[00:00] <holstein> personally i would like to see a live disc
[00:00] <holstein> for trouble-shooting purposes
[00:00] <holstein> i dont think anyone intends to use the thing live for production
[00:01] <holstein> for that question 'will my device work with JACK'
[00:01] <holstein> and how does that look
[00:01] <ScottL> i think troy is brilliant personally, he has focused me to really examine what we do and why, and for that i'm extremely grateful
[00:01] <holstein> and how hard is the setup
[00:01] <persia> I guess.  Lots of stuff behaves differently live (investigate casper for details), so lots of bugs only happen for real or only happen in live sessions.  Depends on the bug, of course.
[00:01] <holstein> the only way to really do that with ubuntustudio is install it
[00:02] <persia> For look, we can provide screenshots.  For "Does it work with my device", we can try to build a list of known working devices.
[00:02] <holstein> true
[00:02] <holstein> but theres always that one guy with that old device
[00:02] <persia> For "How hard is the setup" the key is to make it so simple that people have finished the install and started doing stuff before they notice that it's complicated technical stuff :)
[00:02] <holstein> ;)
[00:02]  * persia is that guy
[00:02] <holstein> hehe
[00:03] <ScottL> persia, do you have any thoughts about simplifying the install process?
[00:03] <ScottL> some have suggested moving away from alternate install to the gui install
[00:03] <holstein> and, i like the way the live installer works
[00:03] <holstein> all hte questions are asked
[00:03] <holstein> and then you hit the button
[00:04] <holstein> you have to sit with the alternate installer
[00:04] <ScottL> i do not think the alternate install is all that bad, but it certainly could be improved in a few places
[00:04] <holstein> AND i realize there are benifits though
[00:04] <persia> ScottL, GUI install only works for live images.
[00:04] <persia> There is a *different* GUI for alternate, but nobody has really tested it much.
[00:04] <ScottL> heh, holstein mentioned the alternate install also :P
[00:05] <holstein> and i like the grub install options from the live installer
[00:05] <persia> holstein, Ought be easy to pre-ask all the interesting questions if we want.
[00:05] <holstein> persia: that would be awesome
[00:05] <holstein> seems like you have to come back about 4 or 5 times
[00:05] <persia> holstein, if you have time, go study "preseeding debian installs"
[00:06] <persia> Well, that's what we do now, with the alternate installer: ask the critical 4-5 questions.
[00:06] <persia> If we know we're going to ask certain questions, we can ask them in advance.
[00:06] <ScottL> we can also control the context in which they are asked
[00:06] <persia> Some questions can't be asked in advance (like disk partition layout), and have to be interactive.
[00:07] <holstein> persia: im *all* about that
[00:07] <persia> Ubiquity is basically just a python frontend to the alternate installer components anyway.
[00:07] <holstein> would that be an easy goal?
[00:07] <holstein> for the alternate ubuntustudio installer to get to ?
[00:07] <persia> Technically, it's not that hard (mostly simple shell scripts).
[00:07] <holstein> COOL
[00:08] <holstein> thats really my biggest issue
[00:08] <ScottL> persia, if we divide audio packages into separate meta-packages we will need to update the install for the additional selection
[00:08] <ScottL> is this hard?
[00:08] <holstein> hell with the way it looks
[00:08] <holstein> it works great
[00:08] <persia> But debian-installer is complicated and confusing compared to other things, and the only way to test it is to install, and the only way to test changes is to build a new install image, which makes it fearsome to many folks.
[00:08] <holstein> persia: i am available to test 
[00:08] <persia> ScottL, With seed-based task management, it's essentially automated: we just identify which tasks we install, and adjust the preseeding, and it does the right thing.
[00:08] <holstein> and im into learing whatever i can
[00:09] <holstein> to be more helpful
[00:09] <persia> holstein, If you want to learn about the installer, I can provide some signposts, but I'll recommend first launching the alternate installer, interrupting the install, and looking at all the various scripts.
[00:10] <holstein> persia: i like that
[00:10] <holstein> persia: how would i interrupt?
