[00:26] <DonSlice> Ah sweet.
[00:26] <DonSlice> Anyone having issues with Guake in regards to bashrc formatting/coloring?
[00:27]  * penguin42 doesn't know guake
[00:27] <jasbutut> I got partial upgrade, how about you?
[00:28] <DonSlice> I don't think I got a partial upgrade.
[00:28] <penguin42> jasbutut: Couple of stuck packages; evolution in particular
[00:28] <DonSlice> oh. right. derp
[00:29] <jasbutut> @penguin42: I got much, include nvidia driver. Totally 50 MB on 30 packages.
[00:30] <penguin42> not sure what the current state of nvidia is; I'm just left with evolution
[00:30] <jasbutut> I'm looking out how to know which update is safe?
[00:30] <penguin42> one way to find out!
[00:31] <jasbutut> how?
[00:33] <penguin42> try it!
[00:35] <jasbutut> I tr
[00:36] <jasbutut> I'm trying to find the safe one.
[00:36] <penguin42> jasbutut: But there are still plenty of things that go wrong, so don't do it on a critical machine
[00:38] <jasbutut> I still waiting. Maybe dependencies resolve itself next few hours.
[00:40] <jasbutut> And now scanning the forum, maybe someone got same issue.
[01:11] <scott_ino> hello, I'd like to test my multi-touch and I know ubuntu is doing major work on multi-touch for next release but I'd like to try and test now with whatever existing packages exist. Utouch doesn't seem to be there
[01:12] <penguin42> scott_ino: If no one here can answer you might want to try #ubuntu-x
[01:13] <scott_ino> ty penguin42
[01:13] <DonSlice> Anyone having issues with Guake in regards to bashrc formatting/coloring. I have my bash set to be all pretty blue, but guake strips it. :(
[01:13] <scott_ino> I know they're working on a completely new implementation but I'd like to try with the existing tools
[01:19] <voidmage> penguin42: thanks for testing that earlier, wrote a small patch that should fix it
[01:19] <penguin42> no problem
[02:36] <DonSlice> When I run guake from the menu, it fails to interpret bashrc correctly (ie, formatting is messed up, and it strips the color). However, when I run guake from the terminal, it works as expected.
[02:36] <DonSlice> Any ideas on what's going on?
[02:37] <litropy> Hi, peeps. When I'm searching for files using Unity's new "app chooser", it looks like my windows manager reboots.
[02:37] <litropy> it happens after I type in a few characters.
[02:38] <litropy> Also, this happens if I click an icon (still within the app chooser)
[02:38] <litropy> I guess we can still call it a launcher, per netbook-launcher]
[03:05] <C-S-B> jackd broken for anyone else?
[03:11] <crimsun_> C-S-B: what error message?
[03:11] <C-S-B> I stand corrected, ardour is fine, its when loading reaper within wine using winasio
[03:12] <crimsun_> ergh, wine
[03:13] <C-S-B> tell me about it
[03:13] <C-S-B> this was working in lucid however
[03:13] <bdogg> does anyone know what happened to the rythmbox applet in maverick beta?
[03:14] <C-S-B> its in the sound applet
[03:14] <C-S-B> ^
[03:14] <bdogg> so it was just removed and now the its the sound applet?
[03:15] <C-S-B> I think thats where it always was going to be
[03:15] <bdogg> :/ thats kinda dumb
[03:16] <C-S-B> how so>
[03:20] <bdogg> they should have just added the controls to the actual rythmbox applet
[03:20] <bdogg> instead of merging it with the sound applet
[03:20] <bdogg> but idk, i guess they have some reason for why the did things that way that im not aware of
[03:21] <crimsun_> the design is in mpt's blog
[03:21] <crimsun_> also, it's open source; feel free to add the controls to the actual rb applet
[03:21] <bdogg> lol, thats to advanced for me
[03:27] <Hew> Hi guys. I've upgraded to 10.10 on my desktop, but now it just drops me to a terminal login, or just gives a blank screen. I removed xorg.conf but that didn't fix it. Have similar problems been reported by others?
[03:30] <gnomefreak> Hew: nvidia?
[03:31] <Hew> gnomefreak, fglrx, but I removed xorg.conf in the hope it defaulted to ati/radeon
[03:31] <gnomefreak> Hew: ati not sure about but it is a good chance it is caused by the transition to x1.9
[03:32] <Hew> looking at Xorg.0.log it looks like there is a segfault.
[03:32] <gnomefreak> than that isnt the same
[03:33] <gnomefreak> does it say no screens found?
[03:33] <gnomefreak> much better :)
[03:35] <Hew> gnomefreak, I can't see that anywhere, I don't think so
[03:35] <Hew> "Segmentation fault at address (nil)"
[03:35] <Hew> "Caught signal 11 (Segmentation failt). Server aborting"
[03:35] <gnomefreak> Hew: it would be at teh bottom. file a bug on the segfault
[03:36] <gnomefreak> Hew: yeah you would see no screens found with that error as well
[03:39] <Hew> gnomefreak, I can't see a crash report in /var/crash for this (other than one for plymouthd). What's the proper way to report this, ubuntu-bug xorg?
[03:39] <gnomefreak> it seems the fixed nvidia-current was uploaded since yesterday morning
[03:40] <gnomefreak> Hew: what ati driver are you using?
[03:41] <gnomefreak> fglrx?
[03:41] <Hew> gnomefreak, I was using fglrx with 10.04, but I have removed xorg.conf as part of debugging this problem.
[03:41] <Hew> gnomefreak, I'd rather switch to ati/radeon to test with 10.10
[03:41] <gnomefreak> Hew: did you rename or remove?
[03:41] <Hew> rename
[03:42] <gnomefreak> Hew: ubuntu-bug xorg-driver-fglrx
[03:43] <Hew> gnomefreak, should I put xorg.conf back, or just leave things as-is?
[03:43] <gnomefreak> Hew: it doesnt matter what you want to use when filing a bug report. and i do think we still have nonfree ati driver in repos
[03:43] <Hew> ok
[03:43] <gnomefreak> Hew: leave it as is but you maay need to attach it to bug report. and let them know you renamed it
[03:45] <gnomefreak> Hew: if you use jockey to install drivers it will give you the option on what one you want
[03:46]  * gnomefreak be back
[03:47]  * Hew is reporting it now
[03:52] <gnomefreak> k
[03:55] <Hew> gnomefreak, bug 630599, thanks for your help
[03:55] <gnomefreak> np
[03:56] <gnomefreak> Hew: attach you xorg.conf file
[03:58] <gnomefreak> gfaim is not in english :(
[03:59] <gnomefreak> Please note that those recipes are written in French.
[03:59] <gnomefreak> of course why not in french
[04:00] <Nafai> I just upgraded to Maverick and whenever a window is maximized, the window controls and title bar aren't displayed.
[04:00] <Hew> gnomefreak, that's difficult because I'm reporting from my netbook, but I'll try
[04:00] <gnomefreak> Nafai: disable compiz
[04:00] <gnomefreak> see if that helps
[04:01] <Nafai> Yeah, I've tried turning off and on compiz and it makes no difference
[04:01] <gnomefreak> Nafai: are they covered by the menu bar?
[04:01] <Nafai> interesting
[04:01]  * gnomefreak not seeing this problem
[04:02] <Nafai> if I hit Control-Space, one of the options is "Bring titlebar onscreen"
[04:02] <Nafai> but it doesn't do anything
[04:02] <Nafai> nope, if I turn on "autohide" on my top panel, when it hides, it doesn't show the title bar
[04:03] <gnomefreak> i remember seeing the bug but IIRC it was compiz on <=10.04
[04:03]  * Nafai nods
[04:07] <vlcn> hmm
[04:08] <vlcn> I thought chrome was going to be the default in une 10.10?
[04:08] <vlcn> well, chromium I guess
[04:08] <gnomefreak> vlcn: not until 10.04 on UNR only
[04:08] <vlcn> what?
[04:09] <vlcn> isn't 10.04 the current release?
[04:09] <gnomefreak> vlcn: 10.10 in devel
[04:09] <vlcn> you lost me
[04:10] <gnomefreak> 10.10 is in development see /topic for more info
[04:10] <gnomefreak> this channel is for 10.10
[04:10] <vlcn> yes.  but you said not until 10.04
[04:10] <gnomefreak> 11.04
[04:10] <gnomefreak> sorry
[04:10] <vlcn> oh, okay
[04:18] <vlcn> is there any way to make chromium look less awkward?
[04:20] <Nafai> awkward?
[04:21] <vlcn> you either get the system theme and the tabs get pushed down(and typicallydon't match)
[04:21] <vlcn> or you are stuck with what chrome has built in which doesn't match
[04:23] <voidmage> vlcn: i don't understand, can you screenshot it?
[04:24] <vlcn> don't have any way to atm
[04:24] <Nafai> gnome-screenshot?
[04:24] <vlcn> not on that machine atm
[04:24] <Nafai> gnomefreak: figured out my issue, for some reason maximus was added to my startup programs
[04:56] <vlcn> hmm
[04:56] <vlcn> anyone know what happened to /usr/lib/X11/xorg.conf.d
[05:09] <DanaG> Say, if I want to try r600 gallium, how do I tell xorg to use /usr/lib/dri/gallium/r600_dri.so ?
[05:09] <DanaG>  ?
[05:10] <DanaG> er, somehow ended up with an extra '?'.
[05:22] <DanaG> hmm, timidity through pulseaudio is stuttery... the timing is not quite right.
[05:23] <DanaG> It's true even if I schedtool it to FIFO.
[05:26] <DanaG> Actually, it seems to get less laggy as time goes on.
[07:12] <bdogg> how do you enable accelerated composting on chrome?
[07:16] <bdogg> how do you enable accelerated composting on chrome in ubuntu?
[07:17] <bdogg> anyone?
[07:18] <SwedeMike> bdogg: it's bad form to repeat oneself and demand answers by filling the channel with "anyone?" etc.
[07:18] <bdogg> no one?
[07:20] <bdogg> -_
[07:20] <bdogg> -_-
[09:07] <omgh4x> anyone here?
[09:11] <papegaaij> hi all
[09:11] <papegaaij> i'm trying to install the 10.10 beta, but i'm having trouble with my Silicon Image 3114 SATA controller
[09:11] <papegaaij> the sata_sil driver is loaded, but none of the harddisks are detected
[09:13] <papegaaij> on top of that, the commandline is not very usable in graphics mode, because it is way too slow
[09:16] <papegaaij> i don't get it, the sata_sil driver is loaded, but the only scsi drive that shows up is the usb-stick i use for booting
[09:19] <gogeta> yo does 10.10 support booting btrfs directly or do i need a ext /boot
[09:19] <yofel> you need ext /boot for now
[09:20] <gogeta> 32 mb still a good size
[09:21] <yofel> if you only need one or two kernels then it should be enough
[09:21] <yofel> hm
[09:21] <yofel> I would recommend at least 50 though, the initrd images are pretty large here
[09:22] <gogeta> ok
[09:22] <gogeta> well i remove old kernels
[09:22] <gogeta> so 50mb should be a perfect buffer
[09:23] <gogeta> smack grub2 devs again
[09:23] <gogeta> lol
[09:23] <yofel> right, but here I get 4.3M vmlinuz + 2.3M system.map + 12M initrd per kernel, and additional ~7M for grub
[09:23] <yofel> 64bit
[09:23] <gogeta> systems been out sence 2008 and grub still has no support
[09:24] <gogeta> lol
[09:24] <yofel> I didn't follow btrfs that closely, but I think there's some licensing issue in the way
[09:24] <gogeta> figured id giv the unti btrfs+compression a try
[09:24] <papegaaij> hmmm, how do i install ubuntu if the installer doesn't detect my harddrives? :/
[09:25] <gogeta> its gpl lol
[09:25] <gogeta> it pretty mutch left off where riser fs stoped
[09:25] <papegaaij> i really don't get it, the right drivers are loaded, but the hdd's just don't show up
[09:26] <gogeta> its to overcome the shortcomings of ext4
[09:26] <yofel> papegaaij: does the kernel see them at least?
[09:26] <gogeta> for stuff like extra large drives snapshops compression support
[09:26] <papegaaij> yofel: they don't show up in dmesg
[09:26] <papegaaij> so, i guess not
[09:27] <yofel> papegaaij: then file a bug against the kernel with 'ubuntu-bug linux'
[09:27] <omgh4x> hey I installed xubuntu 10.10 on my comp with an ssd and it is ridiculously slow...did I do something wrong?
[09:27] <gogeta> i ear turning on compression makes the ssd fly
[09:27] <gogeta> hear
[09:28] <yofel> omgh4x: what's slow, the UI or the system in general?
[09:28] <omgh4x> well it took me two minutes to boot after post
[09:28] <yofel> ah, hm..
[09:28] <yofel> !bootchart
[09:28] <gogeta> i think the inital compression is slow
[09:29] <gogeta> after its fast
[09:29] <omgh4x> would it help by downgrading to the stable
[09:29] <gogeta> or use ext4
[09:29] <gogeta> btrfs is still very young
[09:29] <omgh4x> i am using ext4
[09:30] <gogeta> by defuly its btffs now
[09:30] <gogeta> defult
[09:30] <yofel> omgh4x: well, you can't really downgrade, can you try bootchart? might give a clue about what's taking so long
[09:30] <omgh4x> i can format it. im running on live now
[09:31] <yofel> well, that will certainly work if you want 10.04 back
[09:31] <omgh4x> plus when i set my bios to achi or whatever it is, it would not boot
[09:31] <gogeta> yea unless your running a netbook idont see any huge changes
[09:31] <gogeta> soiunds like it installed to btrfs
[09:31] <gogeta> it will convery a ext over
[09:32] <gogeta> convert
[09:32] <omgh4x> well I looked and it said it was ext4
[09:32] <yofel> it shouldn't I think, at least I'm running mav with ext4 fine
[09:33] <gogeta> if he used auto btrfs in defult
[09:33] <omgh4x> i just said "erase entire disk and install"
[09:33] <gogeta> yep
[09:33] <omgh4x> and ext4 was the first option
[09:33] <gogeta> btrfs
[09:34] <ginbuntu> I am running ubuntu 10.10 beta, can I install kubuntu-desktop on it and use the latest version of KDE?
