| === meetingology` is now known as meetingology | ||
| AlanBell | qu|x: purblind meaning partially sighted? | 11:51 |
|---|---|---|
| AlanBell | but yes, this channel is for everyone | 11:52 |
| qu|x | AlanBell: yes :) | 12:10 |
| Pendulum | http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic-is-going-bye-bye-soon.html haven't we been getting a lot of synaptic related questions recently? | 13:48 |
| Pendulum | (and I've confirmed with someone that the story is fairly accurate, although, my confirmer isn't sure if the timeline is 100% correct) | 13:49 |
| charlie-tca | They have been talking about Software Center replacing synaptic and aptitude for a while now | 14:03 |
| Pendulum | yeah | 14:11 |
| charlie-tca | I don't have the timeline for it, myself | 14:12 |
| Pendulum | I'm not sure anyone does | 14:12 |
| Pendulum | it seems to be a bit fuzzy | 14:13 |
| charlie-tca | heh, not surprising | 14:19 |
| charlie-tca | Seems to be another case of "let's allow everyone to guess what we are doing" | 14:19 |
| vish | oh! heh , paultag must have quoted that from me! he was asking the other day.. :p | 16:06 |
| vish | charlie-tca: Pendulum: actually, i'm not sure how to go to older records on the wiki > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=info , but it should be here , every release we keep postponing a few items to next release and replace synaptic when reasonable.. the plan for updates is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates | 16:19 |
| nigelb | Pendulum: isn't there a problem with webkit (which sc uses) which causes problem with accessibility? | 16:50 |
| * nigelb remembers an angry mail to -devel regarding that | 16:50 | |
| nigelb | charlie-tca: re:ubuntu website, we can talk to the website team :) | 17:15 |
| charlie-tca | I seem to be frustrated today. The theme we picked for Xubuntu was working, but it changed to black panels again, and now I can't see it. | 17:16 |
| nigelb | :( | 17:17 |
| charlie-tca | I can't distinguish these dark colors or light colors without good contrast | 17:17 |
| nigelb | :( | 17:17 |
| Pendulum | charlie-tca: I am all for us working for that | 17:19 |
| Pendulum | at the very least for the accessibility team pages | 17:19 |
| Pendulum | and if we could convince people of overall change, it'd also be good | 17:19 |
| charlie-tca | The days I can see are great! The days it blends together it gets crazy | 17:20 |
| nigelb | if we can at least have an accessible version of the site, it would be great | 17:21 |
| charlie-tca | It becomes quite a job trying to change all the links and text from the default and still keep it readable by those who use a speaking reader | 17:21 |
| nigelb | I agree | 17:22 |
| nigelb | As someone who works on web related stuff, most of the time, its focused on visual beauty than thought for screen readers :/ | 17:23 |
| charlie-tca | Agreed | 17:25 |
| charlie-tca | It isn't focused on readability, but rather on "pretty" | 17:25 |
| Pendulum | yeah | 17:26 |
| Pendulum | well and "fancy" | 17:26 |
| Pendulum | like all the people who are so excited about stack exchange | 17:27 |
| Pendulum | which as far as I can tell is unlikely to be screen-reader usable | 17:27 |
| Pendulum | because it's all JS | 17:28 |
| charlie-tca | yup | 17:28 |
| charlie-tca | Of course, just focusing on visual readability will help improve things, if we can keep them from adding more JS to the wiki. | 17:29 |
| charlie-tca | nigelb: did you look at the wiki since I made a couple of changes? | 17:29 |
| nigelb | charlie-tca: I'm totaly swamped until Thu | 17:30 |
| charlie-tca | Okay | 17:31 |
| nigelb | Going to be up all night too | 17:31 |
| AlanBell | charlie-tca: can you give a quick opinion on the readabilty of this moin wiki theme: http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw | 17:55 |
| charlie-tca | I like it | 17:56 |
| AlanBell | great | 17:56 |
| charlie-tca | The text shows very well, and the reverse links work great! | 17:56 |
| qu|x | reverse links? | 17:57 |
