[16:01] <mvo> hello
[16:01] <barry> hi
[16:02] <cjwatson> afternoon
[16:02] <cjwatson> robbiew: around?
[16:03] <robbiew> ack
[16:03] <Keybuk> he was just on the phone for me, so he should be soon :)
[16:04] <robbiew> doko is at OpenOffice conference
[16:04] <barry> Keybuk: network up and running these days?
[16:04] <robbiew> surbhi is on holiday (but forgot to submit the canonicaladmin request)
[16:05] <robbiew> is ev out?
[16:05] <ScottK> ev is up to his eyballs in ubiquity, I would guess.
[16:05] <Keybuk> barry: yup
[16:06] <robbiew> heh...hey ev
[16:06] <ev> hi, sorry I'm late
[16:06] <robbiew> no worries
[16:06] <ev> ScottK: indeed :-/
[16:06] <robbiew> given the release is tomorrow...we can make this fast
[16:06]  * barry has been struggling with intermittent net problems.  isp thinks it's my router, but i know better - it's their dns :/
[16:07] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[16:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:07. The chair is robbiew.
[16:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:07] <robbiew> let's make it official, shall we?
[16:07] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
[16:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
[16:07] <robbiew> cjwatson?
[16:07] <cjwatson> done: continued work on UEFI support, now known to mostly work on some machines modulo the odd partitioning glitch, but still working on getting it to boot on my test laptop :-(; fixed Wubi for beta, I think; semi-release-managing beta, with skaet
[16:07] <cjwatson> todo: get beta out the door; bisect through why EFI test laptop won't boot with repeated kernel builds; resolve partitioning issues on Manoj Iyer's EFI test system;
[16:07] <cjwatson> (will give a snap beta update later)
[16:08] <robbiew> thnx
[16:08] <robbiew> ev?
[16:09] <ev> fire fighting installer bugs.  Was just able to reproduce a big KDE crasher, so digging into that.  Equally trying to find some more time to dig into this apt 'media change' when installing from USB bug.
[16:09] <ev> (done)
[16:09] <mvo> ev: what is the bugnumber for that?
[16:10] <ev> mvo: bug 627672
[16:10] <robbiew> mvo: you can go next :)
[16:10] <mvo> last week:
[16:10] <mvo> apt: merges from debian/work with david on 0.8(yeah!); beta: app-install-data/c\
[16:10] <mvo> ommand-not-found updates; software-center: aptdaemon update/fixes, merges/code \
[16:10] <mvo> review, work on buy-something; update-manager: get rid of extra demoted dialog,\
[16:10] <mvo>  fixes for beta, setup lucid->lucid-updates test profile on pommerac
[16:10] <mvo> next week:
[16:10] <mvo> work on buy-something
[16:10] <mvo> (done)
[16:10] <mvo> heh :) that formating does not look quite good
[16:10]  * mvo makes a note to use a gui editor to prepare next time
[16:11] <robbiew> heh...thnx
[16:11] <robbiew> barry?
[16:11] <barry> back from vacation so mostly catching up.  worked on pep 3149 (versioned .so files) and tried to push for pronouncement.  worked on bug 620734 (FFe for numpy 1.4) and tried to push for pronouncement.  switched main laptop to maverick.  TODO: objectives, book UDS travel, update blueprints, looking for bugs to fix!, more ftbfs for py27.  (done)
[16:11] <mvo> ev: might be a regression from the 0.8 apt update, but iirc that part of the code did not change
[16:11] <barry> btw, i heard only crickets on my post about the FFe for numpy :(
[16:12] <ScottK> barry: Too hard I think.
[16:12] <barry> ScottK: should i give up on it for mav?
[16:12] <ScottK> barry: That's my recommendation.
[16:12]  * ScottK already cherry picked the shogun fixes to not need dh_numpy.
[16:13] <barry> ScottK: if you've fixed shogun (the bug impetus) then let's just do it asap for natty, probably same time we flip the switch for py27
[16:13]  * barry will update the bug
[16:13] <ScottK> It'll arrive on the first autosync run.
[16:13] <barry> ScottK: cool
[16:14] <ev> mvo: okay, thanks for the heads up
[16:14] <robbiew> Keybuk?
[16:14] <Keybuk> - DSL is working again, and is around twice the speed it was before \o/
[16:14] <Keybuk> - have been working on methods to readahead filesystem metadata in block order, and methods of reading blocks from files without the current overhead of open() - all have failed :-(
[16:14] <Keybuk> - have a working prototype of "Upstart 0.10" that seems to work well, beginning the simple matter or programming soon
[16:14] <Keybuk> --
[16:15] <mvo> ev: what do I hve to do to reproduce, just download the candidate usb-image?
[16:15] <robbiew> "twice the speed" *\o/* (me with pom-poms)
[16:15] <mvo> Keybuk: upstart 0.10 \o/
[16:15] <robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB?
[16:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB?
[16:15] <cjwatson> beta update?
[16:15]  * robbiew truncates Agenda for time
[16:15] <robbiew> sure
[16:15] <cjwatson> fairly significant number of installer bugs, which ev has been working through.  Wubi was initially toast but should be better now.
[16:16] <cjwatson> Some Eucalyptus trouble, which I think the server team is currently planning to disregard for beta due to time pressure.
[16:16] <cjwatson> (so, the usual suspects, then)
[16:16] <cjwatson> Ubuntu desktop respun today for installer and Wubi; Xubuntu desktop likewise, in progress; DVDs next.
[16:16] <cjwatson> Question mark still over Kubuntu, pending ev et al figuring out why it keeps process-spawning its way out of memory.
[16:16] <cjwatson> UNE is (I think) waiting for a resolution on the media-change issue when installing from USB.
[16:16] <ScottK> Thanks to ev for all the work on ubiquity-kde.
[16:16] <cjwatson> So, not brilliant, but I think we should be OK-ish for tomorrow
[16:16]  * robbiew is reminded to request wubi.ubuntu.com (grrr)
[16:16] <robbiew> cjwatson: ack, thnx
[16:16] <ScottK> cjwatson: Any thoughts on pushing the usb-creator sru to -updates before beta?
[16:17] <robbiew> so with all these issues...we should be deferring any remaining feature work that we can
[16:17] <ScottK> It's verified, so it would just take waiving the aging.
