baclifeless, thumper, rockstar, mwhudson, StevenK: ping01:00
MootBotMeeting started at 19:00. The chair is bac.01:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]01:00
* rockstar 01:00
bachi guys01:00
bacthumper: did you see that article about the dunedin psycho murderer?01:01
lifelessonly here vaguely01:01
thumperbac: ah... no01:01
bacit's in the New Yorker magazin01:01
baci threw a link up on FB01:01
bac[topic] agenda01:02
MootBotNew Topic:  agenda01:02
bac* Roll call01:02
bac * Agenda01:02
bac * Outstanding actions01:02
bac * New topics01:02
bac  * Mentat update.01:02
bac  * Some of the UI reviewers have graduated, but ReviewerSchedule indicates that no one has graduated. Same for UI/Reviews, which still lists people who've left the team.01:02
bac  * https://dev.launchpad.net/ArchitectureGuide as per the epic - will reviewers please start discussing the values and metrics during reviews?01:02
bac  * Assertion errors and the webservice (gary)01:02
bac * Peanut gallery01:02
baci guess we're all here but steven01:02
bac[topic] mentat update01:03
MootBotNew Topic:  mentat update01:03
bacthumper: has steven been getting any more reviews?01:03
thumpernot that I've noticed01:03
thumperbut it has been week 301:03
baci made an appeal to the AMEU people to direct some towards him if they weren't pressed for time01:03
* thumper nods01:03
bacwe'll see if that happens.  i'm not optimistic it will.01:03
thumpereverything is urgent01:04
bacespecially with team leads breathing down your neck to move those kanban cards...01:04
bacthumper: well, do what you can...01:04
baci mentioned lifeless had thoughts about changing the metric for branch size.  i only meant to introduce it but the idea generated lots of reaction01:05
bacso, lifeless, i apologize for not getting up with you last week to form a proposal as we agreed.01:05
rockstarbac, what kinds of reactions?01:06
* rockstar COULD read the backchat, but is lazy.01:06
bac"too vague", "not a metric"01:07
bacnothing terribly hostile01:07
rockstarbac, the backchat indicates no interest in change at all, which is disheartening to me.01:08
baci tried to introduce robert's idea:  https://dev.launchpad.net/ArchitectureGuide as per the epic - will reviewers please start discussing the values and metrics during reviews?01:08
bacrockstar: well, it was not presented properly and i think there were just some knee jerk reactions01:08
rockstarbac, okay.01:08
* bac hopes he didn't poison the well01:08
rockstarbac, as for me and my house, I will keep my diffs small.01:09
baclifeless: i think we'll need an email about what you'd like to see wrt the ArchitectureGuide01:09
bacrockstar: your wife starting to hack launchpad?01:09
thumperbac: no, that is choco01:10
bacfinally gary raised a point about assertion errors and the API01:10
thumperhe has his own facebook account don't you know01:10
bacrs=bac for any work by choco01:10
rockstarbac, assertion errors and the API is also something I wonder about.01:10
bacchoco a fine LSD if ever there was one01:10
lifelessbac: huh, why?01:11
bacgary and benji have been looking at exception handling and the API.  they want to put together a white list of acceptable exceptions for the API.01:11
lifelessbac: what I wrote is what I want01:11
bacwork to be forthcoming01:11
lifelessbac: I can send a mail, but its all there already01:11
lifelessin the meeting log from last meeting, which I saw you edit on the wiki :P01:12
rockstarbac, a whitelist?  Really?  I don't like that idea.01:12
baclifeless: i think an email hitting the hightlights will be more effective than just posting a URL for people to read.01:12
rockstarbac, for instance, we raise BranchMergeProposalExists in the case where someone proposes a merge against a branch where one already exists.01:13
rockstarI think that's much more helpful than say, an assertion error.01:13
baclifeless: i like what you're encouraging, but i think a lot of reviewers have a fixed way they work, certain things they look for, etc.  IMO it'll take some effort to change habits.01:14
bacrockstar: yes, i think that's the direction gary is headed.01:14
bacrockstar: that's much better than raising an AssertionError01:14
rockstarbac, okay.  My concern is that, for a whitelist, when we add an exception, we have to add it to the whitelist.01:15
rockstarCurrently, to make it API-compatible, we just annotate the exception with webservice_error()01:15
bacrockstar: valid points you can raise when gary makes his proposal.  this was just a head up, i think.01:16
rockstarbac, ah, okay.01:16
lifelessbac: perhaps we can refine it here then01:16
lifelessbac: the idea is that they - check the metrics; discuss the patch in the context of the values & goals on that page.01:17
bacrockstar: gary and benji also made the reminder that assert() shouldn't be used as it can be optimized away...01:17
rockstarbac, yeah.  assert() is less helpful than an AssertionError01:17
lifelessFWIW assert and -O aren't relevant for us, though I agree in principle (and we don't use assert() for that very reason in bzr)01:18
mwhudsonit is (or at least was) also surprisingly common for people to break lines by doing01:18
mwhudsonassert (condition,01:18
mwhudson    message)01:18
rockstarmwhudson, ew.01:19
mwhudsonanyway, there seems to be a lot of talk here about partially presented ideas :-)01:19
bacmwhudson: yeah, i used to see syntactically correct but completely wrong asserts a lot01:19
rockstarbac, it looks like we're summing up here.  I have a proposal.01:21
baclifeless: i agree with your ideas regarding the values and goals.01:22
rockstar(a full proposal)01:22
baclifeless: i just don't know how to make it happen, other than what you're already doing, which is very helpful.01:22
bacrockstar: sure01:22
lifelessbac: ok, so I'll send a short message asking for this.01:23
rockstarbac, I propose that we abolish the "javascript" review, and just make it a regular code review.01:23
lifelessbac: and perhaps you could follow up in the review team meetings asking whether folk are finding this to work well?01:23
baclifeless: certainly01:23
rockstarbac, I'll be updating the JavascriptReviewGuidelines a bit more, as I've learned a bunch about writing high performance javascript recently, and our code makes me cringe.01:24
rockstarI think we could make everyone a javascripter if they had to review javascript and have things explained to them.01:24
thumper+1 to rockstar's proposal01:25
bacrockstar: i look forward to hearing what you've learned.01:25
rockstarbac, there will be an email today or tomorrow.01:26
bacbecoming more competent in JS is one of my goals...01:26
rockstar(and I'll be participating in performance Tuesday from now on)01:26
bacis there anything else you'd like to talk about?01:27
rockstarNot from me.01:27
bacthumper: when you see StevenK would you remind him of the meeting time?01:28
thumperbac: ack01:28
bacthanks guys.01:28
MootBotMeeting finished at 19:28.01:28
=== mrevell is now known as mrevell-lunch
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
=== mrevell-lunch is now known as mrevell
=== benji is now known as benji-lunch
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch
=== benji-lunch is now known as benji
=== Ursinha-lunch is now known as Ursinha
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk

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