we might find some interesting results. for example, if we see sharp rise in usage numbers in line with ubuntu for a few releases, and then suddenly a sharp rise or decline in comparison, then we can get an idea of how much our user base is growing and how things are going20:43
mhall119of edubuntu20:43
dindaThere are lots of people in the company who have very high personal interests in Edubuntu/Ubuntu in Education20:43
alkisgIt would be nice to have some canonical developers working on some of the edubuntu packages... I know it's hard, but even a couple of them would make a vast difference.20:43
highvoltagedinda: how can we get those people involved?20:43
dindaso I"m trying to make the case for a dedicated resource like there used to be some 2+ years ago20:44
highvoltagedinda: even if they could just give feedback on what we're doing right or wrong that would already help!20:44
mhall119dinda: I dropped a hint to jono during his videocast today that he needed a horseman for education20:44
dindait's a valuable market, not just for goodwill but seeing lots of adoption among schools and now Higher Ed20:44
dindamhall119: lol - yeah, heard that - awesome!20:44
pleia2dinda: sorry I haven't replied to your email, it's great that you're able to reach out like this :) I still have to visit the rest of the schools in the bay area that are using ubuntu, but it's been very encouraging thus far20:44
highvoltageI spent Sunday to yesterday doing an LTSP deployment for a university in Uganda20:45
highvoltagewas nice getting feedback from them about how nice it's working :)20:45
mhall119dinda: training for the schoolboard IT staff would be a big help I think20:45
dindaI'm going to visit a school here in houston that is all ubuntu and the guy who did all the work is also the Moodle Core Contributor coordinator20:46
mhall119right now the IT departments are against anything new/unfamiliar20:46
highvoltagedinda: now and again we have canonical staff peeking in to our edubuntu meetings and making some comments nad suggestings, even that is already really valuable imho20:46
pleia2mhall119: that's pretty common, we've only been able to get into charter schools (much less red tape than traditional public schools here in the US)20:46
dindawe might better traction from wannabe MOTU types and packaging help from the community20:46
mhall119yeah, I think generally better visibility between edubuntu and canonical staff would be good20:46
dindaif we can maybe partner with the Uw mentoring or other effort, we can place edubuntu packages as ones for folks to look at20:47
mhall119dinda: they put together a nice little black box set for Ubuntu Server/UEC20:47
mhall119something like that for Edubuntu would be awesome20:47
dindaI'm seeing the need for information outlined like this:20:47
dinda1.  End users:  students/teachers/parents20:48
dinda2. Decision makers - CIOs, IT Leaders, School Boards, governement/elected folks20:48
dinda3.  solution providers  oem/odm/ and consulting companies that do business in the market space20:49
dindadoph and of course the whoel developer community :)20:49
mhall119I'd add Implementers: Principals and Sys Admins/Network Admins20:49
dindaI've got the first 3 on my list to try to write content for them20:49
mhall119they're not decision makers, nor end users20:49
highvoltagedinda: I've been meaning to ask Canonical about it, and let me know if you can take this question up or if I should ask someone else,20:50
dindamhall119: so you see them as different from #2?20:50
mhall119but they'll probably be asked about the rollout cost20:50
mhall119dinda: yes, because they often don't have a say in what happens, but do give estimates on the cost and risks20:50
highvoltagedinda: we get questions now and again for commercial support, and Canonical doesn't support Edubuntu officially at this stage20:50
mhall119dinda: and those are the ones that will be the target for training20:50
highvoltagedinda: and the edubuntu project itself also doesn't offer commercial support, but there's lots of other companies out there that do20:51
dindamhall119: ok 4.  Implementors  - could be IT staff or the volunteer wanting to setup an Ltsp lab20:51
mhall119dinda: include the school administrators too, they'll have to oversee it20:51
highvoltagedinda: would we be able to have an Edubuntu market place on the Edubuntu site, similar to what the Ubuntu marketplace used to be like on the Ubuntu site listing people and companies that offer paid for Edubuntu support and solutions?20:51