| AlanBell | the white on aubergine when you hover over a link? | 17:57 |
| qu|x | Somethink like bit.ly or tiny.url? | 17:58 |
| charlie-tca | yes, when you hilight the link, it reverses the colors | 17:58 |
| charlie-tca | yup | 17:58 |
| AlanBell | ok, interesting, didn't know that was a help | 17:58 |
| nigelb | AlanBell: read scroll back on what charlie was talking about colors :) | 17:59 |
| AlanBell | that prompted my question | 17:59 |
| charlie-tca | The only thing that is difficult to see is the grey/pink text in the upper right. I think it is meant to be greyed out next to the search box. | 17:59 |
| AlanBell | charlie-tca: yes, it is greyed out until you type something in the search box, then the contrast increases | 18:00 |
| AlanBell | apparently a standard moin feature | 18:00 |
| charlie-tca | That works then | 18:00 |
| charlie-tca | I complained about the wiki when they changed the colors to the dark brown/light brown theme, but it went un-noticed because it looks "pretty" | 18:03 |
| charlie-tca | You did all that as admin, right? | 18:08 |
| AlanBell | this is just a development site | 18:09 |
| AlanBell | running on my laptop | 18:09 |
| AlanBell | it is a standard moin theme and the theory is to change this to it http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org | 18:10 |
| AlanBell | no particular reason why it couldn't be contributed to wiki.ubuntu.com as well | 18:10 |
| charlie-tca | yes, it is just much easier to do that as admin than as a user | 18:10 |
| AlanBell | if you are logged into the wiki you can choose your preferred theme | 18:12 |
| charlie-tca | That doesn't fix things when it is hard to see where to do that | 18:15 |
| charlie-tca | However, if we has a good theme, maybe we can get it added and changed to default for accessibility only | 18:15 |
| charlie-tca | That is how the help wiki did it | 18:15 |
| AlanBell | I agree, I was just thinking that if I am going to be talking to people about installing themes it would be a good opportunity to get a high contrast one in the list | 18:16 |
| charlie-tca | wow! That would be nice | 18:16 |
| AlanBell | actually there is a new theme on the main wiki already called "light" which is somewhat similar to the one I have been working on | 18:18 |
| AlanBell | http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente perhaps | 18:21 |
| charlie-tca | Well, actually, that grey text on grey background sucks | 18:22 |
| charlie-tca | classic is pretty good, but if I recall correctly, you lose some features that Ubuntu added when you use it | 18:23 |
| charlie-tca | Unfortunately, the only theme that shows things properly with the changes made to moinmoin by Ubuntu is the Ubuntu theme | 18:30 |
| Pendulum | charlie-tca: are you cool with my bringing some of these concerns to people like jono and the design team people? | 18:34 |
| charlie-tca | sure | 18:34 |
| charlie-tca | I tried when ayatana first formed, but they disregarded everything brought up that was not pretty enough | 18:35 |
| Pendulum | jono because he needs to understand the level of institutional attitudinal change and the design team because they seem genuinely interested in making accessibility work | 18:35 |
| Pendulum | hmm... I guess I should get involved in ayatana | 18:35 |
| charlie-tca | And I will even try to give any answers I can | 18:35 |
| Pendulum | because pretty is fine, but if users can't use it, there's a problem | 18:36 |
| AlanBell | charlie-tca: do you have an example of something in the wiki that is specific to the ubuntu theme? | 18:36 |
| charlie-tca | I dropped ayatana. They aren't interested in how usable it is, but rather seemed to be interested in visual appearance | 18:36 |
| charlie-tca | TOC | 18:36 |
| charlie-tca | It fails in every other theme | 18:36 |
| charlie-tca | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility | 18:37 |
| charlie-tca | If you switch themes and read this, it shows up nicely | 18:37 |
| charlie-tca | and it applies to the entire wiki | 18:37 |