[09:34]  * yofel checks his latest test installation
[09:35] <yofel> ginbuntu: should work
[09:36] <yofel> ginbuntu: here the installer used ext4 as default (tested 2 days ago)
[09:36] <yofel> er, gogeta ^
[09:36] <omgh4x> is there a way I can check my current filesystem to see if its btrfs?
[09:36] <omgh4x> im new to linux
[09:37] <yofel> omgh4x: try to mount it without defining the filesystem type and check the output of 'mount' after that
[09:45] <omgh4x> well I just tried the command mount and it returned "/dev/sda1 on / type ext4"
[09:45] <omgh4x> and some other stuff
[09:45] <omgh4x> does that help?
[09:46] <yofel> didn't you run a live disk right now? I think that's the live disk filesystem
[09:47] <omgh4x> on my drive now
[09:47] <yofel> ah, then you have ext4
[09:47] <omgh4x> ive switched so much i thought I was live lol
[09:47] <yofel> haha
[09:48] <omgh4x> thats the weird part becuase I though ext4 was optimized for ssds right?
[09:49] <yofel> actually btrfs is optimized for ssds, ext4 has trim support now, but you might need to add the 'discard' mount option to enable that
[09:49] <yofel> can't remember if it's on by default or not
[09:49] <gogeta> great
[09:49] <AlanBell> is Ubuntu One broken on Maverick?
[09:49] <gogeta> cant make it usn bootable
[09:50] <omgh4x> i think Im going to back to stable
[09:50] <omgh4x> and see if it works better
[09:50] <omgh4x> well I was never on stable so I hope Im not just going in circles
[09:52] <omgh4x> so should I put my bios to ahci because last time I did that, id did not even boot
[09:52] <omgh4x> right now its on ide
[10:10] <gogeta1> rrg
[10:11] <gogeta1> great how do i make this dammed thing bootable in windows
[10:13] <gogeta1> annoying
[10:16] <babai> i'm hit by this bug when trying to install maverick from usb https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lvm2/+bug/621951
[10:16] <babai> any solution to this?
[10:26] <papegaaij> yofel: I just found that the sata_sil driver seems to detect the 2 drives
[10:27] <papegaaij> at least, I think it is, it is logging this for 2 drives: ata8: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 310)
[10:27] <papegaaij> but then: ata8.00: NODEV after polling detection
[10:29] <papegaaij> perhaps it is related to http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1542223
[10:50] <gogeta1> well
[10:50] <gogeta1> i cant make this this usb boot
[10:52] <rom1v> hi
[10:52] <papegaaij> yofel: i think the bug has already been reported: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16606
[10:52] <rom1v> in ubuntu software center, how to filter "free software only"?
[10:55] <Katsuki> Anyone having applications un-installing themselves on reboot?
[10:56] <Katsuki> And does anyone know how to stop this?
[10:56] <yofel> papegaaij: interesting...
[10:56] <Katsuki> Program in question is Progress quest
[10:57] <papegaaij> yofel: it seems 2.6.35 isn't working very well with some sil_sata devices
[10:57] <yofel> right, reading the report right now
[11:00] <papegaaij> i don't think it's a good idea to upgrade when the hdd is not working :)
[11:01] <Katsuki> You two mind sharing this link your reading?
[11:02] <papegaaij> Katsuki: you mean this: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16606
[11:03] <Katsuki> ha ouch
[11:03] <Katsuki> I've got maverick working okay, guess I be lucky
[11:03] <papegaaij> you are also using the sata_sil driver?
[11:04] <papegaaij> it's pretty obvious when you are hitting this bug :)
[11:15] <papegaaij> i'm giving up on this
[11:15] <papegaaij> i guess i have to wait untill this is fixed in the kernel before installing 10.10
[11:19] <Katsuki> Just continue using the old kernel
[11:19] <Katsuki> Never mind I see its all versions 2.5
[11:21] <Dr_Willis> We are not dead.. we are just Pining for the Fjords!
[11:21] <Katsuki> So anyone here actually running 0.10
[11:21] <Dr_Willis> :)
[11:21] <Dr_Willis> Yes i am - on 2 machines
[11:21] <Katsuki> Restarted them yet?
[11:22] <Dr_Willis> several times
[11:22] <Dr_Willis> updated, upgraded, installed stuff.. rebooted...
[11:23] <Dr_Willis> one is a clean install. one is a Upgrade
[11:23] <Katsuki> No problems?
[11:23] <Dr_Willis> None past getting the installer/live cd  to actually work on my  nvidia systems
[11:26] <Katsuki> Well II'm running a Nvidia system did an upgraded from 10.04 no problems at all but it wont let me uninstall some applications or install some, and when I do it just reverts back after a reboot
[11:26] <Katsuki> Tbh I'm getting sick of uninstalling wine
[11:27] <Katsuki> and having to reinstall Progress quest
[11:27] <Katsuki> Of course it's not system critical just annoying
[11:51] <undifined> :) pleanty of updates again
[11:52] <undifined> http://paste.ubuntu.com/488694/
[11:54] <Dr_Willis> Ive not had any of those issues..
[11:54] <Dr_Willis> Hmm,, did UbuntuOne vanish in 10.10?
[11:56] <Dr_Willis> Tomboy notes seems connected and synced.. but the UbuntuOne directory dosent have the 'connect' button at the top. and no applet in my panel to show im connected
[12:01] <undifined> Dr_Willis, no, it is still installed
[12:02] <Dr_Willis> odd. not seeing the panel icon here.
[12:02] <Dr_Willis> perhaps i disabled that on autostart some how
[12:03] <Dr_Willis> wasent there supposed to be some 'sync firefox' via ubuntu one feature in the works?
[12:03] <undifined> yes it does that, but i sync chrome with google
[12:03] <undifined> i used xmarks before
[12:04] <undifined> which I recommend if you switch platforms often
[12:06] <penguin42> has anyone had something where the screen unlock refuses to take the return?  Had it a couple of time in the last few weeks
[12:21] <Dr_Willis> Ive not seen the issuie yet penguin42 . but i normally disable the loc
[12:23] <Alan> Does ubuntu dislike aptitude or something? I notece it's not in a default installation any more...
[12:24] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: It's a bit odd, it's only happened pretty rarely and it's taking keys as I type them
[12:25] <Dr_Willis> perhaps its usinbg enter to change focus..  i havent seen the issue.  but i always disable the screen lock feature alspo
[12:30] <penguin42> nod
[12:33] <Dr_Willis> Ok.. did they rename the icon/menu item for the 'hardware drivers' helper tool  Again!  :)
[12:34] <Dr_Willis> heh. now we got to correct all the guides/docs and factoids. :)
[12:34]  * penguin42 has 'additional drivers' now
[12:35] <Dr_Willis> This is like the 3rd name change I thik. :)
[12:35] <Dr_Willis> at least Now its at the Top of the menu
[12:36] <Dr_Willis> This is my upgrade box. so i am not sure how pristine that menu is on this system. I have lots  of extra non-default entries i bet
[12:37] <penguin42> nod, I have most of the planet installed on here
[12:37] <penguin42> my preferences menu has a few things that are duped because one is Gnome and the other is {kde, xthingy)
[12:37] <Dr_Willis> Yep - lots of those here also.
[12:38] <Dr_Willis> Gee.. i just noticed in gnome.. screensaver.. you still cant confgure much of anything..
[12:38] <Dr_Willis> Joys
[12:44]  * penguin42 lets this <--- machine upgrade while I have breakfast
[12:57] <Alan> so... what's the deal with aptitude?
[12:57] <Alan> any reason why it's not included any more?
[12:59] <magnetron> !info aptitude maverick
[12:59] <edgy> crimsun_: hi
[13:05] <undifined> Alan, aptitude seems to lead a life of its own, it wants to uninstall things i just installed
[13:07] <yofel> Alan: can't do anything you can't already do with apt-cache/get or dpkg, and thus wastes space on the CD
[13:08] <Alan> yofel: is it on the server CD?
[13:08] <penguin42> oh cool; I never did give in to people telling me I should learn aptitude over apt-{get/cache}
[13:09] <Alan> yofel: because aptitude is really useful as a user interface when you don't have X running, but in addition to that, it's actually less crap with dependencies etc.
[13:09] <yofel> Alan: afaik yes, but I'm not 100% sure
[13:09] <yofel> well, you can always install it, it's just not installed by default anymore on desktops
[13:09] <Alan> seems to know the difference between a manually installed and auto-installed package
[13:10] <yofel> well, I use aptitude myself, but if they say it wastes space on the CD then I'm ok with it not being there by default
[13:11] <Alan> How the hell can it take up that much space?
[13:12] <Alan> managed perfectly fine for the last few releases....
[13:12] <edgy> crimsun_: you remember when i installed the ppa for audio dev and the sound device disappear and you told you are going to fix it upstream then we continue debugging, then you went for something and we couldn't meet again?
[13:13] <Alan> ah well, after my bitching.... i do like some of the new stuff
[13:13] <Alan> like the "overlapped" installer...
[13:15] <undifined> hmmm, software center has a big memleak with me
[13:15] <RichieRich> saludos amig
[13:16] <RichieRich> hi
[13:16] <undifined> :)
[13:16] <Crashbit> RichieRich: english :)
[13:16] <Alan> also, i approve of the checkbox to enable multiverse
[13:20] <Alan> What does ubuntu keep putting on the CD btw?
[13:20] <Alan> because i've noticed over the last few releases more and more apps disappearing
[13:20] <Alan> for example, i swear it was only 2 relases ago that GIMP was on the CD....
[13:20] <Alan> Here's a pro tip - stop trying to fit OO.o on the CD
[13:21] <Alan> It's crap anyway
[13:21] <Alan> :P
[13:21] <TheInfinity> Alan: gimp is just for some specialists and they had problems to get it on cd. so it was removed.
[13:22] <TheInfinity> OOo is standard software, almost everybode needs an integrated office suite, so it will stay there :p
[13:22] <Alan> TheInfinity: so is remote desktop viewer / terminal services client
[13:22] <Alan> so drop those
[13:22] <Alan> TheInfinity: methinks abiword and gnumeric are smaller
[13:22] <TheInfinity> abiword and gnomeric does not have a presentation editor
[13:23] <TheInfinity> *do
[13:23] <Alan> so?
[13:23] <Alan> that's what the software centre is for
[13:23] <Alan> seems to be good enough to tell people to go there for an image editor
[13:24] <Alan> do you think more people make presentations than edit images in some way?
[13:24] <AlanBell> o/ Alan
[13:24] <Alan> ???
[13:24] <Alan> is that a slap or a "high-five same-name!"
[13:24] <Alan> ?
[13:24] <AlanBell> high five
[13:24] <Alan> woo
[13:24] <Alan> ugh
[13:24] <Alan> OO.o
[13:24] <Alan> such a foul beast...
[13:25] <Alan> It can't even draw native widgets nicely...
[13:25] <Alan> it's an eyesore
[13:25] <Alan> why couldn't they have started from scratch on a good office suite instead of assuming working from something that existed would give better results....
[13:26] <TheImp> Alan: its just a decision of how many ppl need a specific software. and an office suite is just used much more often then a complicated image editor
[13:26] <Alan> TheImp: then provide a simple image editor
[13:26] <Alan> there are a few around
[13:26] <TheImp> Alan: which will be done some days if theres a really good one - most are very beta atm.
[13:27] <Alan> I get the feeling there are a few "core" packages that you feel MUST be kept, and they keep getting bigger, and you keep wanting to fit onto a CD
[13:27] <Alan> TheImp: *cough*gwibber*cough*
[13:27] <TheInfinity> imho OOo is a must-kept, just like evolution or firefox.
[13:27] <Alan> but those 3 keep getting bigger
[13:28] <Alan> and pushing all the useful stuff off
[13:28] <Alan> give up
[13:28] <Alan> make a 900MB DVD image
[13:28] <TheInfinity> there is a dvd image.
[13:28] <Alan> a VERY big DVD image
[13:28] <Alan> IIRC
[13:28] <undifined> Alan I approve of OOo, but for the future Orcale is heading, a fork might be wise that does away of included java / replaced with python
[13:28] <Alan> undifined: why do you approve of OOo?
[13:28] <Alan> it's ugly, it's slow, and it's ugle
[13:28] <yofel> well, the current DVD is the live and alternate disk merged + more language packs
[13:29]  * penguin42 someone does need to keep hitting OOo until it isn't vast
[13:29] <undifined> it got into existence as microsoft held monopoly on office
[13:29] <TheInfinity> Alan: its the only well integrated office suite linux has.
[13:29]  * yofel notes koffice
[13:29] <Alan> yofel: does it install any more stuff than the standard CD?
[13:29] <Alan> or is it just a bigger collection of obsolete package versions?
[13:29] <TheInfinity> yofel: ... which is kde ;)
[13:29] <yofel> not sure, haven't tested that
[13:30] <yofel> TheInfinity: you said 'linux' ;)
[13:30] <Alan> TheInfinity: yeah, shame isn't it?
[13:30] <TheInfinity> (ok, i should have written gnome + linux has ;) )
[13:30] <TheInfinity> Alan: yea. but i cant do anything against this :)
[13:30] <Alan> out of the spreadsheet apps available on linux, OOo is the only one that doesn't choke on a large conversion from CSV
[13:31] <Alan> kspread takes a year and then dies
[13:31] <Alan> gnumeric is fast, but then hangs for simple things like changing the colour of a column
[13:31] <Alan> OOo manages to chug through it
[13:31] <penguin42> its finally got rid of the 65k row limit in OOo
[13:31] <penguin42> Alan: Chug is the word though
[13:31] <Alan> not sure about that
[13:31] <TheInfinity> Alan: OOo is a nice peace of software at all. its just a bit slow.
