[11:51] <AlanBell> qu|x: purblind meaning partially sighted?
[11:52] <AlanBell> but yes, this channel is for everyone
[12:10] <qu|x> AlanBell: yes :)
[13:48] <Pendulum> http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic-is-going-bye-bye-soon.html haven't we been getting a lot of synaptic related questions recently?
[13:49] <Pendulum> (and I've confirmed with someone that the story is fairly accurate, although, my confirmer isn't sure if the timeline is 100% correct)
[14:03] <charlie-tca> They have been talking about Software Center replacing synaptic and aptitude for a while now
[14:11] <Pendulum> yeah
[14:12] <charlie-tca> I don't have the timeline for it, myself
[14:12] <Pendulum> I'm not sure anyone does
[14:13] <Pendulum> it seems to be a bit fuzzy
[14:19] <charlie-tca> heh, not surprising
[14:19] <charlie-tca> Seems to be another case of "let's allow everyone to guess what we are doing"
[16:06] <vish> oh! heh , paultag must have quoted that from me! he was asking the other day.. :p
[16:19] <vish> charlie-tca: Pendulum: actually, i'm not sure how to go to older records on the wiki > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=info , but it should be here , every release we keep postponing a few items to next release and replace synaptic when reasonable.. the plan for updates is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates
[16:50] <nigelb> Pendulum: isn't there a problem with webkit (which sc uses) which causes problem with accessibility?
[16:50]  * nigelb remembers an angry mail to -devel regarding that
[17:15] <nigelb> charlie-tca: re:ubuntu website, we can talk to the website team :)
[17:16] <charlie-tca> I seem to be frustrated today. The theme we picked for Xubuntu was working, but it changed to black panels again, and now I can't see it.
[17:17] <nigelb> :(
[17:17] <charlie-tca> I can't distinguish these dark colors or light colors without good contrast
[17:17] <nigelb> :(
[17:19] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I am all for us working for that
[17:19] <Pendulum> at the very least for the accessibility team pages
[17:19] <Pendulum> and if we could convince people of overall change, it'd also be good
[17:20] <charlie-tca> The days I can see are great! The days it blends together it gets crazy
[17:21] <nigelb> if we can at least have an accessible version of the site, it would be great
[17:21] <charlie-tca> It becomes quite a job trying to change all the links and text from the default and still keep it readable by those who use a speaking reader
[17:22] <nigelb> I agree
[17:23] <nigelb> As someone who works on web related stuff, most of the time, its focused on visual beauty than thought for screen readers :/
[17:25] <charlie-tca> Agreed
[17:25] <charlie-tca> It isn't focused on readability, but rather on "pretty"
[17:26] <Pendulum> yeah
[17:26] <Pendulum> well and "fancy"
[17:27] <Pendulum> like all the people who are so excited about stack exchange
[17:27] <Pendulum> which as far as I can tell is unlikely to be screen-reader usable
[17:28] <Pendulum> because it's all JS
[17:28] <charlie-tca> yup
[17:29] <charlie-tca> Of course, just focusing on visual readability will help improve things, if we can keep them from adding more JS to the wiki.
[17:29] <charlie-tca> nigelb: did you look at the wiki since I made a couple of changes?
[17:30] <nigelb> charlie-tca: I'm totaly swamped until Thu
[17:31] <charlie-tca> Okay
[17:31] <nigelb> Going to be up all night too
[17:55] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: can you give a quick opinion on the readabilty of this moin wiki theme: http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw
[17:56] <charlie-tca> I like it
[17:56] <AlanBell> great
[17:56] <charlie-tca> The text shows very well, and the reverse links work great!
[17:57] <qu|x> reverse links?
[17:57] <AlanBell> the white on aubergine when you hover over a link?
[17:58] <qu|x> Somethink like bit.ly or tiny.url?
[17:58] <charlie-tca> yes, when you hilight the link, it reverses the colors
[17:58] <charlie-tca> yup
[17:58] <AlanBell> ok, interesting, didn't know that was a help
[17:59] <nigelb> AlanBell: read scroll back on what charlie was talking about colors :)
[17:59] <AlanBell> that prompted my question
[17:59] <charlie-tca> The only thing that is difficult to see is the grey/pink text in the upper right. I think it is meant to be greyed out next to the search box.
[18:00] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: yes, it is greyed out until you type something in the search box, then the contrast increases
[18:00] <AlanBell> apparently a standard moin feature
[18:00] <charlie-tca> That works then
[18:03] <charlie-tca> I complained about the wiki when they changed the colors to the dark brown/light brown theme, but it went un-noticed because it looks "pretty"
[18:08] <charlie-tca> You did all that as admin, right?