[16:17] <cjwatson> ScottK: ah yes, you've acked it haven't you?  I'm OK with that, any objections?
[16:17] <ScottK> cjwatson: Yes.
[16:17] <robbiew> cause we know the tidal wave of bugs is coming after beta
[16:18] <ScottK> cjwatson: It's verified by multiple people, so it seems ~safe.
[16:18] <cjwatson> I think so.  I'll waive the aging.
[16:18] <barry> robbiew: +1
[16:18] <ScottK> Better that than lots of people enabling proposed and accidentally installing everything from there.
[16:19] <robbiew> I suppose I can give my lightning status:
[16:19] <robbiew> - found proper daycare for my youngest son so I can have my mornings back \o/
[16:19] <robbiew> - finishing up Canonical Foundations engineering candidate interviews
[16:19] <robbiew> - training skaet on release management process
[16:19] <cjwatson> done
[16:19]  * psurbhi is there 
[16:19] <robbiew> psurbhi: ah..hello :)
[16:19] <psurbhi> hello.. :) was on a holiday last week
[16:19] <mvo> hey psurbhi
[16:20] <ev> hiya
[16:20] <psurbhi> o/
[16:20] <psurbhi> hello all
[16:20] <robbiew> anything for the lightning round?
[16:20]  * psurbhi was configuring mumble and thought no meeting today
[16:20] <robbiew> heh
[16:20]  * robbiew thought you were out
[16:20] <cjwatson> mvo: can I double-check whether update-manager needs any changes for beta?
[16:20] <psurbhi> heh
[16:21] <cjwatson> there's an item on BetaProcess that we kind of forgot: "Release minus 3 days: Notify Michael Vogt to have update-manager say that it's a beta release instead of an alpha"
[16:21] <mvo> cjwatson: no change as such, I uploaded a new version that just changes the text saying "this is a beta release"
[16:21] <cjwatson> yay, perfect then, thanks
[16:21] <mvo> cjwatson: its in the queue, but once we unfreeze it will be immediately there
[16:21] <cjwatson> ok, doesn't need to be on CDs?
[16:22] <mvo> for people upgrading from the alternative cd only, but I'm not even sure that we show it then
[16:22]  * mvo needs to double check that
[16:22] <cjwatson> right, that's probably fine then
[16:22] <mvo> I think so too
[16:23] <robbiew> psurbhi: do you have any updates?
[16:23] <psurbhi> 1) was on a holiday last week
[16:23] <psurbhi> 2) examining how mdadm and initramfs works together. The order in which raid arrays are set up and the role of initramfs.
[16:23] <psurbhi> Very slightly getting a hang of it.
[16:24] <psurbhi> thats it
[16:24] <psurbhi> ..
[16:24] <robbiew> thnx
[16:25] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News?
[16:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Good News?
[16:25] <robbiew> always good to end with that ;)
[16:25] <robbiew> assuming we have some
[16:25] <robbiew> lol
[16:25] <Keybuk> Lewis Hamilton is leading the F1 World Championship again?
[16:25] <Keybuk> (well I think that's good news :p)
[16:25] <cjwatson> well, figuring out why wubi was broken was a hell of a relief since I think that's been busted for a while.  sort of good news pending validation ...
[16:25] <barry> happy mailman day?  no that does *not* count
[16:26] <mvo> we have software to sell! fluendo-dvd
[16:26] <barry> nice!
[16:26] <robbiew> cjwatson: sweet!
[16:26] <ev> boo Hamilton, yay Webber
[16:26] <mvo> lol
[16:26] <robbiew> mvo: cool....can't wait until we start selling some proper games
[16:26] <robbiew> :)
[16:27] <mvo> how is michael schuchmacher doing these days :P ?
[16:27] <ev> hahaha
[16:27]  * mvo can't even spell his name
[16:27]  * robbiew has no clue about F1...probably should learn with the track coming to town
[16:27] <Keybuk> robbiew: yeah, about that ... do you have a spare room? :p
[16:27] <ev> lol
[16:27] <robbiew> heh
[16:27] <mvo> *lol*
[16:28] <barry> there's a new grand prix coming to baltimore in 2011.  saw one in halifax years ago.  it was fun
[16:28] <mvo> robbiew: I look forward for the games as well, that is going to be a disaster for productivity ;)
[16:28] <robbiew> heh
[16:28] <cjwatson> frozen-bubble is bad enough
[16:28] <robbiew> lol
[16:28] <robbiew> right....if you pay for the game, then you *have* to play it...right?
[16:29] <barry> robbiew: my son doesn't necessary agree
[16:30] <robbiew> okie dokie....we can probably end this bad boy now
[16:30] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[16:30] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:30.
[16:30] <robbiew> thanks all!
[16:30] <mvo> thanks
[16:30] <barry> thanks robbie
[16:30] <psurbhi> thanks robbie
[16:30] <mvo> next is mumble, right?
[16:30] <ScottK> barry: Please keep me informed about the grand prix.
[16:30] <barry> mvo: in 30m
[16:31] <barry> ScottK: http://baltimoregrandprix.com/
[16:31] <barry> ScottK: almost exactly 1 year from now
[16:31] <barry> ScottK: we should make a little bacon pig outing for it
[16:31] <ScottK> barry: I was sort of hoping you'd remind me since I'm all old and stuff.
[16:32] <barry> ScottK: yes, of course.  i am a spring chicken
[16:32] <cjwatson> oh, also on good news, following my ... interesting disk excitement in Prague, I now have full automatic backups deployed all over the place at long last.  Not that anyone other than me cares. :)
[16:32] <ScottK> We haven't compared birthdays, but you may be younger than me.
[16:33] <barry> ScottK: let's have a signing party at the next bacon pig and find out :)
[16:33] <ScottK> Sure thing.
[16:33] <ScottK> You need to get your key signed by more DDs anyway.
[16:33] <barry> +1
[20:00] <highvoltage> howdy! Anyone present for Edubuntu meeting?
[20:01] <alkisg> o/
[20:01] <alkisg> Hi people!
[20:01] <highvoltage> hy Alkis!
[20:01] <highvoltage> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
[20:02] <dinda> present!
[20:02] <highvoltage> release schedule is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule
[20:02] <highvoltage> as you'll note from that wiki page, Beta is tomorrow!