[13:31] <penguin42> IMHO hte problem with OOo is it's just so damn big that no one can just open it up and fix something that is broken
[13:33] <Alan> oh dear, are ubuntu encouraging people to pay for DVD decoder software now?
[13:33] <Alan> there's a scary thought
[13:34] <undifined> Alan, where ?
[13:35] <Alan> in the software center
[13:35] <Alan> fluendo DVD player...
[13:35] <lucidfox> Hmm
[13:36] <lucidfox> gnome-terminal doesn't paste text from epiphany browser views
[13:36] <lucidfox> I wonder if it's a gnome-terminal bug or a webkit bug
[13:36] <yofel> wasn't it planned from the very beginning to make software-center support payed software too?
[13:36] <yofel> the very first versions were called software-store after all
[13:37] <undifined> Alan I thin that is more of a way for canonical to make some money
[13:38] <undifined> the fluendo mp3 codecs i have installed are free
[13:38] <yofel> right
[13:38] <penguin42> Don't they ship a small part of fluendo for the ubuntu music store for playing MP3s
[13:38] <undifined> and everything plays fine with gstreamer
[15:59] <Daekdroom> are libbrasero0-media and rhythmbox-plugin-cdrecorder packages meant to be removed?
[16:00] <Daekdroom> *libbrasero-media0
[16:09] <vish> anyone know the bug# for the help garbled text?
[16:16] <vish> hehe!  Bug #630671
[16:19]  * nigelb blinks
[16:25] <Ian_corne> $ yelp
[16:25] <Ian_corne> Could not initialize gecko!
[16:25] <Ian_corne> that vish ? :p
[16:25] <Daekdroom> I loved the bug name
[16:25] <penguin42> I saw that as a separate bug; but I wonder if it's actually the cause of the disalaying numbered blocks instead of text
[16:25] <Daekdroom> It tells everything
[16:33] <vish> Ian_corne: do you know the main bug# ?
[16:33] <vish> there must be a bug about it somewhere..
[16:33] <Ian_corne> I've reported it myself too
[16:33] <Ian_corne> sec
[16:34] <Ian_corne> can't see it atm
[16:35] <vish> :(
[16:35] <Ian_corne> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/574418
[16:36] <vish> Ian_corne: awesome thanks :)
[16:36] <Ian_corne> It's the second one
[16:36] <Ian_corne> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp/+bug/565893
[16:36] <Ian_corne> first one is a dupliocate
[16:53] <Dr_Willis> Hmm. I notice an issue every so often, if you select that 'me menu' at the top right , where your name and chat account settings are set. it can sort of get stuck and hangs the whole system. It doset close the menu if you click out side of the menu item. I have to hit the escape key a few times and try other things and eventually it frees up
[16:56] <st__> does maverick support unicode usernames now?
[16:57] <st__> and what a stupid design decision was to make installation parallel, now even mouse is irresponsible while it copies filse
[16:58] <penguin42> st__: Hmm interesting - I thought it was a great decision; for me the mouse isn't stuck - however you should report the bug about the mouse being stuck during the installation
[16:58] <Alan> st__: are you running on a single-core/single-thread CPU?
[16:59] <st__> yes
[16:59] <Alan> I found it to be laggy in virtualbox with only 1 virtual CPU, i should imagine it would be less so on a machine that can run more than 1 thread simultaneously...
[16:59] <penguin42> it needs to be niced right down
[17:00] <penguin42> or maybe not run in parallel on low spec machines
[17:00] <Alan> yeah
[17:00] <Alan> it makes sense if you assume at the very least a single-core hyperthreading machine
[17:00] <Alan> (i.e. a netbook)
[17:00] <penguin42> is the installer still ubiquity?
[17:01] <st__> it's called ubuquity in launchpad
[17:02] <st__> and the language list at first screen is unsorted
[17:02] <penguin42> st__: Report them
[17:08] <lubuntu_userrrr> Are there any plans to update maverick's openoffice to 3.3 when it is released?
[17:09] <st__> of course not
[17:09] <penguin42> lubuntu_userrrr: I doubt it at this stage
[17:09] <st__> the freese was last month
[17:10] <lubuntu_userrrr> I mean after the maverick's release - as a post release update?
[17:10] <st__> no, the app versions are final
[17:10] <penguin42> lubuntu_userrrr: I doubt it, you normally get a particular version in a release and it sticks with it
[17:12] <lubuntu_userrrr> Usually ubuntu devs do not update major releases of openoffice (3.2.1->3.3), They do only small updates (3.2.1->3.2.2), but office workers sometimes really need these new versions. Sometimes it is even showstopper - like the fixed copy-paste in cyrillic for 3.3.
[17:13] <lubuntu_userrrr> I really hope that openooffice goes into the "app repository" and it becomes active during the maverick cycle.
[17:13] <Dr_Willis> Openoffice.. people either seem to Live in it... or never use it.. :)
[17:15] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: No I don't think that's true
[17:16] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: I think there are the people who never use it, the people who just write an occasional letter, people who read other peoples docs/presentations and then the guys who actively write big docs/presentations
[17:16] <lubuntu_userrrr> Dr_Willis: for me it is either OpenOffice, or MS Office. Or unemployment :-(
[17:16] <Dr_Willis> Last i used it was... to make Rummage Sale Signs :)   i Did use the Ubuntu Font  to show my Ubuntu suport.
[17:17] <Dr_Willis> What is the size of Openoffice on the cd now?    That 'fits on a cd' goal - is getting very tight.
[17:17] <Dr_Willis> !info openoffice
[17:17] <lubuntu_userrrr> The first thing I do after installing ubuntu is "sudo apt-get install openoffice.org"
[17:18] <st__> ubuntu has no light text editor sadly, so we are forced into OO.o bagamuth
[17:18] <Dr_Willis> Err.. its installed by default?
[17:18] <Dr_Willis> lightweight word processor. i tend to use abiword.
[17:19] <st__> abiword is buggy abandoned mess
[17:19] <penguin42> st__: Well there is gedit/gnome-text-editor
[17:19] <magnetron> st__: no lightweight text editor, are you serious?
[17:19] <penguin42> st___: But I guess you mean something more than really a text editor
[17:19] <lubuntu_userrrr> Plenty of lightwight editors -emacs, vim, abiword, gedit, nano...
[17:19] <st__> gedit has no formatting/styles capabilities
[17:19] <Dr_Willis> whats why i said word processor....
[17:20] <magnetron> geser: no, but it has text editor capabilities...
[17:20] <Dr_Willis> cant say ive noticed any issues with abiword.. but i tend to use it even less then i use openoffice theser days
[17:21] <st__> all rats jumped the abiword ship so it's bugs never'll get fixed or functionality improved
[17:21] <geser> magnetron: huh? wrong highlight?
[17:21] <lubuntu_userrrr> Dr_Willis: Abi is fine for a simple letters, but complex formatting tends to breake the files. Not always, but it happens.
[17:21] <Dr_Willis> I recall on BeOS (somehow) their text editor could do formating and color/fonts.. still not sure  how they did that.
[17:21] <magnetron> geser: soz
[17:21] <Dr_Willis> and the text files were still simple text files. :)
[17:22] <st__> You cannot print something in monospaced font with broken left edge and say it's a document
[17:22] <st__> *right edge
[17:22] <Dr_Willis> Yes you can,.. did so for years in college.. when we had typewriters..
[17:22] <Dr_Willis> :)
[17:23]  * Dr_Willis recalls a high tech typewriter that actually had a parallel port and could work as a printer
[17:23] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: I had a typewriter where there was a kit that got soldered across the keyboard matrix to give it serial
[17:23] <Dr_Willis> penguin42:  i was going to mention that.. but i figured no one would belive me...
[17:23] <Dr_Willis> :)
[17:24] <Dr_Willis> penguin42:  i recall seeingt the kits.. but never made one.
[17:24] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: We ran one at my Dads chemist shop for a few years printing labels
[17:24] <Dr_Willis> Back when 'fonts' came on fancy 'wheels' or 'balls' you put in the typewriter
[17:25] <Dr_Willis> penguin42:  i Still have a few 100000 dot matrix address label box's :) but no printer to use them in
[17:25] <Dr_Willis> they dont feed to good into my laser.
[17:25] <st__> and why there's no console text editor with text selection or menus?
[17:26] <lubuntu_userrrr> st__: emacs
[17:27] <penguin42> st__: The problem there is you have to choose what file format to edit
[17:27] <Dr_Willis> st__:  'fits on a single cd' limit is why theres none by default.
[17:28] <Dr_Willis> there are some decent console text eitors out other then vi and emacs. :) 'efte' (or fte) is nice. i recall another that was sort of a clone of the old dos edit. but i forget its name.
[17:28] <st__> btw installer hanged lol
[17:29] <st__> i would send bugreport if knew what to report
[17:30] <charlie-tca> Dr_Willis: I still have an old okidata 180 printer; uses the continuous feed paper
[17:30] <Dr_Willis> charlie-tca:  i think i have a printer or 2 around.. but finding ribbons these days. :) actually im not even sure which printers i have - even have a parallel port any more either
[17:31]  * penguin42 has an FX-80 over there --->
[17:31] <Dr_Willis> good old 'epson'
[17:31] <charlie-tca> I hand wound the last two ribbons
[17:31] <Dr_Willis> all the big name companies i rembner... and now where are they.
[17:31] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: Well Epson is still fairly big in printers
[17:32] <st__> epson still does expensive printers
[17:32] <st__> *makes
[17:33] <Dr_Willis> its amazing how cheap they can make printers these days also.
[17:33] <Dr_Willis> my First laser printer $400, last one i got.. under $80
[17:33]  * penguin42 must buy a new printer, the current one is nearly out of toner
[17:34] <Dr_Willis> This one is still on the 'demo' toner.. it said it was out after 400 pages.. but aparently theres this clear window.. you put black tape over it.. and viola its still printing
[17:35] <penguin42> what does the window do?
[17:36] <Dr_Willis> its a sight glass to show if toner is low it seems.. laser or somthing shines through it inside..
[17:36] <penguin42> odd
[17:36] <Dr_Willis> one on each side of the toner cart.
[17:36] <Alan> Hmm, that's interesting
[17:37] <Alan> the responsiveness sucks during the formatting phase of the install
[17:37] <Dr_Willis> yes. i though it seemed odd.. and very.. picky.. the thing still had toner in it.. and it said it was empty after i had cleaned a jam.
[17:37] <Alan> but it's fine through the rest...
[17:38] <st__> i thought installer does log everything in vt4, but it doesn't in this version...
[17:42] <Dr_Willis> installer was spamming 'usb somthing not found...' over and over when i installed.. and booted..  a update/upgrade fixed it however.
[17:42] <Dr_Willis> and i dident even have extra usb gizmos plugged in.
[17:43] <sebsebseb> Hi
[17:44] <Dr_Willis> !hi
[17:45] <st__> and i even cannot type my city name
[17:46] <st__> because keyboard is english and cannot be switched
[17:46] <Dr_Willis> It actually guessed  where i was at and got it right.. well close.
[17:47] <st__> it didn't for me
[17:47] <st__> because get gmt from net and subtract it from local time is so f... difficult
[17:48] <Dr_Willis> Here in Indiana this one state has like 3 (or more) places in differnt timezones.. heh
[17:49] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: Yeh but that's a bug in the state legislature....
[17:49] <Dr_Willis> Its a bug in peoples brains...
[17:49] <penguin42> Dr_Willis: Which package.....
[17:49] <Dr_Willis> One county in the Middle of the state decided to not  switch timezones.. :)
[17:50] <Dr_Willis> I can at least understand the places near Chichago wanting to stay on Chichago time.,
[17:50] <Dr_Willis> or  other places near major cities that dont change.
[17:52] <Dr_Willis> well night all.. 3rd shift worker here.. its bed time
[17:57] <DonSlice> When I run guake from the terminal, it works as expected... but opening guake through the menu causes it to strip colours and mess up formatting, and will not allow me to run console programs (mocp, testdisk, etc). Anyone have an idea what's going on?
[17:58] <gnomefreak> DonSlice: something like that you really should file a bug
[18:00] <DonSlice> Hm. Okay... thanks
[18:01] <st__> lol suddently installer lost its GTK theme
[18:02] <bdogg> hey, does anyone know how to use tags in chrome dev, to enable extra features?
[18:02] <bdogg> like in how you do in windows
[18:05] <Alan> Hmm
[18:05] <Alan> the software center no longer searches package names
[18:05] <Alan> it did in Lucid
[18:05] <Alan> why?
[18:06] <st__> OK it hanged for a second time
[18:06] <badp> What package should I file keyboard bugs against?
[18:07] <badp> (Using the volume control on my external keyboard stops left clicks from being registered until I plug out the external keyboard.)
[18:07] <Alan> oh
[18:07] <badp> (oh, and hello.)
[18:07] <gnomefreak> depends on where the bug is but i would say either ubuntu or gnome-applets
[18:07] <gnomefreak> gnome-applets
[18:07] <Alan> Also, why does ubuntu insist on shipping with that the horrible "slight" subpixel hinting enabled?
[18:07] <badp> so I'll issue "ubuntu-bug gnome-applets"?
[18:08] <Alan> it's UGLY ugly UGLY!!
[18:08] <gnomefreak> badp: yes without the "
[18:08] <bdogg> how do i register my nickname on empathy
[18:09] <gnomefreak> bdogg: for what?
[18:09] <bdogg> on IRC
[18:09] <bdogg> on here
[18:09] <bdogg> how do i register
[18:09] <gnomefreak> !freenode | bdogg
[18:10] <gnomefreak> it has nothing to do with the client
[18:10] <bdogg> the ./msg command says its not recongnized
[18:10] <gnomefreak> bdogg: its the .
