[01:49] <micahg> ScottK: I'm not familiar with ruby, should I subscribe the debian maintainer to the sync bug to see what he has to say?
[02:16] <persia> micahg, I can't speak for the release team, but my experience is that the answer to questions like that very much depends on the Debian maintainer.  If there's prior indications of interest in or support for Ubuntu, it usually works.  If not, you may want to ask in other ways.
[02:24] <micahg> persia: I requested a sync with a proper FFe after the Debian maintainer requested it be updated, the package was ruby based, that's the starting point here
[02:25] <persia> Ah, then yeah, I'd subscribe the Debian Maintainer, as the original requestor: they are likely most able to address some of the release team questions.
[02:25] <persia> One just has to take care for the (thankfully few) Debian maintainers who don't want to care about the state of their packages in Ubuntu.
[03:50] <ScottK> micahg: With rails we almost for certain want the latest crack we can get.
[03:50] <ScottK> But persia's advice is good.
[03:50] <micahg> ScottK: debian only has a small update, but I can request a aync
[03:50] <ScottK> I'm wondering if someone should package 2.3.8.  Usually it's not hard.
[03:50] <micahg> ScottK: I subscibed the maintainer for activesync who probably has some knowledge of rails
[03:51] <ScottK> OK.  Good.
[03:51] <micahg> ScottK: should I get the minor update from debian in the mean time?
[03:51] <ScottK> I didn't look to see what it was, but since it's an NMU, almost certainly.
[03:55] <micahg> ScottK: I'll do a tesst build and if it passes request thesync
[06:22] <dholbach> good morning
[06:25] <nigelb> g32
[06:29] <ajmitch> morning dholbach
[06:29] <dholbach> hi ajmitch
[06:32] <nigelb> afternoon ajmitch :)
[06:55] <ajmitch> hi nigelb
[06:55] <nigelb> ajmitch: how are ya doing? :)
[06:55] <ajmitch> sorry, was watching the final chapter in australian election results :)
[06:56] <nigelb> did anyone win? last time I checked noone had majority
[06:56] <ajmitch> labour won, just
[06:56] <nigelb> \o/
[06:58] <elky> A mandate of 1. I look forward to going back to the polls sometime in the next 3 years.
[06:58] <nigelb> lol
[07:00] <ajmitch> elky: I think bets will be taken now on how long this government will stand :)
[07:01] <elky> ajmitch, inorite
[07:02] <elky> Surely someone in the government will die, retire or have a dummy spit within short order.
[07:06] <RAOF> Well, maybe.
[07:06] <RAOF> Being Tasmanian, a bit of minority Labor government is plesantly familiar :)
[08:00] <Rhonda> Can I interest someone in this security issue reported: http://deb.at/B594412 in couchdb - it seems that it doesn't apply to Debian at all but only to Ubuntu because of a patch only carried in Ubuntu …  :/
[08:34] <ajmitch> Rhonda: that sounds like something the security team should know about it, if it's not in LP already
[08:35] <Rhonda> I just filed it in LP, bug #632201
[08:35] <ajmitch> thanks
[08:38] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: Was it difficult passing LPIC-1 ?
[08:38] <bilalakhtar> 'coz I am also thinking of giving it
[08:38] <Rhonda> Not for me.
[08:38] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: but, when I saw the mock tests online, they were bloody difficult!
[08:39] <bilalakhtar> Perhaps not for you, since you have been a DD since 2000
[08:39] <Rhonda> Had been working as sysadmin for a while back then already and didn't prepare at all (not even reading the objectives), passed. Was one of those rare chances when they had it cost-free at the event in the early days.
[08:40] <Rhonda> That's what I mean, it definitely depends on your own history of involvement and what you did so far. :)
[08:40] <bilalakhtar> not for me then
[08:40] <bilalakhtar> I have been involved with Ubuntu development from the last 10 months *only*
[08:41] <Rhonda> Started digging into Linux in 1996, started using it mostly exclusively since not too long after, both private and even job wise since 1998.
