[08:15] <vish> yay! troy_s is here ;)
[08:15] <vish>  <vish> troy_s: nah.. i was thinking of reviving the artwork team/ML.. seems we are doing nothing .. especially last cycle nothing was done ..  and there was talk about alpha wallpapers earlier but nothing seems to have been put into action.. i'm planning on writing a mail to the list to know if people are interested in doing anything...
[08:15] <vish> [13:26] <vish> oops troy isnt here :(
[17:32] <fhein> hey
[17:32] <fhein> first of all, I must say that Ubuntu 10.04 looks awesome.. really like the theme
[17:32] <thorwil> ho
[17:33] <fhein> but I just installed 10.10 beta, and am I the only one who thinks the purple-orange mix looks a little off?
[17:34] <thorwil> fhein: you are most likely not the only one. but you will hardly find those responsible here outside of london office hours ;)
[17:34] <fhein> hehe, just checking
[17:35] <fhein> is there any design/artwork feedback site, or is irc the best forum for discussing ideas etc?
[17:37] <thorwil> fhein: replies to posts on http://design.canonical.com/ might have among the better chances of receiving attention
[17:38] <fhein> cool, I'll check it out
[17:38] <thorwil> fhein: note that i has been declared that the 10.10 wallpaper will be changed, already
[17:38] <thorwil> fhein: this explains the idea behind it: http://design.canonical.com/2010/09/ubuntu-default-wallpaper/
[17:42] <fhein> pretty interesting idea with a slowly changing wallpaper too
[19:14] <troy_s> vish: Apparently I was. Strange.
[19:15] <troy_s> The reality is that cycling a wallpaper won't change the fact that it is a poorly executed and underwhelming experience.
[19:16] <troy_s> Widget's comment, as derogatory as it is, stands as the best summation.
[19:22] <troy_s> vish: I don't really know what to suggest with the list. Personally, there are a number of issues facing it. Who should be on the list? Why? Inclusion is great, but not when it simply amounts to a batch of poorly informed opinions on various things.
[19:23] <troy_s> vish: Second would be the big question of why? Why does the list exist? There isn't much reason to as it currently stands. It even creates some degree of confusion (as can be seen here) where people _assume_ that xxx decision is made there.
[19:24] <troy_s> vish: It likely need to have a _purpose_, and that purpose should be loudly stated somewhere. I believe that was tried once, to be a place for community contributions, but that has clearly not been a growing audience.
[19:28] <vish> re
[19:28] <vish> troy_s: heya.. :)
[19:29] <vish> troy_s: exactly! many dont know what can be done in Ubuntu.. we first need to draw lines where we can change what community can work on..
[19:30] <vish> troy_s: its not just about the alpha wallpapers, but we can do so much more.. , backgrounds for games etc..
[19:30] <troy_s> vish: The information out there is pretty sad.
[19:30] <vish> yupp.
[19:30] <troy_s> vish: The only issue is that there is the great huge dilemma - first is information and second is process.
[19:30] <troy_s> vish: There isn't much of a _need_ currently.
[19:31] <vish> troy_s: isnt a need for which?
[19:31] <troy_s> vish: And even where there might be a need, there is no process or reason to harness such a team (even if it demonstrated that it was capable of producing anything of merit, which to date, is clearly on the lacking side.)
[19:31] <troy_s> vish: That sort of a resource.
[19:31] <vish> there is!
[19:31] <troy_s> vish: It would likely require actively finding projects that _desire_ or _need_ that sort of input.
[19:32] <vish> troy_s: but people dont know.. there is spread Ubuntu , where people can do tshirt designs , designs for presentations , for mugs.
[19:32] <vish> for banners..
[19:33] <vish> people are submitting their art on deviant art etc.. but is any of it being used?
[19:33] <vish> why cant we use it?
[19:33] <vish> we need to be organized, that is what we are missing , IMHO ;)
[19:33] <troy_s> vish: Personally, it would be nice to see a listing of talent somewhere.
[19:34] <troy_s> vish: That is the age old chant. Organize.