dindagood question20:51
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highvoltagedinda: it would be great if you could get an answer20:52
dindahighvoltage: I can put that forward, was just looking at the Novell and RH sites to see how they handle the partner/affiliate or non-affiliated support providers20:52
mhall119yeah, and what the requirements would be to get listed20:52
dindaI know the requirements for the ubuntu marketplace used to be pretty low, will have to see if there is a guideline somewhere20:53
dindaofficial commercial support from Canonical is interesting. . .and I've asked about it20:54
highvoltageyes, anyone can be on the Ubuntu marketplace20:54
dindaif it's in main then it's supported by Canonical but. . .20:54
dindauntil someone asks to buy support, then it's not really been tested20:55
mhall119not everything in edubuntu is in main anymore either20:55
highvoltagewell not necessarily20:55
highvoltagejust because /Canonical/ didn't test it doesn't mean that it's untested ;)20:55
mhall119I think the means the support is untested20:55
dindahighvoltage: I meant not testing as in QA but in no one's ever tried to buy Edubuntu support - afaik20:56
highvoltagemhall119: there are *many* companies out there that support packages in universe20:56
mhall119highvoltage: yes, but not canonical20:56
highvoltagedinda: you mean from Canonical, specifically20:57
dindahighvoltage: yes, at this point20:57
ScottKAt one point Edubuntu was supported by Canonical (as in you could buy a support contract)20:57
dindais there a need for Canonical to offer a different Edubuntu support offering?  or even an academically priced ubuntu support offering?20:57
highvoltagedinda: I think that's also kind of understanable, it's not advertised well on the Ubuntu website. Last I looked (a few weeks ago) there was just a vagure reference that there was an "Education Edition"20:58
dindahighvoltage: yes, and that is VERY confusing20:58
dindaI'm trying to get that text fixed20:58
highvoltagedinda: good question!20:58
mhall119dinda: technically I don't think there's a need, but the perception is important20:58
mhall119saying "Canonical offer Edubuntu support" sounds much different than "Canonical supports the packages that are in Edubuntu"20:59
dindahighvoltage: the link to download the Education Edition is really just a link to d/l Ubuntu20:59
highvoltagedinda: the packages available in Edubuntu are a small amount extra to those already in Ubuntu, I don't think it would take much effort or doing anything extra to support it20:59
alkisgOrganizations here would like to hear that it's "officially supported by canonical" even if they didn't buy support until the user base is big enough. It would "silence" some people that say "we don't want to install that because it's not officially supported". I imagine after some years the user base would grow, and organizations would start buying support then...20:59
dindamhall119: agreed and really there aren't alot of packages that would be sucha great burden if they did require some official support20:59
highvoltagedinda: the education upstreams (kde/tux4kids/etc) are doing a pretty good job of things like documenting their own work20:59
mhall119dinda: yeah, most are in main anyway20:59
mhall119dinda: if anything, it could exclude packages that schools/educators aren't likely to need21:00
dindaso it could make a good impact for schools and decision makers21:00
dindahighvoltage: does any of that documentation get pushed into the edubuntu offering?21:01
mhall119the last thing a school wants to do is shift their infrastructure to something new and have no support21:01
highvoltagesounds like it's an issue of validation too to some degree21:01
highvoltagedinda: some of it, yes. I want to get it featured more prominently, I've gone and linked to the upstream websites from our screenshots page so long21:02
dindamhall119: it's actually easier on the infrastructure side (server) than o nthe desktop21:02
mhall119having an LTS release of Edubuntu, once there is official support, would help too21:02
highvoltagedinda: because people don't always know that they exist21:02
mhall119dinda: true, and I kind of meant both21:02
highvoltageimho we weren't ready for LTS the last 2 releases21:02
mhall119well there's not much point in calling it an LTS if there's no official "S"21:03