[18:10] <bdogg> im following the intructions here :http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[18:10] <gnomefreak> remove the . from it
[18:10] <bdogg> yeah i know aobut the period
[18:11] <bdogg> i did it to show you guys
[18:11] <gnomefreak> than why dod you put it there. what reason for it?
[18:11] <bdogg> i though it would show up as a command if i didnt
[18:11] <gnomefreak> you can show us /msg bleh
[18:12] <bdogg> when i type "/msg" i get this "Unknown command; see /help for the available commands"
[18:12] <gnomefreak> bdogg: did you run /msg nickserv register password email?
[18:13] <gnomefreak> bdogg: you do that once you are logged on with the name you want to use
[18:13] <gnomefreak> bdogg: /msg alone does nothing
[18:13] <bdogg> yeah, it just doesn’t recognize the /msg command i guess
[18:14] <gnomefreak> bdogg: /msg does not hold anything you need to use it with options.
[18:14] <bdogg> not working with options either
[18:14] <gnomefreak> bdogg: just type /msg nickserv register password email
[18:15] <gnomefreak> type that replace password with the one you want and replace email will your email address
[18:15] <bdogg> Output: Unknown command; see /help for the available commands
[18:15] <gnomefreak> bdogg: for further help please see #freenode
[18:15] <bdogg> Is it because im using Empathy IM?
[18:15] <gnomefreak> no
[18:16] <gnomefreak> the client has *nothing* to do with freenode commands
[18:16] <mikebeecham> hi guys...I was thinking about upgrading to Maverick....has the X crash issue been sorted now?
[18:16] <bdogg> nope
[18:16] <mikebeecham> last time I tried, X was crashing, and I had to reinstall
[18:16] <bdogg> oh okay i got it
[18:16] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: ati crash is still around or is new nvidia-current should be fixed
[18:17] <mikebeecham> I'm using nvidia
[18:17] <JoshuaL> no problems with nvidia here :)
[18:17] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: could have used TTY instead of reinstalling
[18:17] <mikebeecham> and have installed 195.36.24
[18:17] <mikebeecham> gnome, not that competant on that side of things
[18:17] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: well your crash means nothing. you need to file a bug report on it
[18:17] <mikebeecham> I did go into tty and try to resolve it
[18:17] <mikebeecham> gnome
[18:17] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: that is not the fixed version
[18:18] <mikebeecham> dont worry about the crash now, that was a couple of weeks ago
[18:18] <mikebeecham> all is good
[18:18] <mikebeecham> but before I go ahead, I want to ensure the X issue is resolved
[18:18] <JoshuaL> when i change from channel in xchat it lags :(
[18:19] <tracy69> hello when trying to  boot ubuntu im getting just command prompt and when startx im getting message no screens found how to sort it out ???
[18:19] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: fixed nvidia-current is 256.53-0ubuntu1
[18:19] <mikebeecham> cool gnomefreak thanks
[18:19] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: depends on what X issue you are thinking of. the ABI is fixed
[18:20] <gnomefreak> tracy69: nvidia?
[18:20] <mikebeecham> not sure...when it happend I used my windows machine to get into this channel, and the X Issue was part of the channel topic, so I guess it was pretty bad
[18:20] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: that is fixed
[18:20] <tracy69> ati
[18:21] <mikebeecham> gnomefreak, great
[18:21] <gnomefreak> mikebeecham: it was trransition into x 1.9 that caused the ABI to be read when it should have been ignored
[18:21] <tracy69> i know i need to fix xorg dont know how
[18:21] <mikebeecham> then I will upgrade with confidence
[18:21] <gnomefreak> tracy69: another user had this issue yesterday i asked him to file bug but i dont recall igf he did. please filea  bug
[18:22] <bdogg> have they fixed the issue with gdeb get?
[18:22] <gnomefreak> tracy69: not something you can do on your own
[18:22] <tracy69> file bug?
[18:22] <gnomefreak> bdogg: never heard of an issue with gdeb
[18:22] <gnomefreak> tracy69: yes file a bug report
[18:22] <tracy69> u file bug i want to boot up ubuntu
[18:23] <tracy69> and how i have to file bug if i cant boot up ubuntu ?
[18:23] <bdogg> yeah on beta, at least for me, i cant intall debs with the gdeb, only through dkg -i command
[18:23] <tracy69> file bug form command prompt?
[18:23] <gnomefreak> tracy69: well you should have another operating system other than maverick
[18:23] <Ian_corne> or the know-how to fix this :p
[18:24] <tracy69> well heheheh they say on youtube ubuntu is better than windows and you asking me i should have other OS ?
[18:24] <tracy69> why?
[18:24] <gnomefreak> if you cant file a bug do not use devel versions of ubuntu
[18:24] <gnomefreak> tracy69: thyan install lucid and stick with that
[18:24] <bdogg> yeah but you are using the beta
[18:24] <bdogg> its GOING to be buggy
[18:24] <Ian_corne> I sense troll
[18:24] <gnomefreak> bdogg: i have 6 PCs
[18:25] <tracy69> youre very helpfull heheheheh gnomefreak
[18:25] <bdogg> :gnomefreak why are you telling me this?
[18:25] <gnomefreak> each with 2 hard drives, i have a few back up PCs
[18:25] <gnomefreak> i wasnt
[18:25] <gnomefreak> i was telling tracy69 since he/she decided to put maverck on a production box
[18:25] <gnomefreak> with out a back up
[18:26] <penguin42> tracy69: Just stick with the release version until you get experienced
[18:26] <tracy69> penguin42,  so youre experienced
[18:26] <tracy69> tell me how to sort it out
[18:26] <gnomefreak> X will be fixed around the time maverick is released
[18:26] <Ian_corne> tracy69: apt-get source xorg
[18:27] <gnomefreak> Ian_corne: oh that will help him
[18:27] <Ian_corne> If he wants it fixed now
[18:27] <gnomefreak> what is he going to do with the source?
[18:27] <Ian_corne> at this moment
[18:27] <Ian_corne> and not file a bug report
[18:27] <Ian_corne> he'll have to code :D
[18:28] <gnomefreak> Ian_corne: he acnt use a terminal where does that make you think he can fix the source than rebuild it
[18:28] <gnomefreak> if you cant file a bug reinstall lucid
[18:28] <Ian_corne> gnomefreak: i know, i was just trolling him back
[18:28] <tracy69> Ian_corne,  what are you talking about ?
[18:30] <gnomefreak> ok look X is broken for people, it will be fixed as fast as it can however if your bug is different than normal X bug you need to file one or hope it gets fixed by release. this is not something you can fix
[18:30] <gnomefreak> if you feel that is too hard or dont want to wait install lucid and wait until final release of maverick
[18:31] <gnomefreak> as long as you can boot into a TTY you can do upgrades
[18:31] <gnomefreak> but do not expect it to be fixed now
[18:32] <Alan> .... is it me, or do you not get asked for a computer name any more?
[18:32] <gnomefreak> oh and btw you can always use vesa if you knwo what you are doing
[18:32] <gnomefreak> Alan: i did
[18:32] <gnomefreak> last week but i did
[18:35] <Rods_Tiger> I?m installing meerkat from a live usb and I?ve pressed ?forward? at ?preparing to install ubuntu? and nothing happens
[18:36] <charlie-tca> Alan: depends on which image you use.
[18:38] <Alan> charlie-tca: the desktop image
[18:38] <charlie-tca> Don't think it does ask.
[18:38] <gnomefreak> Rods_Tiger: sounds like a md5 mismatch
[18:38] <Alan> I always always change mine, so the only thing i can think of is that i wasn't prompet.d...
[18:39] <Alan> which is a bit crap... why take that out?
[18:39] <Alan> especially when it's NOT a simple thing to change for any random user
[18:39] <gnomefreak> they can not remove the computername choice. it has to be something you choose
[18:40] <gnomefreak> you can choose even
[18:40] <Rods_Tiger> aha
[18:40] <Alan> gnomefreak: well it doesn't appear to be any more...
[18:41] <gnomefreak> Alan: are you sure the md5 matches? you used a usb right?
[18:41] <gnomefreak> there are a bunch of bugs on it as of bate release
[18:41] <gnomefreak> beta even
[18:41] <Alan> yes, but i think "omitted from the UI" isn't a bug, it's a flawed design choice
[18:42] <Alan> it's not asked for in the installer at all
[18:42] <gnomefreak> what makes you think it was removed on purpose?
[18:42] <Alan> because it's not the kind of thing you accidentally remove?
[18:42] <gnomefreak> the cd and dvd images still have it
[18:42] <Alan> funny, i just got the beta CD image
[18:42] <Alan> and created a USB installer from it
[18:43] <Alan> since it's using the same installer
[18:43] <Alan> it's the same UI
[18:43] <gnomefreak> and yet i tell you usb installers are broken
[18:43] <Alan> ...
[18:43] <Alan> gnomefreak: in what possible way can a USB vs. non-USB installer cause a field to be missing from the installer UI?
[18:43] <gnomefreak> you should really look up the bugs in LP
[18:43] <Alan> it's the same program
[18:44] <Alan> also, installing from the CD didn't show it either
[18:44] <gnomefreak> Alan: you are not using usb creater?
[18:44] <Alan> (using the ISO in a virtual machine)
[18:44] <Alan> gnomefreak: i am using USB creator
[18:44] <gnomefreak> Alan: and i just finnished telling you it is broken
[18:45] <gnomefreak> what part of that do you not understand
[18:45] <gnomefreak> it is not the same image as a normal one
[18:45] <Alan> gnomefreak: and i just finished attempting to tell you that the kind of bug i'm describing is something that cannot possibly be due to what you are saying
[18:46] <gnomefreak> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/627672 may or may not be your bug
[18:46] <gnomefreak> you need to look at teh bugs since it is a good chance yours has been reported already
[18:46] <Alan> gnomefreak: absolutely not
[18:46] <gnomefreak> Alan: hint... start looking through the bugs
[18:48] <gnomefreak> if you cant find one report one. this is something that needs to be fixed if it is not a local bug
[18:50] <gnomefreak> who was it with guake bug?
[18:52] <gnomefreak> oh well i had bad new for him anyway
[18:52] <Alan> gnomefreak: btw, why on earth are you so insistent that it's a usbcreator bug even though I said it exists in the CD installer too?
[18:52] <gnomefreak> Alan: because it is still there on the text installer
[18:52] <Alan> ... that's got absolutely nothing to do with it
[18:53] <gnomefreak> Alan: both installers are the same in the aspect of naming a pc
[18:53] <Alan> no, both installers use the same default name
[18:53] <Alan> that says absolutely nothing about whether or not they should act the same
[18:53] <Alan> in terms of what they ask you
[18:54] <Alan> the alternate installer and ubiquity are different programs
[18:54] <Alan> now running ubiquity from the CD and from the USB drive are exactly the same thing
[18:54] <Alan> the problem isn't in creating a USB installer
[18:54] <Alan> the problem is in ubiquity
[18:54] <gnomefreak> Alan: what is the default name of it and why dont you just change it. my default with Ubuntu i changed it as always during the installer
[18:54] <Alan> gnomefreak: and so do i
[18:55] <gnomefreak> Alan: you dont think one is the same as other just with UI?
[18:55] <Alan> my point is, which you've somehow completely missed, is that IT DOESNT ASK YOU IN THE INSTALLER ANY MORE
[18:55] <gnomefreak> you do know that the background for both is d-i
[18:55] <kklimonda> seriously, wtf? It takes 10 seconds to switch between virtual desktops o.O
[18:55] <Alan> gnomefreak: do you write software? at all?
[18:55] <gnomefreak> Alan: i do not in last month but yes
[18:55] <kklimonda> /b 10
[18:56] <Alan> gnomefreak: then your naivity is really quite surprising
[18:56] <gnomefreak> Alan: i am also a mozilla maintainer
[18:56] <Alan> matters not one bit that they share a backend
[18:56] <charlie-tca> Alan: Then it is a bug
[18:56] <Alan> if the UI is different, the UI is different
[18:56] <gnomefreak> Alan: the base of all the installers are d-i
[18:57] <Alan> gnomefreak: that still doesn't imply that what's in the alternate installer will be in the GTK installer
[18:57] <Alan> the GTK installer has always been different in one way or another
[18:57] <gnomefreak> file a bug, but you are missing the point. the problem you are having you should have across all installers
[18:57] <Alan> charlie-tca: i hope so - given my experience with this release so far, i'm worried it might be a design choice
[18:57] <gnomefreak> the UI is not anything but a UI
[18:58] <gnomefreak> it is a bug not a feature
[18:58] <Alan> gnomefreak: no, you're missing the point, there is nothing that implies that it should be the same in both installers
[18:58] <Alan> apart from the two being developed in parallel to hopefully have the same features
[18:58] <gnomefreak> Alan: both installers give the same options one is just prettier than the other
[18:58] <Alan> gnomefreak: but i've just categorically proved that they don't both give the same options
[18:59] <Alan> gnomefreak: do yourself a favour, actually run through both installers side-by-side
[18:59] <gnomefreak> Alan: becasue on ehas the bug and the other doesnt?
[18:59] <charlie-tca> gnomefreak: did they stop using ubiquity for the desktop cd?
[18:59] <gnomefreak> nope
[19:00] <Alan> gnomefreak: for what you say to be correct, both UIs would have to be generated from the same definition
[19:00] <Alan> they can't be if one is missing stuff that the other one has
[19:01] <gnomefreak> Alan: ncurses and ubiquity are different and always will be but that is where the differences start the engine for both is d-i
[19:01] <Alan> You appear to be using the alternate CD and assuming that everything you see is the same in the desktop CD
[19:01] <Alan> gnomefreak: and what makes you think that in any way enforces what's in the UI?