[19:34] <troy_s> vish: It never really amounts to anything other than organization.
[19:34] <vish> troy_s: haha , the talented is not an easy resource ;)
[19:34] <troy_s> vish: Supplant it with information.
[19:35] <troy_s> vish: _If_ there are people in the community, maybe offering up a single resource for outsiders is useful?
[19:35] <vish> thats what i want to find out.. , are there people interested..
[19:35] <troy_s> vish: And most importantly, don't rely on an empty label. "artist" "designer" "illustrator" are scary terms. If you replace them with a word like "brilliant", you can see why I worry when people self label themselves.
[19:36] <troy_s> vish: Think of a Behance for Ubuntu maybe?
[19:37] <vish> hehe.. ;)  in the words of some famous canadian.. "Artist is not a something to be self proclaimed" ;p
[19:37] <troy_s> vish: Sounds like an idiot. But I agree with that sentiment.
[19:37] <troy_s> vish: Create the work and let others do the labelling.
[19:37] <vish> yup!
[19:37] <troy_s> vish: I _do_ think that it is possible to become a valuable core of folks, but right now... it's pretty hard to see value there.
[19:38] <troy_s> vish: And there is no relationship there. Not much trust. Etc.
[19:38] <vish> troy_s: i believe thats where you can help, be part of a core.. :)
[19:38] <troy_s> vish: So I suppose I'd probably try to focus on building that.
[19:38] <troy_s> vish: My time has long since waned on that front my friend.
[19:39] <vish> ;)
[19:39] <troy_s> vish: There is a very real chasm between coding and art, design, blah blah.
[19:39] <troy_s> vish: And I'm not sure how to bridge it. It is a cultural issue.
[19:40] <troy_s> vish: What are your thoughts?
[19:41] <vish> troy_s: lets start small , and not get into coding.. lets start with what we can change.. my idea was to setup/start something where the community has control of, that is where we can take control of the alpha wallpapers..
[19:41] <vish> troy_s: then we can do backgrounds/art in games etc..
[19:41] <troy_s> vish: That would expand into politicking. Good luck on that one.
[19:42] <vish> troy_s: not politicking.. :)  canonical does not have much interest in those yet
[19:42] <vish> troy_s: we just cant start to do everything , we need to be able to show we can do something effectively..
[19:42] <troy_s> vish: Creating work is tricky enough, let alone doing it in some sort of collaborative setting.
[19:43] <troy_s> vish: Yes. It is a well trodden path. ;)
[19:43] <troy_s> vish: I suppose, in a roundabout way, I'm not entirely sure there is a core there at all. And where there is, there is probably significant aesthetic ... uh ... differences.
[19:44] <vish> troy_s: well , i think we have atleast 3 whom i can think of as a core , thats counting you , thorwil and kwwii
[19:44] <troy_s> vish: I'm not there. And won't be.
[19:44] <vish> ;p
[19:45] <troy_s> vish: Sorry.
[19:45] <troy_s> vish: I simply have no time to be honest, and I'm not entirely sure why I should be there at all.
[19:45] <troy_s> vish: I'd rather just like to see people's work.
[19:45] <troy_s> vish: People's work tells all.
[19:45] <troy_s> vish: And there isn't enough of it.
[19:45] <vish> troy_s: np.. well , just thought you might be willing too.. :)  since you often speak about making a change.. well.. nevermind then ;)
[19:46] <vish> s/too/to
[19:46] <troy_s> vish: Change is a tricky thing. It's my subjective opinion on change obviously, and it is clearly a view that isn't shared.
[19:47] <vish> troy_s: hmm, i dont think you got the point.. you need not do them.. but alteast there needs to be someone to review and formulate a direction.
[19:48] <troy_s> vish: And I believe there is quite a bit of flux going on at Canonical at the moment WRT some of the team.
[19:48] <thorwil> vish: you can always count on troy_s for words and count on me for very constructive remarks! ^^
[19:48] <vish> thorwil: ;)
[19:49] <vish> thorwil: troy_s: my idea was to have a core who could help review and direct submissions or create a direction..