[18:09] <AlanBell> this is just a development site
[18:09] <AlanBell> running on my laptop
[18:10] <AlanBell> it is a standard moin theme and the theory is to change this to it http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org
[18:10] <AlanBell> no particular reason why it couldn't be contributed to wiki.ubuntu.com as well
[18:10] <charlie-tca> yes, it is just much easier to do that as admin than as a user
[18:12] <AlanBell> if you are logged into the wiki you can choose your preferred theme
[18:15] <charlie-tca> That doesn't fix things when it is hard to see where to do that
[18:15] <charlie-tca> However, if we has a good theme, maybe we can get it added and changed to default for accessibility only
[18:15] <charlie-tca> That is how the help wiki did it
[18:16] <AlanBell> I agree, I was just thinking that if I am going to be talking to people about installing themes it would be a good opportunity to get a high contrast one in the list
[18:16] <charlie-tca> wow! That would be nice
[18:18] <AlanBell> actually there is a new theme on the main wiki already called "light" which is somewhat similar to the one I have been working on
[18:21] <AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente perhaps
[18:22] <charlie-tca> Well, actually, that grey text on grey background sucks
[18:23] <charlie-tca> classic is pretty good, but if I recall correctly, you lose some features that Ubuntu added when you use it
[18:30] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, the only theme that shows things properly with the changes made to moinmoin by Ubuntu is the Ubuntu theme
[18:34] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you cool with my bringing some of these concerns to people like jono and the design team people?
[18:34] <charlie-tca> sure
[18:35] <charlie-tca> I tried when ayatana first formed, but they disregarded everything brought up that was not pretty enough
[18:35] <Pendulum> jono because he needs to understand the level of institutional attitudinal change and the design team because they seem genuinely interested in making accessibility work
[18:35] <Pendulum> hmm... I guess I should get involved in ayatana 
[18:35] <charlie-tca> And I will even try to give any answers I can
[18:36] <Pendulum> because pretty is fine, but if users can't use it, there's a problem
[18:36] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: do you have an example of something in the wiki that is specific to the ubuntu theme?
[18:36] <charlie-tca> I dropped ayatana. They aren't interested in how usable it is, but rather seemed to be interested in visual appearance
[18:36] <charlie-tca> TOC
[18:36] <charlie-tca> It fails in every other theme
[18:37] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
[18:37] <charlie-tca> If you switch themes and read this, it shows up nicely
[18:37] <charlie-tca> and it applies to the entire wiki
[18:43] <AlanBell> hmm, I see some broken image links
[18:44] <AlanBell> anyhow, Pendulum I think it would be good to get a specifically accessible theme on the u-w wiki along with the one elky designed, then work on getting it into the main wiki
[18:46] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:47] <Pendulum> I think I'm also going to see, since these are obviously things we want on our blueprint, poke both ivanka and jono about trying to make it to our UDS session
[18:47] <Pendulum> because jono's offered to advocate where he can
[18:47] <AlanBell> yup
[18:47] <Pendulum> and ivanka should be aware of how big an issue things like this are
[18:48] <Pendulum> and I know how frustrating accessibility stuff is as a user
[18:49] <Pendulum> a BBC site aimed at disabled people muffed it up majorly when redesigning their site and message boards (so much so that I nearly had to leave due to the visual design changes)
[18:49] <Pendulum> and that's with their having 4 different colour profiles that they claimed had been tested on users!
[18:51] <charlie-tca> That would be great
[18:52] <charlie-tca> I tried for a year before I built this theme I use on my own website - http://keepingdreams.com/
[18:52] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:52] <charlie-tca> and then it fails in windows
[18:52] <Pendulum> aww :(
[18:53] <charlie-tca> heh
[18:53] <Pendulum> bloody IE
[18:53] <charlie-tca> yup
[18:53] <charlie-tca> but, I kind of think if they want to use IE, I don't really care anymore
[18:54] <Pendulum> btw, which of the themes was I supposed to see when I clicked on that :)
[18:54] <Pendulum> since you also have something that I really like in that there's a choice of themes
[18:54] <Pendulum> (i'm also a fan of websites that give you variable type sizes so you can go as big or small as you want)
[18:55] <charlie-tca> I use kubrickflex-blue
[18:55] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:55] <Pendulum> that's the one I like of the 3 :)
[18:55] <charlie-tca> but I wrote the thing, too
[18:55] <Pendulum> (I do well with blues compared to a lot of other colours)
[18:55] <Pendulum> that's because you have skills :P
[18:55] <charlie-tca> I do too
[18:55] <Pendulum> I don't
[18:55] <AlanBell> locking the type size is the *worst* thing a website can do, that is intentionally breaking stuff
[18:56] <charlie-tca> I don't have the skills now. I did have them
[18:56] <charlie-tca> Yes, and it is really easy not to lock the type sizes.