[00:10] <persia> Once you have an idea about how the parts fit together you can probably make more progress.
[00:10] <persia> The installation-manual-${arch} package tends to be useful to read as well.
[00:10] <persia> When presented with the first question, select <Back>
[00:10] <holstein> the live CD project is for me to hopefully learn a bit too
[00:10] <persia> Those are two completely different directions :)
[00:11] <holstein> yeah, but i thought that would 'get my feet wet'
[00:11] <holstein> and be easier for me to get my mind around
[00:11] <persia> But for livecd, just adjust livecd-rootfs and then build an image with the code in the lp:~ubuntu-cdimage/debian-cd/ubuntu repository.
[00:11] <persia> Anything else will be going down the wrong road.
[00:12] <persia> I don't think it's a good idea, but it's simple to do it (but *lots* to learn to do it right: casper and ubiquity are interesting bits of software)
[00:12] <holstein> theres a local guy that does both
[00:13] <holstein> im going to pick his brain soon
[00:13] <holstein> i think im still too newb to just figure some of the more technical stuff out on my own
[00:13] <holstein> i need to see it
[00:14] <ScottL> also i would like to adjust the installation text to add "LV2" to the install selection for "[   ] LADSPA and DSSI plugins"
[00:14] <holstein> ScottL: good call
[00:14] <ScottL> i have a note to myself about that, but i wanted to put it out there so others might remember as well
[00:20] <ScottL> i also want to develop the workflow page a little more and then send an announcement to the mailing list and forums about it to get user input
[00:21] <ScottL> hopefully in a month or so we have a better, more fleshed out version of which packages we want to include and perhaps any changes for additional meta-packages
[00:21] <ScottL> rlameiro also suggested an audio meta-package containing pd and a few other applications (chuck is the only other one i can remember being mentioned)
[00:21] <persia> Just in time to start executing for natty :)
[00:22] <ScottL> persia, well, yes, that would be the plan although i feel like we are already running out of time :/
[00:22] <persia> Just be aware of the install experience: try running a Server install to see how confusing it can be if there are too many tasks.
[00:22] <rlameiro> supercollider
[00:22] <ScottL> i've been thinking about a w.u.c. page to help the package selection development, i might get to this during the weekend as well
[00:22] <rlameiro> faust, CLAM etc
[00:23] <ScottL> supercollider is not in the archives for either debian or ubuntu
[00:23] <ScottL> it is because of a "non-commerical" clause if i remember correctly
[00:23] <rlameiro> unfortunatly
[00:23] <rlameiro> really?
[00:23] <rlameiro> it is GPL
[00:23] <persia> ScottL, The point of the pace of Ubuntu development is that we are *always* running out of time, and so are forced to focus on integration and polish, rather than actually changing how things work.  Improving things ends up being better to do in Debian, and making things really better ought be done upstream.  That said, for us to be successful, we need to closely coordinate with both groups :)
[00:23] <rlameiro> that is linuxsampler
[00:24] <persia> linuxsampler isn't in the archives because of licensing.
[00:24] <ScottL> although persia and quadrispro talked about reimplimenting demalloc.cc or some other piece of it
[00:24] <persia> Supercollider isn't in the archives because of some porting bugs that made it unsuitable for several architectures.  Supposedly they are fixed, and artfwo was working on packages.
[00:24] <ScottL> oh good
[00:25] <ScottL> persia, quadrispro also mentioned about possibly getting an exception to sync from debian new for natty
[00:25] <ScottL> will this be problematic?
[00:25] <persia> Nobody seems to be uploading artfwo's packages though: this is the sort of thing where it would be better to have the packages go into debian-multimedia.
[00:25] <persia> We don't sync from NEW.
[00:25] <persia> We can do a parallel upload.
[00:26] <persia> You're the person in charge of deciding if a new-feature-inclusive package is permitted or not permitted with a frozen archive.
[00:26] <persia> As long as you're sure it makes things better and doesn't break things, the release team will accept your judgement.