[20:03] <highvoltage> basically, what's new since the last alpha release is a new wallpaper (not the default one though), OEM installer mode, and the inclusion of Gnome Nanny
[20:05] <highvoltage> at this point it seems like the final maverick release will definitely not have as much new features as maverick, but at that we can fix in natty (11.04)!
[20:05] <dinda> highvoltage: can you give me a quick overview of how a new application might be included in Edubuntu?
[20:06] <highvoltage> ah, and some of you might have noticed we have a new website (which isn't perfect yet but I'll be working on it)
[20:06] <highvoltage> dinda: yep!
[20:06] <dinda> website is off to a grand start :)
[20:06] <highvoltage> dinda: first, it needs to get into the Ubuntu archives, either in main or univeverse.
[20:06] <Lns> wow!!! The website looks *awesome* !!
[20:07] <highvoltage> dinda: it can get in the archives either by someone (like a MOTU) uploading it to universe, or it can be included in Debian.
[20:07] <ari-tczew> REVU?
[20:08] <highvoltage> dinda: in the case of uploading it to Ubuntu, a needs-packaging bug needs to be filed in Launchpad. In Debian you'd fill an ITP (intent to package) bug on their bug tracker
[20:08] <alkisg> dinda: what kind of support could canonical offer? A little development maybe?
[20:08] <highvoltage> ari-tczew: yep, I'd consider REVU the way to get it in via the MOTUs
[20:09] <ari-tczew> highvoltage: yea, I just get on the channel :)
[20:09] <dinda> alksig, at this point, unfortunately nothing :(
[20:09] <dinda> BUT - if something is in Main, by default Canonical supports it
[20:09] <rockstar> alkisg, there are many Canonical folk that are interested in Edubuntu.
[20:10] <dinda> so if an app were pushed to Main, it would be part of the support options for end users
[20:10] <alkisg> E.g. classrooms/teachers could use a package that simplifies ldap setup
[20:10] <alkisg> There are wiki pages about it, but they need a good technician to implement them
[20:10] <alkisg> (who is not available to all schools)
[20:10] <dinda> alksig:  yip, lots of people with personal motivations (like me) ogra, lots of others
[20:10] <highvoltage> dinda: when it's in the ubuntu archives it's not a big step to get it included, it's usually a good idea to discuss it first on the mailing list or in the channel. if there's some general concensus then we can just include it
[20:11] <highvoltage> dinda: keeping in line with Ubuntu, we try not to have more than one program that does the same thing (as in, shipping Abiword, KWord and OpenOffice.org Writer, for example)
[20:11] <highvoltage> so sometimes there might be good reasons for not including something
[20:11] <highvoltage> the biggest reasons for not including something is usually licensing problems
[20:11] <highvoltage> (am I blabbering too much- and, have I answered your question?)
[20:12] <dinda> this is perfect, thanks
[20:12] <highvoltage> dinda: what we usually do is discuss the next bunch of stuff we'd like to include at UDS
[20:12] <highvoltage> sometimes the work that is needed is just too much or too complicated for us
[20:13] <dinda> rockstar: is that you making an appearance?
[20:13] <highvoltage> an example of this is schooltool. in itself it's not really a problem, but it depends on >100 zope packages that's not in Ubuntu
[20:13] <rockstar> dinda, I will indeed be at the next UDS.
[20:13] <dinda> rockstar: \o/  awesome!
[20:13] <highvoltage> there's one guy working hard to get them in, but he missed the deadlines (understandably so) for maverick so we won't be able to include it again
[20:14] <highvoltage> Myself and stgraber will also be at UDS. we should have a few good edubuntu/education sessions this time round!
[20:14] <rockstar> highvoltage, I'd be interested to know what Zope packages; a large amount of launchpad uses Zope...
[20:14] <highvoltage> rockstar: there's a list somewhere, I'll see if I can find it quickly
[20:15] <dinda> highvoltage:  Tom Hoffman did this great video on the new schooltool device, stand alone server for schools
[20:15] <dinda> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/08/schooltool_connects_schools.html
[20:15] <dinda> a bit off topic but nice to see that project progressing
[20:16] <dinda> so the current list that mhall119 created is awesome, great starting point
[20:16] <highvoltage> rockstar: these are some of them: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zope/Maverick and https://code.launchpad.net/~menesis/
[20:17] <highvoltage> dinda: I think it's on-topic :) we should probably link to that from our website somewhere
[20:17] <rockstar> highvoltage, I don't think it'd be too difficult to get those in.
[20:17] <highvoltage> rockstar: for maverick?
[20:18] <rockstar> highvoltage, no, probably not for maverick, since beta is tomorrow.
[20:18] <highvoltage> rockstar: yeah that's where the problem is :)
[20:18] <dinda> highvoltage: you mentioned maybe having both Moodle and schooltool in a future release?  maybe something we can write a blueprint for
[20:18] <highvoltage> rockstar: menisis sent an email to a few people this morning asking for some help, can I forward that to you? and would you be able to help with it during the natty cycle?
[20:19] <rockstar> highvoltage, sure, I'll do what I can.
[20:19] <highvoltage> dinda: indeed! what I'd personally like to see is an Edubuntu server installation, that installs moodle, schooltool, koha and perhaps even some centralised authentication using something like gosa
[20:20] <dinda> does gosa work with openID?
[20:20] <highvoltage> that way you could get a school environment running really fast, cheap and easy (a combination of 3 that's hard to get)
[20:20] <highvoltage> dinda: it uses openldap as a backend, so you could integrate it with openid
[20:21] <highvoltage> (or at least, become an openid provider)
[20:21] <dinda> ok, let me start a wiki page for that blueprint while I'm thinking of it
[20:21] <alkisg> How bad it would be to have the edubuntu stable ppa "preinstaled" in an edubuntu installation? That would allow us to put things even after feature freezes/betas etc...
[20:22] <highvoltage> dinda: so that would a blueprint for an edubuntu server? or edubuntu-auth?
[20:22] <dinda> server
[20:22] <highvoltage> dinda: great
[20:23] <highvoltage> alkisg: it would be tricky to do that, because we wouldn't be "Ubuntu" anymore if we didn't build edubuntu from packages entirely from the Ubuntu archives
[20:23] <highvoltage> alkisg: and we have edubuntu-dev now, which makes it easy for us to upload to the archives already
[20:24] <alkisg> highvoltage: yeah, but that prevents e.g. schooltool from being available when it's ready. It would have to go through an SRU, which isn't always easy, or it would be available on the next release.
