=== meetingology` is now known as meetingology
AlanBellqu|x: purblind meaning partially sighted?11:51
AlanBellbut yes, this channel is for everyone11:52
qu|xAlanBell: yes :)12:10
Pendulumhttp://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic-is-going-bye-bye-soon.html haven't we been getting a lot of synaptic related questions recently?13:48
Pendulum(and I've confirmed with someone that the story is fairly accurate, although, my confirmer isn't sure if the timeline is 100% correct)13:49
charlie-tcaThey have been talking about Software Center replacing synaptic and aptitude for a while now14:03
charlie-tcaI don't have the timeline for it, myself14:12
PendulumI'm not sure anyone does14:12
Pendulumit seems to be a bit fuzzy14:13
charlie-tcaheh, not surprising14:19
charlie-tcaSeems to be another case of "let's allow everyone to guess what we are doing"14:19
vishoh! heh , paultag must have quoted that from me! he was asking the other day.. :p16:06
vishcharlie-tca: Pendulum: actually, i'm not sure how to go to older records on the wiki > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=info , but it should be here , every release we keep postponing a few items to next release and replace synaptic when reasonable.. the plan for updates is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates16:19
nigelbPendulum: isn't there a problem with webkit (which sc uses) which causes problem with accessibility?16:50
* nigelb remembers an angry mail to -devel regarding that16:50
nigelbcharlie-tca: re:ubuntu website, we can talk to the website team :)17:15
charlie-tcaI seem to be frustrated today. The theme we picked for Xubuntu was working, but it changed to black panels again, and now I can't see it.17:16
charlie-tcaI can't distinguish these dark colors or light colors without good contrast17:17
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I am all for us working for that17:19
Pendulumat the very least for the accessibility team pages17:19
Pendulumand if we could convince people of overall change, it'd also be good17:19
charlie-tcaThe days I can see are great! The days it blends together it gets crazy17:20
nigelbif we can at least have an accessible version of the site, it would be great17:21
charlie-tcaIt becomes quite a job trying to change all the links and text from the default and still keep it readable by those who use a speaking reader17:21
nigelbI agree17:22
nigelbAs someone who works on web related stuff, most of the time, its focused on visual beauty than thought for screen readers :/17:23
charlie-tcaIt isn't focused on readability, but rather on "pretty"17:25
Pendulumwell and "fancy"17:26
Pendulumlike all the people who are so excited about stack exchange17:27
Pendulumwhich as far as I can tell is unlikely to be screen-reader usable17:27
Pendulumbecause it's all JS17:28
charlie-tcaOf course, just focusing on visual readability will help improve things, if we can keep them from adding more JS to the wiki.17:29
charlie-tcanigelb: did you look at the wiki since I made a couple of changes?17:29
nigelbcharlie-tca: I'm totaly swamped until Thu17:30
nigelbGoing to be up all night too17:31
AlanBellcharlie-tca: can you give a quick opinion on the readabilty of this moin wiki theme: http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw17:55
charlie-tcaI like it17:56
charlie-tcaThe text shows very well, and the reverse links work great!17:56
qu|xreverse links?17:57
AlanBellthe white on aubergine when you hover over a link?17:57
qu|xSomethink like bit.ly or tiny.url?17:58
charlie-tcayes, when you hilight the link, it reverses the colors17:58
AlanBellok, interesting, didn't know that was a help17:58
nigelbAlanBell: read scroll back on what charlie was talking about colors :)17:59
AlanBellthat prompted my question17:59
charlie-tcaThe only thing that is difficult to see is the grey/pink text in the upper right. I think it is meant to be greyed out next to the search box.17:59
AlanBellcharlie-tca: yes, it is greyed out until you type something in the search box, then the contrast increases18:00
AlanBellapparently a standard moin feature18:00
charlie-tcaThat works then18:00
charlie-tcaI complained about the wiki when they changed the colors to the dark brown/light brown theme, but it went un-noticed because it looks "pretty"18:03
charlie-tcaYou did all that as admin, right?18:08
AlanBellthis is just a development site18:09
AlanBellrunning on my laptop18:09
AlanBellit is a standard moin theme and the theory is to change this to it http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org18:10