[08:41] <Rhonda> So in the years until 2005 I did pick up a fair amount of broad and overall knowledge.
[08:42] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: you are lucky enough to be a part of the Linux community since then!
[08:42]  * bilalakhtar was *born* in 1996
[08:43] <StevenK> bilalakhtar: Careful, you'll make other people feel old. Like me.
[08:43] <bilalakhtar> StevenK: sorry
[08:44] <Rhonda> First contact was 1994 on a box of my older brother, it already hat X and fvwm back then, and the "arena" browser, me thinks. Didn't know much to do with it at that time, though. But I was coding on the c64 in early 90ies, so …
[08:44] <StevenK> My first contact was RedHat 4.2, don't remember when that was.
[08:44] <Rhonda> StevenK: I wait for the first brave enough person to ask "What's a c64" :P
[08:45] <bilalakhtar> So Rhonda has been involved with Linux even before people began dumping Windows for speed and virus reasons!
[08:46] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: yes? what is it?
[08:46] <Rhonda> I was fortunate that there was this "mars" project at my university going on which lured me deeper into the linux area.
[08:47] <Rhonda> bilalakhtar: One of the first home computers. :)  And it is famous _because_ it was buggy implemented. Most of the really cool and impressive stuff that was done of it was possible because of the bugs in the implementation of the hardware.
[08:48] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: And you never moved to Windows since then?
[08:48] <bilalakhtar> !!!
[08:49] <Rhonda> Like, it had 8 sprites that you were able to place anywhere on the screen. But one was displayed already, you could tweak its position later on and were able to display more than 8 with not too much trouble.
[08:50] <Rhonda> I used it, but given that I already coded on the c64 windows never was really that attractive to me. I always loved my c64 and what was possible doing with it.
[08:50] <bilalakhtar> One question Rhonda . Do you use Debian or Ubuntu or both or none?
[08:51] <Rhonda> Or this other thing: The screen had a border around its 320 (or 160) x 200 screen to mask out the corner. One could shift the screen by 8 pixels, and for being able to get a scrolling effect the border could get narrowed by one character.
[08:52] <Rhonda> Now if one had switched the border narrowing off during exactly the place where the border would have get activated you could trick the GPU into _not_ activating the border because it thought it was already activated.
[08:52] <Rhonda> And with sprite placing in the border area it is possible to get a much bigger screen. :)
[08:53] <Rhonda> bilalakhtar: I use Debian but have Ubuntu chroots at one box where I have enough diskspace for testing things.
[08:53]  * bilalakhtar brb
[08:54] <Laney> fabrice_sp: Please forward patches back to Debian in future. We just got an FTBFS report on taoframework that you fixed in Ubuntu.
[10:37] <lucidfox> This is strange...
[10:38] <lucidfox> I've never read any books on UI design or anything, but in just about every open source project I contribute to, I end up becoming a usability advisor of sorts, and filing tons of UI related bugs
[10:43]  * vish hands lucidfox a /join #UX-advocates ;)
[10:43] <lucidfox> vish> Nobody there :)
[10:44] <vish> lucidfox: ofcourse the channel is not there , got you trying dint i ;)  but mentioning that people caring about UX can be part of the UX-advocates , and need not really have read UI design.. they just need to care :)
[10:44] <lucidfox> Oh! What's UX-advocates?
[10:45] <vish> lucidfox: http://design.canonical.com/2010/06/announcing-the-user-experience-advocates-project/
[10:51] <persia> vish, Is there a channel where folks doing that can collaborate, or ask each other for opinions on stuff?  if not, there ought be.
[10:51] <persia> (and it oughtn't start with #ubuntu-)
[10:56] <vish> persia: there isnt yet , but yes such topics are usually discussed in #gnome-design on GIMPnet or at #ayatana
[10:57] <vish> more at #gnome-design though.. since the discussions are mainly with upstream
[10:58] <persia> Seems sadly specific to a single environment, but I'm glad some resources exist.
[10:59] <vish> pretty sure kde could have one too.. mainly gnome folk trying to improve gnome design..