[20:25] <highvoltage> alkisg: and it wouldn't even be able to get SRU, since SRU is just for packages /already/ in the archives
[20:25] <alkisg> Even worse for teachers ;)
[20:26]  * dinda is pleased to see that SchoolTool is the current featured project on Launchpad today - someone is telling us something
[20:26] <highvoltage> alkisg: I think we could make big noise about a ppa and what's available in it, but getting it enabled by default is a big, big stretch and unlikely to ever happen
[20:26] <dinda> Let me do some digging and see what the release cycle is for schooltool, i can contact Tom H too
[20:27] <highvoltage> alkisg: I've been following some discussions on the ubuntu-devel mailing list about app-store like functionality that will be coming to ubuntu at some point in the future. I guess that could perhaps be a good framework to push things that aren't available in the archives
[20:28] <highvoltage> dinda: I got your mail this morning about the suggestions for the website, sorry I haven't had a chance to reply yet :)
[20:28] <dinda> highvoltage: no worries, no hurry
[20:29] <dinda> highvoltage: would be good to have as many keywords, SEO things as we can too
[20:29] <dinda> highvoltage: been doing searches on various things around Education/ubuntu and edubuntu and results were not good
[20:30] <highvoltage> dinda: yeah, our old website was horrible for that :(
[20:30] <mhall119> I'm here, I'm here
[20:30] <highvoltage> dinda: I've added google analytics to the site, if you have a gmail account forward me your address and I can add you for stats
[20:30] <highvoltage> I guess I can also post some stats to the list now and again
[20:31] <dinda> highvoltage: that would be good, maybe part of the monthly report?
[20:31] <alkisg> dinda: about the "how many schools are using edubuntu" question that you mentioned in the ML. E.g. here in greece we have a "greek edu apps" ubuntu repository and we can keep track of how many people are downloading those apps from the web server logs (about a terabyte per month). I wonder if the official repositories logs could be used as a measure of how many people are downloading/updating e.g. edubuntu-desktop...
[20:31] <highvoltage> dinda: that sounds like a good idea
[20:31] <dinda> alksig:  good idea, wonder who i can poke for that info?
[20:32] <alkisg> Nope, I guess some canonical sysadmin...
[20:32] <highvoltage> alkisg: that logs isn't really available
[20:32] <alkisg> highvoltage: not even to canonical sysadmins?
[20:33] <highvoltage> alkisg: since most of it is downloaded from mirrors they don't have access too, they don't have any access. mirrors aren't required to keep logs like that either
[20:33] <alkisg> E.g. popularity contest should also be a measure...
[20:33] <mhall119> there's also canonical-census
[20:33] <highvoltage> I guess popcon is the best shot, we could encourage users to use it
[20:33] <highvoltage> mhall119: canonical-census doesn't send data back about packages that are installed
[20:34] <dinda> highvoltage: do you have a link for popcorn?
[20:34] <mhall119> true, but I think it sends the distro name
[20:34] <alkisg> highvoltage: understood, but still, if there are 10 million estimated ubuntu users, and they're updating ubuntu-desktop N times per day from the main archives, and edubuntu-desktop is updated X times per day, that would give a rough measure of the edubuntu installations around.
[20:34] <alkisg> (by just using the main archives numbers)
[20:34] <highvoltage> dinda: yep: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Popcorn02.jpg/800px-Popcorn02.jpg
[20:35] <highvoltage> dinda: sorry :) here's the link to popcon! http://popcon.ubuntu.com/
[20:36] <mhall119> heh
[20:37] <highvoltage> hmm, oddly enough I can't find a page for popcon on the ubuntu wiki
[20:37] <highvoltage> there must be one somewhere
[20:38] <alkisg> ubuntu-desktop=1236957, edubuntu-desktop=12809, that would mean roughly 100.000 edubuntu installations...
[20:39] <alkisg> (and many schools are also using plain ubuntu, not edubuntu)
[20:39] <mhall119> alkisg: how about ubuntu-edu-* counts?
[20:39] <highvoltage> alkisg: yep. and some people install it by installing the ubuntu-edu packages
[20:39] <alkisg> Right, we'd better measure by some package installed in any edubuntu installation
[20:39] <highvoltage> or sometimes they just install some of the edubuntu maintained packages (like gnome nanny, for example)
[20:40] <alkisg> Also, LTSP is very much used in schools, so 1 installation there counts for dozens of clients
[20:41]  * highvoltage was also thinking of that
[20:41] <highvoltage> I also know of lots of schools in South Africa that specifically don't enabale popcon or something that uses unnecessary bandwidth because it's so expensive there
[20:41] <dinda> so. . .lots and probably more than we'll ever know :)
[20:42] <highvoltage> dinda: should we spend some time now on the other questions you added to the agenda?
[20:42]  * alkisg needs to automatically enable popcon in greek school installations ;)
[20:42] <highvoltage> I guess 20 minutes isn't enough to give those questions the attention they deserve!
[20:42] <highvoltage> alkisg: that would be nice :)
[20:42] <dinda> yes, just starting the basic dialog of what the community would like to see from Canonical
[20:43] <mhall119> printed CDs would be nice
[20:43] <highvoltage> dinda: yes, I don't think we'll ever have enough numbers, but if we keep track we might find some interesting results. for example, if we see sharp rise in usage numbers in line with ubuntu for a few releases, and then suddenly a sharp rise or decline in comparison, then we can get an idea of how much our user base is growing and how things are going
[20:43] <mhall119> of edubuntu
[20:43] <dinda> There are lots of people in the company who have very high personal interests in Edubuntu/Ubuntu in Education
[20:43] <alkisg> It would be nice to have some canonical developers working on some of the edubuntu packages... I know it's hard, but even a couple of them would make a vast difference.
[20:43] <highvoltage> dinda: how can we get those people involved?
[20:44] <dinda> so I"m trying to make the case for a dedicated resource like there used to be some 2+ years ago
[20:44] <highvoltage> dinda: even if they could just give feedback on what we're doing right or wrong that would already help!
