=== Zeike is now known as brandonj === loonycookie is now known as aprilg [10:08] hello [15:34] exit [15:48] Hi, I think it's almost time to start the meeting [15:49] o/ [15:49] Hello. [15:53] Almost meeting time/ [15:53] Too bad I'm still sick. === loonycookie is now known as aprilg [15:54] hi everyone [15:54] I was wondering where you were. [15:54] Hey. [15:54] my internet connection's choppy. so I might get disconnected any time :( [15:54] hey Omega [15:55] a lot of people getting sick nowadays [15:55] Hello, you two. [15:55] hey Muscovy [15:59] Are we just about ready? [16:00] I think we are. [16:00] making a cup of coffee [16:01] Just arrived.. Has the meeting started? [16:01] Almost. [16:02] greetins [16:02] the time is? [16:02] If anyone hasn't pulled their branches in the last 12 hours or so, pulling it would be suggested. [16:02] hm, weird. I seem to be still logged in, wtf. brb [16:04] :) [16:05] http://openetherpad.org/UbuntuTourAgenda [16:06] !meeting start [16:06] :> [16:06] akshrapatel, aprilg, brandonj, Crisco, Dykam, fieldse, jeremymikkola, maheshmohan, Omega, popey, UndiFineD [16:07] present [16:07] present [16:07] here [16:07] present [16:07] present [16:07] sort of here (-: [16:07] Let the meeting begin! [16:07] Shall we cover the branches first? [16:08] present, sort of. Don't know how I manage to be logged in twice, ehh [16:08] * Dykam is here, but only for 25% [16:08] Link to agenda, please? [16:08] http://openetherpad.org/UbuntuTourAgenda [16:08] http://openetherpad.org/UbuntuTourAgenda [16:08] I'll topic it for now. === Muscovy changed the topic of #ubuntu-tour to: Meeting agenda: http://openetherpad.org/UbuntuTourAgenda [16:09] it was already in the topic :] [16:09] doh. thx. [16:09] Now it's unmissable. [16:09] So, we've got two branches currently, https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tour/ubuntu-tour/maverick for writing, https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tour/ubuntu-tour/code-development for code. [16:10] I wish more of the programmers were here. [16:10] I'm a python programmer [16:10] though learning gtk [16:10] along with my MBA exams [16:10] * UndiFineD is a php programmer [16:10] As am I. [16:10] Okay, braches. [16:10] * Dykam is, not python, but that is not a problem. just busy [16:10] willing to learn python though [16:10] am into pyGTK [16:11] The two propositions in the agenda are to make a translation branch, and to merge the existing branches. [16:12] Personally, I think we should keep everything all in one branch, now that the code is stable. [16:12] Yeah [16:12] yes. Why we have two branches? Any advantage with that? Correct me if I'm wrong [16:12] More than one branch just means manual merges, and people putting things in the wrong one. [16:12] maheshmohan: The code in the other branch was experimental. [16:12] It was done because in the first two days or so, the code for the tour was getting wacky. [16:12] I prefer one branch too [16:13] I'm all for one branch [16:13] Any objections? [16:13] No, okay, decided. [16:14] Alright. We can get that updated later. [16:14] A definitive list of tours and categories [16:14] I'd say we need that. [16:14] The question would then be, why are we making this tour [16:15] to whom are we targeting [16:15] New users. [16:15] Absolutely Newbies? [16:15] Transitional or brand new users. [16:15] Okay [16:15] beginners, kids, transitional [16:15] People that don't know their way around yet. [16:16] Which also means the tour needs a good UI. [16:16] Then we can create levels of our tours [16:16] Like Absolutely beginners, Transitional [16:16] and so on [16:16] And about a Good UI, the new Ubuntu Image Slideshow is a great design [16:17] The installer one? [16:17] ya [16:17] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTour/Todo#List of Pages === loonycookie is now known as aprilg_ [16:17] got disconnected. which topic are we on now? [16:18] Good UI for the app [16:18] Actually, we were talking about the list of categories. [16:18] But we got diverged. [16:18] So, back to the list. [16:18] okay [16:19] The UI comes later. [16:19] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTour/Todo#List of Pages [16:19] Onto the list of categories then [16:20] Some topics like Nautilus certainly need expanding. [16:20] List of ideas for "needs for expanding"? [16:21] Also, people coming over from linux need to learn a little bit about the file system organization [16:21] and there are some 33000 packages in the repositories, hard to do them all [16:21] I'm not sure this is the place to