highvoltagenot because of quality issues or support issues per se, but because things have been changing quite a lot, and we don't want people to use old, outdated stuff21:03
highvoltagefor the next LTS release, it would be nice to have Edubuntu LTS again21:03
highvoltage(that's just my opinion)21:03
alkisghighvoltage++ :)21:04
mhall119but we'll need more than volunteers to backup such a commitment21:04
dindamhall119: agreed21:04
mhall119saying "This is supported for 5 years by people who may disappear tomorrow" doesn't invoke confidence21:04
dindaok, we can continue on mailing list, #edubuntu if others have to run21:04
highvoltagemhall119: there are no such gaurantees in Ubuntu either21:04
mhall119if it's supported by canonical, there's at least the expectation that canonical will be around21:04
dindaoh and I told dgroos I'd ask about perhaps moving the meeting time to evening US??21:05
dindamhall119: I hear you!21:05
highvoltagedinda: we could alternate?21:05
dindamhall119: we're asking folks to turn over their data centers to a small company with only 5 years behind it :)21:06
alkisgWe tried many different hours and this was the one that worked best for people actually attending the meetings... but yeah, alternate schedules could also be good21:06
mhall119dinda: true, but canonical makes money by staying in business, they have incentive21:07
mhall119not so much with volunteers21:07
mhall119not financial incentive anyway21:07
mhall119I'm just playing devil's advocate21:07
* dinda hands mhall119 a whole pile of virtual money and many thanks for his work :)21:07
mhall119*I* believe that volunteers will stick around21:07
highvoltagemhall119: well, if I had to stop my ubuntu support in education I'd be broke!21:08
mhall119highvoltage: not if it was your company's decision to focus on a different product21:08
dindain general we need to do a better job of volunteer recognition21:08
highvoltagemhall119: indeed, but that happens to Canonical as well.21:08
dindalost lots of good contributors b/c they said they felt unappreciated21:08
mhall119dinda: while I agree, i wasn't trying to say that21:08
highvoltagemhall119: in fact, in Edubuntu's case /it did/ happen already21:08
LnsIMHO, What we need is dedicated people already involved in education, and motivated to helping Edubuntu in THEIR schools, to become the volunteers that will stick around for a long time.21:09
mhall119highvoltage: yes, I know21:09
mhall119Lns: yes, that would probably be the ideal21:09
dindaLns: agreed, Education is enough of a reason for many to become contributors21:09
LnsThe sysadmins who take care of edubuntu are the ones most motivated to making it better, not people who might contribute a few patches/etc21:09
mhall119but that would require a lot of training21:09
highvoltagedinda: Canonical treated the Edubuntu contrubitors really horribly at one stage, yes21:09
Lnsmhall119: not really. they can train themselves21:09
alkisgVolunteers can do many things, but it would help a lot if some packages (e.g. the easy ldap installation package I meantioned earlier) were developed by paid developers, and maintained by the community afterwards...21:09
mhall119Lns: in theory yes21:10
highvoltagemhall119: also, people who have pure financial motivation tend to contribute back the least, ime21:10
mhall119but that's not much of a way for us to be promoting it21:10
Lnsall we need is one or two very well placed I.T. folks in schools who know LDAP inside and out to become the maintainers21:10
dindaalksig:  if you or someone can send me a list of such packages I can start to make that case21:10
mhall119highvoltage: I agree21:10
mhall119I'm not saying that *we* should be getting paid for this21:11
Lns(sorry to butt-in so late in the conversation btw)21:11
dindaThe Moodle Core Dev coordinator might have some ideas for me - Moodle only uses 25 total contributors21:11
mhall119I'm saying that schools would feel better about making a committment if they knew they someone had a financial interest in continuing the product21:11
dindayet it's a huge project21:11
alkisgdinda: ok, I'll try to make a list of things/packages were we would appreciate some professional developer help, at least to get them going.21:11
dindathanks alksi21:12
highvoltagemhall119: *nod*21:12
dindaalso, was asked once if conference sponsorships would help?21:12
