holsteinpersonally i would like to see a live disc00:00
holsteinfor trouble-shooting purposes00:00
holsteini dont think anyone intends to use the thing live for production00:00
holsteinfor that question 'will my device work with JACK'00:01
holsteinand how does that look00:01
ScottLi think troy is brilliant personally, he has focused me to really examine what we do and why, and for that i'm extremely grateful00:01
holsteinand how hard is the setup00:01
persiaI guess.  Lots of stuff behaves differently live (investigate casper for details), so lots of bugs only happen for real or only happen in live sessions.  Depends on the bug, of course.00:01
holsteinthe only way to really do that with ubuntustudio is install it00:01
persiaFor look, we can provide screenshots.  For "Does it work with my device", we can try to build a list of known working devices.00:02
holsteinbut theres always that one guy with that old device00:02
persiaFor "How hard is the setup" the key is to make it so simple that people have finished the install and started doing stuff before they notice that it's complicated technical stuff :)00:02
* persia is that guy00:02
ScottLpersia, do you have any thoughts about simplifying the install process?00:03
ScottLsome have suggested moving away from alternate install to the gui install00:03
holsteinand, i like the way the live installer works00:03
holsteinall hte questions are asked00:03
holsteinand then you hit the button00:03
holsteinyou have to sit with the alternate installer00:04
ScottLi do not think the alternate install is all that bad, but it certainly could be improved in a few places00:04
holsteinAND i realize there are benifits though00:04
persiaScottL, GUI install only works for live images.00:04
persiaThere is a *different* GUI for alternate, but nobody has really tested it much.00:04
ScottLheh, holstein mentioned the alternate install also :P00:04
holsteinand i like the grub install options from the live installer00:05
persiaholstein, Ought be easy to pre-ask all the interesting questions if we want.00:05
holsteinpersia: that would be awesome00:05
holsteinseems like you have to come back about 4 or 5 times00:05
persiaholstein, if you have time, go study "preseeding debian installs"00:05
persiaWell, that's what we do now, with the alternate installer: ask the critical 4-5 questions.00:06
persiaIf we know we're going to ask certain questions, we can ask them in advance.00:06
ScottLwe can also control the context in which they are asked00:06
persiaSome questions can't be asked in advance (like disk partition layout), and have to be interactive.00:06
holsteinpersia: im *all* about that00:07
persiaUbiquity is basically just a python frontend to the alternate installer components anyway.00:07
holsteinwould that be an easy goal?00:07
holsteinfor the alternate ubuntustudio installer to get to ?00:07
persiaTechnically, it's not that hard (mostly simple shell scripts).00:07
holsteinthats really my biggest issue00:08
ScottLpersia, if we divide audio packages into separate meta-packages we will need to update the install for the additional selection00:08
ScottLis this hard?00:08
holsteinhell with the way it looks00:08
holsteinit works great00:08
persiaBut debian-installer is complicated and confusing compared to other things, and the only way to test it is to install, and the only way to test changes is to build a new install image, which makes it fearsome to many folks.00:08
holsteinpersia: i am available to test 00:08
persiaScottL, With seed-based task management, it's essentially automated: we just identify which tasks we install, and adjust the preseeding, and it does the right thing.00:08
holsteinand im into learing whatever i can00:08
holsteinto be more helpful00:09
persiaholstein, If you want to learn about the installer, I can provide some signposts, but I'll recommend first launching the alternate installer, interrupting the install, and looking at all the various scripts.00:09
holsteinpersia: i like that00:10
holsteinpersia: how would i interrupt?00:10
persiaOnce you have an idea about how the parts fit together you can probably make more progress.00:10
persiaThe installation-manual-${arch} package tends to be useful to read as well.00:10
persiaWhen presented with the first question, select <Back>00:10
holsteinthe live CD project is for me to hopefully learn a bit too00:10
persiaThose are two completely different directions :)00:10
holsteinyeah, but i thought that would 'get my feet wet'00:11
holsteinand be easier for me to get my mind around00:11
persiaBut for livecd, just adjust livecd-rootfs and then build an image with the code in the lp:~ubuntu-cdimage/debian-cd/ubuntu repository.00:11
persiaAnything else will be going down the wrong road.00:11
persiaI don't think it's a good idea, but it's simple to do it (but *lots* to learn to do it right: casper and ubiquity are interesting bits of software)00:12
holsteintheres a local guy that does both00:12
holsteinim going to pick his brain soon00:13
holsteini think im still too newb to just figure some of the more technical stuff out on my own00:13
holsteini need to see it00:13
ScottLalso i would like to adjust the installation text to add "LV2" to the install selection for "[   ] LADSPA and DSSI plugins"00:14
holsteinScottL: good call00:14
ScottLi have a note to myself about that, but i wanted to put it out there so others might remember as well00:14