explain the contents of /, if that's what you mean. [16:22] Nopes, not in detail [16:22] But a certain overview [16:22] fieldse: Nautilus ought to explain stuff like the UI and basic permissions too. [16:22] yes, general overview, of LSB and filesystem access rights [16:22] Or we can point to the manual ofr that. [16:22] * fieldse_ nods @ muscovy [16:23] muscovy, if you can think of a short list and pass it to me I can add it to the wiki [16:23] No. a big NO. I think, thw tour will cover how to use the default apps & how to get extra packages. that's all. he will gradually learn about the filesystem. === loonycookie is now known as aprilg [16:23] * fieldse_ agrees with maheshmohan - Filesystem structure is beyond the scope of our project, IMO [16:23] I understand, it might get too techy for a new user [16:23] maheshmohan, yes, but it will have to be in there at some point [16:23] We should provide the users with the basic tools he needs to survive. [16:24] I wrote that from a transitional users point of view [16:24] Filesystem structure is for more of Ubuntu Manual level of users, I feel. [16:24] Also, aksharpatel47 , while I agree with the need to teach new users about this, I think we have to keep our tutorial fairly short so as not to lose them. [16:24] Yeah. [16:24] Maybe a list of "learn more about" links at the end? [16:24] * idea ^ [16:24] There isn't a really non-technical reason go anywhere other than /media, IMO. [16:24] We need to teach them what they want to learn. [16:24] fieldse_ ya.right. he may get lost after seeing the filesystem thing! [16:24] @fieldse :Learn more about would be great [16:25] Just a random though: perhaps it would make more sense for it to be task-oriented, rather than application-oriented? [16:25] *thought [16:25] That's what I meant with pointing to the ubuntu manual project. [16:26] evince ./ubuntu-manual.pdf --page-label=X [16:26] If we download the manual, we could use that to link to specific pages. [16:26] Hey, all? A point that's probably covered already, but who's taking minutes? [16:27] * UndiFineD has all [16:27] * fieldse_ blinks [16:27] undifined, you mean you're taking? [16:27] Minutes or logs? [16:28] Minutes for the meeting, now. I see "alexander" is signed up for this [16:29] Ok, I'm assuming the silence means no one is doing it - so, I guess I am. Where / how do I need to post these? [16:29] Allright [16:29] I'm doing it [16:29] Post what? [16:30] aksharpatel47, thanks. [16:30] sorry, didn't see your post [16:30] Once ubuntulo1 gets to it, logs will be at http://irclogs.ubuntutour.org/2010/09/18.html if that's what you mean. [16:32] muscovy, no, didn't mean to derail conversation, sorry, but what I meant was is anyone actually taking meeting minute notes, and posting them somewhere, aside from the IRC log. Seeing this request in the EtherPad agenda: Somebody also needs to be responsible for taking minutes. Any voulenteers? Alexander Lancey [16:32] http://irclogs.ubuntutour.org/2010/09 [16:32] I said I'd do it. [16:32] aite, apologies, continue. [16:32] Do we have more to say about the tour topics? [16:33] I am not clear on the list for that [16:33] I'd say the tour topics are pretty solid [16:34] Fairly. === loonycookie is now known as aprilg_ [16:34] pretty solid [16:34] It sounds like mostly everyone thinks the topics are solid, if you're seeing holes that you think need filling, why not suggest them and we'll add it to the list? [16:34] I can definitely see some small level tweaks, but on the whole it's pretty good. [16:34] Alright. [16:34] Consider what the user will be wanting to do first, and how we should be organising tools. [16:34] Nautilus UI and permissions should be mentioned. [16:35] Maybe add bookmarks/history to Firefox. [16:35] I see a whole bunch of launchpad issues, most are on audio, it would be great if users can learn a bit about that [16:36] undifined, like what? [16:36] That should be in the "getting help" tour. [16:36] I was silly enough to subscribe to the kernel list, and most issues I get are on alsa pulse oss === aprilg_ is now known as aprilg [16:37] For troubleshooting, this would be another good manual referral. [16:37] agh. Yeah, I think we have that covered with "get help" section links, correct? [16:37] Is there specifically a link to launchpad help mailing lists being included? 