[00:00] <IdleOne> yeah no kidding
[00:00] <IdleOne> !ops | jandtd is a known troll like the rest of the known trolls from his IP range. All the same person.
[00:02] <jandtd> that really unfair  calling me a Troll
[00:02] <jandtd> Ive been here before without problems
[00:03] <jandtd> one moment you let me in then the next you ban me
[00:04] <jandtd> and then call me a troll
[00:04] <bazhang> any staff around?
[00:05] <jandtd> so it wasnbt staff that banned me
[00:05] <jandtd> can I talk to a member of staff please
[00:05] <bazhang> !staff
[00:06] <jandtd> so why are no staff member telling me Im banned?
[00:07] <jandtd> then telling me im not banned
[00:07] <niko> hum
[00:07] <jandtd> is this so sort of joke?
[00:07] <bazhang> this guy is a known issue
[00:08] <jandtd> bazhang: if thats me your talking about please clarify
[00:09] <niko> jandtd: what are you trying to do ?
[00:09] <bazhang> his exemption has been granted in #ubuntu , yet he wants to stay in here and argue about it
[00:09] <bazhang> this played out exactly the same way last week
[00:09] <niko> jandtd: your first goal, join #ubuntu, is granted, please leave this channel now
[00:10] <IdleOne> I removed the exempt
[00:10] <IdleOne> someone else set it if you chose to
[00:10] <jandtd> I tried to join ubuntu only 15 seconds ago but got Cannot send to channel   so bazhang please stop messing with me
[00:11] <bazhang> jandtd, try now please
[00:13] <jandtd> Im not taking this crap for no reason only came here for some information    anyhow Im off
[00:13] <bazhang> and the exempt is set again
[00:13] <bazhang> whoops
[00:13] <bazhang> sorry niko
[00:14] <IdleOne> see same freaking thing as last time
[00:15] <IdleOne> either he is an habitual troll or I have lost my mind and am the only one who sees the pattern
[00:15] <niko> np
[00:15] <IdleOne> niko sorry we had to bother you with this
[00:15] <niko> really, noproblem
[00:24] <maco> i dont like R's atitude
[00:24] <maco> v elitist
[00:24] <bazhang> yep
[00:24] <bazhang> he's a known element in ##linux
[00:25] <bazhang> [R] huh?
[00:25] <bazhang> and by known I mean highly respected contributor
[00:25] <maco> gah
[00:25] <maco> i hate that planet where being a jerk gets you respect
[00:25] <bazhang> well its the way they want to run things
[00:26]  * maco hugs the CoC
[00:26] <bazhang> but yes he's like wols of old, but less nice
[00:42] <IdleOne> bazhang: did you lift the ban on threembb.ie?
[00:42] <IdleOne> oh you set the +e
[00:42] <IdleOne> nm
[01:28] <bazhang> ugh
[01:28] <bazhang> jandtd
[01:28] <IdleOne> lol
[03:06] <Flannel> bazhang: What's up/
[03:06] <bazhang> Flannel, was jandtd, taken care of thanks
[03:06] <bazhang> set +e as last time
[03:47] <chelz> Flannel: i would like to appeal my ban from #ubuntu-offtopic
[03:48] <chelz> or if anyone else could help with that. IdleOne told me to ask Flannel
[03:54] <Flannel> Hi chelz
[03:54] <chelz> Flannel: hi!
[03:55] <Flannel> chelz: Do you understand why you were banned in #ubuntu-offtopic?
[03:56] <chelz> Flannel: i think for not acknowledging i was displaying traits of having a bad attitude
[03:57] <chelz> Flannel: not responding directly to op requests for example
[03:57] <Flannel> That's an odd way of putting it, but yeah.  That, and not paying attention when you were asked to stop.
[03:58] <chelz> Flannel: yes
[03:59] <Flannel> chelz: Good, glad we're on the same page.  Do you have anything to say about it?
[04:00] <chelz> Flannel: i regret my actions and i apologize to you
[04:01] <chelz> Flannel: and i would like to begin whatever the process is of removing a ban
[04:01] <Flannel> chelz: Are you familiar with the code of conduct?
[04:01] <Flannel> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
[04:01] <Flannel> Please take a moment and read it over
[04:02] <chelz> Flannel: i am. i've read it a few times but i'll read it now.
[04:04] <chelz> Flannel: alright, i have read it
[04:05] <Flannel> chelz: Do you think you understand it, and can use it as guidelines for behavior in the ubuntu community?
[04:05] <chelz> Flannel: i do think i can and i will try to moreso than i have
[04:06] <Flannel> chelz: Alrighty.
[04:07] <Flannel> chelz: I've removed the ban in -ot, please join (you already have) and....
[04:07] <Flannel> ok
[04:25] <IdleOne> +r set
[04:38] <Flannel> For tomorrow, -ots topic was: Welcome to the new, more optimized #ubuntu-offtopic! chat in the spirit of Ubuntu | Read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines and be polite | This is *not* a support channel; try #ubuntu | Sanity is optional, but Common Sense is compulsory: Enforceable by EMP | Be Nice! | No solicitors.