ScottLi also want to develop the workflow page a little more and then send an announcement to the mailing list and forums about it to get user input00:20
ScottLhopefully in a month or so we have a better, more fleshed out version of which packages we want to include and perhaps any changes for additional meta-packages00:21
ScottLrlameiro also suggested an audio meta-package containing pd and a few other applications (chuck is the only other one i can remember being mentioned)00:21
persiaJust in time to start executing for natty :)00:21
ScottLpersia, well, yes, that would be the plan although i feel like we are already running out of time :/00:22
persiaJust be aware of the install experience: try running a Server install to see how confusing it can be if there are too many tasks.00:22
ScottLi've been thinking about a w.u.c. page to help the package selection development, i might get to this during the weekend as well00:22
rlameirofaust, CLAM etc00:22
ScottLsupercollider is not in the archives for either debian or ubuntu00:23
ScottLit is because of a "non-commerical" clause if i remember correctly00:23
rlameiroit is GPL00:23
persiaScottL, The point of the pace of Ubuntu development is that we are *always* running out of time, and so are forced to focus on integration and polish, rather than actually changing how things work.  Improving things ends up being better to do in Debian, and making things really better ought be done upstream.  That said, for us to be successful, we need to closely coordinate with both groups :)00:23
rlameirothat is linuxsampler00:23
persialinuxsampler isn't in the archives because of licensing.00:24
ScottLalthough persia and quadrispro talked about reimplimenting demalloc.cc or some other piece of it00:24
persiaSupercollider isn't in the archives because of some porting bugs that made it unsuitable for several architectures.  Supposedly they are fixed, and artfwo was working on packages.00:24
ScottLoh good00:24
ScottLpersia, quadrispro also mentioned about possibly getting an exception to sync from debian new for natty00:25
ScottLwill this be problematic?00:25
persiaNobody seems to be uploading artfwo's packages though: this is the sort of thing where it would be better to have the packages go into debian-multimedia.00:25
persiaWe don't sync from NEW.00:25
persiaWe can do a parallel upload.00:25
persiaYou're the person in charge of deciding if a new-feature-inclusive package is permitted or not permitted with a frozen archive.00:26
persiaAs long as you're sure it makes things better and doesn't break things, the release team will accept your judgement.00:26
persiaThat said, if you accept something that breaks stuff, you're responsible for making sure the broken stuff gets unbroken before release :)00:26
ScottLlol, of course00:28
ScottLshould we get quadrispro in contact with artfwo and see about moving supercollider into debian then?00:28
ScottLtesting will obviously be the order of the day then so things don't break00:29
persiaThat seems like a good plan.00:30
ScottLbut i don't think we need to include *every* new package, and each new package considered should be closely scrutinized for necessity00:30
persiait's probably worth looking over REVU once in a while, and highlighting packages that look like they ought get considered.00:30
persiaSome need more review, some need handoff to debian-multimedia00:30
ScottLi can do that this upcoming week and coordinate with quadrispro as needed00:31
persiaOnce they are in the archive, they can then be considered components for inclusion as Studio evolves.00:31
ScottLi would really like to get swh-lv2 into natty though (which is in debian NEW currently)00:31
persiaI'm happy to do reviews once in a while too, although I'm not currently able to get stuff into Debian.00:31
ScottLit's not RC of course, but i feel bad that it hasn't been done already00:31
persiaGet quadrispro to upload it and file a freeze exception bug, and then approve the freeze exception bug.00:32
persiaOh, if you don't consider it RC, then it's not maverick: it will end up in natty for sure.00:32
persia(and doesn't need a bug, just needs Debian to release so the Debian ftp-masters start processing NEW again)00:32
ScottLright, but quadrispro said it was an extremely viable that Debian might not release in time for natty :(00:33
persiaDebian is in final release freeze.00:35
persiaThere's something like 100 bugs to be fixed.00:35
persiaIf that can't happen in 6 months, we have huge issues because our upstream is unhealthy.00:35
persia(really 3 months, but Debian froze in the beginning of August, and seems to be about half-way to release since then)00:36
ScottLmaybe he confused maverick and natty, perhaps i miss understood him then00:38
ScottLi certainly hope you are right :)00:39
ScottLupon reflection, given your reaction and others comments about maverick, the comment was probably directed at maverick00:41
ScottLper our conversation earlier with the seeds, i consider maverick frozen and am focusing my energies on making natty absolutely rock :)00:41
* ScottL is going out to eat with family 00:41
persiaGood plan about the frozen bit: be prepared to deal with confused developers who want you to just approve their small upload :)00:43
ScottLpersia, should i expect numerous requests in the next two months for uploads?03:43
persiaScottL, 3 weeks, and probably 15-20 at least.07:37
astraljavaUhh... "The following packages have unmet dependencies:"11:16
astraljavafoomatic-db-compressed-ppds: Conflicts foomatic-db but 20100915-0ubuntu2 is to be installed11:17