[20:44] <mhall119> dinda: I dropped a hint to jono during his videocast today that he needed a horseman for education
[20:44] <dinda> it's a valuable market, not just for goodwill but seeing lots of adoption among schools and now Higher Ed
[20:44] <dinda> mhall119: lol - yeah, heard that - awesome!
[20:44] <pleia2> dinda: sorry I haven't replied to your email, it's great that you're able to reach out like this :) I still have to visit the rest of the schools in the bay area that are using ubuntu, but it's been very encouraging thus far
[20:45] <highvoltage> I spent Sunday to yesterday doing an LTSP deployment for a university in Uganda
[20:45] <highvoltage> was nice getting feedback from them about how nice it's working :)
[20:45] <mhall119> dinda: training for the schoolboard IT staff would be a big help I think
[20:46] <dinda> I'm going to visit a school here in houston that is all ubuntu and the guy who did all the work is also the Moodle Core Contributor coordinator
[20:46] <mhall119> right now the IT departments are against anything new/unfamiliar
[20:46] <highvoltage> dinda: now and again we have canonical staff peeking in to our edubuntu meetings and making some comments nad suggestings, even that is already really valuable imho
[20:46] <pleia2> mhall119: that's pretty common, we've only been able to get into charter schools (much less red tape than traditional public schools here in the US)
[20:46] <dinda> we might better traction from wannabe MOTU types and packaging help from the community
[20:46] <mhall119> yeah, I think generally better visibility between edubuntu and canonical staff would be good
[20:47] <dinda> if we can maybe partner with the Uw mentoring or other effort, we can place edubuntu packages as ones for folks to look at
[20:47] <mhall119> dinda: they put together a nice little black box set for Ubuntu Server/UEC
[20:47] <mhall119> something like that for Edubuntu would be awesome
[20:47] <dinda> I'm seeing the need for information outlined like this:
[20:48] <dinda> 1.  End users:  students/teachers/parents
[20:48] <dinda> 2. Decision makers - CIOs, IT Leaders, School Boards, governement/elected folks
[20:49] <dinda> 3.  solution providers  oem/odm/ and consulting companies that do business in the market space
[20:49] <dinda> doph and of course the whoel developer community :)
[20:49] <mhall119> I'd add Implementers: Principals and Sys Admins/Network Admins
[20:49] <dinda> I've got the first 3 on my list to try to write content for them
[20:49] <mhall119> they're not decision makers, nor end users
[20:50] <highvoltage> dinda: I've been meaning to ask Canonical about it, and let me know if you can take this question up or if I should ask someone else,
[20:50] <dinda> mhall119: so you see them as different from #2?
[20:50] <mhall119> but they'll probably be asked about the rollout cost
[20:50] <mhall119> dinda: yes, because they often don't have a say in what happens, but do give estimates on the cost and risks
[20:50] <highvoltage> dinda: we get questions now and again for commercial support, and Canonical doesn't support Edubuntu officially at this stage
[20:50] <mhall119> dinda: and those are the ones that will be the target for training
[20:51] <highvoltage> dinda: and the edubuntu project itself also doesn't offer commercial support, but there's lots of other companies out there that do
[20:51] <dinda> mhall119: ok 4.  Implementors  - could be IT staff or the volunteer wanting to setup an Ltsp lab
[20:51] <mhall119> dinda: include the school administrators too, they'll have to oversee it
[20:51] <highvoltage> dinda: would we be able to have an Edubuntu market place on the Edubuntu site, similar to what the Ubuntu marketplace used to be like on the Ubuntu site listing people and companies that offer paid for Edubuntu support and solutions?
[20:51] <dinda> good question
[20:52] <highvoltage> dinda: it would be great if you could get an answer
[20:52] <dinda> highvoltage: I can put that forward, was just looking at the Novell and RH sites to see how they handle the partner/affiliate or non-affiliated support providers
[20:52] <mhall119> yeah, and what the requirements would be to get listed
[20:53] <dinda> I know the requirements for the ubuntu marketplace used to be pretty low, will have to see if there is a guideline somewhere
[20:54] <dinda> official commercial support from Canonical is interesting. . .and I've asked about it
[20:54] <highvoltage> yes, anyone can be on the Ubuntu marketplace
[20:54] <dinda> if it's in main then it's supported by Canonical but. . .
[20:55] <dinda> until someone asks to buy support, then it's not really been tested
[20:55] <mhall119> not everything in edubuntu is in main anymore either
[20:55] <highvoltage> well not necessarily
[20:55] <highvoltage> just because /Canonical/ didn't test it doesn't mean that it's untested ;)
[20:55] <mhall119> I think the means the support is untested
[20:56] <mhall119> s/the/she/
[20:56] <dinda> highvoltage: I meant not testing as in QA but in no one's ever tried to buy Edubuntu support - afaik
[20:56] <highvoltage> mhall119: there are *many* companies out there that support packages in universe
[20:56] <mhall119> highvoltage: yes, but not canonical
[20:57] <highvoltage> dinda: you mean from Canonical, specifically
[20:57] <dinda> highvoltage: yes, at this point
[20:57] <ScottK> At one point Edubuntu was supported by Canonical (as in you could buy a support contract)
[20:57] <dinda> is there a need for Canonical to offer a different Edubuntu support offering?  or even an academically priced ubuntu support offering?
[20:58] <highvoltage> dinda: I think that's also kind of understanable, it's not advertised well on the Ubuntu website. Last I looked (a few weeks ago) there was just a vagure reference that there was an "Education Edition"
[20:58] <dinda> highvoltage: yes, and that is VERY confusing
[20:58] <dinda> I'm trying to get that text fixed
[20:58] <highvoltage> dinda: good question!
[20:58] <mhall119> dinda: technically I don't think there's a need, but the perception is important
[20:59] <mhall119> saying "Canonical offer Edubuntu support" sounds much different than "Canonical supports the packages that are in Edubuntu"
[20:59] <dinda> highvoltage: the link to download the Education Edition is really just a link to d/l Ubuntu
[20:59] <highvoltage> dinda: the packages available in Edubuntu are a small amount extra to those already in Ubuntu, I don't think it would take much effort or doing anything extra to support it
[20:59] <alkisg> Organizations here would like to hear that it's "officially supported by canonical" even if they didn't buy support until the user base is big enough. It would "silence" some people that say "we don't want to install that because it's not officially supported". I imagine after some years the user base would grow, and organizations would start buying support then...