[18:56] <Pendulum> I have to at some point get a domain and move my blog and find a theme I like that's also accessible (which gets difficult because I really want a theme that's based in pink)
[18:56] <AlanBell> I have had clients ask me to do that in the past so users can't "mess up their carefully designed layout"
[18:56]  * AlanBell declined
[18:56] <Pendulum> *nods*
[18:57] <Pendulum> but also sites that actually offer multiple type sizes by clicking buttons
[18:57] <charlie-tca> They don't seem to realize, if I can't read it, I am not using it.
[18:57] <AlanBell> http://theopenlearningcentre.com/ <- buttons at the top
[18:58] <charlie-tca> Mine was all based on my own ability to see. If I can't change font sizes and colors, I lose.
[18:58] <Pendulum> yeah
[18:58] <Pendulum> AlanBell: that's because you get it
[18:58] <Pendulum> sadly you are in the minority :(
[18:58] <AlanBell> I think Alan Lord designed that actually
[18:58] <charlie-tca> Oh, that! Yeah, I thought about it, but in Firefox, Ctrl+plus key increases fonts nicely
[18:59] <AlanBell> it does, a lesser needed feature these days
[18:59] <Pendulum> yeah, but who wants to ctrl+plus key or ctrl+minus key all the time
[18:59] <AlanBell> ctrl+mouse wheel is what I generally use (normally for zooming out to see the whole thing)
[19:00] <charlie-tca> me. It is necessary to read a lot of websites now
[19:00] <Pendulum> well, my point is more that some sites use bigger fonts and some user smaller
[19:00] <charlie-tca> of course, I also set my minimum fonts to 12pt
[19:00] <Pendulum> *use
[19:00] <charlie-tca> Never seen one that was too big for me
[19:01] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: I think a very light pink background with a black font might work
[19:01] <Pendulum> fair enough
[19:01] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: yeah, i'm thinking black on pink and just figure out what shade of pink is best
[19:01] <AlanBell> lots of ebay adverts are in *huge* fonts, I think people expect that to get more attention or something
[19:02] <charlie-tca> true
[19:02] <Pendulum> AlanBell: those also tend to have busy colours and confuse my brain :-/
[19:02] <charlie-tca> They don't realize that the more they are used, the less they attract
[19:07] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: that Table Of Contents thing fails on all the wiki pages
[19:18] <Pendulum> okay, i'm off to see if my powerchair will make it to town and back. catch y'all later :)
[19:20] <charlie-tca> good luck
[19:21] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: I expect it is a simple fix to get the toc working
[19:21] <charlie-tca> doesn't seem to be. When they upgraded moinmoin, it was broken. The fix is to not use it or change themes
[19:23] <charlie-tca> The only fix I have seen is to allow the TOC to have the entire page width
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, it is one of the Ubuntu specific changes to moinmoin that causes it.
[19:26] <AlanBell> not entirely sure which bit you mean though, this is what I see in the modern theme: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/toc.png
[19:27] <charlie-tca> Correct. The box labeled Contents, should not have the grey shaded box in a white box. The text can be no longer than the gray portion. It will wrap inside the gray box only
[19:27] <AlanBell> ok
[19:28] <charlie-tca> If you shorten the width of the page, it will be seen, even down to single words per line, but the white box is still there
[19:30] <charlie-tca> In the Ubuntu theme, the gray and white boxes are equal and used fully
[19:35] <AlanBell> yeah, see what you mean, and obviously it shows up more with bigger fonts. It is an easy fix to the theme to make.
[19:36] <AlanBell> but obviously not one we can make without access to the theme
[19:36] <AlanBell> I will install http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente on my laptop later
[19:37] <AlanBell> see if I can make that work with it
[19:38] <AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility not quite right in that theme either
[19:41] <charlie-tca> Nothing of the pages will be right in any theme except Ubuntu. 
[19:42] <charlie-tca> I used modern theme until they upgraded the wiki a year or two ago
[19:42] <charlie-tca> I also tried everything I could to make that work.
[19:43]  * charlie-tca ran moinmoin at home for a few years
[19:56] <AlanBell> yeah, I can see how to fix it
[20:01] <charlie-tca> :-)
[20:02] <charlie-tca> I had to stop trying a while back. Concentrated on just being able to do anything for a while
[20:07] <AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility look OK?
[20:11] <charlie-tca> no
[20:11] <charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/112905
[20:16] <charlie-tca> Sorry, but that looks the same to me
[20:16] <charlie-tca> wait
[20:16] <charlie-tca> what happened now. It just reloaded properly
[20:17] <AlanBell> caching probably
[20:17] <charlie-tca> I like that
[20:17] <charlie-tca> Is that modern, too?
[20:18] <charlie-tca> ignore that pastebin
[20:19]  * charlie-tca is starting to hate firefox 3.6.9
[20:19] <charlie-tca> it doesn't always download the page again, but it caches everything and displays out of date things
[20:20] <charlie-tca> even when I reload the page