[10:59] <vish> or maybe kde is already too good :D
[11:00] <vish> or other environments..
[11:00] <persia> I guess.  I was thinking it would be good to have a collaborative pool of knowledgeable folk over all environments, but that may be too large a group to function effectively.
[11:02] <vish> persia: mainly it _needs_ to be specific to an environment since each environment has its own guidelines and HIG , discussing everything under one place can be confusing..
[11:22] <lucidfox> vish> I was actually thinking of starting an "UI hall of shame" column in my blog where I would lampoon bad UIs, but found it too much of a negative stimulus
[11:22] <persia> lucidfox, If you could critique them sensibly, rather than lampooning them, you might find it more positive (but probably much harder).
[11:24] <vish> lucidfox: well , if you had done that , i would have *sighed*  ... since it seems to be the general trend everyone wants to follow recently... i'd suggest try talking to upstreams first :) and then maybe try blog critiquing sensibily...
[11:24] <lucidfox> vish> General trend?
[11:24] <vish> lucidfox: most of the UI errors eventually turn out to be oversight than intentional bad design..
[11:26] <vish> lucidfox: yeah general trend recently, people seem to have forgotten basic forms of communication... getting a bunch of people to throw stones and then forcing their hand on upstreams..  kinda seems a hostile place for a person spending their free time to work in.. :)
[11:26] <lucidfox> :(
[11:27] <persia> Let's not compound the poor practice of posting generalised vague complaints by posting generalised vague complaints about the practice please.
[11:28] <vish> sry.. was just responding to a question asking for an explanation....
[11:29] <lucidfox> vish> Well, I'm myself guilty of this
[11:29] <lucidfox> http://lucidfox.org/posts/view/550
[11:30] <lucidfox> That, by the way, was written a year ago, and even though the maintainers of computer-janitor saw and commented on that, its UI remains as confusing as ever
[11:32]  * vish wonders when -motu people are going to say OFF TOPIC! :)
[11:32] <lucidfox> ...Sorry.
[11:33] <Rhonda> OFF TOPIC!
[11:33] <Rhonda> Hmm, but is it really?
[11:34] <Rhonda> Noone complained about my c64 exploration, and UI design is definitely far more on-topic than that. :)
[11:34] <Rhonda> But right, no complains doesn't imply that it's alright.
[11:36] <persia> It's generally acceptable to cover something off-topic for a couple lines, but best to end it quick, or redirect to a more appropriate forum (even without complaints).
[11:37] <persia> But people who shout "OFF TOPIC" (excluding those who do so for clear and obvious reasons other than being annoying) aren't likely to be received well.
[11:37] <persia> better is something like "That sounds like a good discussion for #ubuntu-offtopic" (or any other channel, as appropriate)
[11:50] <vish> Rhonda: .. it was more that *i* dint want to get yelled at ;) .. we moved the discussion to #ayatana :)
[11:51] <Rhonda> great, now vish did push me into bad style. :)
[12:00] <oojah> Hmm, I feel bad for continuing off-topic now that you've stopped, but I'm sure you wouldn't want to miss out on the worst UI I've ever seen: http://www.layouteditor.net/links/lasi.php5
[12:43] <ScottK> vish: KDE already has a usability project.  It's got enough visibility inside KDE that's it's head is a board member of KDE.v (the foundation that steers KDE).
[12:45] <vish> ScottK: cool! yeah , i think i'v heard of it too.. :)  now we just need to poach a few of your artwork people ;)
[12:45] <ScottK> vish: You know you've already done that, right?
[12:46] <vish> hehe, yeah! but a few more wont hurt ;)
[12:47] <ScottK> I'd be happy if gtk were advanced enough to put the OK/Cancel buttons on the correct side for the given environment.
[13:03] <AnAnt> Hello
[14:13] <tumbleweed> how do we feel about a package conflicting on a package that's only available in a ppa? bug 620384
[14:14] <persia> tumbleweed, Generally we don't much care either way.
[14:14] <persia> That said, it's never worth a delta from any sync source.
