[01:17] <troy_s> MarkDude: Hello. Who controls the default wallpaper in Ubuntu?
[01:19] <MarkDude> idk troy_s
[01:19] <troy_s> MarkDude: Odd.
[01:20] <troy_s> MarkDude: And yet you come into the channel and ask as though someone in here has control over it.
[01:20]  * MarkDude was asking for confirmation, that was my 1st impetus
[01:21] <MarkDude> I dont trust OMG as a source
[01:21] <troy_s> MarkDude: Second, while _I_ may agree that the wallpaper may be disagreeable in some capacities, I'd encourage you to actually think through your thought process before you conclude that in fact _you_ perhaps have a solution.
[01:21] <troy_s> MarkDude: The wallpaper will be the wallpaper. It has been that way since 4.10.
[01:22] <troy_s> MarkDude: And finally, I'd ask you what validity and credibility _anyone_ has in Libre art and design? Once you find that person, you may wish to start paying attention to the 'teasing' or commentary. Until then, it is a blind and worthless mob chasing after blind and worthless ideals.
[01:22]  * MarkDude has no solution here. When I asked some friends for their opinion, they suggested that maybe Ubuntu people (being used to using Ubuntu) had not SEEN Fedora's wallpaper
[01:23] <MarkDude> It was suggested I bring it here
[01:23] <troy_s> MarkDude: Fedora is not exactly worth comparing against as they are as backwards as any other distribution.
[01:23] <MarkDude> agreed :)
[01:24] <troy_s> MarkDude: I'd suggest that perhaps it is a much deeper and cultural issue. That said, before one can cite a problem, it is probably worth framing exactly what it is. Otherwise we simply run around with our hands in the air screaming out OMFG.
[01:24] <MarkDude> just the similarity
[01:24] <troy_s> MarkDude: And _that_ is difficult. At least to arrive at any sort of agreement upon (for various reasons)
[01:24] <troy_s> MarkDude: When you are looking at absolutely NOTHING - like closing your eyes - you may find similarities with EVERYTHING.
[01:25] <MarkDude> They look similar to *some* not all, so I brought it to the *art * people
[01:25] <troy_s> MarkDude: The point is - the chronic failure of Fedora / SUSE / and Ubuntu art, design, presence, aesthetics, experience, et al are symptomatic of the same disease.
[01:25] <MarkDude> Look I would be willing to discuss (possibly debate) If I knew what you were saying :)
[01:25] <troy_s> MarkDude: Similar? I see nothing worth commenting on. They both exhibit a complete inept degree of ... anything. Evaluating it is worthless.
[01:26] <troy_s> MarkDude: I'm saying, move along. They are both empty of anything. Nothing to see. Literally.
[01:26]  * MarkDude withdraws point
[01:26]  * MarkDude agrees with you
[01:26] <MarkDude> Wishes I would have put it the way you did
[01:27] <troy_s> MarkDude: Sorry... if we were talking something that had anything to do with any emotion or technique or execution, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. But they are equally worthless. Following in a long lineage of empty MUSTNOTBECONTRASTY, MUSTBEUSABLE, MUSTFITALLICONSEVERYWHERE piles of tripe rubbish peddled for the past two generations.
[01:27] <troy_s> MarkDude: We have the aesthetic worth of amoebas.
[01:27] <MarkDude> BTW, the other wallpapers that I saw on http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-New-Wallpapers-and-Theme-of-Ubuntu-10-10-153934.shtml are actually pretty cool
[01:28] <MarkDude> Just one I was wondering about, wanted to ask the *source*
[01:28] <troy_s> MarkDude: And why are those 'pretty cool' ;)
[01:29] <MarkDude> Are you the caterpillar from Through the Looking Glass?
[01:29] <troy_s> MarkDude: (Anything beyond "Well it doesn't resemble what someone would barf up after drinking too much vodka and eating a salmon souffle" would suffice.)
[01:29] <MarkDude> Call me a simpleton, I was hoping there would be a meerkat somewhere, barring that, the others meet acceptable standards
[01:30] <troy_s> MarkDude: Ok. On animals - Mark has banished them since Intrepid. He has more or less said "someone prove me wrong" but they aren't a focus point.
[01:30] <darkmatter> haha. got you you corrupted bastard file *burns backup*
[01:30] <troy_s> MarkDude: Problem is Mark, you have to define acceptable. _That_ has worth.
