nisshhhumphreybc: just saw your post on the planet, made me fall off my chair laughing :)06:54
humphreybcnisshh: lolwut06:54
nisshhhumphreybc: the post on Planet Ubuntu about the new Application Review Process06:55
nisshhor whatever its called06:55
humphreybcyeah, howcome you laughed though?06:55
nisshhhumphreybc: the last sentence :)06:55
nisshhhumphreybc: apparently, on the flipside, it is easier to get your app put in the repos for the NEXT version of ubuntu, and then BACKPORTED to all the rest, which is stupid06:58
nisshhthat is what is happening with my app anyway06:59
vishnisshh: not sure, why you are complaining.. if you want to have you app out , you always have ppa! just add a ppa and be done with it! so why is it so essential that you want it in the official repo?  do you realize that there arent many hands to review and upload such new app?07:06
humphreybcvish: PPA's are a nightmare07:08
vishnisshh: while it is understandable about humphreybc's huffin-n-puffin , but what he doesnt seem to have analyzed the root cause of the problem07:08
vishhumphreybc: yes packaging is not easy07:09
vishhumphreybc: but what you are not looking at is, you are insisting that the short staffed MOTU/review peeps have to package your apps within the limited time07:09
nisshhvish: i dont really badly want my app in the repos, but i do dislike the fact that a lot of apps now prefer PPA's over the repos so i now have a billion PPA's aded07:10
humphreybcvish: maybe they should stop packaging shit like pornview and focus on decent apps07:10
nisshhvish: plus, my app is already in a PPA, but the repos would be way more convenient07:11
vishhumphreybc: agreed.. but that package is from debian , not from ubuntu? have you seen where the package is from? ;)07:11
humphreybcvish: I don't care where it's from and regular end-users won't either07:11
vishhumphreybc: ubuntu syncs repos from debian.. so adding exception for pornview is not really easy07:11
humphreybcthe fact is: it's there.07:11
nisshhhumphreybc: exactly, plus what about all the apps that havent been updated in more than 2 years07:11
vishhumphreybc: well, how do you think it should be solved?07:12
vishhumphreybc: i dont think you have tried to look into the packaging side of ubuntu :)07:12
humphreybcvish: I don't know enough about packaging and repositories to comment. From an end user perspective, I want quality apps, not crap.07:12
humphreybcWhatever needs to happen to make that a reality, should be done sooner rather than later.07:12
* nisshh agrees07:13
vishhumphreybc: thats why i said i do understand the "huffin-n-puffin" but there is a problem , which is not Ubuntu07:13
vishyou really cant have the problem solved if no one is working on fixing the root cause07:14
humphreybc(instead everyone is off working on ubuntu one and windicators...)07:15
vishhumphreybc: who is working on windicators?07:15
vish ;)07:15
vishhumphreybc: everyone has different areas of specialities , the ones working on U1 might not know about packaging..07:16
vishand vice-versa07:16
nisshhhumphreybc: dont even get me started on windicators07:16
vishhumphreybc: while you are able to generate these opinion pieces, it would be better, if you can try to get more people involved.. look into the cause find whats the problem, and tell the world these areas need help07:17
vishhumphreybc: else, the problem wont be solved any time soon :(07:17
nisshhvish: actually, that is a good point, but because of the evident gap between users and devs for ubuntu, how are we going to get these sorts of changes accepted into ubuntu?07:19
vishnisshh: hmm, which changes?07:19
nisshhvish: well, big changes like how apps get accepted into Ubuntu and the state of some of the apps in the repos07:20
nisshhyou get those people who dont like drastic change'07:20
nisshhor *sudden* change07:21
vishi dont think there is *that* problem of people being adamant07:21
pleia2I think you'll just see even more companies hosting their own repos for addition07:21
vishits a myth ;)07:21
nisshhpleia2: companies do that?07:22
vishnisshh: google chrome ? ;)07:22
pleia2nisshh: virtualbox and google are big examples07:22
pleia2but plenty others do07:22
nisshhvish: what about google chrome?07:22