[19:01] <Alan> it doesn't
[19:01] <gnomefreak> Alan: nope didnt say that. what i said was it is abug nothing bore
[19:02] <kklimonda> is it really?
[19:02] <Alan> gah
[19:02] <gnomefreak> i have never had a UI give me choices. i have only seen a ui give you a choice being pretty
[19:02] <Alan> for somebody who's apparently a "mozilla maintainer" you're full of shit
[19:02] <Alan> I'm going to report a bug against ubiquity
[19:03] <Alan> and hope to god it's not a feature
[19:03] <gnomefreak> might really want to pick a better choice of words
[19:03] <Alan> i might
[19:03] <IdleOne> !guidelines | Alan
[19:03] <Alan> but you're kinda pissing me off
[19:03] <Alan> Yeah yeah, i know
[19:03] <gnomefreak> Alan: i told you to start with "file a bug"
[19:03] <Alan> lets keep it clean and friendly
[19:03] <IdleOne> Alan: then I suggest you step back from the computer and relax but don't take it out on us
[19:04] <Alan> IdleOne: just on the person that's perpetuating it
[19:04] <Alan> but anyway
[19:04] <Alan> yes
[19:04] <Alan> away from here with me
[19:04]  * Alan -> somewhere else, via launchpad
[19:09] <vish> Alan: did you follow the installer fully? :)  it asks the user name but only later.
[19:09] <vish> after we select the install now..
[19:09] <Alan> vish: yes i did, but wehre it asks for username, it doesn't ask for the hostname
[19:09] <Alan> it doesn't ask for the hostname anywhere
[19:09] <Alan> it just uses <username>-laptop
[19:09] <vish> hmm , host name!
[19:09]  * vish tries to remember
[19:10] <Alan> i've been through the beta installer 4 times now
[19:10] <Alan> once from USB, twice from CD
[19:10] <vish> yeah , maybe not asked.. i cant remember either..
[19:10] <Alan> every time, it's used the default hostname without any chance to change it
[19:18] <st__> installer background looks crap, will it be fixed in dinal version?
[19:26] <kklimonda> Alan: I don't think it's a bug, rather a design choice
[19:27] <Alan> kklimonda: yeah, that kind annoys me
[19:27] <kklimonda> you can use text installer if you need more control
[19:27] <Alan> kklimonda: but it's one damned field
[19:27] <Alan> what was wrong with the way the lucid installer did it?
[19:27] <Alan> it's there, pre-filled to the default
[19:28] <Alan> now everybody has no choice but to go around with computers called alan-laptop and fred-laptop and ... etc. etc.
[19:28] <Alan> especially because there is no user-friendly way to change it after installation
[19:28] <st__> that's happens when people do something for free
[19:29] <penguin42> Alan: Hmm that's a fair bug to add
[19:29] <kklimonda> Alan: I'm pretty sure that they will add an easy way of changing it after installation with time.
[19:29] <penguin42> Alan: Of course the fun is when you have your next laptop which is also called dave-laptop
[19:29] <yofel> what are you talking about? hostname?
[19:29] <Alan> penguin42: can't wait to see what that does to a windows network :P
[19:29] <kklimonda> yeah
[19:29] <Alan> yofel: yes
[19:30] <Alan> WinXP machine: "But... they're the same computer because they have the same name!"
[19:30] <Alan> it just seems like a really really stupid thing to remove
[19:30] <penguin42> Alan: The local avahi stuff resolves itself and adds numbers I think
[19:30] <Alan> since it's absolutely zero effort or clutter to keep
[19:31] <kklimonda> Alan: it's a clutter
[19:31]  * penguin42 used to work with a testing farm with about 10 macs in close contact all with the same install name
[19:31] <kklimonda> it's also an additional choice for new users to ponder about
[19:31] <Alan> penguin42: fun
[19:31] <Alan> kklimonda: but it's not much of a choice
[19:31] <Alan> the default is there for you
[19:31] <Alan> how about  think - put an expander in with "advanced options"
[19:32] <kklimonda> Alan: but it's a text input, you have to process it and decide whether the default option is the right one
[19:32] <Alan> kklimonda: so?
[19:32] <penguin42> Alan: I'd suggest under System->Administration an 'About this computer' in the same way that there is an About Me under Preferences
[19:32] <Alan> Gah, at this rate installing windows 7 is going to require more competence with a computer
[19:32] <kklimonda> Alan: so we don't want that.
[19:32] <Alan> and that's not a compliment :P
[19:32] <Alan> You don't want anybody to have to think about anything, that's fair enough
[19:33] <Alan> I think i'm going to have to hop distro soon though, you're getting the same problem as Windows - the easier you make it for the idiot, the more frustrating you make it for the non-idiot
[19:33] <kklimonda> Alan: you have a text installer
[19:34] <st__> if you're copycatting windows 7 installer, you should at least to think why things are there as they are
[19:34] <kklimonda> it's just as debian's with all choices left to you
[19:34] <Alan> kklimonda: sure, but the text installer doesn't get so much love....
[19:34] <Alan> and doesn't get so much ubuntu magic
[19:34] <Alan> eh, i'm ranting now
[19:35] <Alan> (I don't think that computers should be made more accessible, i think people should have to learn to use them - it's just like turning cars into a machine with a "go" and "stop" button, and the only requirement for using one is that you have a moving body part)
[19:35] <Alan> Ok, a bit of an exaggeration
[19:35] <Alan> But oh well
[19:35] <kklimonda> Alan: but that's not a reality we live in.
[19:36] <Alan> kklimonda: so you can do one of two things
[19:36] <kklimonda> Alan: some believe that access to the internet should only be granted after you pass some tests
[19:36] <Alan> :P
[19:36] <Alan> some believe it shouldn't be granted at all
[19:36] <Alan> The question is really how far you want to go to expand your userbase
[19:37] <zniavre_> good evening
[19:37] <Alan> I won't deny that you're making it easier and easier
[19:37] <zniavre_> does your sound-indicator let you srcoll with mouse ?
[19:37] <kklimonda> Alan: but you make it sound like we forget about more experienced users so we can reach more casual ones.
[19:37] <Alan> but for me i think Ubuntu peaked a couple of releases ago in my own personal usefulness/friendliness tradeoff :P
[19:37] <st__> they don't have brains to make it easier, they're making it worse instead
[19:38] <kklimonda> st__: and what do you dislike about the current installer?
[19:38] <Alan> kklimonda: it feels that way, it seems the prevailing attitude is "well pros can sort it out for themselves anyway"
[19:38] <Alan> I like being able to set my hostname in the installer
[19:38] <kklimonda> Alan: but that's the idea, isn't it? Pro can install from alternate cd and even go with ubuntu-minimal package set
[19:39] <penguin42> are ppa's launchpad or soyuz ?
[19:39] <magnetron> Alan: you don't use the 'alternate' disc?
[19:39] <Alan> kklimonda: but that's all-or-nothing
[19:39] <penguin42> kklimonda: It's a pity that it's such a big choice
[19:39] <Alan> kklimonda: what's actually happening is "pros" are missing one or two things each release
[19:39] <st__> because I'm fucking with it for 3 hours already trying to install os
[19:40] <kklimonda> st__: and its because of choices made to installer or because of some bug?
[19:40] <kklimonda> changes*
[19:40] <magnetron> i just compile Linux myself during install - makes me the biggest PRO ever
[19:40] <Alan> also, what's the point in supporting multitouch without supporting actual tablets?
[19:40] <IdleOne> !language | st__
[19:40] <kklimonda> we aren't supporting tablets? Don't we have wacom drivers?
[19:40] <Alan> that's getting on my nerves.... i still need to find out if you now have a version of xorg-input-wacom that doesn't segfault X if i rotate my screen...
[19:40] <st__> IdleOne, are you some !language bot?
[19:41] <Alan> kklimonda: yes you have wacom drivers, but it looks like nobody actually tested them in Lucid
[19:41] <IdleOne> st__: no, I'm a member of this community and I would like you to follow our community guidelines
[19:42] <st__> god, the slideshow has a scrollbar because it clipped in install window
[19:42] <Alan> heh
[19:42] <Alan> oopsie
[19:42] <Alan> bugreport :p
[19:42] <kklimonda> Alan: meh, you exaggerate - the driver has been tested but the only way to make sure it works with your hardware is to test it yourself and report bugs.
[19:43] <kklimonda> Alan: there is way too much hardware for us to test every piece of it in every combination :/
[19:44] <st__> and fancy gtk theme has gone and it looks like windows95
[19:45] <st__> and I have to launch Bloatfox to submit a bug on launchpad
[19:46] <kklimonda> st__: and the reason you are saying it here in this form is because...?
[19:46] <IdleOne> kklimonda: because people who can, do. People who can't, whine about it.
[19:53] <Alan> kklimonda: yeah, i know
[19:53] <Alan> kklimonda: i should imagine this segfault happens for pretty much every tablet laptop though
[19:53] <Alan> seeming as they all have the same digitiser in them
[19:54] <Alan> #575066
[19:54] <penguin42> bug 575066
[19:54] <Alan> ah
[19:54] <Alan> like that
[19:54] <Alan> thanks :)
[19:55] <Alan> i think it'll probably be fine
[19:56] <Alan> IIRC i tested it in F13, and fedora's always syncs slightly newer stuff, and it worked...
[19:58] <penguin42> Alan: You could try xorg-edgers to see if it's fixed; also looking at the xf86-input-wacom there is a load of switchable debug stuff that might give more, I don't know if the ubuntu package has it turned on or not and if so how you enable it
[19:59] <yofel> ls
[20:00] <penguin42> Permission Denied
[20:00] <yofel> meh -.-
[20:00] <yofel> heh
[20:01] <Alan> penguin42: i did
[20:02] <penguin42> Alan: Still broken?
[20:02] <Alan> penguin42: it was
[20:03] <Alan> Oh god... why can't linux decide on a hardware abstraction layer....
[20:03] <penguin42> Alan: I actually think it's good HAL is on the way out
[20:04] <kklimonda> penguin42: and you are saying that as a programmer? :)
[20:04] <Alan> penguin42: oh, i'm sure there are good reasons for it
[20:05] <penguin42> kklimonda: No - as a user - I could never figure out how to kick the damn thing in the right way; having both HAL and Udev suddenly getting in the way was too much!
[20:05] <Alan> but the fact it keeps changing all the time means that old guides don't work any more
[20:05] <Alan> especially for things that not many people do
[20:06] <kklimonda> penguin42: for developers an ever changing Linux landscape is a horror
[20:06] <Alan> i mean, i HATE the round-trip from xorg.conf -> HAL -> udev -> xorg.conf that ubuntu has done over the last 4 releases
[20:06] <Alan> it's crap
[20:06] <penguin42> kklimonda: Oh I agree; I've had to maintain software that had to work on multiple distros
[20:06] <penguin42> we're not back at xorg.conf are we?
[20:06] <Alan> yes
[20:06] <Alan> kinda
[20:06] <penguin42> since when?
[20:07] <Alan> like, it gets merged with the automagic stuff now somehow
[20:07] <penguin42> Alan: Always has done
[20:07] <Alan> and xorg.conf.d or whatever we now have too
[20:07] <Alan> but i've had one simple thing to do that's required a different hack for each of the 4 most recent ubuntu releases
[20:07] <penguin42> Alan: The merging has always happened ever since it went automagic; I've had to do it on this machine because it never recognised my external monitor
[20:07] <Alan> which is remapping one of my mouse buttons
[20:08] <Alan> yeah, automagic xorg really got on my nerves
[20:08] <penguin42> Alan: I'm actually glad it gets most of it right for me and I only have to fix one bit
[20:08] <Alan> great idea, but in practice it's taken about 5 years to stop having to hack around it all the damn time
[20:08] <Alan> penguin42: sure, now it does
[20:08] <Alan> never used to :|
[20:09] <Alan> but what it did at the same time was make it really difficult to set things manually...
[20:09] <Alan> grrrrrr......
[20:10] <penguin42> anyway, time to switch brain off and watch a film
[20:10] <Alan> my favourite
[20:10] <kklimonda> Alan: can't you just create xorg.conf as always?
[20:10] <Alan> broken Xorg, no log to say why...
[20:10] <Alan> kklimonda: in my experience for quite a while most of the useful stuff was ignored or didn't quite work right..
[20:10] <st__> sound is stattering lol
[20:11] <kklimonda> Alan: hmm, it shouldn't
[20:11] <kklimonda> st__: report a bug
[20:11] <st__> against what?
[20:11] <Alan> .....grrrrrrr
[20:11] <Alan> now what...
[20:12] <kklimonda> st__: ubuntu-bug audio from terminal
[20:33] <st__> and I still cannot remove evolution unless all gnome desktop will be gone... fricking unix way
[20:34] <kklimonda> st__: how do you do it?
[20:35] <kklimonda> why can't you just remove evolution package? what else are you trying to remove?
[20:35] <st__> by removing evolution and related stuff
[20:35] <st__> like evolution-data-server and similar crap
[20:36] <kklimonda> st__: it's part of GNOME
[20:36]  * undifined hands Alan a sweet latte, relax a bit
[20:36] <kklimonda> st__: why can't you just remove evolution package? it will pull two others but not half of GNOME
[20:37] <st__> why would I have evolution pieces everywhere if I don't use it?
[20:37] <kklimonda> st__: why not?
[20:37] <kklimonda> are you running low on disk space?
[20:38] <kklimonda> st__: other gnome components depend on parts of evolution - for example are linking against some of its libraries. you can't just remove those libraries without pulling apps
[20:39] <st__> and of course gnome developers never heard about dynamic linking... how sad
[20:39] <jfi> evolution cannot be removed the package is required by ubuntu-desktop......
[20:39] <jfi> which was the case with lucid
[20:39] <jfi> *not
[20:39] <kklimonda> jfi: in maverick its only recommended
[20:39] <jfi> nop:(
[20:39] <kklimonda> st__: now you are just trolling, aren't you?