[01:31] <troy_s> MarkDude: And it is also equally challenging.
[01:31]  * MarkDude gets it
[01:31] <troy_s> MarkDude: Dare I say, if someone actually stopped to try and define that, we'd probably all be about a decade ahead in our ability to evaluate art and design choices.
[01:31] <MarkDude> Ubuntu's biggest issue is that it has *one* stockholder
[01:31] <troy_s> MarkDude: Erm... no. That would mean that Fedora and SUSE do better, and they don't.
[01:31] <troy_s> MarkDude: They fail equally miserably with equally worthless offerings.
[01:32]  * MarkDude disagrees there
[01:32] <troy_s> MarkDude: (And make no mistake, those are the _best_ selection of alternate wallpapers provided in Ubuntu since its inception. By a monumental leap. There are very concrete reasons that I'd stake that claim on.)
[01:32] <darkmatter> linux" aka the shit we do to piss people of technically and make their eyes bleed aethetically \o/
[01:32] <MarkDude> Fedora picked a crappy pic for a reason
[01:32] <MarkDude> it *tied in* with their theme
[01:33] <troy_s> MarkDude: Fedora had _one_ era of successful work. It was Diana Fong's. Fedora 5, 6, 7. SINCE that time, they have been absolutely pathetic.
[01:33] <MarkDude> Goddard & rocket ship
[01:33] <troy_s> MarkDude: It is abject failure.
[01:33] <MarkDude> still has a theme
[01:33] <troy_s> MarkDude: Fedora has _since_ ridden on Fong's coattails.
[01:33] <MarkDude> that relates to the crappy picture
[01:33] <troy_s> MarkDude: Agreed. So perhaps that is 'one' part of the complex puzzle. Concept.
[01:33] <MarkDude> What about Puppy Linux?
[01:34] <troy_s> MarkDude: What about it?
[01:34] <MarkDude> Very simplistic style  matches their simple theme
[01:34] <MarkDude> it works on old hardware
[01:35] <troy_s> MarkDude: Erm. Simplistic. As in 'something of low intellectual prowess'?
[01:35] <MarkDude> art need not be complex to be Art
[01:35] <troy_s> MarkDude: Right. Design constraint. Is that relevant really? Let's take it back to green / black monochrome too. Or 16 bit displays.
[01:35] <troy_s> MarkDude: Where do you draw your line? Why?
[01:35] <MarkDude> The new wallpaper offends me on many levels
[01:36] <troy_s> MarkDude: Those are all hidden questions that people like to answer with a YES or a NO as a net sum answer.
[01:36] <MarkDude> in my gut
[01:36] <troy_s> MarkDude: Right. What are they?
[01:36] <MarkDude> my artistic sensibilities
[01:36] <troy_s> MarkDude: Great. Goto 10. What are they.
[01:36] <MarkDude> The colors dont play well with each other
[01:37] <troy_s> MarkDude: Hrm. So a palette. So if we only had harmonious palette tones it would be fan-fscking-tastic right?
[01:37] <troy_s> MarkDude: Is the solution strictly colour theory then?
[01:38] <MarkDude> it looks like 3 light effects >> gradient flares were colored orange
[01:38] <MarkDude> The balance does not follow the *thirds*
[01:39] <MarkDude> to be balanced they should be over to the left *or* the right
[01:39] <troy_s> MarkDude: Ok. Erm... Isn't aurora borealus just a 'light effect'? I'd hope that 'light effects' _can_ be compelling in certain contexts.
[01:39] <troy_s> MarkDude: Hrm. Symmetrical?
[01:39] <MarkDude> preferably to the right, imho
[01:39] <troy_s> MarkDude: Mirror image symmetrical?
[01:39] <MarkDude> to have the subject not in the center
[01:39] <MarkDude> Its not a portrait
[01:39] <troy_s> MarkDude: Ok... so Composition. Perhaps another component of this puzzle.
[01:40] <troy_s> MarkDude: (And yet all classically composed portraiture since the Renaissance has been 'off centre'... odd you feel that portraiture conjures ideas of mirror symmetry.)
[01:40] <MarkDude> functionally many folks type without light, that pic wont light the keyboard much either
[01:41]  * MarkDude is not sure if you know what I mean by thirds
[01:41] <troy_s> MarkDude: Hrm... thirds.
[01:41] <troy_s> MarkDude: Surely you aren't referring to the rule of thirds.