nisshhpleia2: ah i see what you mean yes07:22
vishnisshh: how do you think google chrome gets updated? :)07:22
nisshhvish: oh yea, but i use chromium, dont like chrome :)07:23
vishnisshh: well you are using the ppa there too ;)07:23
nisshhvish: yes, i know, but its a launchpad PPA07:23
nisshhchrome is google hosted07:24
vishnisshh: virtual box, dropbox07:24
nisshhok, ok, lol i get the point07:24
vishyep.. when an app developer knows a bit of packaging they start to host their own ppa07:24
visheither lp or somewhere07:24
vishnisshh: the problem as always is there aernt enough people involved07:25
nisshhvish: yes, but the problem i have with PPA's is that i have to add SO MANY each time i do a fresh install its rediculous07:25
pleia2it's still easier than installing an .exe and keeping it up to date :)07:25
nisshhpleia2: yes, i agree :)07:26
vishnisshh: the reason the app review process is a bit stricter is, if it were more flexible, it adds more burden on the existing people07:26
nisshhPPA's are convenient but the repos are better07:26
vishadding more burden, which is not fair.. if there were more packagers , then the process will surely be more flexible07:26
pleia2repos will always have the updating policy restraint, it simply doesn't work for every type of app (one of the reasons I'm delighted that backports.org is now official in debian)07:26
nisshhvish: well, i agree with some of the points about that, but some of them are silly07:26
pleia2delighted - golly, I can't speak english tonight07:27
vishnisshh: everything there is just because of fewer hands ;)07:27
nisshhi see07:27
vishget more peeps involved! you get more fun!07:27
* humphreybc is playing trumpet for the first time in 2 years07:41
* pleia2 covers ears07:41
* nisshh hides07:41
nisshhhumphreybc: i play guitar :)07:41
nisshhand my cousin plays drums :)07:41
humphreybci play trumpet, drums and guitar, and I can sing too :P07:42
humphreybcmight make a one man band :P07:42
vishhumphreybc: you can sing!!!07:43
vishhumphreybc: dint hear you during the all stars event.. ;)07:43
thorwilgood morning!07:43
nisshhhumphreybc: oh, dude, can you upload some vids of you playing guitar to your youtube channel sometime?07:44
nisshhbe awesome!07:44
humphreybcvish: didn't like their music :P07:45
humphreybcnisshh: at some point maybe07:45
nisshhhumphreybc: cool :)07:46
humphreybcthis is what i'm playing atm07:51
* nisshh looks07:51
nisshhhumphreybc: i dont like jazz much :|07:52
humphreybcnisshh: you're missing out :P08:13
nisshhhumphreybc: meh, im a rock fan :) http://www.last.fm/user/nisshh <-- thats not even half my music collection08:14
nisshhnot even 20% of it actually08:15
* popey files bug 644260 if anyone is interested11:44
manualbotLaunchpad bug 644260 in ubuntu "Please package ubuntu-manual" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/64426011:44
dutchiei believe this was attempted before11:48
popeyI asked ben and he didnt have a bug11:48
popeysaid it wasn't a bug, so didnt think he needed one, and didnt know the process11:49
popeydid someone else?11:49
vishdutchie: what was the problem earlier?11:49
dutchiei think the problem we had before was ben wanted it to appear on the desktop, which is sort of hard11:49
dutchienot to mention not the "done thing"11:49
vishdutchie: yeah getting it on desktop, thats not simple..11:49
popeythats not what my bug is about11:49
popeyfirst things first, get it in the repo11:49
popey_then_ worry about getting it anywhere near the cd11:50
popeygoogling "ubuntu-manual needs-packaging launchpad bug" didnt reveal any existing bugs11:50
dutchiepopey: yeah, but ben wanted installing the package to make the manual appear on the desktop11:50
popeyyeah, what he wants and what happens in the real world are some distance apart11:50
popeylets get the focus on the bug to get it in the repo first11:51
popeyif anyone can come up with a nice script to get the current release of the manual in the current locale that would be _awesome_11:51
vishpopey: i think you missed what dutchie was trying to say, or maybe dutchie dint know what ben actually wanted11:51
dutchiei think i was just unclear11:51
popeywhat did I miss?11:51
dutchieben's world: apt-get install ubuntu-manual -> ubuntu-manual.pdf appears on desktop11:52