AlanBellno particular reason why it couldn't be contributed to wiki.ubuntu.com as well18:10
charlie-tcayes, it is just much easier to do that as admin than as a user18:10
AlanBellif you are logged into the wiki you can choose your preferred theme18:12
charlie-tcaThat doesn't fix things when it is hard to see where to do that18:15
charlie-tcaHowever, if we has a good theme, maybe we can get it added and changed to default for accessibility only18:15
charlie-tcaThat is how the help wiki did it18:15
AlanBellI agree, I was just thinking that if I am going to be talking to people about installing themes it would be a good opportunity to get a high contrast one in the list18:16
charlie-tcawow! That would be nice18:16
AlanBellactually there is a new theme on the main wiki already called "light" which is somewhat similar to the one I have been working on18:18
AlanBellhttp://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente perhaps18:21
charlie-tcaWell, actually, that grey text on grey background sucks18:22
charlie-tcaclassic is pretty good, but if I recall correctly, you lose some features that Ubuntu added when you use it18:23
charlie-tcaUnfortunately, the only theme that shows things properly with the changes made to moinmoin by Ubuntu is the Ubuntu theme18:30
Pendulumcharlie-tca: are you cool with my bringing some of these concerns to people like jono and the design team people?18:34
charlie-tcaI tried when ayatana first formed, but they disregarded everything brought up that was not pretty enough18:35
Pendulumjono because he needs to understand the level of institutional attitudinal change and the design team because they seem genuinely interested in making accessibility work18:35
Pendulumhmm... I guess I should get involved in ayatana 18:35
charlie-tcaAnd I will even try to give any answers I can18:35
Pendulumbecause pretty is fine, but if users can't use it, there's a problem18:36
AlanBellcharlie-tca: do you have an example of something in the wiki that is specific to the ubuntu theme?18:36
charlie-tcaI dropped ayatana. They aren't interested in how usable it is, but rather seemed to be interested in visual appearance18:36
charlie-tcaIt fails in every other theme18:36
charlie-tcaIf you switch themes and read this, it shows up nicely18:37
charlie-tcaand it applies to the entire wiki18:37
AlanBellhmm, I see some broken image links18:43
AlanBellanyhow, Pendulum I think it would be good to get a specifically accessible theme on the u-w wiki along with the one elky designed, then work on getting it into the main wiki18:44
PendulumI think I'm also going to see, since these are obviously things we want on our blueprint, poke both ivanka and jono about trying to make it to our UDS session18:47
Pendulumbecause jono's offered to advocate where he can18:47
Pendulumand ivanka should be aware of how big an issue things like this are18:47
Pendulumand I know how frustrating accessibility stuff is as a user18:48
Penduluma BBC site aimed at disabled people muffed it up majorly when redesigning their site and message boards (so much so that I nearly had to leave due to the visual design changes)18:49
Pendulumand that's with their having 4 different colour profiles that they claimed had been tested on users!18:49
charlie-tcaThat would be great18:51
charlie-tcaI tried for a year before I built this theme I use on my own website - http://keepingdreams.com/18:52
charlie-tcaand then it fails in windows18:52
Pendulumaww :(18:52
Pendulumbloody IE18:53
charlie-tcabut, I kind of think if they want to use IE, I don't really care anymore18:53
Pendulumbtw, which of the themes was I supposed to see when I clicked on that :)18:54
Pendulumsince you also have something that I really like in that there's a choice of themes18:54
Pendulum(i'm also a fan of websites that give you variable type sizes so you can go as big or small as you want)18:54
charlie-tcaI use kubrickflex-blue18:55
Pendulumthat's the one I like of the 3 :)18:55
charlie-tcabut I wrote the thing, too18:55
Pendulum(I do well with blues compared to a lot of other colours)18:55
Pendulumthat's because you have skills :P18:55
charlie-tcaI do too18:55
PendulumI don't18:55
AlanBelllocking the type size is the *worst* thing a website can do, that is intentionally breaking stuff18:55
charlie-tcaI don't have the skills now. I did have them18:56
charlie-tcaYes, and it is really easy not to lock the type sizes.18:56
PendulumI have to at some point get a domain and move my blog and find a theme I like that's also accessible (which gets difficult because I really want a theme that's based in pink)18:56