[20:40] <kklimonda> jfi: in maverick it is - you can remove evolution and the only two other packages that are removed alongside with it are evolution-couchdb and evolution-exchange
[20:41] <jfi> yes evolution-data-server and evolution-data-server-common
[20:41] <jfi> I cannot remove these 2 packages due to dependence on gnome-desktop-environment
[20:42] <st__> lol who would install bogofilter on desktop machine?
[20:42] <kklimonda> jfi: those two are part of gnome platform
[20:42] <kklimonda> jfi: and not just a dependency of evolution
[20:43] <kklimonda> st__: people who use it with evolution to fight spam?
[20:43] <st__> spam is filtered on mail server, not a client machine
[20:44] <charlie-tca> st__: what if I don't own a mail server?
[20:44] <charlie-tca> I don't actually need one with Ubuntu
[20:45] <st__> all mail providers do spam filtering... or you think each ubuntu user runs mailserver on his machine?
[20:45] <kklimonda> st__: all? really? you sure of it?
[20:45] <charlie-tca> but that does not mean ALL spam is filtered, does it?
[20:47] <charlie-tca> I need that provider if all spam is filtered by them
[20:47] <FoolsRun> Hi, The Maverick UNE installer is stuck at "Retreiving file 2 of 6". Has been for 20min. Anyone else seen this?
[20:47] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: sounds like a bug I've seen on LP recently..
[20:47] <charlie-tca> FoolsRun: usb?
[20:47] <FoolsRun> yes, USB
[20:48] <charlie-tca> yes, reported bug
[20:48] <FoolsRun> crap
[20:48] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: bug 627672
[20:48] <FoolsRun> workaround, or do I need to reinstall Lucid?
[20:50] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: hmm.. I don't think there is any
[20:50] <st__> if bogofilter or similar system at provider's site didn't filtered a message, the same locally installed program will be no help; also what is 'erlang' and why it is on my system?
[20:50] <FoolsRun> is this a UNE thing or a Maverick thing?
[20:50] <FoolsRun> Because not being able to install it is a pretty serious bug, I'd think
[20:51] <kklimonda> st__: are you sure you have installed ubuntu the right way if you now go through a package list and wonder about ever signle one of them?
[20:51] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: it's a problem with usb installer
[20:51] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: already fixed
[20:51] <kklimonda> st__: erlang is for couchdb
[20:51] <kklimonda> and couchdb is part of ubuntuone
[20:51] <FoolsRun> kklimonda: but I probably can't create an installer using the fix, right?
[20:52] <st__> i wonder why default install from livecd contains so much garbage instead of codecs or language packs, for example
[20:52] <kklimonda> st__: it's not a garbage because you say so
[20:52] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: you could unpack the installer image and tweak some config files.. and then repack the image yourself..
[20:53] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: I'm not really sure how to do that though
[20:53] <FoolsRun> kklimonda: or wait until release like I should have done ;)
[20:53] <FoolsRun> No problem; my copy of Lucid had been upgraded since Intrepid anyway, this was a good excuse to format and reinstall.
[20:54] <st__> dnsmasq is now installed, it's cool
[20:54] <FoolsRun> thanks for the info!
[20:54] <kklimonda> FoolsRun: yes, it's not yeat in daily images so you have to wait
[21:07] <Volkodav> Do we still need the "Ignore ABI" on 256.53 drivers in xorg.conf or not ?
[21:08] <DanaG> Ubuntuone-client-gnome is garbage, because it spams me with Ubuntu One Disabled in every single folder in my home dir!
[21:08] <DanaG> It's a big waste of space.
[21:08] <DanaG> and there's no "go the **** away" button on that banner.
[21:21] <kklimonda> DanaG: and it's a bug
[21:21] <durt> hey folks, just lost right click on my synaptics clickpad on upgrade to MM, anyone here tell me about what patches are in the kernel and what the state of things are right now in respect to workarounds?
[21:28] <DanaG> What's the bug?  The lack of "go away"?
[21:30] <jenkins> is it me or has mavrick got so much faster in the last few days?
[21:31] <DanaG> durt: I have a 3-button touchpad, and the clickpad support breaks that, too!
[21:32] <DanaG> And I can't drag anything, either!
[21:32] <DanaG> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/612591
[21:33] <durt> DanaG, ya, just read that, any up to date info, I'm finding may-july stuff...
[21:33] <kklimonda> DanaG: it shouldn't show in every folder - only in some of them
[21:34] <DanaG> Or rather, it's showing in most folders under home.
[21:34] <DanaG> But there's no "leave me alone!" button.
[21:34] <DanaG> I had to actually remove ubuntuone-client-gnome to kill the damn banner.
[21:37] <durt> DanaG, strangely changing the mouse settings to 'lefty' switches the whole surface touch-click to right click (context menu).
[21:38] <DanaG> Nice.  Not.
[21:44] <durt> DanaG, using netbook remix or whatever it's called now, or desktop?
[21:44] <DanaG> I'm using desktop, since netbook remix is 100% unusable for me.
[21:44] <DanaG> The menu never finishes drawing, and if I vt-switch, it just sits there completely blank white.
[21:45] <durt> me too, wonder if this affects both.
[21:45] <DanaG> Yeah, it's Nautilus everywhere.
[21:46] <durt> er, sorry. If the synaptics issue affects both (kernel issue), or a config issue.
[21:52] <joona> Hello
[21:53] <joona> Does anyone have trouble getting wlan to work with maverick?
[21:54] <BUGabundo> bRoas Noites
[21:56] <durt> joona, no probs with my broadcom card, your card?
[21:56] <joona> Atheros
[21:56] <joona> i guess
[21:57] <Karen_m> I upgraded to 10.10 and upon a reboot I received:  error: the symbol `grub_xputs` not found.     I am googling on how to resolve this, but I just wanted to let others know to have a LIVE CD HANDY
[21:58] <joona> Karen_m: Is your Grub version 2.0 or 1.5
[21:58] <Karen_m> whatever the update-manager --devel-release gave me
[21:58] <Karen_m> I am unable to check as all i see is ; grub rescue>
[21:59] <undifined> ouch
[21:59] <Karen_m> i think the problem was caused because I had a usb stick plugged in when I ran upgrade maybe?  who knows
[21:59] <joona> What's in the USB stick?
[21:59] <Karen_m> just an ext4 partition, my files
[21:59] <joona> okay...
[21:59] <undifined> important ones ?
[21:59] <Karen_m> no
[21:59] <undifined> ok
[22:00] <Karen_m> it's going to be a livecd here in 4 minutes
[22:00] <undifined> good
[22:00] <undifined> :)
[22:00] <joona> you may find http://go.neti.us/aykqu4 helpful (or the comments)
[22:01] <joona> Try to open BIOS settings, then check the boot order
[22:02] <joona> http://go.neti.us/aw2pe8
[22:03] <Karen_m> i never changed anything, and it worked before.  I will try and guess which drive maverick is on
[22:04] <joona> do you have a dual-boot?
[22:04] <Karen_m> yes
[22:04] <Karen_m> win7 and ubuntu
[22:04] <joona> oh well
[22:04] <joona> that may cause this
[22:04] <joona> the ubuntu might be in hd0,0
[22:04] <Volkodav> i am just going to remove this ignore ABi and see what happens
[22:06] <joona> Volkodav: what are you trying to do?
[22:06] <Karen_m> well, windows is ch2 :)  i know that by luck
[22:06] <joona> k
[22:07] <joona> so which one would be ubuntu
[22:07] <Karen_m> i thought uuid took care of all this
[22:07] <Karen_m> i gotta reboot and keep trying
[22:07] <joona> hmm
[22:07] <Karen_m> 4 drives
[22:07] <Karen_m> 3 are ubuntu
[22:07] <Volkodav> trying to see if i still need the ignore ABi  fix on 256.53
[22:07] <joona> okay
[22:08] <joona> Karen_m: Try to boot the ubuntu which is recovery mode or then the latest one if it's about kernels
[22:10] <Karen_m> changing the boot order had no effect, going to livecd it :)
[22:11] <joona> okay
[22:12] <joona> Now, I need some help. WLAN/internet doesn't work on Maverick.
[22:12] <henke> what needs to be installed to get the new sound menu?
[22:13] <joona> new sound menu?
[22:13] <joona> henke, what do you mean by "new sound menu"?
[22:13] <zniavre> indicator-sound ?
[22:13] <henke> joona, http://www.ubunturoot.com/2010/07/sound-menu-updates-in-maverick-meerkat.html
[22:14] <henke> zniavre, probably, thanks
[22:14] <joona> ohh
[22:14] <joona> Hey, I'd need some help. Wlan/internet doesn't work on my Ubuntu (maverick)
[22:15] <joona> I got a dual-boot Ubuntu & Kubuntu, and the internet works just fine on the KDE desktop
[22:16] <charlie-tca> Alan: bug 628027
[22:16] <charlie-tca> sorry, bug 628087
[22:17] <Alan> charlie-tca: damn people reporting bug without the keyword "hostname" :P
[22:18] <charlie-tca> reported during ISO testing before release
[22:18] <Alan> fair enough
[22:19] <Alan> i've just marked my bug as duplicate
[22:19] <charlie-tca> joona: are you using ndiswrapper?
[22:19] <joona> no
[22:19] <joona> never heard of it
[22:20] <joona> charlie-tca, nope, never heard of ndiswrapper
[22:20] <Alan> aaah, ndiswrapper
[22:20] <charlie-tca> hmm, can't seem to help you, sorry
[22:20] <Alan> I haven't seen that word in like... 2 years at least
[22:20] <Alan> and very happy about it too
[22:20] <charlie-tca> I don't use wireless here
[22:20] <Alan> it's called *always* buying intel chipsets!
[22:20] <joona> I do
[22:21] <AlanBell> joona: so it worked on Lucid?
[22:21] <joona> alabell: Yep
[22:21] <joona> alanbell: But not on Maverick
[22:21] <joona> I got a dualboot KDE and Gnome and the Gnome's internet doesn't work
[22:22] <MarkusT> I can no longer use USB devices with VirtualBox PEUL on Maverick (the devices are greyed out when the appliance runs). I'm a member of vboxusers and I can't figure out what changed between Lucid and Maverick. Any ideas?
[22:22] <AlanBell> joona: built in wireless or a usb dongle?
[22:22] <joona> built-in
[22:22] <charlie-tca> MarkusT: could be the kernel updated
[22:22] <joona> atheros..something
[22:23] <AlanBell> do lspci and paste just the line that talks about your wireless adapter
[22:23] <charlie-tca> MarkusT: VBox PEUL for maverick is not yet available, so we are using the version for lucid
[22:23] <MarkusT> charlie-tca: That's correct.
[22:24] <charlie-tca> Usually, if the kernel changes too much, VBox stops working in different areas
[22:25] <charlie-tca> It catches up around release time
[22:25] <joona> alanbell: Here, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/488930/
[22:26] <AlanBell> joona: ok, I have Atheros AR9285 working just fine in Maverick
[22:26] <joona> :/
[22:27] <joona> That doesn't help me much
[22:28] <AlanBell> can you pastebin the output of lsmod
[22:28] <Alan> charlie-tca: i've added my two cents :p
[22:28] <joona> When I try to connect, I starts to connect but says the password is incorrect. Then when I write the correct WEP-key in Hex, it ccan't get an ip
[22:28] <joona> sure
[22:28] <AlanBell> see if the ath9k module is there
[22:29] <AlanBell> oh, so it sees the wireless networks?
[22:29] <AlanBell> just can't connect to them?
[22:29] <joona> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/488937/
[22:29] <Alan> I hope my comments are coherent and well-expressed
[22:29] <joona> yep
[22:29] <Alan> and i REALLY hope they decide to fix that bug
[22:29] <AlanBell> ok, you are using ath5k (unsurprisingly)
[22:29] <joona> alanbell: Then I've tried doing ifconfig wlan0 down and up, iwconfig wlan0 essid...
[22:29] <Alan> but it's been marked as "low" so it'll probably be ignored and patch-rejected and "omg we're in feature freeze" until people just give up...
[22:30] <joona> :/
[22:30] <AlanBell> joona: does it connect to unsecured wifi? (just to test, not reccommending it long term)
[22:31] <joona> Don't have one
[22:31] <joona> and the Wireless is a..preset one
[22:31] <joona> should I try madwifi?
[22:32] <joona> or ndiswrapper
[22:33] <AlanBell> I wouldn't bother personally
[22:33] <joona> sigh
[22:34] <AlanBell> I would file a bug with the results you have so far
[22:34] <joona> oh well
[22:34] <joona> is there a way to..degrade maverick into lucid?
[22:35] <joona> and upgrade when a stable release comes out
[22:35] <AlanBell> no, not really
[22:35] <AlanBell> file the bug, or when the stable release comes out it still won't work
[22:35] <Alan> the bit where it says "beta, do not use on production machines" means what it says :P
[22:35] <Alan> install/test it on something spare
[22:36] <Alan> like a spare disk, spare partition, whatever
[22:36] <joona> way to go me
[22:36] <kklimonda> hmm, subpixels smoothing slows down my computer considerably..
[22:37] <joona> Oh well, I'll just use KDE
[22:37] <Alan> is *that*  why it's not enabled by default?
[22:37] <Alan> Not sure if i got around to complaining about that earlier
[22:37] <Alan> is ubuntu following GNOME defaults for font rendering?
[22:37] <Alan> either way, it's the ugliest possible setting
[22:37] <Alan> so glad it's only a few clicks to make it less ugly...
[22:38] <histo> !downgrade | joona
[22:38] <AlanBell> bug 625692 is about slow internet with ath5k
[22:38] <AlanBell> which isn't what you are seeing, but could indicate there has been some messing about in that area
[22:39] <cowbud> anyone seen an obscene slow down when lots of terminal text goes on in X?