[19:49] <vish> obviously not to do the work.. art is not easy ;p
[19:49] <troy_s> vish: Eep.
[19:50] <troy_s> vish: Are there 'submissions' or work?
[19:50] <vish> troy_s: well, whats this > http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/gallery/25667683 , why are people adding their work there?
[19:51] <thorwil> vish: i think the worry here is that "submission" implicates something closed, already wrapped up
[19:51] <troy_s> vish: I believe that is an offshoot of something (correct me if I'm wrong) Dr. Mo started.
[19:51] <troy_s> vish: And uh.
[19:51] <vish> troy_s: yes , thats his but can we use them? why are people submitting there?
[19:52] <thorwil> vish: maybe because they are herd animals?
[19:52] <vish> thorwil: we dont have to close submissions at any point.. its just my general idea..
[19:52] <troy_s> vish: Erm... have you _looked_ at that page?
[19:53] <vish> yea.. no direction! , but can we direct.?
[19:53] <thorwil> vish: no, just the term submission could be seen as pushing things in that fire-and-forget direction
[19:53] <troy_s> vish: Everyone wants to direct. And why shouldn't they? Who makes xxx more or less valuable to yyy? Tough questions.
[19:54] <vish> thorwil: troy_s: is there no hope ? ;)  let me try asking in a different way.. how can the artwork team/ML be useful?
[19:54] <vish> right now , we did nothing during maverick cycle..
[19:55] <troy_s> vish: I'm sure there is hope. I'm just not sure I can see a solution, let alone an 'easy' one. There are PLENTY of bright folks around these parts, and yet nothing yet has really geled.
[19:55] <troy_s> vish: I dare say that maybe this whole thing is backwards?
[19:55] <vish> troy_s: why is that? what do you think is the problem? apart from the ageold rant "Cultural" ;p
[19:55] <thorwil> vish: it would be all about having a niche as mission that can be filled, lasting
[19:56] <troy_s> vish: The _value_ of the work comes from individuals. Maybe it is time to start examining the work and figuring out who you / the community desires?
[19:56] <troy_s> vish: Maybe there is something to be had there?
[19:57] <vish> well , we can trying praying for unicorns.. but are we going to be able to get them? :D
[19:57] <troy_s> vish: No. I meant crawling through existing work. Let's assume that there is a community right now of X size.
[19:57] <troy_s> vish: Having those existing participants evaluate the work on that link and maybe the Flickr link, might be ... insightful.
[19:57] <vish> troy_s: no need to just crawl there , but we can setup a better system
[19:58] <troy_s> vish: By crawl I meant scour / crawl / examine.
[19:58] <vish> troy_s: i was ranting this earlier and doctormo + pleia setup a site with cchost, we can start with a new system
[19:59] <vish> there is no system right now..
[19:59] <troy_s> vish: Is it the system?
[19:59] <vish> and no one cares..
[19:59] <vish> everyone wants to talk but there is little action..
[20:00] <troy_s> vish: It's the people. It's the work. Likely the people you desire have already created work. For various reasons (and that is another story) you value their work. Go talk to _them_.
[20:00] <troy_s> vish: It will _always_ be random noise coming in. Again, any customer support person or scripter can decide one day to label themselves an artist. They might even fool folks into hiring them.
[20:00] <troy_s> vish: So skip that. Go find the work.
[20:00] <vish> troy_s: well , sometimes talking to them is tedious! they are tl;dr   ;p
[20:01] <troy_s> vish: And find the people that are behind it.
[20:01]  * thorwil does not really ponder asking björk for a new sound theme
[20:01] <troy_s> vish: Flickr has some people with eyes.
[20:01] <troy_s> vish: I'd start there.
[20:02] <darkmatter> and avoid deviantfart like the plague ;p
[20:02] <troy_s> There are some pretty good Deviant art folks, but not many that seem to cross over the line.