[01:41] <troy_s> MarkDude: Which is a rough approximation of Phi aka the Golden Ratio.
[01:41] <troy_s> ?
[01:41] <troy_s> MarkDude: Which ... lo and behold ... is a westernized notion stemming from the Renaissance?
[01:42] <MarkDude> if Fedoras pic had something *almost* going for it it is that the trails
[01:42] <troy_s> MarkDude: Right. May I ask you a question?
[01:42] <troy_s> MarkDude: Why do you value your opinion over that of others?
[01:42]  * MarkDude thinks it dates back to our primordial selves
[01:42] <troy_s> MarkDude: It doesn't.
[01:42] <troy_s> MarkDude: It's a cultural aesthetic actually.
[01:42] <troy_s> MarkDude: But nice try.
[01:42] <MarkDude> Like that can be proved
[01:42] <troy_s> MarkDude: It can and has.
[01:42] <darkmatter> composition is not ruled by empirical or hard set "this is how you do it" (contrary to popular beliefs)
[01:43] <MarkDude> was the circle *invented* or discovered?
[01:43] <darkmatter> applies to software design as well, which is why ui's fail so freaking hard
[01:43] <troy_s> darkmatter: Strictly speaking, everything you see in today's day and age does. The Renaissance was _that_ impactful.
[01:43] <MarkDude> rational people can take both sides there
[01:44] <troy_s> MarkDude: Only if you are ethnocentric.
[01:44] <MarkDude> the Greeks *discovered* balance
[01:44] <troy_s> MarkDude: Ugh.
[01:44] <MarkDude> if you say invented thats fair
[01:44] <troy_s> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/world/americas/26iht-currents.html?_r=1
[01:45] <MarkDude> possibly the Etruscans. Their records are few & far between tho :D
[01:45] <troy_s> http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Culture-Visual-Perception/dp/0672608251
[01:46] <troy_s> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11487292
[01:46] <troy_s> Getting us back to the "Why do you value your opinion more than that of others with regards to art and design?"
[01:47] <darkmatter> troy_s: strictly speaking is apples to oranges. I know it _does_ , just saying that it _shouldn't_, as it is the end result that matters.
[01:47] <troy_s> (And no, there are no easy answers.)
[01:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: It comes bundled with a whole bunch of things that people don't want to look at. They don't want to see. They don't want to think about.
[01:48] <darkmatter> troy_s: precisely
[01:49] <troy_s> darkmatter: But it _does_ at least begin to explain some of the reasons why - in the end - our wallpapers are ZOMFGSUCKUGLY.
[01:49] <troy_s> etc.
[01:49] <MarkDude> 1st opinion of mine I brought to this channel , my opinion that the pic is similar to F13
[01:50] <MarkDude> 2nd was it offends my sensibilities
[01:50] <MarkDude> my opinion is NO more relevant than anyones
[01:50] <MarkDude> the money behind the project has the most important opinion
[01:51] <MarkDude> correction 1 of the papers is lacking in my opinion
[01:51] <MarkDude> the others are good enough
[01:51] <MarkDude> I really like the water and branch one
[01:52] <MarkDude> My intent was to * ask* if others saw the similarities with F13. apparently not
[01:54] <MarkDude> troy_s, are you into Nihilism? Just curious :)
[01:54] <darkmatter> troy_s: wallpaper et al not withstanding, in all it's epic cheesiness, at least the maverick art makes my eyes bleed a little less than the previous offerings
[01:56] <darkmatter> speaking if. gotta burn one more backup and then I'm back on uby
[01:56] <darkmatter> of*
[02:03] <MarkDude> I can imagine it must be hard making art under the constraints that have been laid down
[02:04] <troy_s> Wait.
[02:04] <troy_s> So the client is always right? If the client wants blinking text on a piece and it drives away the audience... I wonder about that.
[02:04] <MarkDude> I just imagine Mark S saying *reject* it actually relates to the name of the release
[02:04] <troy_s> MarkDude: And no. I believe I have phrased and framed my concerns for the net sum reaction of "IS UGLY"
[02:04] <MarkDude> For the purposes of this conversation yes
[02:04] <troy_s> MarkDude: And I'd hope you can appreciate the complexity of it.
[02:05] <MarkDude> And that you cant use animals
[02:05] <MarkDude> unless it can be justified
[02:05] <troy_s> MarkDude: And he doesn't. And he paid for almost every single thing you have ever seen in Ubuntu proper.