[10:39] <jussi> if anyone wants to review these bans of mine and tell me if you feel I should remove them, please do:
[10:39] <jussi> Hi, please review the ban '*!*@2001:470:23:bf:1488:1488:1488:1488' that you set on Sun Sep 12 05:54:29 2010 in #ubuntu, link: http://ubottu.com/bans.cgi?log=28556
[10:39] <jussi> Hi, please review the ban '*!*@2001:470:23:bf:1488:1488:1488:1489' that you set on Sun Sep 12 06:02:37 2010 in #ubuntu-women, link: http://ubottu.com/bans.cgi?log=28561
[10:39] <jussi> Hi, please review the ban '*!*@2001:470:23:bf:1488:1488:1488:1489' that you set on Sun Sep 12 06:04:11 2010 in #ubuntu-ops, link: http://ubottu.com/bans.cgi?log=28563
[10:44] <topyli> jussi, i would not remove them
[10:59] <bazhang> doesn't really stop him. I'd make it broader, to be honest
[11:00] <bazhang> if that's the cyberwolf92/etc fellow
[13:09] <ikonia> once again ubuntu-tweak makes someones system funny
[13:12] <persia> I thought someone packaged a safe version of that to avoid use of external tweak.
[13:12] <jrib> always just figured it exposed some gconf keys, what did it do ikonia ?
[13:12] <ikonia> well, doesn't look like it
[13:12] <ikonia> why it's even needed I don't know
[13:13] <persia> Hrm.  Indeed.  It was packaged, but didn't get in the archive (maybe it wasn't actually safe)
[13:13] <ikonia> it's turning into automatix the next generation
[13:13] <persia> Some folks don't like defaults, and don't like gconf-editor :)
[13:13] <ikonia> jrib: it now adds external repos and thing slike that
[13:13] <jrib> ah
[13:13] <persia> Oh.  That's undesireable.
[13:13] <ikonia> jrib: why people develop these tools rather than actually build on what's there to improve functionality I don't know
[13:13] <persia> There's *much* better ways to do that (software channels), which ought be used.
[13:14] <persia> ikonia, People often assume "us" and "them" are defined in such a way that they aren't welcome to do so.  Finding out differently often comes as a surprise.
[13:14] <ikonia> "synaptic is rubbish" - so help improve it rather than write a new app
[13:14] <jrib> I guess people like the "every setting in one app" aspect.  So if they don't know how to do something they can just explore 20 million tabs
[13:15] <ikonia> time to take a break
[13:16]  * persia notes that one of the primary developers of synaptic has, in fact, now written two entirely separate new applications to replace it.
[13:39] <ikonia> persia: then that's the blind leading the blind
[13:41] <persia> I guess.  Some folk seem to like software-centre
[13:42] <ikonia> I guess there is a responsability from gnome->distro vendor->users to try to maintain some form of agreed tool set and not mess around too much
[13:43] <ikonia> eg: is software centre ubuntu only ? if so why isn't it being fed back into gnome
[13:43] <ikonia> (as an example only)
[13:43] <jrib> everyone just needs to work on one app: the app that writes apps
[13:43] <ikonia> ha
[13:48] <persia> software centre wouldn't be useful to GNOME, for complicated reasons.  Would be more likely to be useful to Debian, but with significant modification.  I believe gnome-app-install went into Debian, and someone was working on a PackageKit version for upstream GNOME (but I'm not sure)
[13:49] <persia> jrib, It's that kind of thinking that brought us emacs.
[13:49] <ikonia> persia: ok, so why is it being developed rather than a generic tool that can be fed back up stream ?
[13:50] <persia> Not all distributions use the same package management technologies.  Some folk (me included) believe that the ways that packages are related to each other are not semantically compatible between different package management systems.
[13:51] <ikonia> persia: the package format I agree with you, but the tool to wrap it ? maybe not
[13:51] <persia> As a result, package management tools tend to be focused on specific semantic models, and only valid within some family of distributions.  For Debian-derivatives, we share .debs, and therefore apt-style management.
[13:51] <ikonia> I see where you're going, as only debian based systems could currently benifit
[13:52] <persia> That's where PackageKit comes it.  the PackageKit developers believe that it is possible to map the semantics for different package management systems into a common model, and seek to provide an interface to that model.
[13:52] <jrib> persia: I take back everything I said in light of your comment!
[13:52] <persia> Some of our tools (e.g. muon) use that interface.
[13:52] <persia> jrib, Don't get me wrong: I like emacs, just sayin' :)
[13:52] <ikonia> persia: and your thoughts on packagekit ?
[13:54] <jrib> I think I ran emacs once, then quickly ran back to vim
[13:54] <persia> I don't believe it is possible to create a set of semantics that is valid for all package management systems, and I further, and more specifically, believe that the semantics of rpm and deb packages are sufficiently different to be inherently incompatible, even if there exist other package management systems that may be semantically compatible with one or the other.