[20:59] <dinda> mhall119: agreed and really there aren't alot of packages that would be sucha great burden if they did require some official support
[20:59] <highvoltage> dinda: the education upstreams (kde/tux4kids/etc) are doing a pretty good job of things like documenting their own work
[20:59] <mhall119> dinda: yeah, most are in main anyway
[21:00] <mhall119> dinda: if anything, it could exclude packages that schools/educators aren't likely to need
[21:00] <dinda> so it could make a good impact for schools and decision makers
[21:00] <mhall119> yes
[21:01] <dinda> highvoltage: does any of that documentation get pushed into the edubuntu offering?
[21:01] <mhall119> the last thing a school wants to do is shift their infrastructure to something new and have no support
[21:01] <highvoltage> sounds like it's an issue of validation too to some degree
[21:02] <highvoltage> dinda: some of it, yes. I want to get it featured more prominently, I've gone and linked to the upstream websites from our screenshots page so long
[21:02] <dinda> mhall119: it's actually easier on the infrastructure side (server) than o nthe desktop
[21:02] <mhall119> having an LTS release of Edubuntu, once there is official support, would help too
[21:02] <highvoltage> dinda: because people don't always know that they exist
[21:02] <mhall119> dinda: true, and I kind of meant both
[21:02] <highvoltage> imho we weren't ready for LTS the last 2 releases
[21:03] <mhall119> well there's not much point in calling it an LTS if there's no official "S"
[21:03] <highvoltage> not because of quality issues or support issues per se, but because things have been changing quite a lot, and we don't want people to use old, outdated stuff
[21:03] <highvoltage> for the next LTS release, it would be nice to have Edubuntu LTS again
[21:03] <highvoltage> (that's just my opinion)
[21:04] <alkisg> highvoltage++ :)
[21:04] <mhall119> but we'll need more than volunteers to backup such a commitment
[21:04] <dinda> mhall119: agreed
[21:04] <mhall119> saying "This is supported for 5 years by people who may disappear tomorrow" doesn't invoke confidence
[21:04] <dinda> ok, we can continue on mailing list, #edubuntu if others have to run
[21:04] <highvoltage> mhall119: there are no such gaurantees in Ubuntu either
[21:04] <mhall119> if it's supported by canonical, there's at least the expectation that canonical will be around
[21:05] <dinda> oh and I told dgroos I'd ask about perhaps moving the meeting time to evening US??
[21:05] <dinda> mhall119: I hear you!
[21:05] <highvoltage> dinda: we could alternate?
[21:06] <dinda> mhall119: we're asking folks to turn over their data centers to a small company with only 5 years behind it :)
[21:06] <alkisg> We tried many different hours and this was the one that worked best for people actually attending the meetings... but yeah, alternate schedules could also be good
[21:07] <mhall119> dinda: true, but canonical makes money by staying in business, they have incentive
[21:07] <mhall119> not so much with volunteers
[21:07] <mhall119> not financial incentive anyway
[21:07] <mhall119> I'm just playing devil's advocate
[21:07]  * dinda hands mhall119 a whole pile of virtual money and many thanks for his work :)
[21:07] <mhall119> *I* believe that volunteers will stick around
[21:08] <highvoltage> mhall119: well, if I had to stop my ubuntu support in education I'd be broke!
[21:08] <mhall119> highvoltage: not if it was your company's decision to focus on a different product
[21:08] <dinda> in general we need to do a better job of volunteer recognition
[21:08] <highvoltage> mhall119: indeed, but that happens to Canonical as well.
[21:08] <dinda> lost lots of good contributors b/c they said they felt unappreciated
[21:08] <mhall119> dinda: while I agree, i wasn't trying to say that
[21:08] <highvoltage> mhall119: in fact, in Edubuntu's case /it did/ happen already
[21:09] <Lns> IMHO, What we need is dedicated people already involved in education, and motivated to helping Edubuntu in THEIR schools, to become the volunteers that will stick around for a long time.
[21:09] <mhall119> highvoltage: yes, I know
[21:09] <mhall119> Lns: yes, that would probably be the ideal
[21:09] <dinda> Lns: agreed, Education is enough of a reason for many to become contributors
[21:09] <Lns> The sysadmins who take care of edubuntu are the ones most motivated to making it better, not people who might contribute a few patches/etc
[21:09] <mhall119> but that would require a lot of training
[21:09] <highvoltage> dinda: Canonical treated the Edubuntu contrubitors really horribly at one stage, yes
[21:09] <Lns> mhall119: not really. they can train themselves
[21:09] <alkisg> Volunteers can do many things, but it would help a lot if some packages (e.g. the easy ldap installation package I meantioned earlier) were developed by paid developers, and maintained by the community afterwards...
[21:10] <mhall119> Lns: in theory yes
[21:10] <highvoltage> mhall119: also, people who have pure financial motivation tend to contribute back the least, ime
[21:10] <mhall119> but that's not much of a way for us to be promoting it
[21:10] <Lns> all we need is one or two very well placed I.T. folks in schools who know LDAP inside and out to become the maintainers
[21:10] <dinda> alksig:  if you or someone can send me a list of such packages I can start to make that case
[21:10] <mhall119> highvoltage: I agree
[21:11] <mhall119> I'm not saying that *we* should be getting paid for this
[21:11] <Lns> (sorry to butt-in so late in the conversation btw)
[21:11] <dinda> The Moodle Core Dev coordinator might have some ideas for me - Moodle only uses 25 total contributors
[21:11] <mhall119> I'm saying that schools would feel better about making a committment if they knew they someone had a financial interest in continuing the product
[21:11] <dinda> yet it's a huge project
[21:11] <alkisg> dinda: ok, I'll try to make a list of things/packages were we would appreciate some professional developer help, at least to get them going.
[21:12] <dinda> thanks alksi
[21:12] <highvoltage> mhall119: *nod*
[21:12] <dinda> also, was asked once if conference sponsorships would help?
[21:12] <Lns> mhall119: I think schools would be more apt to start using edubuntu if they knew people in other schools who were using it - in the education world, it's ALL about who you know.
[21:12] <mhall119> Lns: maybe, but that's a chicken and egg problem
[21:13] <Lns> mhall119: true ;)
[21:13] <mhall119> once Edubuntu is widely used, it will be more widely used
[21:13] <highvoltage> dinda: what kind of conference sponsorships? Like Educational conferences?