[00:26] <persia> That said, if you accept something that breaks stuff, you're responsible for making sure the broken stuff gets unbroken before release :)
[00:28] <ScottL> lol, of course
[00:28] <ScottL> should we get quadrispro in contact with artfwo and see about moving supercollider into debian then?
[00:29] <ScottL> testing will obviously be the order of the day then so things don't break
[00:30] <persia> That seems like a good plan.
[00:30] <ScottL> but i don't think we need to include *every* new package, and each new package considered should be closely scrutinized for necessity
[00:30] <persia> it's probably worth looking over REVU once in a while, and highlighting packages that look like they ought get considered.
[00:30] <persia> Some need more review, some need handoff to debian-multimedia
[00:31] <ScottL> i can do that this upcoming week and coordinate with quadrispro as needed
[00:31] <persia> Once they are in the archive, they can then be considered components for inclusion as Studio evolves.
[00:31] <ScottL> i would really like to get swh-lv2 into natty though (which is in debian NEW currently)
[00:31] <persia> I'm happy to do reviews once in a while too, although I'm not currently able to get stuff into Debian.
[00:31] <ScottL> it's not RC of course, but i feel bad that it hasn't been done already
[00:32] <persia> Get quadrispro to upload it and file a freeze exception bug, and then approve the freeze exception bug.
[00:32] <persia> Oh, if you don't consider it RC, then it's not maverick: it will end up in natty for sure.
[00:32] <persia> (and doesn't need a bug, just needs Debian to release so the Debian ftp-masters start processing NEW again)
[00:33] <ScottL> right, but quadrispro said it was an extremely viable that Debian might not release in time for natty :(
[00:35] <persia> What!
[00:35] <persia> Debian is in final release freeze.
[00:35] <persia> There's something like 100 bugs to be fixed.
[00:35] <persia> If that can't happen in 6 months, we have huge issues because our upstream is unhealthy.
[00:36] <persia> (really 3 months, but Debian froze in the beginning of August, and seems to be about half-way to release since then)
[00:38] <ScottL> maybe he confused maverick and natty, perhaps i miss understood him then
[00:39] <ScottL> i certainly hope you are right :)
[00:41] <ScottL> upon reflection, given your reaction and others comments about maverick, the comment was probably directed at maverick
[00:41] <ScottL> per our conversation earlier with the seeds, i consider maverick frozen and am focusing my energies on making natty absolutely rock :)
[00:41]  * ScottL is going out to eat with family 
[00:43] <persia> Good plan about the frozen bit: be prepared to deal with confused developers who want you to just approve their small upload :)
[03:43] <ScottL> persia, should i expect numerous requests in the next two months for uploads?
[07:37] <persia> ScottL, 3 weeks, and probably 15-20 at least.
[11:16] <astraljava> Uhh... "The following packages have unmet dependencies:"
[11:17] <astraljava> foomatic-db-compressed-ppds: Conflicts foomatic-db but 20100915-0ubuntu2 is to be installed
[11:17] <astraljava> Conflicts: foomatic-db-hpijs
[11:17] <astraljava> No-one else seriously bumping into this? Is this an amd64 issue only, and people are not testing it?
[11:19] <astraljava> How does one look into install images for errors like these?
[11:23] <astraljava> Anyone into install image errors? I've got a problem like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/495802/ on Ubuntu Studio amd64 installation, Select and install software -phase.
[11:23] <astraljava> Sorry, wrong channel...
[11:43] <persia> Just for edification of anyone watching, 90% of the time that's an architecture-specific problem, and 75% of the time it's temporary.  Checking the LP page for a package & version will report whether it needs action (package fails to build vs. package waiting to build)
[12:27] <astraljava> persia: Thanks, I'm looking into it.
[12:28] <persia> I suspect we failed to make a seed change when -desktop did, personally.
[12:35] <astraljava> persia: There is a seed entry by Colin regarding the issue. What I don't understand is, if foomatic-db-compressed-ppds is to be installed, why doesn't the installer remove foomatic-db?
[12:36] <astraljava> persia: Hmm... it's not apt, is it? It doesn't have conflict handling functionality?
[12:43] <astraljava> Damn, eventhough I could boot into the system despite that error, I couldn't install anything from the install disc, guess too many essential packages got left out.