[13:55] <persia> That said, 99% of users should never care.
[13:55] <persia> They install the system with the distro-provided installer.
[13:55] <ikonia> I guess it will only start to progress if either rpm or deb really takes hold as a dominent format
[13:56] <persia> They add/remove applications using a shiny interface which the distribution is proud to produce, and has extensions to support various services that are aligned with the distribution.
[13:56] <persia> The get notified when there are updates, and dutifully download and install them.
[13:57] <ikonia> agreed
[13:57] <persia> I actually believe that it would be bad for the free software ecosystem for there to be a format monopoly: the fact that we have separate, semantically distinct, formats helps keep upstreams upstream, and define the boundaries regarding what belongs where.
[13:58] <ikonia> I wonder about the opposite, if everyone started pulling towards one format/tool
[13:58] <persia> If that happened, you end up with arguments about whether people should be using a distribution's .foo file or upstream's .foo file.
[13:58] <persia> In order to be compatible, everyone has to have the same ABI.
[13:58] <ikonia> but that's no different than now
[13:59] <ikonia> eg: ubuntu choses debians upstream, rather than their own direct upstream source
[13:59] <ikonia> external repos offer direct, and it's a conflict
[13:59] <persia> Um, except we don't all have the same ABI, and no distribution has any sympathy whatsoever for upstreams who try to make their tool work in various releases simultaneously.
[13:59] <ikonia> I agree, it's an issue
[13:59] <persia> And every distro support person tells folks that third-party repositories are unsupported.
[14:00] <persia> This causes contention, but I believe this contention actually drives innovation and improvements.
[14:00] <ikonia> but people want them because distros (as is the current trend) don't support/maintain existing releases and push things out to the next release
[14:01] <ikonia> you can never please everyone though
[14:02] <ikonia> feeding time
[14:02] <persia> Yep.  What I like optimises for tomorrow, rather than today.  Stability optimises for today, potentially at the expense of tomorrow.  Having both requires twice as much effort.
[15:22] <ikonia> hi Avasz
[15:22] <Avasz> ikonia, hi.
[15:23] <Avasz> I am banned in #ubuntu for about 2 months. Can it be lifted?
[15:23] <ikonia> we where just speaking about your ban in #ubuntu with regard to your part message, so thank you for joining here.
[15:23] <Avasz> oh.. ok.
[15:23] <ikonia> the only issue from the logs I can see if your part message, so I assume you have changed your part message now ?
[15:23] <Avasz> yeah it was changed long time ago.
[15:24] <ikonia> and I assume you won't be setting it to anything silly/dangerous in future ?
[15:24] <ikonia> (while using the ubuntu channels)
[15:24] <Avasz> no. i wont.
[15:24] <ikonia> so I'll ping jpds to make sure he doesn't have a problem (give him 5 - 10 minutes to respond)
[15:24] <ikonia> if he is happy or doesn't respond, I'll remove the ban as you've been quite honest with me discussing this
[15:24] <Avasz> ok. i will.
[15:25] <ikonia> (I've just pinged him)
[15:25] <ikonia> if you can hang around for 5 - 10 minutes and then we'll remove the ban
[15:25] <Avasz> ok. I will.
[15:25] <ikonia> great.
[15:25] <Avasz> thanks.
[15:25] <ikonia> I'm confident there will not be an issue
[15:26] <Avasz> issue means.. like discussions among you?
[15:26] <ikonia> no, I meant no issue removing the ban, and no future issues with your behaviour
[15:27] <Avasz> ikonia, i wont do anything bad. Its been awful. Banned from two favorite channels for 2 months.
[15:27] <ikonia> Avasz: well, I've just removed the ban on #ubuntu for you, your welcome to rejoin
[15:27] <Avasz> ikonia, thank you very much.
[15:27] <Avasz> so i need to leave this channel now?
[15:28] <ikonia> if you're happy the ban is lifted and don't need anything else, then that would be great.
[15:28] <Avasz> ok. thanks. i will
[16:02] <jussi> Ive 2 months free mindmeister for 5 people if anyone needs. just pm me for a code.
[19:22] <teadict> h00k: I miss you! nom nom
[19:26] <IdleOne> heh
[19:34] <Tm_T> based on the filename, that's worth a ban
[19:36] <Tm_T> ah, I was slow
[19:37] <IdleOne> I wanted to make sure the image and the reasoning behind it were what I thought
[20:10] <ikonia> once again the club-ubuntu troll pit kicks in
[20:11] <IdleOne> where at?
[20:12] <ikonia> #ubuntu-women
[20:12] <IdleOne> oh, yeah. happens
[20:34] <Flannel> Wonder what the four is for.
[20:35] <IdleOne> point system that floodbot uses to decide when to +q but exactly what triggered it :/
[23:24] <Flannel> freakout!
[23:30] <jpds>