AlanBellI have had clients ask me to do that in the past so users can't "mess up their carefully designed layout"18:56
* AlanBell declined18:56
Pendulumbut also sites that actually offer multiple type sizes by clicking buttons18:57
charlie-tcaThey don't seem to realize, if I can't read it, I am not using it.18:57
AlanBellhttp://theopenlearningcentre.com/ <- buttons at the top18:57
charlie-tcaMine was all based on my own ability to see. If I can't change font sizes and colors, I lose.18:58
PendulumAlanBell: that's because you get it18:58
Pendulumsadly you are in the minority :(18:58
AlanBellI think Alan Lord designed that actually18:58
charlie-tcaOh, that! Yeah, I thought about it, but in Firefox, Ctrl+plus key increases fonts nicely18:58
AlanBellit does, a lesser needed feature these days18:59
Pendulumyeah, but who wants to ctrl+plus key or ctrl+minus key all the time18:59
AlanBellctrl+mouse wheel is what I generally use (normally for zooming out to see the whole thing)18:59
charlie-tcame. It is necessary to read a lot of websites now19:00
Pendulumwell, my point is more that some sites use bigger fonts and some user smaller19:00
charlie-tcaof course, I also set my minimum fonts to 12pt19:00
charlie-tcaNever seen one that was too big for me19:00
charlie-tcaPendulum: I think a very light pink background with a black font might work19:01
Pendulumfair enough19:01
Pendulumcharlie-tca: yeah, i'm thinking black on pink and just figure out what shade of pink is best19:01
AlanBelllots of ebay adverts are in *huge* fonts, I think people expect that to get more attention or something19:01
PendulumAlanBell: those also tend to have busy colours and confuse my brain :-/19:02
charlie-tcaThey don't realize that the more they are used, the less they attract19:02
charlie-tcaPendulum: that Table Of Contents thing fails on all the wiki pages19:07
Pendulumokay, i'm off to see if my powerchair will make it to town and back. catch y'all later :)19:18
charlie-tcagood luck19:20
AlanBellcharlie-tca: I expect it is a simple fix to get the toc working19:21
charlie-tcadoesn't seem to be. When they upgraded moinmoin, it was broken. The fix is to not use it or change themes19:21
charlie-tcaThe only fix I have seen is to allow the TOC to have the entire page width19:23
charlie-tcaUnfortunately, it is one of the Ubuntu specific changes to moinmoin that causes it.19:24
AlanBellnot entirely sure which bit you mean though, this is what I see in the modern theme: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/toc.png19:26
charlie-tcaCorrect. The box labeled Contents, should not have the grey shaded box in a white box. The text can be no longer than the gray portion. It will wrap inside the gray box only19:27
charlie-tcaIf you shorten the width of the page, it will be seen, even down to single words per line, but the white box is still there19:28
charlie-tcaIn the Ubuntu theme, the gray and white boxes are equal and used fully19:30
AlanBellyeah, see what you mean, and obviously it shows up more with bigger fonts. It is an easy fix to the theme to make.19:35
AlanBellbut obviously not one we can make without access to the theme19:36
AlanBellI will install http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente on my laptop later19:36
AlanBellsee if I can make that work with it19:37
AlanBellhttp://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility not quite right in that theme either19:38
charlie-tcaNothing of the pages will be right in any theme except Ubuntu. 19:41
charlie-tcaI used modern theme until they upgraded the wiki a year or two ago19:42
charlie-tcaI also tried everything I could to make that work.19:42
* charlie-tca ran moinmoin at home for a few years19:43
AlanBellyeah, I can see how to fix it19:56
charlie-tcaI had to stop trying a while back. Concentrated on just being able to do anything for a while20:02
AlanBellhttp://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility look OK?20:07
charlie-tcaSorry, but that looks the same to me20:16
charlie-tcawhat happened now. It just reloaded properly20:16
AlanBellcaching probably20:17
charlie-tcaI like that20:17
charlie-tcaIs that modern, too?20:17
charlie-tcaignore that pastebin20:18
* charlie-tca is starting to hate firefox 3.6.920:19
charlie-tcait doesn't always download the page again, but it caches everything and displays out of date things20:19
charlie-tcaeven when I reload the page20:20

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