[22:39] <kklimonda> cowbud: yeah, I've seen it
[22:39] <kklimonda> cowbud: what's your fonts setting?
[22:40] <AlanBell> joona: do "ubuntu-bug -p linux" as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies
[22:40] <cowbud> kklimonda: sub pixel LCDs. unless you are looking for something else..
[22:41] <kklimonda> cowbud: try changing it some other option - Best Shape or Best Contrast
[22:41] <joona> k
[22:41] <joona> I'll try that.brb
[22:41] <cowbud> kklimonda: do I need to restart for that to take affect or just restart my gnome terminals?
[22:41] <Alan> hmmm
[22:42] <cowbud> restart X that is..
[22:42] <Alan> I probably wouldn't notice that bug, i use a bitmap font in terminals...
[22:42] <AlanBell> joona: remember, the reason you are using the beta is so that you can file bugs when things don't work
[22:42] <kklimonda> cowbud: it should take effect immediately, you can probably close your terminals to be sure
[22:43] <cowbud> kklimonda: nah still noticeable slower
[22:44] <Alan> ok
[22:44] <Alan> now i have rage
[22:45] <kklimonda> Alan: isn't it what you've been doing for last two hours or so? ;)
[22:45] <Alan> kklimonda: atleast
[22:45] <Alan> kklimonda: but this time, i just found out it's only the GTK GUI for ubiquity that's missing the hostname
[22:45] <Alan> the Qt version has it
[22:47] <cowbud> kklimonda: is there a bug filed for this that you know of?
[22:47] <kklimonda> cowbud: no
[22:47] <kklimonda> cowbud: i.e I haven't seen one (or looked for it)
[22:47] <cowbud> fair enough, ill look. thanks
[22:48] <charlie-tca> Alan: well, go rant in #Alan about it now
[22:48] <kklimonda> Alan: they are different things, done by different teams
[22:49] <kklimonda> Alan: from the specification: "The hostname entry will be dropped, with the hostname automatically set to whatever the default value would have been ('ubuntu-desktop', 'ubuntu-laptop')."
[22:49] <kklimonda> so it's not at bug, as I said earlier
[22:50] <Alan> kklimonda: what specification?
[22:50] <kklimonda> Alan: of the installer redesign
[22:50] <Alan> and i still want to know what narrow-minded person thought that was a good idea
[22:50] <kklimonda> Alan: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-m-installer-redesign
[22:50] <yofel> that sounds st****
[22:51] <Alan> It's such a stupid thing to drop
[22:52] <Alan> Just because the developers that wrote the spec obviously never use it
[22:52] <Alan> It seems like people are going on the assumption that changing it is a really narrow usecase...
[22:53] <kklimonda> Alan: just because I'm curious - what is your use case for changed hostname?
[22:53] <Alan> kklimonda: to actually give the machine a meaningful name
[22:53] <Alan> what happens if you have 2 people called alan in a house
[22:54] <Alan> both with laptops
[22:54] <kklimonda> do you?
[22:54] <Alan> and they want to share files between them or something
[22:54] <Alan> immediately you have the problem of "which alan-laptop ?"
[22:54] <Alan> ok, so my specific case, i happen to have 3 laptops that are all mine
[22:55] <charlie-tca> I use 5 desktops here, but I also assign static ip and hostnames to them
[22:55] <Alan> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/628087/comments/11
[22:55] <Alan> there are my comments
[22:55] <Alan> instead of repeating myself
[22:55] <yofel> kklimonda: btw, I always change that field too
[22:55] <kklimonda> Alan: but you are in minority and you know what hostname is and how to change it.
[22:56] <charlie-tca> The change is for the "average" home user, not for those that know what hostname is
[22:56] <kklimonda> it takes like what.. one command to change it after installtion?
[22:56] <Alan> kklimonda: actually, no
[22:56] <Alan> kklimonda: 1 command, editing another file, and that's just if you're lucky
[22:56] <yofel> kklimonda: so? then move it into an advanced tab, but don't remove it completely - not all people that are using the installer are "just" average
[22:56] <Alan> if you made the mistake of installing anything with an unsanitary setup script, you're screwed
[22:56] <kklimonda> yofel: but there is no advanced tab afair
[22:56] <charlie-tca> Just use the alternate installer.
[22:56] <Alan> some programs like to care about your hostname
[22:57] <Alan> it's a really stupid thing to outright REMOVE from the UI
[22:57] <yofel> ssh keys for example
[22:57] <Alan> you know, the GtkExpander widget was designed for these cases
[22:57] <Alan> hide-it-but-make-it-available
[22:57] <Alan> there is a SIGNIFICANT proportion of ubuntu users that ARE technically competent
[22:57] <Alan> probably more than aren't
[22:58] <kklimonda> Alan: and they know how to change the hostname after installation or how to use alternate installer
[22:58] <Alan> in trying to "streamline" stuff you're alienating chunks of your fanatical userbase
[22:58] <Alan> kklimonda: but why give them a great big "f**k you, we don't care" when there is no excuse to?
[22:58] <kklimonda> Alan: yeah, that's a big "FU" - exactly those people mindset, they won't use ubuntu anyway
[22:59] <Alan> it's a ridiculous choice and now there seems to be nothing but backwards rationalisation for "i don't use it, therefore we won't fix it"
[22:59] <yofel> ok, let's calm down again a bit. As long as the alternate installer supports setting it I'm fine with it
[22:59] <AlanBell> Alan: hey, your computer has the same name as mine :-)
[22:59] <kklimonda> Alan: it's not broken so there is nothing to fix
[22:59] <Alan> Does the alternate installer support encrypted home directory?
[22:59] <Alan> More to the point, why does the GUI installer?
[22:59] <Alan> I bet more people change their hostname than encrypt their home dir
[23:00] <Alan> AlanBell: not if i can help it!
[23:00] <yofel> *shrug*
[23:00] <kklimonda> Alan: have you discussed it with designers? They don't usually sit on this channel
[23:00] <Alan> I dislike the alternate installer because it misses most of the niceties of the graphical installer
[23:00] <Alan> like being able to have wireless network before installing
[23:01] <Alan> kklimonda: well hopefully they read bugs filed against their software
[23:01] <AlanBell> Alan: is that a really new change to the installer? I installed Maverick a few weeks ago and set the computer name to "maverick" I do have another alan-desktop, but not that one
[23:01] <Alan> Also, i don't feel like there's going to be any point because for it to get this far, there isn't anybody on the "inside" that will sympathise, it seems
[23:02] <Alan> AlanBell: since alpha3 i think
[23:02] <Alan> i'm pretty sure the option was there in alpha3
[23:02] <Alan> it's not there in beta
[23:02] <Alan> but actually looks like they've redesigned the installer
[23:02] <AlanBell> ok, it seems sub-optimal to me to not be able to choose the computer name
[23:02] <Alan> probably synced the new version just before beta or something.
[23:03] <AlanBell> I will re-install tomorrow perhaps and have a look at that then
[23:04] <Alan> You know what's annoying? it *seems* like i'm making a big deal out of nothing... but the change and the attitude around it is actually a shining example of what's going wrong :|
[23:04] <kklimonda> Alan: and that is?
[23:05]  * yofel would have complained if he had followed that UDS session
[23:05] <yofel> sad that I can't be in multiple places at the same time..
[23:05] <Alan> That developers are caring more about the lowest common denominator and ignoring actual use cases
[23:06] <kklimonda> there actually should be a nice creator for home networks - something like Windows' Homegroup
[23:06] <Alan> I mean, why not just make one window with a big button that says " do it all for me" ?
[23:06] <kklimonda> and there you should be able to set the hostname
[23:06] <Alan> i mean, you can guess their username from another OS
[23:06] <Alan> you can probably guess where to put it
[23:06] <Alan> why give them the choice?
[23:06] <Alan> they probably just want ubuntu alongside windows with the same username as they have on windows
[23:07] <Alan> and probably no password, if they have no password on windows
[23:07] <Alan> and install grub on the first hard disk in BIOS order
[23:07] <Alan> why bother giving any choice?
[23:07] <MarkusT> If anyone else has problems with VirtualBox PEUL and usb not working: It seems to be some kind of permission problem I wasn't able to figure out. Just start VirtualBox as root and it will work.
[23:08] <kklimonda> Alan: and you seem to be missing the point - but still it's not really a channel for ranting about software. and it's unproductive.
[23:09] <Alan> kklimonda: i'm giving feedback on a beta
[23:09] <kklimonda> Alan: you may as well be right but at this point of time we can't add this field anyway so why bother? there is a bug reported and designers will read it.
[23:09] <Alan> I'm just unfortunately discovering that my bugs are actually features
[23:10] <Alan> kklimonda: why can't you?
[23:10] <kklimonda> Alan: you have given this feedback four hours ago. Now you are just ranting.
[23:10] <kklimonda> Alan: because it's past UI Freeze
[23:10] <Alan> kklimonda: code for "haha, now you have to deal with it for 6 months" :(
[23:11] <kklimonda> adding this field will require, for example, translations and new screenshots for manual (if someone is working on it)
[23:11] <Alan> kklimonda: sorry, it was reignited by me actually spending some of my time to see what the state of it was, and if it was a simple fix
[23:11] <Alan> and actually it looks like a simple fix
[23:11] <charlie-tca> It is a simple fix, use the alternate image to do the installation.
[23:11] <kklimonda> Alan: it's a terrible simple fix - probably a few lines of code. But, as it's not a bug, it will require discussion
[23:11] <Alan> but now it looks like anybody who wants to change their hostname has to either screw around or put up with whatever the alternate installer barfs out
[23:12] <kklimonda> Alan: or you can change it after installation and before you start installing your software that may hardcode it in its config files (which sounds terribly ugly and should be reported)
[23:13] <Alan> kklimonda: it's still a feature regression bug, not a new feature
[23:13] <Alan> :P
[23:13] <kklimonda> Alan: removing options is not a regression in itself
[23:14] <yofel> IMHO it is, then again, I'm a KDE user
[23:14] <Alan> kklimonda: you know what would have been a REALLY great idea?  collecting installation stats
[23:14] <Alan> see what percentage of desktop installs change the hostname manually from the default
[23:14] <kklimonda> Alan: we can't do that
[23:14] <Alan> with a great big "yes plz upload this" checkbox at the beginning of the installer
[23:14] <Alan> You can
[23:15] <Alan> you have the ubuntu software survey
[23:15] <Alan> no reason why you can't do something similar
[23:15] <Alan> unfortunately you can't now
[23:15] <kklimonda> even the idea of simple opt-out counter of installations was criticised
[23:15] <jani_> 10.04 64-bit, 10.10 64-bit both hang at boot after line that says "please try 'cgrou_disable=memory' option if you don't wan tmemory chroups" 4GB DDR3 ECC memory, amd phenom x6 1055T 2.8GHz, ASUS M4A785TD-V board (latest bios), 785G+710 chipset, default bios options, nothing extra connected (other than keyboard + mouse + dvd-rom). It hangs with a cursor blinking indefinitely at that point (waited one hour).
[23:15] <Alan> because some know-it-alls pushed changes through without research
[23:15] <kklimonda> Alan: this would only work if it were set as a default option and not on a opt-in basis
[23:15] <kklimonda> Alan: do you know that there was no research?
[23:15] <kklimonda> Alan: for fact?
[23:15] <Alan> kklimonda: eh, i guess, it would be skewed towards people that actually give a crap about their installation
[23:16] <jani_> when i disabled cgroup memory, it hung after "console [tty0] enabled"
[23:16] <kklimonda> Alan: indeed
[23:16] <Alan> so now we're in the realm where "being a good corporate citizen" = shooting blind
[23:17] <Alan> cool
[23:17] <Alan> ok, i should seriously stop ranting now
[23:17] <Alan> it's not going to change anything
[23:17] <kklimonda> Alan: what you can do is discuss it with designers (through bug, or even mailing list)
[23:17] <Alan> the satisfaction of others agreeing isn't outweighing the disappointment of others not
[23:17] <Alan> kklimonda: but you said it yourself, it's already too late
[23:17] <kklimonda> Alan: you have to remember that FLOSS software is done this way - we release something, community gives feedback, we discuss it and change things.
[23:18] <jani_> sorry, the line was of course "please try 'cgroup_disable=memory' option if you don't wan't memory cgroups"
[23:18] <kklimonda> Alan: for this release but there is another in 7 months.
[23:18] <Alan> kklimonda: do you skip releases?
[23:18] <kklimonda> Alan: it would be awesome if we could do things the right way from the beginning but that's impossible
[23:18] <Alan> i skipped karmic entirely because it was horribly broken
[23:18] <kklimonda> Alan: is it really worth skipping a release?
[23:19] <Alan> no suspend, screwed up sound
[23:19] <joona> alanbell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wicd/+bug/631161
[23:19] <joona> Reported.
[23:19] <Alan> kklimonda: no, but i'll just hate ubuntu every time i install it for the next 6 months :(
[23:19] <joona> :)
[23:20] <Alan> kklimonda: freezes always seem too early - by the time the software is stable enough for people to test, they can't have any input on that release anyway
[23:20] <Alan> kklimonda: which makes it feel pointless giving feedback at all
[23:21] <kklimonda> Alan: why? there is always a next release - your feedback may be considered during next development cycle.
[23:21] <Alan> because no matter what happens, everybody's got to live with it for the next 6 months, or they've got to skip a version and deal with ancient softwware versions...
[23:21] <kklimonda> Alan: Why think about now?
[23:21] <sharky> Is this Alan personal rant channel
[23:21] <Alan> kklimonda: because what's produced now is what i have to use until "then"
[23:21] <yofel> Alan: well, that spec was written at UDS, which is a few weeks after release, you need to participate there if you want to take part in the decision making process
[23:21] <kklimonda> Alan: what we are trying to do is to create a great operating system - but it's a long process.