'cause if not, it needs to be. [16:38] I don't think there is yet. [16:39] We need to update the 'get help' section [16:39] to include those links [16:39] Are there any other tour topics we should include? [16:40] getting an email address [16:40] totally new people would have none [16:40] Good idea. [16:41] How to Get involved with Ubuntu/Contribute [16:41] * fieldse_ blinks: undifined , like how would you suggest to get an email address? [16:41] one of a list of free mail providers [16:42] Oh, right- do we have "setting up an email account" covered in the Empathy section? [16:42] ya [16:43] :) [16:43] Yes, so we should link the two, perhaps. [16:43] yes.right [16:43] IE, 'how to set up your existing email address with evolution/whatever'? Because this would be appropriate place for a link to 'creating a new email account' if you don't have one already [16:43] there's a few topics for Evolution [16:43] Emaothy only mentions making a new one, not who, so it should link to wherever that oage is. [16:44] getting help : LoCo support [16:44] But I don't want us to advertise any particulat email provider. [16:45] Yeah, I agree - this has been one of my long-standing "papercut" gripes with Ubuntu experience: they include Evolution by default, but not a very good intro to setting up your mail accounts, that the fact that it defaults as the "mailto" client without previously asking you for your choice is a pain. [16:45] I just use webmail [16:45] Is setting up alternate default mail client covered in Empathy/Evolution section? [16:46] fieldse_ I don't think so [16:46] undifined, same here - that's why I'd want to show them how to change "mailto" program. [16:46] As in webmail or as in Thunderbird or something? [16:46] Okay, add ^ to topics list [16:46] Muscovy, no I am worse I forwarded my own domain to gmail [16:46] muscovy, as in either webmail or thunderbird. [16:47] UndiFine: same here! [16:47] by the way, should Evolution have be a stand-alone topic or should we change it to something more general, maybe e-mails ? [16:47] We could easily link to a handful of mail providers, without endorsing one. [16:48] *should Evolution be [16:48] I'm not sure, it depends how much we want to talk about browser mail. [16:48] aprilg, is it currently a just-touched-upon subtopic of the Empathy/chat client section? [16:48] muscovy, agreed [16:48] if we use the topic email, we can just say htat the default eemail client for ubuntu is evolution. provide an overview for that, how to set up an account, etc. and then at the end, tell the user that ther are other options. and provide the list [16:49] Probably conglomerate the two though. [16:49] fieldse_ right now, Evolution is its own separate topic [16:49] I also forward my own domain to gmail :> [16:49] it isn't under Empathy [16:50] aprilg, Agreed - I move we set up "email" topic as its own section, include empathy + mailto setup problem + setting up an email address in this section [16:50] seems good [16:51] Ok, any objections? [16:51] Moving on ... [16:51] ok.goog. [16:51] None, I like it. [16:51] sorry.good [16:51] agreed [16:51] any other topic suggestions? can we now talk about coding [16:51] ok. any other topics that need to be included or modified? [16:51] I don't think so. [16:51] Not here. [16:51] getting help : LoCo support [16:52] Oh, that's a good one. [16:52] ok. [16:52] ok. update getting help, and reorganize empathy and evolution. [16:52] next topic? [16:52] on the agenda, I mean :D [16:52] Ok. If nothing else? "Consider what the user will be wanting to do first, and how we should be organising tools?" [16:53] What does "oranising tools" refer to? [16:53] I was thinking about having a "home page" that lists the tours, in a "suggested" order. [16:53] Ah. [16:54] Sounds sensible. [16:54] I think order beyond desktop-apps-help is mainly opinion. [16:54] Personally, recommendation: Do not greet the user with this list / menu for first screen. Just put them right into the first tour after an intro. [16:55] That seems better. [16:55] Personally, when I'm greeted with a menu of subjects 5 miles long, it deters me from ever starting. [16:55] doesn't the current left pane/navigation thing provide the same functionality as a home screen listing all the tours? [16:55] It takes up more space, and looks a little scary. [16:55] So, if you present them with a first few (short) tours quickly, they can navigate to the "list of tours" menu if they're interested in skipping ahead [16:56] ok.. [16:56] thoughts/contentions, muscovy ? [16:56] im thinking we can directly launch the welcome to ubuntu/about ubuntu tour [16:56] Or we can have round buttons corresponding to each of the topic heads [16:56] and then have the Ubuntu Installer Slideshow kind of tour [16:56] and then after that, direct the user to the list of