Lnsmhall119: I think schools would be more apt to start using edubuntu if they knew people in other schools who were using it - in the education world, it's ALL about who you know.21:12
mhall119Lns: maybe, but that's a chicken and egg problem21:12
Lnsmhall119: true ;)21:13
mhall119once Edubuntu is widely used, it will be more widely used21:13
highvoltagedinda: what kind of conference sponsorships? Like Educational conferences?21:13
mhall119educational conferences would be awesome21:13
dindahighvoltage: yes, any place where it would be good to promote Edubuntu/Ubuntu21:13
mhall119there was a huge one in Orlando earlier this year, but it was like $1200 a table21:13
dindaI'm thinking like Educause and other Education conferences21:13
* inetpro listening in21:13
Lnsmhall119: but marketing and exposure of the few schools that DO have it right now are key. We need to spread the word as widely as possible, that's how people get to see it and consider it for themselves21:13
highvoltagedinda: are you familiar with Canonical's support offerings?21:14
dindahighvoltage: somewhat21:14
mhall119Lns: true, but they'll still need help learning what they need to learn before they can implement it themselves21:14
mhall119and it'll take longer if they have to do that all by themselves21:14
dindaLike the one cproffit spoke at;  regional and national technology in education conferences21:14
Lnsmhall119: that's where community support comes in from other schools.21:14
Lnsthere is no "all by themselves" in open source OR education.21:15
mhall119Lns: where I live at least, the decisions are made by the county schoolboard, not individual schools21:15
Lnsvery tight knit communities where everyone loves helping others21:15
highvoltagedinda: ok, perhaps we need to talk more about the specifics, but my clients in South Africa come to me specifically because they can't get the kind of support they need from Canonical. Canonical has very set support products and pricing at the moment, which is quite understanable, but it doesn't work for a lot of people21:15
dindamhall119: that's true for most of the US, except for private and charter schools where they have freedom21:15
mhall119and the schoolboards don't seem to cross paths with other schooboards much21:15
Lnsmhall119: yes that's true in most cases.21:15
highvoltagedinda: I'm trying to keep a very long explanation short here, so please bear with me...21:16
mhall119having an Edubuntu booth at the big educational software expos would be good just to let people know about it, and maybe talk to people who have implemented it21:16
dindahighvoltage: yes, right now pricing is mostly for Tier 1 countries, not developing countries21:16
highvoltagedinda: well, the same applies to clients I work with in Canada and the US :)21:17
* dinda adds Academic pricing to the list of things to push up :)21:17
mhall119dinda: could Canonical offer an Edubuntu support offering that only covered a subset of packages?  this rather than a superset of what is already supported?21:18
Lnswhat we're talking about isn't 'edubuntu' specific - it's about promoting open source projects in general21:18
Lnswe could probably learn a lot from what the mozilla / OOo people have done to promote their "products"21:18
highvoltagedinda: something that could perhaps work (I haven't put too much thought in it yet), would be some kind of official training from canonical that can show that a company has the skills it needs to provide edubuntu support21:18
highvoltagedinda: it's not just a pricing issue though21:18
mhall119highvoltage: is there any reason we couldn't put together such a training/testing package?21:19
mhall119I know the edubuntu/canonical relationships is kind of fuzzy at the edges21:19
dindaI can do the standard Edubuntu desktop training on my own as a community member - already started it21:19
highvoltagedinda: there are some issues that Canonical couldn't decide on before, like, "is an ltsp server a server or a desktop?" and "would the workstations count as one system, or many in terms of pricing", and while they decide the clients walk away21:19
dindabut the sys admin and up level gets trickier21:19
highvoltagemhall119: I don't think there's anything stopping us from doing it, I was thinking of even doing it myself (with help from others of course) some time during next year21:20
dindahighvoltage: I think they (canonical) is a in a better place to start addressing those questions now21:20