[23:22] <Alan> and a fuzzy definition
[23:22] <jani_> windows 7 and freebsd do work on same system
[23:22] <Alan> intrepid was pretty nice
[23:22] <jani_> all ubuntu versions hang
[23:22] <jani_> i've tried
[23:22] <Alan> :P
[23:22] <kklimonda> Alan: but we have always aimed at people who aren't technical.
[23:23] <Alan> kklimonda: does that mean technically i've been enjoying the failure for the last few years, and now you're succeeding i need to move elsewhere?
[23:23] <Alan> stuck between a rock and a hard place
[23:23] <kklimonda> Alan: no, why?
[23:23] <kklimonda> Alan: that's something I don't really get. Ubuntu is just a Debian under the hood.
[23:24] <Alan> I like the fact ubuntu puts more effort into smoothing the experience
[23:24] <kklimonda> if you strip shiny installer, some tweaks to GNOME, some software created by us and Canonical you will get just another Linux Distribution.
[23:24] <Alan> and that's what's kept me on ubuntu
[23:24] <Alan> but it's shifted from improving the experience to streamlining it to a different demographic
[23:24] <Alan> kklimonda: it's people like you that give us 1366x768 monitors! *rage*
[23:24] <Alan> :P
[23:24] <Alan> haha
[23:25] <Alan> kklimonda: it's those bits that have made ubuntu stand out though
[23:25] <Alan> eh, maybe i should just fork and make probuntu! :P
[23:25] <kklimonda> Alan: yeah, sure - but maybe designers have a better idea where to put host name change gizmo?
[23:25] <Alan> kklimonda: you mean like "nowhere because we don't use it" ?
[23:25] <Alan> :P
[23:25] <kklimonda> Alan: it's hard to tell without discussing it with them.
[23:27] <Alan> indeed
[23:27] <yofel> erm, Alan: maybe we could cut this down a lot if you would go to #ubuntu-installer and kindly asked if they would consider adding that option back again sometime in the future
[23:27] <Alan> yofel: maybe, i'm probably not in the right frame of mind now
[23:27] <yofel> heh, have a cookie ;)
[23:28] <Alan> I meant to leave, but the discussion kept going
[23:28] <Alan> "Somebody stop the internet, i want off"
[23:28] <Alan> :P
[23:28] <yofel> XD
[23:28] <kklimonda> one thing I agree is that Ubuntu community should be doing more to show "fanatical users" that Ubuntu is just a Linux distribution underneath.. even if we don't call it Linux ;)
[23:28] <kklimonda> we tend to loose users who decide that Ubuntu is to "lame" distribution for them and switch over to Arch or Gentoo
[23:29] <Alan> kklimonda: i love you and want to have your babies
[23:29] <charlie-tca> jani_: have you tried editing the grub menu boot line to remove "quiet splash" and booting? You should see the errors then
[23:30] <Alan> kklimonda: the unfortunate fact of life is that it's pretty much impossible to balance the two
[23:30] <charlie-tca> Also, sometimes, that lets the system boot
[23:30] <jani_> charlie-tca, how do you edit install cd grub menu? i did remove quiet splash manually from live cd menu, though
[23:31] <jani_> i just can't successfully boot 8.04 32-bit, 10.04 64-bit, 10.10 64-bit at all
[23:31] <jani_> just freebsd 7 and windows 7 work
[23:31] <jani_> all ubuntus hang immediately after kernel is loaded
[23:31] <Alan> jani_: tried ubuntu 7?
[23:31] <Alan> maybe it's the magic number 7!
[23:31] <Alan> :P
[23:31] <jani_> Alan, heh, i guess that's what's needed :D
[23:32]  * popey shakes his fist at Alan 
[23:32] <charlie-tca> you can hit shift as the cd boots, then when the options menu comes up, hit F6 and remove them from the end of the line
[23:32] <Alan> just hack the lsb_release strink
[23:32] <Alan> *string
[23:32] <jani_> charlie-tca, yeah, did that
[23:32] <charlie-tca> What about the 32-bit versions? do they work?
[23:32] <kklimonda> Alan: sure, we'll always loose a part of our users who believe that the only real Linux is Slackware. But we could still do a better job at showing that you can be a "pro linux user" and use Ubuntu at the same time.
[23:32] <popey> every time I start an irc client without /nick popey, it always reminds me that the nick "alan" is registered to you.. yet I've never seen you in any channel I'm in!
[23:32] <popey> until now!
[23:32] <jani_> i mean, how else i would have seen that line before hang
[23:32] <jani_> charlie-tca, just 8.04, it hung same way
[23:33] <Alan> popey: :P
[23:33] <Alan> popey: have i ever ghost killed you?
[23:33] <popey> i dont think so
[23:33] <Alan> shame :P
[23:33] <popey> i dont stay alan long enough
[23:33] <popey> haha
[23:33] <popey> one day
[23:33] <Alan> heh, most people don't have a chance to become alan
[23:33] <Alan> my IRC client is on 24/7
[23:33] <popey> put it on your "100 things to do before I die"
[23:33] <popey> I have many times
[23:33] <jani_> again, things that i think are related: 10.04 64-bit, 10.10 64-bit both hang at boot after line that says "please try 'cgrou_disable=memory' option if you don't wan tmemory chroups" 4GB DDR3 ECC memory, amd phenom x6 1055T 2.8GHz, ASUS M4A785TD-V board (latest bios), 785G+710 chipset, default bios options, nothing extra connected (other than keyboard + mouse + dvd-rom). It hangs with a cursor blinking indefinitely at that point (waited one hour).
[23:34] <popey> anyway, just saying Hi :)
[23:34] <jani_> right, with all the typos and everything :)
[23:34] <charlie-tca> jani_: I am thinking file a bug on it. or ask in #ubuntu-installer, where they know more than me
[23:34] <Alan> jani_: one possibility is that you have some REALLY new chip on that motherboard?
[23:34] <charlie-tca> They may not be very active today, though
[23:35] <Alan> i remember when the linux kernel didn't support the latest jmicron IDE/SATA controller stuff, made it impossible to install on new hardware
[23:35] <jani_> Alan, all i know i had to update my bios to sept. 2010 version, because july 2010 version did not recognize my CPU
[23:35] <jani_> so yeah, possibly
[23:36] <jani_> Alan, haha, that also bit me long time ago, jmicron problems
[23:36] <Zorael> Is there a neat terminal command to update to maverick beta on my lucid installation? Or is stuff in maverick too wildly different, that I might be better of by just doing a fresh install?
[23:36] <jani_> and also some ethernet controller that had 4GB+ DMA issues
[23:36] <popey> Zorael: i upgraded on friday, seemed okay
[23:36] <popey> Zorael: sudo do-release-upgrade -d
[23:37] <Alan> jani_: EVO or EVO/U3S6 version?
[23:37] <Zorael> popey: Awesome, thanks
[23:37] <Alan> i.e. do you have usb 3 / sata 3?
[23:37] <jani_> USB 2, not sure of SATA
[23:37] <charlie-tca> Zorael: here is the command - http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/maverick/beta#Upgrading%20from%20Ubuntu%2010.04%20LTS
[23:37] <jani_> i'd guess SATA 2
[23:38] <jani_> i mean, 3 Gbps one, SATA 'version numbers' are so confusing :)
[23:38] <Alan> yeah
[23:38] <Alan> :P
[23:38] <Alan> jani_: tried booting the installer with noacpi?
[23:39] <jani_> ah right, will try to do so now, i'll let you know how it crashes and burns with that option ;)
[23:40] <jani_> err, acpi=off or noapic?
[23:40] <Alan> jani_: heh, it might make no difference, but ACPI is a horrible beast...
[23:40] <Alan> acpi=off probably
[23:40] <Alan> apic is something different
[23:40] <Alan> i'm probably just shooting in the dark though :P
[23:41] <jani_> kernel option or does that f6 menu do something magic?
[23:41] <kklimonda> there is acpi=off in F6 menu
[23:42] <kklimonda> but it's a kernel option
[23:42] <jani_> yeah, but it didn't change kernel boot string
[23:42] <jani_> so i'm suspicious
[23:42] <kklimonda> it doesn't
[23:42] <jani_> ok, it's booting now
[23:43] <Alan> like, properly?
[23:43] <Alan> or has it not got to the bit where it hangs?
[23:44] <jani_> no, have to retry now
[23:45] <Daijoubu> Any idea how to trigger a DSL connection in Kubuntu? I made a DSL connection but it's just sitting there and it doesn't connect or anything.
[23:45] <Alan> here's a really horrible test for you jani_ .... downgrade motherboard BIOS and borrow an older AM3 CPU from somebody....
[23:45] <jani_> Alan, well, what do you know
[23:45] <jani_> it boots
[23:46] <Alan> jani_: it's entirely possible that Asus royally screwed something up in the ACPI in the BIOS update
[23:46] <jani_> Alan, I wouldn't be surprised at all
[23:46] <Alan> actually, the machine will boot with the old BIOS, right?
[23:46] <jani_> Alan, no idea, because it didn't recognize the CPU :)
[23:46] <Alan> you could try booting with ACPI on in the old BIOS?
[23:48] <Alan> jani_: fair enough
[23:48] <jani_> that... can be problematic, you know
[23:48] <Daijoubu> do i have to go to Kubuntu+1 for kubuntu 10.10 help ? O-O
[23:48] <Alan> jani_: yeah... unfortunately, it seems most BIOS revisions aren't tested outside of Windows at all
[23:48] <Alan> I would assume that BSD doesn't bother with ACPI, and windows has specific hacks
[23:48] <Alan> and Linux sees what looks like ACPI and tries to use it
[23:48] <yofel> Daijoubu: no kubuntu+1 is here too, does it print something in /var/log/syslog when you try to connect?
[23:48] <jani_> i don't know about ACPI, but it did appear like BSD complained it was unable to reserve some memory ranges, too
[23:48] <jani_> in ACPI info
[23:49] <Daijoubu> yofel i'm connected right now but i used pppoeconf in terminal, when i create a DSL conenction in Kubuntu network manager it just sits there and it doesn't trigger
[23:49] <Daijoubu> in Gnome when i create that DSL connection it triggers and conencts
[23:49] <Alan> jani_: sounds like the BIOS is your culprit, with no specific workarounds in the kernel :(
[23:49] <jani_> Alan, and it
[23:49] <jani_> 's the only BIOS i can use :(
[23:50] <Alan> jani_: my previous build had a crap BIOS shipped with the motherboard.... memory accesses in the top few MB of the address range would take an appreciable fraction of a second, meaning that when i upgraded to 8GB of RAM i suddenly couldn't boot linux in less than a year
[23:50] <jani_> i mean, if i want to run the CPU at speeds higher than 800MHz
[23:51] <Alan> jani_: however, my point was you could downgrade the BIOS just to confirm the problem
[23:51] <Alan> if you can boot, but it runs at 800MHz... well it still boots
[23:51] <Alan> if the APCI doesn't barf all over you, you've double-confirmed the culprit
[23:51] <yofel> Daijoubu: with trigger you mean connect automatically? (I use a router so I'm not sure how the dsl settings work)
[23:51] <Alan> all we know right now is that it doesn't break if you ignore ACPI on the newest BIOS
[23:52] <jani_> Alan, heh, i wonder how that memory was mapped
[23:52] <Daijoubu> yofel: in Gnome when i create the DSL connection i select the Auto Connect and when i close it or restart it auto-dials, in Kubuntu when i create the same DSL connection and select Auto Connect, nothing happens, and if i restart nothing again.
[23:53] <jani_> but couldn't you just kill the range in kernel options?
[23:53] <Alan> jani_: it's annoying though, it just proves that they test it with windows and that's it...
[23:53] <Alan> jani_: could do, but there was a "beta" BIOS that fixed it
[23:53] <Alan> luckily
[23:53] <Alan> (although it didn't mention it in the release notes...)
[23:53] <yofel> Daijoubu: hm, then I'm clueless, maybe someone in #kubuntu-devel might know more
[23:53] <Daijoubu> yofel: ok thanks
[23:54] <jani_> Alan, what exactly i lost with ACPI=no?
[23:54] <Alan> jani_: at least the ability to suspend-to-RAM
[23:54] <jani_> big deal, it's going to be my file server
[23:55] <Alan> and possibly certain aspects of CPU frequency scaling / idling...
[23:55] <Alan> jani_: you have a 6-core fileserver O.o
[23:55] <jani_> although probably ZFS... how's btrfs these days? does it have scrub, raidz2 analog?
[23:55] <jani_> Alan, yes, re-encoding video on the fly might need some power
[23:56] <Alan> jani_: ah, fair enough
[23:56] <Alan> jani_: not so sure about filesystems... I was so tempted by ZFS, but it's kinda "sketchy" on linux still i think, and raidz doesn't support expansion...
[23:56] <jani_> ZFS is great, i mean, i've used it for 2 years on Solaris at work
[23:57] <jani_> i'm still very impressed with it
[23:57] <Alan> i'm sure it's great
[23:57] <Alan> and i'm sure it's very great on solaris
[23:57] <jani_> those instant snapshots too, zfs send/receive
[23:57] <jani_> could go on and on
[23:58] <Alan> but it's not really "on linux" yet, and the RAID isn't expandable!
[23:58] <Alan> the whole appeal for me is "it's better than RAID5"
[23:58] <Alan> but i can expand my RAID5 with more disks when i need
[23:58] <jani_> RAID5 is nono
[23:58] <jani_> RAID6 / raidz2 is so much safer
[23:59] <Alan> raid6 isn't much safer than raid5
[23:59] <Alan> just more expensive :P
[23:59] <jani_> that's what you say, until you lose a disk and then another one during a resilver - whole raid lost, oops...
[23:59] <Alan> (bearing in mind i don't tend to keep essential stuff on my fileserver, just a large media collection)