=== meetingology` is now known as meetingology [11:51] qu|x: purblind meaning partially sighted? [11:52] but yes, this channel is for everyone [12:10] AlanBell: yes :) [13:48] http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic-is-going-bye-bye-soon.html haven't we been getting a lot of synaptic related questions recently? [13:49] (and I've confirmed with someone that the story is fairly accurate, although, my confirmer isn't sure if the timeline is 100% correct) [14:03] They have been talking about Software Center replacing synaptic and aptitude for a while now [14:11] yeah [14:12] I don't have the timeline for it, myself [14:12] I'm not sure anyone does [14:13] it seems to be a bit fuzzy [14:19] heh, not surprising [14:19] Seems to be another case of "let's allow everyone to guess what we are doing" [16:06] oh! heh , paultag must have quoted that from me! he was asking the other day.. :p [16:19] charlie-tca: Pendulum: actually, i'm not sure how to go to older records on the wiki > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=info , but it should be here , every release we keep postponing a few items to next release and replace synaptic when reasonable.. the plan for updates is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates [16:50] Pendulum: isn't there a problem with webkit (which sc uses) which causes problem with accessibility? [16:50] * nigelb remembers an angry mail to -devel regarding that [17:15] charlie-tca: re:ubuntu website, we can talk to the website team :) [17:16] I seem to be frustrated today. The theme we picked for Xubuntu was working, but it changed to black panels again, and now I can't see it. [17:17] :( [17:17] I can't distinguish these dark colors or light colors without good contrast [17:17] :( [17:19] charlie-tca: I am all for us working for that [17:19] at the very least for the accessibility team pages [17:19] and if we could convince people of overall change, it'd also be good [17:20] The days I can see are great! The days it blends together it gets crazy [17:21] if we can at least have an accessible version of the site, it would be great [17:21] It becomes quite a job trying to change all the links and text from the default and still keep it readable by those who use a speaking reader [17:22] I agree [17:23] As someone who works on web related stuff, most of the time, its focused on visual beauty than thought for screen readers :/ [17:25] Agreed [17:25] It isn't focused on readability, but rather on "pretty" [17:26] yeah [17:26] well and "fancy" [17:27] like all the people who are so excited about stack exchange [17:27] which as far as I can tell is unlikely to be screen-reader usable [17:28] because it's all JS [17:28] yup [17:29] Of course, just focusing on visual readability will help improve things, if we can keep them from adding more JS to the wiki. [17:29] nigelb: did you look at the wiki since I made a couple of changes? [17:30] charlie-tca: I'm totaly swamped until Thu [17:31] Okay [17:31] Going to be up all night too [17:55] charlie-tca: can you give a quick opinion on the readabilty of this moin wiki theme: http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw [17:56] I like it [17:56] great [17:56] The text shows very well, and the reverse links work great! [17:57] reverse links? [17:57] the white on aubergine when you hover over a link? [17:58] Somethink like bit.ly or tiny.url? [17:58] yes, when you hilight the link, it reverses the colors [17:58] yup [17:58] ok, interesting, didn't know that was a help [17:59] AlanBell: read scroll back on what charlie was talking about colors :) [17:59] that prompted my question [17:59] The only thing that is difficult to see is the grey/pink text in the upper right. I think it is meant to be greyed out next to the search box. [18:00] charlie-tca: yes, it is greyed out until you type something in the search box, then the contrast increases [18:00] apparently a standard moin feature [18:00] That works then [18:03] I complained about the wiki when they changed the colors to the dark brown/light brown theme, but it went un-noticed because it looks "pretty" [18:08] You did all that as admin, right? [18:09] this is just a development site [18:09] running on my laptop [18:10] it is a standard moin theme and the theory is to change this to it http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org [18:10] no particular reason why it couldn't be contributed to wiki.ubuntu.com as well [18:10] yes, it is just much easier to do that as admin than as a user [18:12] if you are logged into the wiki you can choose your preferred theme [18:15] That doesn't fix things when it is hard to see where to do that [18:15] However, if we has a good theme, maybe we can get it added and changed to default for accessibility only [18:15] That is how the help wiki did it [18:16] I agree, I was just thinking that if I am going to be talking to people about installing themes it would be a good opportunity to get a high contrast one in the list [18:16] wow! That would be nice [18:18] actually there is a new theme on the main wiki already called "light" which is somewhat similar to the one I have been working on [18:21] http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente perhaps [18:22] Well, actually, that grey text on grey background sucks [18:23] classic is pretty good, but if I recall correctly, you lose some features that Ubuntu added when you use it [18:30] Unfortunately, the only theme that shows things properly with the changes made to moinmoin by Ubuntu is the Ubuntu theme [18:34] charlie-tca: are you cool with my bringing some of these concerns to people like jono and the design team people? [18:34] sure [18:35] I tried when ayatana first formed, but they disregarded everything brought up that was not pretty enough [18:35] jono because he needs to understand the level of institutional attitudinal change and the design team because they seem genuinely interested in making accessibility work [18:35] hmm... I guess I should get involved in ayatana [18:35] And I will even try to give any answers I can [18:36] because pretty is fine, but if users can't use it, there's a problem [18:36] charlie-tca: do you have an example of something in the wiki that is specific to the ubuntu theme? [18:36] I dropped ayatana. They aren't interested in how usable it is, but rather seemed to be interested in visual appearance [18:36] TOC [18:36] It fails in every other theme [18:37] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility [18:37] If you switch themes and read this, it shows up nicely [18:37] and it applies to the entire wiki [18:43] hmm, I see some broken image links [18:44] anyhow, Pendulum I think it would be good to get a specifically accessible theme on the u-w wiki along with the one elky designed, then work on getting it into the main wiki [18:46] *nods* [18:47] I think I'm also going to see, since these are obviously things we want on our blueprint, poke both ivanka and jono about trying to make it to our UDS session [18:47] because jono's offered to advocate where he can [18:47] yup [18:47] and ivanka should be aware of how big an issue things like this are [18:48] and I know how frustrating accessibility stuff is as a user [18:49] a BBC site aimed at disabled people muffed it up majorly when redesigning their site and message boards (so much so that I nearly had to leave due to the visual design changes) [18:49] and that's with their having 4 different colour profiles that they claimed had been tested on users! [18:51] That would be great [18:52] I tried for a year before I built this theme I use on my own website - http://keepingdreams.com/ [18:52] *nods* [18:52] and then it fails in windows [18:52] aww :( [18:53] heh [18:53] bloody IE [18:53] yup [18:53] but, I kind of think if they want to use IE, I don't really care anymore [18:54] btw, which of the themes was I supposed to see when I clicked on that :) [18:54] since you also have something that I really like in that there's a choice of themes [18:54] (i'm also a fan of websites that give you variable type sizes so you can go as big or small as you want) [18:55] I use kubrickflex-blue [18:55] *nods* [18:55] that's the one I like of the 3 :) [18:55] but I wrote the thing, too [18:55] (I do well with blues compared to a lot of other colours) [18:55] that's because you have skills :P [18:55] I do too [18:55] I don't [18:55] locking the type size is the *worst* thing a website can do, that is intentionally breaking stuff [18:56] I don't have the skills now. I did have them [18:56] Yes, and it is really easy not to lock the type sizes. [18:56] I have to at some point get a domain and move my blog and find a theme I like that's also accessible (which gets difficult because I really want a theme that's based in pink) [18:56] I have had clients ask me to do that in the past so users can't "mess up their carefully designed layout" [18:56] * AlanBell declined [18:56] *nods* [18:57] but also sites that actually offer multiple type sizes by clicking buttons [18:57] They don't seem to realize, if I can't read it, I am not using it. [18:57] http://theopenlearningcentre.com/ <- buttons at the top [18:58] Mine was all based on my own ability to see. If I can't change font sizes and colors, I lose. [18:58] yeah [18:58] AlanBell: that's because you get it [18:58] sadly you are in the minority :( [18:58] I think Alan Lord designed that actually [18:58] Oh, that! Yeah, I thought about it, but in Firefox, Ctrl+plus key increases fonts nicely [18:59] it does, a lesser needed feature these days [18:59] yeah, but who wants to ctrl+plus key or ctrl+minus key all the time [18:59] ctrl+mouse wheel is what I generally use (normally for zooming out to see the whole thing) [19:00] me. It is necessary to read a lot of websites now [19:00] well, my point is more that some sites use bigger fonts and some user smaller [19:00] of course, I also set my minimum fonts to 12pt [19:00] *use [19:00] Never seen one that was too big for me [19:01] Pendulum: I think a very light pink background with a black font might work [19:01] fair enough [19:01] charlie-tca: yeah, i'm thinking black on pink and just figure out what shade of pink is best [19:01] lots of ebay adverts are in *huge* fonts, I think people expect that to get more attention or something [19:02] true [19:02] AlanBell: those also tend to have busy colours and confuse my brain :-/ [19:02] They don't realize that the more they are used, the less they attract [19:07] Pendulum: that Table Of Contents thing fails on all the wiki pages [19:18] okay, i'm off to see if my powerchair will make it to town and back. catch y'all later :) [19:20] good luck [19:21] charlie-tca: I expect it is a simple fix to get the toc working [19:21] doesn't seem to be. When they upgraded moinmoin, it was broken. The fix is to not use it or change themes [19:23] The only fix I have seen is to allow the TOC to have the entire page width [19:24] Unfortunately, it is one of the Ubuntu specific changes to moinmoin that causes it. [19:26] not entirely sure which bit you mean though, this is what I see in the modern theme: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/toc.png [19:27] Correct. The box labeled Contents, should not have the grey shaded box in a white box. The text can be no longer than the gray portion. It will wrap inside the gray box only [19:27] ok [19:28] If you shorten the width of the page, it will be seen, even down to single words per line, but the white box is still there [19:30] In the Ubuntu theme, the gray and white boxes are equal and used fully [19:35] yeah, see what you mean, and obviously it shows up more with bigger fonts. It is an easy fix to the theme to make. [19:36] but obviously not one we can make without access to the theme [19:36] I will install http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente on my laptop later [19:37] see if I can make that work with it [19:38] http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility not quite right in that theme either [19:41] Nothing of the pages will be right in any theme except Ubuntu. [19:42] I used modern theme until they upgraded the wiki a year or two ago [19:42] I also tried everything I could to make that work. [19:43] * charlie-tca ran moinmoin at home for a few years [19:56] yeah, I can see how to fix it [20:01] :-) [20:02] I had to stop trying a while back. Concentrated on just being able to do anything for a while [20:07] http://libertus.co.uk:88/uw/Accessibility look OK? [20:11] no [20:11] http://imagebin.org/112905 [20:16] Sorry, but that looks the same to me [20:16] wait [20:16] what happened now. It just reloaded properly [20:17] caching probably [20:17] I like that [20:17] Is that modern, too? [20:18] ignore that pastebin [20:19] * charlie-tca is starting to hate firefox 3.6.9 [20:19] it doesn't always download the page again, but it caches everything and displays out of date things [20:20] even when I reload the page