[02:05] <MarkDude> He is a complex person -
[02:05] <MarkDude> visionary *and* asshole
[02:06] <MarkDude> the latter is what makes him so good at being a visionary\
[02:06] <MarkDude> there are very few people in the world that could bring a project this far
[02:06] <troy_s> MarkDude: Wow. I thought we were talking about a wallpaper.
[02:07] <troy_s> MarkDude: Being strong willed doesn't exactly equate with a sensible and contemporary view on art and design complexities.
[02:07]  * MarkDude imagines that he is having this conversation with Flea in the Big Liebowski
[02:07] <MarkDude> are you sure you are not a Nihilist?
[02:07] <troy_s> MarkDude: Needless to say. Even if there _was_ a wonderful bastion of aesthetic thinking there... even _then_... would that do the Libre world at large as much good as say, having the culture itself develop that bastion of aesthetics?
[02:08]  * MarkDude agrees
[02:08]  * MarkDude is a FOSS advocate
[02:08] <troy_s> MarkDude: Egads man. Ad Hominem isn't exactly helping your case.
[02:08] <MarkDude> Im just saying not all artists I have known are so negative
[02:08] <MarkDude> or resigned
[02:09] <troy_s> MarkDude: If I disagree with the vast bulk of attitude and opinion being peddled around Libre culture "art" and "design" surely doesn't equate me with being a nihilist.
[02:09] <MarkDude> Your ignoring the question was assumed as a yes
[02:09] <troy_s> MarkDude: And no. I'd also be leery of calling _anyone_ an artist until you probably looked at something they did.
[02:09] <troy_s> MarkDude: As in general, that term should be granted... not claimed.
[02:10]  * MarkDude has partially divested himself from Libre, hence my calling myself a *FOSS* advocate
[02:10] <troy_s> MarkDude: I am just wondering exactly what one hopes to achieve. Is that fair?
[02:10] <MarkDude> Of course
[02:10] <troy_s> MarkDude: Open Source?
[02:11]  * MarkDude proposes that Creative Commons has more Art sense than say your average Linux user
[02:11] <troy_s> MarkDude: At any rate, that's a side debate. I am just wondering how much you think you could achieve. If I said "yes that's the default wallpaper" it likely wouldn't change much, correct?
[02:12] <MarkDude> Might have saved the last few minutes of discussion :)
[02:12] <MarkDude> Not that I mind it
[02:12] <MarkDude> you are actually decent to disagree with
[02:12] <MarkDude> you are pretty much fair in how you bring your point( as I try to be)
[02:13]  * MarkDude would like to meet you at some event upcoming  :)
[02:13]  * MarkDude admires how you bring opinions to the table
[02:14] <MarkDude> I apologize if you viewed the Nihilism as an attack
[02:14] <troy_s> MarkDude: I didn't.
[02:14] <MarkDude> I was more trying to figure out you frame of reference
[02:14] <MarkDude> as you are with me apparently :)
[02:14] <troy_s> MarkDude: I think it avoided the issue. Yes I strongly disagree with about 99.9% of the culture's "art" and "design" thinking. True.
[02:14] <troy_s> MarkDude: But that is not the culture's problem. That's mine.
[02:15] <MarkDude> Ok but not the Life is horrible part?
[02:15]  * MarkDude can see how that would be a broad brush on my part
[02:16] <troy_s> MarkDude: Sustained passion isn't exactly a demerit. If it is, I am happily found guilt.
[02:16] <troy_s> s/guilt/guilty.
[02:16] <MarkDude> Ok I see where you are coming from
[02:17] <troy_s> MarkDude: In contrast to say, once every six months of ZOMG and then not giving a rat's bottom about it.
[02:17] <MarkDude> you are basically saying most people are full of crap
[02:17] <troy_s> MarkDude: Because it will likely take a little more than that I'd hope.
[02:17] <troy_s> MarkDude: Not at all. I tend to believe the Libre community has some of the brightest minds involved with it.
[02:18] <troy_s> MarkDude: Passionate, diligent, and determined.
[02:19] <troy_s> MarkDude: But the origins _may_ have an impact on why we are where we are. I also don't subscribe to the idea that we can simply keep forging along using the same techniques. Which I suppose is difficult, as those very techniques brought a pretty good deal of success in some capacities.