| AlanBell | hmm, I see some broken image links | 18:43 |
| AlanBell | anyhow, Pendulum I think it would be good to get a specifically accessible theme on the u-w wiki along with the one elky designed, then work on getting it into the main wiki | 18:44 |
| Pendulum | *nods* | 18:46 |
| Pendulum | I think I'm also going to see, since these are obviously things we want on our blueprint, poke both ivanka and jono about trying to make it to our UDS session | 18:47 |
| Pendulum | because jono's offered to advocate where he can | 18:47 |
| AlanBell | yup | 18:47 |
| Pendulum | and ivanka should be aware of how big an issue things like this are | 18:47 |
| Pendulum | and I know how frustrating accessibility stuff is as a user | 18:48 |
| Pendulum | a BBC site aimed at disabled people muffed it up majorly when redesigning their site and message boards (so much so that I nearly had to leave due to the visual design changes) | 18:49 |
| Pendulum | and that's with their having 4 different colour profiles that they claimed had been tested on users! | 18:49 |
| charlie-tca | That would be great | 18:51 |
| charlie-tca | I tried for a year before I built this theme I use on my own website - http://keepingdreams.com/ | 18:52 |
| Pendulum | *nods* | 18:52 |
| charlie-tca | and then it fails in windows | 18:52 |
| Pendulum | aww :( | 18:52 |
| charlie-tca | heh | 18:53 |
| Pendulum | bloody IE | 18:53 |
| charlie-tca | yup | 18:53 |
| charlie-tca | but, I kind of think if they want to use IE, I don't really care anymore | 18:53 |
| Pendulum | btw, which of the themes was I supposed to see when I clicked on that :) | 18:54 |
| Pendulum | since you also have something that I really like in that there's a choice of themes | 18:54 |
| Pendulum | (i'm also a fan of websites that give you variable type sizes so you can go as big or small as you want) | 18:54 |
| charlie-tca | I use kubrickflex-blue | 18:55 |
| Pendulum | *nods* | 18:55 |
| Pendulum | that's the one I like of the 3 :) | 18:55 |
| charlie-tca | but I wrote the thing, too | 18:55 |
| Pendulum | (I do well with blues compared to a lot of other colours) | 18:55 |
| Pendulum | that's because you have skills :P | 18:55 |
| charlie-tca | I do too | 18:55 |
| Pendulum | I don't | 18:55 |
| AlanBell | locking the type size is the *worst* thing a website can do, that is intentionally breaking stuff | 18:55 |
| charlie-tca | I don't have the skills now. I did have them | 18:56 |
| charlie-tca | Yes, and it is really easy not to lock the type sizes. | 18:56 |
| Pendulum | I have to at some point get a domain and move my blog and find a theme I like that's also accessible (which gets difficult because I really want a theme that's based in pink) | 18:56 |
| AlanBell | I have had clients ask me to do that in the past so users can't "mess up their carefully designed layout" | 18:56 |
| * AlanBell declined | 18:56 | |
| Pendulum | *nods* | 18:56 |
| Pendulum | but also sites that actually offer multiple type sizes by clicking buttons | 18:57 |
| charlie-tca | They don't seem to realize, if I can't read it, I am not using it. | 18:57 |
| AlanBell | http://theopenlearningcentre.com/ <- buttons at the top | 18:57 |
| charlie-tca | Mine was all based on my own ability to see. If I can't change font sizes and colors, I lose. | 18:58 |
| Pendulum | yeah | 18:58 |
| Pendulum | AlanBell: that's because you get it | 18:58 |
| Pendulum | sadly you are in the minority :( | 18:58 |
| AlanBell | I think Alan Lord designed that actually | 18:58 |
| charlie-tca | Oh, that! Yeah, I thought about it, but in Firefox, Ctrl+plus key increases fonts nicely | 18:58 |
| AlanBell | it does, a lesser needed feature these days | 18:59 |
| Pendulum | yeah, but who wants to ctrl+plus key or ctrl+minus key all the time | 18:59 |
| AlanBell | ctrl+mouse wheel is what I generally use (normally for zooming out to see the whole thing) | 18:59 |
| charlie-tca | me. It is necessary to read a lot of websites now | 19:00 |