[14:16] <tumbleweed> sounds good, thanks
[18:13] <scott-work> chrisccoulson:  just tested gnome-network-admin in the Ubuntu Studio Beta and I was able to access the configuration gui, thank you very much for your efforts :)
[18:13] <chrisccoulson> scott-work, you're welcome :)
[19:18] <fabrice_sp> Laney, I was going to forward it later on, as well as 4 more that I fixed. I wanted to check if it really happens in debian before forwarding
[19:20] <fabrice_sp> fyi, I fixed it yesterday
[19:24] <fabrice_sp> Laney, do you request the sync or shall I take care of it?
[19:43] <RoAkSoAx> ttx: did you see my comments on bug #619712
[19:44] <ttx> RoAkSoAx: yes
[19:45] <RoAkSoAx> ttx: well upstream hasn't said anything about it yet. I'm gonna test in different kind of virtual networking. Other than that can't do much since I don't have enough machines to test in a real network with real switch
[19:45] <ttx> RoAkSoAx: if you don't feel comfortable about it, we'll let it as is in Maverick and wait
[19:47] <RoAkSoAx> ttx: yes I don't think the proposed fix should get into maverick without having upstream into it.
[19:48] <RoAkSoAx> since I really couldn't reaplicate the same exact race condition
[19:49] <ttx> RoAkSoAx: if it's not something everyone runs into, I think it's ok
[19:50] <jordan_c> can anyone point me to an idiots guide to packaging, preferably aimed at packaging a web-based platform like wordpress?
[19:50] <RoAkSoAx> ttx: ok then :)
[20:20] <bilalakhtar> tumbleweed: around?
[20:24] <Rhonda> Oh, logcheck is in main in ubuntu?
[20:24] <Rhonda> Because syncrequest asked me wether I have uploadrights for main. %-)
[20:24] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: yes of course :)
[20:25] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: and its requestsync :D
[20:27] <Rhonda> Yes, my tab-completion always tells me that again and again when I try. %-)
[20:28] <Rhonda> bilalakhtar: Which sponsoring team would I need to subscribe for that?
[20:29] <bilalakhtar> Rhonda: ubuntu-sponsors will do
[20:29] <Rhonda> … and I guess I should request PPU for logcheck in the long run.
[20:29] <bilalakhtar> All the sponsoring teams have been merged into ubuntu-sponsors
[20:29] <bilalakhtar> earlier there was ubuntu-sponsors-main and ubuntu-sponsors-universe
[20:30] <bilalakhtar> sorry ubuntu-main-sponsors and ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[20:30] <bilalakhtar> These teams still exist
[20:30] <bilalakhtar> but they have been deprecated
[20:45] <Laney> fabrice_sp: you can ;)
[20:50] <fabrice_sp> Laney, ok. I'll request the sync as soon as requestsync knows about it ;-)
[20:58] <Rhonda> ScottK: Thanks. :)
[21:38] <ajmitch> morning :)
[22:25] <AnAnt> Hello
[22:28] <ari-tczew> hello AnAnt
[23:35] <apparle> how to edit dependencies of package. I want to add X11 libraries to it?
[23:37] <ScottK> Rhonda: You're welcome.  I guess we need to make sure we have the amavisd-new  version that drops the logcheck stuff.
[23:39] <ajmitch> ScottK: we're not in any archive freeze period at th moment are we?
[23:39] <Laney> feature freeze
[23:39] <ajmitch> right, I was hoping the topic was up to date :)
[23:39] <ScottK> ajmitch: Nope.
[23:40] <ari-tczew> apparle: debian/control file
[23:41] <apparle> so I directly write libx11-6 to the depends line or is there anything else for X11 libraries?
[23:41] <apparle> ari-tczew: ^
[23:42] <ari-tczew> apparle: maybe try ask on #ubuntu-x
[23:52] <ari-tczew> persia, geser: could you update agenda's page with date next meeting?
[23:59] <persia> ari-tczew, Done.  It's the regular time, as the remaining folks haven't confirmed any time changes.