tours [16:57] aksharpatel47, I like that idea. I don't want to keep adding to the programmers / UI designers' workload, but sounds nifty. [16:57] akshar, yes.nice [16:57] Are we going to discuss the Ubuntu Slideshow model later in the meeting? [16:58] Yes, when we get to UI. [16:58] Ok. [16:58] I'm going to have to split in 30, I'd like to be in on the UI discussion briefly. [16:59] Sorry, I was away for a moment. [16:59] Perhaps we could also have some kind of quick start page that tells people what tutorial to follow in order to accomplish the thing that they are trying to do (i.e. "browse the web -> firefox") [17:00] jeremymikkola, this is a good idea. [17:00] I was thinking about a button that toggles you between your page and a list like that. [17:01] muscovy, okay, so question is if it goes to a menu of every subject on the tour, or if it goes to an "overview" page like aksharpatel47 was suggesting, with "main topic" buttons leading the user to subtopics from there [17:02] Hmm. [17:02] Maybe overviews. [17:02] We need to pick up the pace a bit. [17:02] We're one hour in. [17:02] Overviews, less intimidating. Menus, more informative. [17:02] And make the sidebar complete, but shrinkable. [17:02] omega, agreed. [17:02] spoken details in the tours ? [17:03] undifined, I dunno, was this intended to be within the scope of the project? [17:03] Maybe at some point. [17:03] Shall we move to difficult ratings? [17:03] Suggest first finishing the project with text-only, then maybe later releases add in spoken details. [17:04] Or jump to docs team stuff? [17:04] docs team. [17:04] muscovy, In the interests of keeping our meeting fairly efficient, I have a suggestion I've used from other organizational meetings: [17:04] speech requires timing [17:05] if you speak the text at normal rate, you get the right timing for the slides [17:05] For those subjects where there seems to be a range of options, just set up a poll at the wiki (or at the Launchpad page, or elsewhere) and invite members to vote on their opinion for the choice. [17:06] muscovy, ^ will mean less time spent in deliberation in this meeting. [17:06] +1 to fieldse's idea [17:06] I will try to communicate with the Docs team about Ubuntu Tour. [17:06] Can this be done? [17:06] Hmm, good idea. [17:06] When I am less sick. [17:06] Ok, omega signs up for the task. =) [17:06] Yay. [17:07] Moving on. [17:07] Screenshots next? [17:07] Screenshots? [17:07] screenshots [17:07] Okay, so what's the deal w. the screenshots / consistency question? [17:07] question about screenshots: should they be from 10.04, or 10.10? [17:07] 10.10 [17:08] it should be from 10.10 [17:08] yep. 10.10 [17:08] k [17:08] I suggested a naming format in the email thread aprilg started - [17:08] And are we using pngs or jpgs? [17:08] jpg [17:08] I prefer png [17:08] we have to update it for 11.04 [17:08] Doh! [17:08] Why png, undifined? [17:08] I would suggest pngs. If we need jpgs, we can make a converter script. [17:09] png images look a lot better if they have text in them [17:09] muscovy, reason? I just suggest jpeg because of size issues. How big is this tour going to be? [17:09] png is free, has better quality, but besides png, I like to see scaleable graphics [17:10] And, muscovy: Are you hoping to get this tour included in future Ubuntu releases default installation? Because the size is going to be a large factor in that. [17:10] fieldse_: I was thinking .png partially because we can go to jpg easily from there, should we need to. [17:10] Wait, yeah. [17:10] :| [17:10] Heh. [17:10] my res is 1950x1080 [17:10] Ah, yeah. There's another issue. [17:10] We can implement tour compression. [17:11] Resolution for screenshot. [17:11] my avg joe or jane might have 1024x786 [17:11] which is why i said scaleable [17:11] svg then? [17:11] Okay, and considering the "tour window" is going to be minus area for toolbars, etc, it's goin to be about size of an average webpage. [17:11] undifined, how are you going to make scaleable screenshots? [17:12] you can't :p [17:12] undifined, Well, technically we *can*. [17:12] But it won [17:12] But it won't scale the way we want it to [17:12] Sort of - I can trace bitmaps in Inkscape pretty well. [17:12] So, we *could* have scaleable "screenshots" in SVG format. Seems like overkill, but ... [17:13] Can we just choose a sane default image size? Or will the application be capable of scaling the images to fit within like 50% of the window? [17:14] muscovy, you know the answer to this ^? [17:14] I feel in the vicinity of 300x300 would do. [17:14] fieldse: we could scale, but I don't know how to set a max scaled size. [17:15] Maybe we could link the images to open larger versions in the image viewer. [17:15] Would vote slightly higher res for some detail, plus fact "square" isn't best form-factor for average screen layout [17:16] Okay, so what's the decision? Can we put this via email vote to the UI/graphics team? [17:16] I think so. [17:16] Should we moce onto programming now? [17:16] and if you choose 400x300, it will not look right on wide screens [17:16] Yep. [17:16] Programming team leadership [17:16] Can we move on to translation & then to programming? [17:17] oh ya, what about where the images are to be stored? [17:17] Okay, translation is short anyway. [17:17] Lauchpad translation support? [17:17] there was a bug filed about that [17:18] I don't know how LP translations work. [17:20] Me neither. [17:20] neither [17:20] Perhaps we should look into asking someone who does. [17:21] brandonj, you suggeted it ? [17:22] maybe we should set this topic aside for now? [17:22] since no one here really has any answers :) [17:22] Ok. [17:22] Good reason to do so. ;) [17:22] I've got 15 minutes left with you here. [17:22] Programmin? [17:22] Yep. [17:22] *Programming [17:23] Muscovy, what is the current "leadership model"? [17:23] Programming team leadership [17:23] I'm not quite sure. [17:23] I nominate MadnessRed. [17:23] He's the most active programmer currently. [17:23] I do too. He's been very useful, we couldn't have the GUI without him. [17:24] alright with me, but does he want to [17:24] We definitely need project leaders for each section. [17:24] We'll ask him when he get's here. [17:25] There needs to be one head at the top of each section, or at least one, or this thing isn't going to happen because no executive decisions will be made. [17:25] fieldse_: Muscovy leads Design, aprilg leads writing, brandonj currently leads programming, I am the organizational leader. [17:25] This is part of the reason for gathering the volunteers list - so a project leader can then "tap" his volunteers for whatever undone that needs filling. [17:25] omega, ah, thanks. [17:26] This would also greatly simplify things for the volunteers to know that there's one contact person at the head of each team. [17:26] Okay, let's move onto User Interface [17:26] User interface. We need a clear descision on what people want to be changed with the gui, preferably pre-prepared mockups could be presented. [17:27] I threw one in ./mock-ups in both branshes last night. [17:27] Here: http://i.imgur.com/PJdZa.png [17:27] It's missing some sort of Home/Menu button. [17:28] Cool. [17:28] I think we should try to decentralize the sidebar for more space. [17:28] I like the ubiquity style [17:28] Like decreate the ont a bit, or make it hidable. [17:28] font* [17:28] decrease the font* [17:29] Okay, needs: home button, collapsible "list of topics" sidebar [17:29] muscovy, I'd be happy seeing the image bigger. [17:30] eh, the screenshot image, that is. [17:30] Another suggestion?: [17:30] I figured there could be 4 or so curves, that are placed based of screenshots size, instead of forcing the screenshot to be that size. [17:31] Add a "search for topics on..." bar at the bottom [17:31] That would be good. [17:31] Can we / are we able to implement a search function? [17:31] It shouldn't be difficult. [17:31] muscovy, what do you mean by curves? [17:32] The section where the grey curves around the screenshot. [17:32] ah [17:32] hm [17:33] Another suggestion: [17:33] If this thing is using CSS styling .. (is it?) ... [17:33] You can have two "end piece" curves on either side. [17:33] With a flat middle section, expandable [17:33] So if user expands the window, the middle area will just stretch between endpieces. [17:34] Ooh, that would be cool. [17:34] solves need for different curves for different resolutions [17:34] :D [17:34] =) [17:34] And useful, since the top of the curve will be more flat than at present. [17:34] Ok. [17:35] So, mind if I take your mockup and hack it up a little tonight? [17:35] so its gonna end up looking like a square/rectangle with rounded edges, right? [17:35] Not at all. [17:35] *corners instead of edges [17:35] Unfortunately, I didn't think to make a .xcf. [17:35] Ok, np. [17:36] So, regarding a previous topic unresolved: [17:36] There's an item on the agenda under screenshots of using "Quickshot"? [17:36] As in the email I responded earlier, does this matter? [17:36] I checked with quickshot, I think its only available with 10.04 [17:36] We could port it. [17:37]