mhall119highvoltage: okay, I wasn't sure what we could call "official" with Edubuntu having a special place in Canonical's trademark policy21:21
highvoltagea previous colleague of mine wanted to start something like an Edubuntu Academy, a place where companies could send their staff to and they'd get training on how to use Ubuntu/Edubuntu in schools21:21
highvoltageI've had a few people contact me over the last year asking for such training, but I haven't been in a position to provide it due to time constraints21:21
dindaso this is all good stuff, now I just need to get it better organized so I can start making the case for it21:21
highvoltagedinda: *nod* I agree. Canonical has gotten a lot better with that21:22
mhall119dinda: can you check on the trademark question if we were to offer paid support or training?21:22
mhall119"we" being the community21:22
highvoltagemhall119: we can21:22
mhall119highvoltage: have you checked?21:22
highvoltagemhall119: the trademark policy is on the website. we can offer Edubuntu services, we can't call a company we own Edubuntu though or call our product "Edubuntu"21:23
dindai'm confused o nthe use of the word 'official' myself like all the docs are considered official21:23
mhall119so "Edubuntu Academy" would be out21:23
highvoltagemhall119: basically, yes, but we could get permission for that, or even partner up for that21:24
dindaso what's to stop to a community group from saying they've developed 'official' training materials, CC-By-SA?21:24
mhall119it would be nice it there was a non-profit Edubuntu Foundation for that21:24
mhall119dinda: trademark21:25
mhall119"official" implies endorsement21:25
mhall119or affiliation21:25
highvoltagedinda: indeed, there's a few "officials" here. there's what's supported by Canonical officially, there's official packages from the Edubuntu project in the Ubuntu archives, there's official packages from the Edubuntu community in the stable PPA, sometimes there's some confusion and blurring when people talk about official21:26
mhall119and if non such exists, it's a trademark violation21:26
mhall119at least, that's my understanding21:26
dindai'm still confused but that's just me21:27
mhall119if it made easy sense, lawyers wouldn't get so much money21:28
highvoltagedinda: please talk about it, I'd like to know what the confusing parts are21:28
highvoltagetrademarks aren't /that/ complicated, really21:28
dindawell don't understand who gives the 'official' endorsement?  The CC or someone in Canonical?21:28
dindaTech board for packages?21:28
dindai can understand if there is a competing commercial interest. . .21:29
dindabut in the case of Edubuntu training, it's not something canonical has any plans to do - afaik21:30
highvoltageyes those are seperate issues21:30
highvoltageas far as packages, etc go, we're about as official as we need to be21:30
mhall119dinda: it's more a matter of customer perception21:30
highvoltageI think mhall119 was talking about support and the commercial side more specifically21:30
mhall119we can't make people think that what we're offing is coming from or supported by Canonical unless it is21:31
mhall119since Canonical owns the trademark on Edubuntu, claiming anything as the "official Edubuntu $foo" implies canonical's approval21:31
highvoltagemhall119: I also don't necessarilly see it as a problem if Canonical doesn't want to support it. there should just be good and obvious ways for others to do it then21:31
highvoltagemhall119: again, not really21:32
mhall119highvoltage: just my understanding of trademark law21:32
mhall119I know Fluxbuntu had to change their name because of it21:32
highvoltagemhall119: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy21:33
mhall119highvoltage: if we sold training or certification, it would fall under the "Any Commercial use" exclusion21:34
dindaI guess all the derivatives have a similar issue:  Kubuntu, Xubuntu, while Kubuntu is considered an official derivative, there is no support you can buy for it from canonical21:34
highvoltagemhall119: no, you could do training21:34
mhall119also "Use in combination with any product or service which is presented as being Certified or Official or formally associated with us or our products or services."21:35
mhall119is excluded21:35
highvoltagemhall119: certification is another story. Canonical can't stop you legally from selling Edubuntu support or training, and saying that it is21:35
mhall119highvoltage: true21:35