[20:03] <thorwil> diamonds in dung
[20:05] <vish> troy_s: to be honest , *i* aint anywhere nearly as good as either you or thorwil but i have been able to do some work *on* Ubuntu, and kinda have been able to make some more difference than you'll .. how is that? why is that? this is what got me started thinking.. there are surely people more talented than me out there on the ML who are interested on doing actual work.. i just thought i'd try to help them :)
[20:05] <troy_s> vish: There _are_ some interesting folks in that Flickr selection. How many are interested in working under a unified banner? What might be accomplished? All pretty interesting questions, but it probably requires a plan and then the ability to attract them to the plan.
[20:06] <troy_s> vish: Believe me, I ain't good.
[20:06] <vish> troy_s: believe me i'm even worse ;)
[20:06] <troy_s> vish: But formulating a plan and valuing people's work is probably the best medicine. For example, I was just perusing the Flickr group and there are some submissions there that, while being of whatever worth as a wallpaper, are clearly created with some artistic vision.
[20:07] <troy_s> vish: Figuring out what to do and then being interested in them as _people_ might be worth building?
[20:08] <thorwil> vish: you seem to be a better team player than i am and unlike me, you havn't lost most of your motivation. you also seem to not worry how your involvment here east into the time you should perhpas spend more directl yon a career
[20:08] <troy_s> vish: For example - http://www.flickr.com/photos/flamuraliu/4457570324/in/pool-556923@N24/
[20:08] <thorwil> and you can still type, ouch
[20:08] <troy_s> vish: That person I'd be interested in simply because of the various bits they have created.
[20:09] <troy_s> vish: They clearly have some pretty remarkable talent. There is a vision. There is execution.
[20:10] <vish> thorwil: i just got lucky! :)  truthfully i actually dont spend much time on Ubuntu, probably an hr or two a day ;)
[20:11] <thorwil> an hour or 2 daily and "not  much", hmmm
[20:11] <troy_s> vish: Another person worth following up. http://www.flickr.com/photos/42931016@N08/4906928154/in/pool-556923@N24/
[20:13] <thorwil> makes me wonder what a skilled, resourceful photographer would make out of a "create template shots for an icon theme" job
[20:13] <troy_s> thorwil: There's a good idea.
[20:14] <troy_s> thorwil: Might I dare say that it could snap the damn T / O nightmare?
[20:14] <troy_s> thorwil: Creating photorealistic icons from custom photography is likely far faster too.
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: But hell... that's probably far down the foodchain. It would end up another one of the 'slap these icons over whatever'. Higher level woudn't hurt.
[20:19] <troy_s> Wholly poopers there is a lot of double u tee eff in that pool.
[20:24] <troy_s> vish: At any rate... I'm sure there is a viable path. The more I think about it though, the less I'd worry about the 'community' and all of the passing garbage chucked out of a window and more about the individuals. Those with a longer term dedication to creating work. I'm sure there are a few exemplary folks in that Flickr group. Figuring out _who_ is likely at least as hard as creating interesting work. ;)
[20:24] <troy_s> vish: To quote a very clever and creative fellow - http://gregorywood.co.uk/journal/cleese-on-creativity
[20:24] <vish> ;)
[20:25] <troy_s> vish: See what happens if you approach those folks? I wonder...
[20:33] <troy_s> vish: This person has some interesting stuff going on: http://www.flickr.com/photos/evil_m0nkey/4405023316/ There are plenty of misses in their selections, but hits have some magical craftsmanship.
[20:38] <troy_s> I sincerely wonder how many contributions are actually from people that care about Libre software... lol.
[20:38] <vish> troy_s: haha , well.. i'm not gonna be contacting them anyway ;)
[20:39] <vish> i think almost everyone tries a shot like this ;) > http://www.flickr.com/photos/evil_m0nkey/4560262010/in/photostream/
[20:39] <troy_s> vish: Hard to execute really.
[20:40] <troy_s> vish: That whole realm of artistic architectural photography is pretty tricky.
[20:44] <troy_s> vish: Is there anything interesting going on at the list?
[20:46] <vish> troy_s: nope.. nothing.. zero.. zilch.. nada.. ;)
[20:46] <troy_s> vish: Well... plenty of soil to plant in then I suppose... ;)
[20:46] <vish> haha!