[02:19] <MarkDude> artwise tho
[02:20] <troy_s> MarkDude: Different set of tools. Different set of weapons. Including the ability to care about art and design and all of that messy complexity for longer than say, two minutes per year.
[02:20] <MarkDude> So the deeper issue would be whether FOSS aims to be on its own on an island- or whether to have some of the mainland join
[02:21] <troy_s> MarkDude: Maybe even more complicated?
[02:21] <troy_s> MarkDude: Was the DIY movement not an isolated movement at one point?
[02:21] <troy_s> MarkDude: Surrealists?
[02:21] <troy_s> MarkDude: Etc.
[02:22] <troy_s> MarkDude: "Mainland" I'm not so certain of.
[02:22] <MarkDude> Yes, and then the hipsters of the time said it was over once the public enjoyed it also
[02:22] <troy_s> MarkDude: Well it certainly had a voice. It had a passion.
[02:22] <troy_s> MarkDude: And yet, for all of the ripe fruit to be had in Libre software, our art and design has zero voice.
[02:22] <MarkDude> Like that band that is cooler when *less* folks like it?
[02:22] <troy_s> MarkDude: Rather interesting.
[02:22] <troy_s> MarkDude: No. I _do_ perceive an issue with our cultural value of art and design.
[02:23] <troy_s> MarkDude: Not a "Just you wait" attitude.
[02:23] <MarkDude> So is Art for the masses or just a few?
[02:23] <troy_s> MarkDude: If we had _art_. ;)
[02:23] <MarkDude> where is that line drawn
[02:23] <MarkDude> ?
[02:23] <troy_s> MarkDude: But again, much like your original answers... 'concept' for example.
[02:24] <troy_s> MarkDude: There is no voice. Certainly _not_ the voice that we should likely be using.
[02:24] <troy_s> MarkDude: The idea of Free software is at least as powerful as those that propelled entire art movements of the past.
[02:24] <troy_s> MarkDude: And yet, _no_ where do we actually see it.
[02:25] <troy_s> MarkDude: In fact, the complete opposite happens. Instead of imbuing work with the voice, we struggle to appease everyone.
[02:25] <troy_s> MarkDude: And in doing so, we effectively create a cake with everyone's favourite ingredients or worrying about everyone's allergies.
[02:26] <troy_s> MarkDude: (Note the obviously inherent fallacy of 'everyone's favourite ingredients' - it's a Utopian myth. More close to perhaps avoiding everyone's allergies. That would amount to a cake made out of rice maybe?)
[02:26] <troy_s> (And even then... I am quite sure someone somewhere is allergic to rice.)
[02:29] <troy_s> MarkDude: Fair?
[02:35] <MarkDude> yes
[02:35]  * darkmatter nods in approval of that analogy 
[02:35]  * MarkDude concedes
[02:36] <MarkDude> You effin rock troy_s
[02:37] <troy_s> MarkDude: Well that makes one person that thinks so. ;)
[02:37] <darkmatter> oh. my. word. brasero just asked me the same question _twice_ with slightly different wording
[02:37] <troy_s> MarkDude: Sadly though... If it were about me 'rocking' it might be easier to tackle (ok well... not) than the real issues. The deep rooted cultural ones. I suppose it is _positive_ that people appear to care more now.
[02:38] <darkmatter> and now a third time. lol
[02:38] <troy_s> darkmatter: Maybe you aren't _really_ _really_ sure.
[02:39] <darkmatter> troy_s: indeed. like. I change my mind more often than. oh, wait, i never change my mind...
[02:40] <darkmatter> reminds me of windows xp...
[02:41] <darkmatter> oh. my. I think it's going to ask me for each and every file: how about "I don't give a rats ass about windows compatibility. burn the fscking backup now" as a button option
[03:23] <hv> are both "Radiance
[03:23] <hv> oops!
[03:23] <hv> are both "Radiance" and "Ambiance" designed to be light-themes?
[21:02] <darkmatter> vish: I have thenm in that dir for ease of reference. they go in <theme>/<size>/status> per usual
[21:02] <darkmatter> oof course with humanity the sixe and status are reversed :P
[21:02] <vish> hehe!
[21:06] <darkmatter> vish: setup was painless except for the typo in my xorg overrides. thank teh powers that be for chroot!
[21:07] <vish> darkmatter: cool! i'm actually planning on re-installing too.. gonna download the maverick beta and use a btrfs /home ;)
[21:07] <darkmatter> hehe