| Pendulum | well, my point is more that some sites use bigger fonts and some user smaller | 19:00 |
| charlie-tca | of course, I also set my minimum fonts to 12pt | 19:00 |
| Pendulum | *use | 19:00 |
| charlie-tca | Never seen one that was too big for me | 19:00 |
| charlie-tca | Pendulum: I think a very light pink background with a black font might work | 19:01 |
| Pendulum | fair enough | 19:01 |
| Pendulum | charlie-tca: yeah, i'm thinking black on pink and just figure out what shade of pink is best | 19:01 |
| AlanBell | lots of ebay adverts are in *huge* fonts, I think people expect that to get more attention or something | 19:01 |
| charlie-tca | true | 19:02 |
| Pendulum | AlanBell: those also tend to have busy colours and confuse my brain :-/ | 19:02 |
| charlie-tca | They don't realize that the more they are used, the less they attract | 19:02 |
| charlie-tca | Pendulum: that Table Of Contents thing fails on all the wiki pages | 19:07 |
| Pendulum | okay, i'm off to see if my powerchair will make it to town and back. catch y'all later :) | 19:18 |
| charlie-tca | good luck | 19:20 |
| AlanBell | charlie-tca: I expect it is a simple fix to get the toc working | 19:21 |
| charlie-tca | doesn't seem to be. When they upgraded moinmoin, it was broken. The fix is to not use it or change themes | 19:21 |
| charlie-tca | The only fix I have seen is to allow the TOC to have the entire page width | 19:23 |
| charlie-tca | Unfortunately, it is one of the Ubuntu specific changes to moinmoin that causes it. | 19:24 |
| AlanBell | not entirely sure which bit you mean though, this is what I see in the modern theme: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/toc.png | 19:26 |
| charlie-tca | Correct. The box labeled Contents, should not have the grey shaded box in a white box. The text can be no longer than the gray portion. It will wrap inside the gray box only | 19:27 |
| AlanBell | ok | 19:27 |
| charlie-tca | If you shorten the width of the page, it will be seen, even down to single words per line, but the white box is still there | 19:28 |
| charlie-tca | In the Ubuntu theme, the gray and white boxes are equal and used fully | 19:30 |
| AlanBell | yeah, see what you mean, and obviously it shows up more with bigger fonts. It is an easy fix to the theme to make. | 19:35 |
| AlanBell | but obviously not one we can make without access to the theme | 19:36 |
| AlanBell | I will install http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente on my laptop later | 19:36 |
| AlanBell | see if I can make that work with it | 19:37 |
| AlanBell | http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility not quite right in that theme either | 19:38 |
| charlie-tca | Nothing of the pages will be right in any theme except Ubuntu. | 19:41 |
| charlie-tca | I used modern theme until they upgraded the wiki a year or two ago | 19:42 |
| charlie-tca | I also tried everything I could to make that work. | 19:42 |
| * charlie-tca ran moinmoin at home for a few years | 19:43 | |
| AlanBell | yeah, I can see how to fix it | 19:56 |
| charlie-tca | :-) | 20:01 |
| charlie-tca | I had to stop trying a while back. Concentrated on just being able to do anything for a while | 20:02 |
| AlanBell | http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility look OK? | 20:07 |
| charlie-tca | no | 20:11 |
| charlie-tca | http://imagebin.org/112905 | 20:11 |
| charlie-tca | Sorry, but that looks the same to me | 20:16 |
| charlie-tca | wait | 20:16 |
| charlie-tca | what happened now. It just reloaded properly | 20:16 |
| AlanBell | caching probably | 20:17 |
| charlie-tca | I like that | 20:17 |
| charlie-tca | Is that modern, too? | 20:17 |
| charlie-tca | ignore that pastebin | 20:18 |
| * charlie-tca is starting to hate firefox 3.6.9 | 20:19 | |
| charlie-tca | it doesn't always download the page again, but it caches everything and displays out of date things | 20:19 |
| charlie-tca | even when I reload the page | 20:20 |
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