[21:13] <mhall119> educational conferences would be awesome
[21:13] <dinda> highvoltage: yes, any place where it would be good to promote Edubuntu/Ubuntu
[21:13] <mhall119> there was a huge one in Orlando earlier this year, but it was like $1200 a table
[21:13] <dinda> I'm thinking like Educause and other Education conferences
[21:13]  * inetpro listening in
[21:13] <Lns> mhall119: but marketing and exposure of the few schools that DO have it right now are key. We need to spread the word as widely as possible, that's how people get to see it and consider it for themselves
[21:14] <highvoltage> dinda: are you familiar with Canonical's support offerings?
[21:14] <dinda> highvoltage: somewhat
[21:14] <mhall119> Lns: true, but they'll still need help learning what they need to learn before they can implement it themselves
[21:14] <mhall119> and it'll take longer if they have to do that all by themselves
[21:14] <dinda> Like the one cproffit spoke at;  regional and national technology in education conferences
[21:14] <Lns> mhall119: that's where community support comes in from other schools.
[21:15] <Lns> there is no "all by themselves" in open source OR education.
[21:15] <mhall119> Lns: where I live at least, the decisions are made by the county schoolboard, not individual schools
[21:15] <Lns> very tight knit communities where everyone loves helping others
[21:15] <highvoltage> dinda: ok, perhaps we need to talk more about the specifics, but my clients in South Africa come to me specifically because they can't get the kind of support they need from Canonical. Canonical has very set support products and pricing at the moment, which is quite understanable, but it doesn't work for a lot of people
[21:15] <dinda> mhall119: that's true for most of the US, except for private and charter schools where they have freedom
[21:15] <mhall119> and the schoolboards don't seem to cross paths with other schooboards much
[21:15] <Lns> mhall119: yes that's true in most cases.
[21:16] <highvoltage> dinda: I'm trying to keep a very long explanation short here, so please bear with me...
[21:16] <mhall119> having an Edubuntu booth at the big educational software expos would be good just to let people know about it, and maybe talk to people who have implemented it
[21:16] <dinda> highvoltage: yes, right now pricing is mostly for Tier 1 countries, not developing countries
[21:17] <highvoltage> dinda: well, the same applies to clients I work with in Canada and the US :)
[21:17]  * dinda adds Academic pricing to the list of things to push up :)
[21:18] <mhall119> dinda: could Canonical offer an Edubuntu support offering that only covered a subset of packages?  this rather than a superset of what is already supported?
[21:18] <Lns> what we're talking about isn't 'edubuntu' specific - it's about promoting open source projects in general
[21:18] <Lns> we could probably learn a lot from what the mozilla / OOo people have done to promote their "products"
[21:18] <highvoltage> dinda: something that could perhaps work (I haven't put too much thought in it yet), would be some kind of official training from canonical that can show that a company has the skills it needs to provide edubuntu support
[21:18] <highvoltage> dinda: it's not just a pricing issue though
[21:19] <mhall119> highvoltage: is there any reason we couldn't put together such a training/testing package?
[21:19] <mhall119> I know the edubuntu/canonical relationships is kind of fuzzy at the edges
[21:19] <dinda> I can do the standard Edubuntu desktop training on my own as a community member - already started it
[21:19] <highvoltage> dinda: there are some issues that Canonical couldn't decide on before, like, "is an ltsp server a server or a desktop?" and "would the workstations count as one system, or many in terms of pricing", and while they decide the clients walk away
[21:19] <dinda> but the sys admin and up level gets trickier
[21:20] <highvoltage> mhall119: I don't think there's anything stopping us from doing it, I was thinking of even doing it myself (with help from others of course) some time during next year
[21:20] <dinda> highvoltage: I think they (canonical) is a in a better place to start addressing those questions now
[21:21] <mhall119> highvoltage: okay, I wasn't sure what we could call "official" with Edubuntu having a special place in Canonical's trademark policy
[21:21] <highvoltage> a previous colleague of mine wanted to start something like an Edubuntu Academy, a place where companies could send their staff to and they'd get training on how to use Ubuntu/Edubuntu in schools
[21:21] <highvoltage> I've had a few people contact me over the last year asking for such training, but I haven't been in a position to provide it due to time constraints
[21:21] <dinda> so this is all good stuff, now I just need to get it better organized so I can start making the case for it
[21:22] <highvoltage> dinda: *nod* I agree. Canonical has gotten a lot better with that
[21:22] <mhall119> dinda: can you check on the trademark question if we were to offer paid support or training?
[21:22] <mhall119> "we" being the community
[21:22] <highvoltage> mhall119: we can
[21:22] <mhall119> highvoltage: have you checked?
[21:23] <highvoltage> mhall119: the trademark policy is on the website. we can offer Edubuntu services, we can't call a company we own Edubuntu though or call our product "Edubuntu"
[21:23] <dinda> i'm confused o nthe use of the word 'official' myself like all the docs are considered official
[21:23] <mhall119> so "Edubuntu Academy" would be out
[21:24] <highvoltage> mhall119: basically, yes, but we could get permission for that, or even partner up for that
[21:24] <mhall119> hmm
[21:24] <dinda> so what's to stop to a community group from saying they've developed 'official' training materials, CC-By-SA?
[21:24] <mhall119> it would be nice it there was a non-profit Edubuntu Foundation for that
[21:25] <mhall119> dinda: trademark
[21:25] <mhall119> "official" implies endorsement
[21:25] <mhall119> or affiliation
[21:26] <highvoltage> dinda: indeed, there's a few "officials" here. there's what's supported by Canonical officially, there's official packages from the Edubuntu project in the Ubuntu archives, there's official packages from the Edubuntu community in the stable PPA, sometimes there's some confusion and blurring when people talk about official
[21:26] <mhall119> and if non such exists, it's a trademark violation
[21:26] <mhall119> at least, that's my understanding
[21:27] <dinda> i'm still confused but that's just me
[21:27] <mhall119> legalese
[21:28] <mhall119> if it made easy sense, lawyers wouldn't get so much money
[21:28] <highvoltage> dinda: please talk about it, I'd like to know what the confusing parts are
[21:28] <highvoltage> trademarks aren't /that/ complicated, really
[21:28] <dinda> well don't understand who gives the 'official' endorsement?  The CC or someone in Canonical?