[12:46] <persia> The problem is that the installer is telling apt to install both of those at the same time.
[12:46] <persia> apt can only deal with conflicts when it gets told which one you really want.
[12:48] <persia> Oh, very annoying.  Installing the metapacakge seems to work.
[14:00] <ScottL> astraljava, were you installing ubuntu studio using the latest daily image?
[19:49] <astraljava> ScottL: Yes, the nightly of 20100917.
[20:02] <astraljava> I'll try again in a few days.
[20:05] <astraljava> Not exactly sure whether a bug is required, but I suggested a fellow to file one on the mailing list, shouldn't hurt right? Besides, persia's musings were troubling... :)
[20:32] <rlameiro> ScottL: puredata workflow added, not completed yet, but its almost done
[21:01] <ScottL> rlameiro, super awesome!  thanks
[21:14] <ScottL> persia, i'm beginning to find myself understanding your position on PPA's more and more
[21:15] <ScottL> especially after talking ttoine via mailing list and reflecting upon it
[21:16] <ScottL> it seems he would want us to stop making the ISO and focus on PPA's because he feels most people use the vanilla livecd
[21:16] <ScottL> and then adds the appropriate applications for their use
[21:16] <ScottL> it almost seems compulsive or obsessive to focus on PPA's so much
[21:17] <ScottL> as far as i see, creating the ISO does not preclude him (or anyone else) from persuing the same installation vector
[21:17] <ScottL> .
[21:17] <ScottL> also, if we are spending the time to get an application into a PPA, why shouldn't we spend
[21:18] <ScottL> a little more time and get the application into the official archives?
[21:18] <ScottL> the answer is that we should get it into the archives
[21:18] <ScottL> .
[21:18] <ScottL> i think the PPA's can be extremely useful for something like the -rt kernel which will NOT be in the archives
[21:19] <ScottL> but it seems to be the prime priority to many people :(
[21:20] <ScottL> .
[21:21] <ScottL> or testing, that is a good example of an appropriate (within the Ubuntu Studio framework) PPA
[21:21] <ScottL> .
[21:21] <ScottL> i realize i'm probably regurgitating everything you have said to me before :)
[21:24] <ScottL> or, probably everything i regurgitated you have said to me before, that is probably more accurate
[21:30] <rlameiro> ScottL: well, I think you and Persia are right. Not having an iso is not good thing. there are some stuff that can be easier on an ISO, and not everyone wants to be installing things from PPAs
[21:30] <rlameiro> also if someone really likes ubuntu desktop, its only a step away from it :D sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop :D
[21:34] <ScottL> that is very true
[21:34] <ScottL> also, if someone is taking the time to package, then it would be really nice to spend a little more time* and get it into the archives for everyone to benefit from
[21:35] <ScottL> time* = not necessarily direct time
[21:35] <rlameiro> ScottL: i made it myself, i was having some troubles to read some text because of the dark theme in ubuntustudio, so i changed to the new ambiance theme of ubuntudesktop, and voila problem solved
[21:35] <ScottL> some additional extra direct time packaging to follow convention *is* required
[21:35] <ScottL> but keeping up with the package as it makes it's way into the archives is also time
[21:35] <ScottL> perhaps "over time" is a better description
[21:36] <rlameiro> yeap, but the best way is to make people packaging to debian
[21:36] <rlameiro> that is most important
[21:36] <rlameiro> if it get ins debian its so much easier then
[21:36] <ScottL> yeah, that is very true :)
[21:37]  * rlameiro installing Puredata on my ARM board...... fingers cross for audio to work :D
[21:37] <ScottL> heh, good luck
[21:37] <rlameiro> lol
[21:37] <rlameiro> ScottL: do you know some graphical tool to upload files via ssh?
[21:41] <rlameiro> well, i think nautilus will do :D
[23:25] <ScottL> hi ronj
[23:29] <ronj> hi
[23:30] <ronj> just created LP #642405
[23:39] <ronj> ScottL, also updated the iso testing tracker: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/4529/223