mhall119but that isn't the kind of support and training I was hoping to have to offer to schools21:36
mhall119and we certainly couldn't call it "official Edubuntu training"21:36
mhall119just "Edubuntu training"21:36
mhall119if even then21:36
mhall119maybe it would have to be "Training on the use of Edubuntu"21:36
dindalike many Loco teams do with Ubuntu training21:36
highvoltagemhall119: If I understand you correctly, what you're after, basically, is a rubberstamping from Canonical that you're legit and are allowed to do the training, etc you want to provide?21:36
mhall119highvoltage: yes21:37
highvoltagemhall119: personally, I'm not that hung up on having "officially" pasted everywhere.21:37
mhall119so we don't have to throw in a bunch of disclaimers when we talk about it21:37
dindamhall119: ah yes, in that case they would stop you21:37
highvoltagemhall119: I think if you put something good together, Canonical would do that, I think we're making a bigger issue out of this than it is21:37
mhall119highvoltage: I'm sure they would, I just wanted to get clarification21:38
highvoltageI can't see why Canonical would be against something that would ultimately promote their line of products and expand their potential markets. Sure there's a trademark. I don't think it's hard to get around by just talking to Canonical. big deal.21:38
highvoltagemhall119: so, if it's not clear, you can give something called "Edubuntu training", but not "official Edubuntu training" unless you have permission from Canonical to do so21:39
mhall119highvoltage: with trademark law, if you knowing allow the unlicensed use of a trademark, it becomes harder to enforce it21:40
highvoltageI think having a single "official training" would be a bad idea. having different courses or types of training that is approved by Canonical sounds more useful21:40
mhall119so even if Canonical liked it, it would have to be licensed or not allowed, otherwise it could harm them21:40
mhall119going back to Fluxbuntu, i'm sure canonical liked it, but they couldn't let their trademark be used like that21:41
highvoltagemhall119: yes, what I'm saying is that if it's in their best interest, then it's very likely that you'll get the permission that you need. I didn't suggest unauthorized use.21:41
mhall119highvoltage: okay, on that we agree21:41
mhall119as long as we get permission and don't assume it21:42
mhall119sorry, but I've got to head home now21:43
highvoltagemhall119: it was the responsibility of fluxbuntu to clear that out with canonical before naming their product(s), so I don't see how that's relevant21:43
mhall119highvoltage: if we start offering training we'd need to do the same21:43
mhall119before we use "Edubuntu" in the name21:43
mhall119is all I'm saying21:43
highvoltagemhall119: yes. it's no big deal.21:43
mhall119gotta run now, ping me in #edubuntu if there's anything more I need to be aware of21:44
highvoltageok. this meeting is already 45 minutes over already :)21:45
mhall119just a tad late21:45
highvoltagedinda: sorry if things sounded a bit heated21:45
dindanot at all, good discussion21:45
* mhall119 is heated, the A/C at my office is broken :(21:45
dindahelps me try to get my head around all the issues21:45
* inetpro enjoyed the interesting discussion21:45
mhall119dinda: out of curiousity, who are you reporting all this to inside Canonical?21:45
highvoltagedinda: mhall119's issue is actually quite common around providers who want to provide high-quality services. so that is indeed something to think about imho21:46
dindai'm in the OEM department, where the previous Education Manager used to be housed21:46
dindabut I'm just in the reporting/drafting stages of recommendations so we'll see how it goes21:47
dindaat least management seems to be interested in anything Education again so that is good first step :)  I hope!21:48
highvoltagedinda: well, I've always appreciated the bridging that you've done between Canonical and Edubuntu, if it wasn't for you, no one else would probably have been doing it21:51
dindahighvoltage: I'm trying :)21:51
dindaI'll be around #edubuntu later if anyone has other questions21:51
dindaand please email the list or me if anyone has suggestions, discussion points21:52
* highvoltage too21:53
alkisgThanks all21:54
dindathanks everyone!21:55
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha

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