[21:28] <dinda> Tech board for packages?
[21:29] <dinda> i can understand if there is a competing commercial interest. . .
[21:30] <dinda> but in the case of Edubuntu training, it's not something canonical has any plans to do - afaik
[21:30] <highvoltage> yes those are seperate issues
[21:30] <highvoltage> as far as packages, etc go, we're about as official as we need to be
[21:30] <mhall119> dinda: it's more a matter of customer perception
[21:30] <highvoltage> I think mhall119 was talking about support and the commercial side more specifically
[21:31] <mhall119> we can't make people think that what we're offing is coming from or supported by Canonical unless it is
[21:31] <mhall119> since Canonical owns the trademark on Edubuntu, claiming anything as the "official Edubuntu $foo" implies canonical's approval
[21:31] <highvoltage> mhall119: I also don't necessarilly see it as a problem if Canonical doesn't want to support it. there should just be good and obvious ways for others to do it then
[21:32] <highvoltage> mhall119: again, not really
[21:32] <mhall119> highvoltage: just my understanding of trademark law
[21:32] <mhall119> I know Fluxbuntu had to change their name because of it
[21:33] <highvoltage> mhall119: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[21:34] <mhall119> highvoltage: if we sold training or certification, it would fall under the "Any Commercial use" exclusion
[21:34] <dinda> I guess all the derivatives have a similar issue:  Kubuntu, Xubuntu, while Kubuntu is considered an official derivative, there is no support you can buy for it from canonical
[21:34] <highvoltage> mhall119: no, you could do training
[21:35] <mhall119> also "Use in combination with any product or service which is presented as being Certified or Official or formally associated with us or our products or services."
[21:35] <mhall119> is excluded
[21:35] <highvoltage> mhall119: certification is another story. Canonical can't stop you legally from selling Edubuntu support or training, and saying that it is
[21:35] <mhall119> highvoltage: true
[21:36] <mhall119> but that isn't the kind of support and training I was hoping to have to offer to schools
[21:36] <mhall119> and we certainly couldn't call it "official Edubuntu training"
[21:36] <mhall119> just "Edubuntu training"
[21:36] <mhall119> if even then
[21:36] <mhall119> maybe it would have to be "Training on the use of Edubuntu"
[21:36] <dinda> like many Loco teams do with Ubuntu training
[21:36] <highvoltage> mhall119: If I understand you correctly, what you're after, basically, is a rubberstamping from Canonical that you're legit and are allowed to do the training, etc you want to provide?
[21:37] <mhall119> highvoltage: yes
[21:37] <highvoltage> mhall119: personally, I'm not that hung up on having "officially" pasted everywhere.
[21:37] <mhall119> so we don't have to throw in a bunch of disclaimers when we talk about it
[21:37] <dinda> mhall119: ah yes, in that case they would stop you
[21:37] <highvoltage> mhall119: I think if you put something good together, Canonical would do that, I think we're making a bigger issue out of this than it is
[21:38] <mhall119> highvoltage: I'm sure they would, I just wanted to get clarification
[21:38] <highvoltage> I can't see why Canonical would be against something that would ultimately promote their line of products and expand their potential markets. Sure there's a trademark. I don't think it's hard to get around by just talking to Canonical. big deal.
[21:39] <highvoltage> mhall119: so, if it's not clear, you can give something called "Edubuntu training", but not "official Edubuntu training" unless you have permission from Canonical to do so
[21:40] <mhall119> highvoltage: with trademark law, if you knowing allow the unlicensed use of a trademark, it becomes harder to enforce it
[21:40] <highvoltage> I think having a single "official training" would be a bad idea. having different courses or types of training that is approved by Canonical sounds more useful
[21:40] <mhall119> so even if Canonical liked it, it would have to be licensed or not allowed, otherwise it could harm them
[21:41] <mhall119> going back to Fluxbuntu, i'm sure canonical liked it, but they couldn't let their trademark be used like that
[21:41] <highvoltage> mhall119: yes, what I'm saying is that if it's in their best interest, then it's very likely that you'll get the permission that you need. I didn't suggest unauthorized use.
[21:41] <mhall119> highvoltage: okay, on that we agree
[21:42] <mhall119> as long as we get permission and don't assume it
[21:43] <mhall119> sorry, but I've got to head home now
[21:43] <highvoltage> mhall119: it was the responsibility of fluxbuntu to clear that out with canonical before naming their product(s), so I don't see how that's relevant
[21:43] <mhall119> highvoltage: if we start offering training we'd need to do the same
[21:43] <mhall119> before we use "Edubuntu" in the name
[21:43] <mhall119> is all I'm saying
[21:43] <highvoltage> mhall119: yes. it's no big deal.
[21:44] <mhall119> ok
[21:44] <mhall119> gotta run now, ping me in #edubuntu if there's anything more I need to be aware of
[21:45] <highvoltage> ok. this meeting is already 45 minutes over already :)
[21:45] <mhall119> just a tad late
[21:45] <highvoltage> dinda: sorry if things sounded a bit heated
[21:45] <dinda> not at all, good discussion
[21:45]  * mhall119 is heated, the A/C at my office is broken :(
[21:45] <dinda> helps me try to get my head around all the issues
[21:45]  * inetpro enjoyed the interesting discussion
[21:45] <mhall119> dinda: out of curiousity, who are you reporting all this to inside Canonical?
[21:46] <highvoltage> dinda: mhall119's issue is actually quite common around providers who want to provide high-quality services. so that is indeed something to think about imho
[21:46] <dinda> i'm in the OEM department, where the previous Education Manager used to be housed
[21:47] <dinda> but I'm just in the reporting/drafting stages of recommendations so we'll see how it goes
[21:48] <dinda> at least management seems to be interested in anything Education again so that is good first step :)  I hope!
[21:51] <highvoltage> dinda: well, I've always appreciated the bridging that you've done between Canonical and Edubuntu, if it wasn't for you, no one else would probably have been doing it
[21:51] <dinda> highvoltage: I'm trying :)
[21:51] <dinda> I'll be around #edubuntu later if anyone has other questions
[21:52] <dinda> and please email the list or me if anyone has suggestions, discussion points
[21:53]  * highvoltage too
[21:54] <alkisg> Thanks all
[21:55] <dinda> thanks everyone!