astraljavaConflicts: foomatic-db-hpijs11:17
astraljavaNo-one else seriously bumping into this? Is this an amd64 issue only, and people are not testing it?11:17
astraljavaHow does one look into install images for errors like these?11:19
astraljavaAnyone into install image errors? I've got a problem like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/495802/ on Ubuntu Studio amd64 installation, Select and install software -phase.11:23
astraljavaSorry, wrong channel...11:23
persiaJust for edification of anyone watching, 90% of the time that's an architecture-specific problem, and 75% of the time it's temporary.  Checking the LP page for a package & version will report whether it needs action (package fails to build vs. package waiting to build)11:43
astraljavapersia: Thanks, I'm looking into it.12:27
persiaI suspect we failed to make a seed change when -desktop did, personally.12:28
astraljavapersia: There is a seed entry by Colin regarding the issue. What I don't understand is, if foomatic-db-compressed-ppds is to be installed, why doesn't the installer remove foomatic-db?12:35
astraljavapersia: Hmm... it's not apt, is it? It doesn't have conflict handling functionality?12:36
astraljavaDamn, eventhough I could boot into the system despite that error, I couldn't install anything from the install disc, guess too many essential packages got left out.12:43
persiaThe problem is that the installer is telling apt to install both of those at the same time.12:46
persiaapt can only deal with conflicts when it gets told which one you really want.12:46
persiaOh, very annoying.  Installing the metapacakge seems to work.12:48
ScottLastraljava, were you installing ubuntu studio using the latest daily image?14:00
astraljavaScottL: Yes, the nightly of 20100917.19:49
astraljavaI'll try again in a few days.20:02
astraljavaNot exactly sure whether a bug is required, but I suggested a fellow to file one on the mailing list, shouldn't hurt right? Besides, persia's musings were troubling... :)20:05
rlameiroScottL: puredata workflow added, not completed yet, but its almost done20:32
ScottLrlameiro, super awesome!  thanks21:01
ScottLpersia, i'm beginning to find myself understanding your position on PPA's more and more21:14
ScottLespecially after talking ttoine via mailing list and reflecting upon it21:15
ScottLit seems he would want us to stop making the ISO and focus on PPA's because he feels most people use the vanilla livecd21:16
ScottLand then adds the appropriate applications for their use21:16
ScottLit almost seems compulsive or obsessive to focus on PPA's so much21:16
ScottLas far as i see, creating the ISO does not preclude him (or anyone else) from persuing the same installation vector21:17
ScottLalso, if we are spending the time to get an application into a PPA, why shouldn't we spend21:17
ScottLa little more time and get the application into the official archives?21:18
ScottLthe answer is that we should get it into the archives21:18
ScottLi think the PPA's can be extremely useful for something like the -rt kernel which will NOT be in the archives21:18
ScottLbut it seems to be the prime priority to many people :(21:19
ScottLor testing, that is a good example of an appropriate (within the Ubuntu Studio framework) PPA21:21
ScottLi realize i'm probably regurgitating everything you have said to me before :)21:21
ScottLor, probably everything i regurgitated you have said to me before, that is probably more accurate21:24
rlameiroScottL: well, I think you and Persia are right. Not having an iso is not good thing. there are some stuff that can be easier on an ISO, and not everyone wants to be installing things from PPAs21:30
rlameiroalso if someone really likes ubuntu desktop, its only a step away from it :D sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop :D21:30
ScottLthat is very true21:34
ScottLalso, if someone is taking the time to package, then it would be really nice to spend a little more time* and get it into the archives for everyone to benefit from21:34
ScottLtime* = not necessarily direct time21:35
rlameiroScottL: i made it myself, i was having some troubles to read some text because of the dark theme in ubuntustudio, so i changed to the new ambiance theme of ubuntudesktop, and voila problem solved21:35
ScottLsome additional extra direct time packaging to follow convention *is* required21:35
ScottLbut keeping up with the package as it makes it's way into the archives is also time21:35
ScottLperhaps "over time" is a better description21:35
rlameiroyeap, but the best way is to make people packaging to debian21:36
rlameirothat is most important21:36
rlameiroif it get ins debian its so much easier then21:36
ScottLyeah, that is very true :)21:36
* rlameiro installing Puredata on my ARM board...... fingers cross for audio to work :D21:37
ScottLheh, good luck21:37
rlameiroScottL: do you know some graphical tool to upload files via ssh?21:37
rlameirowell, i think nautilus will do :D21:41
ScottLhi ronj23:25
ronjjust created LP #64240523:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 642405 in Ubuntu Studio "package conflict (foomatic-db / foomatic-db-compressed-ppds) causes Ubuntu Studio installation to fail" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/64240523:30
ronjScottL, also updated the iso testing tracker: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/4529/22323:39

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