dutchiereal world: package installs don't touch ~11:52
popeyi totally got that, didnt miss it at all11:52
dutchieand /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual.pdf is kind of hard to find11:53
popeya pre-requisite for any of that is to put it in the repo - a pdf or script or whatever11:53
vishdutchie: why cant a link be done during install?11:53
popeythis shit doesn't just magically appear in the repo or even on the desktop11:53
dutchieobviously not11:53
dutchietechnically speaking, i'm happy to do the package11:53
dutchiei'm just trying to work out the best way to present the manual11:53
popeyagain, dont worry about that11:54
popeystick to the bug which is "get it in the repo"11:54
dutchiethere will also be problems with latex versions11:54
popeyforget all about putting an icon on the desktop, thats a separate bug which can only really be addressed once its in the repo11:54
* dutchie investigates doing a ump-downloader11:54
* popey hugs dutchie 11:54
dutchiegodbyk/daker: ping11:55
dutchiei reckon it will be about 15 lines of python11:55
thorwilhow much of that comments?11:59
dutchieso far i have 4 lines of comment and no lines of code :)12:00
dutchiepopey: could you mark that bug as in progress and assign it to me then?12:02
vishdutchie: usually the people doing the progress do that.. i dont think popey has the privs right now.. assign is only allowed for bug supervisors12:04
dutchiei'll do it later then12:04
AlanBellis there "source" for the pdf?12:07
dutchiesee lp:ubuntu-manual12:07
AlanBellah cool12:08
dutchiei need an option to specify language, but i have already used -l for listing known releases12:58
dakersorry i was unable to attend the meeting13:11
dakerwe were moving to a new house13:11
nisshhdutchie, nice, having a look at the code now13:12
nisshhdutchie, dont forget you will need to account for the printer friendly version too13:14
dutchienisshh: see the --print option13:14
dutchieperhaps a little more feedback would be useful13:15
dutchieit just seems to hang while it download13:15
nisshhi dunno13:16
nisshhiv never written python code that does something like this13:16
dutchiemight be easiest just to run wget13:18
AlanBellwhy not put it in the .deb?13:44
AlanBelljust concerned about someone installing the package on 10/10/10 and getting the manual as of then, if it is updated after that how do they get updates?13:45
dutchiethe manual needs a bleeding edge version of latex to build13:46
dutchiethis is a pain13:46
AlanBellah, that is a pain13:46
dutchieask godbyk13:47
AlanBellgodbyk: so the manual needs a version of latex newer than that which is in Maverick?13:49
AlanBellwould be good to get it built from source on the build infrastructure especially as it is buildable13:50
AlanBellnot like it is an OOo document or something that is printed to a pdf, this builds with make13:50
bilalakhtardutchie: ping14:01
bilalakhtaroh, and pings to popey as well :)14:01
bilalakhtarpopey: Thanks for filing that bug on getting u-m into Ubuntu, what do you think about it?14:02
bilalakhtaroh, ^^ is incomplete14:02
bilalakhtarWhat do you think about it, since getting it into maverick won't be good enough14:03
popeyi filed it because I chatted to ben, and he wanted it on the cd, i said first step was to get it in the repo, and indeed first step of that is to file a bug14:03
popeyhe was unaware of this14:03
popeyso i offered to do it for him14:03
bilalakhtarand I can upload to universe14:03
bilalakhtarwhich is indeed the first place a new package should go to14:03
bilalakhtarpopey: ^^14:03
bilalakhtarthen it should be MIRed14:03
bilalakhtarthen a review should be requested with the ubuntu-desktop team for including it in the CD14:04
bilalakhtarall this is NOT going to happen for maverick14:04
bilalakhtarI think if the package gets into universe, that is the most that can happen14:04
popeyone step at a time14:05
popeynone of that will happen until it's packaged :)14:05
bilalakhtardutchie: You are preparing a recipe, but that won't give a package good enough to enter the repos14:06
bilalakhtarpopey: ^^ is true14:06
dutchiebilalakhtar: ok14:06
dutchiestill gives me a chance to get it buildign14:06
bilalakhtardutchie: recipe builds are known to be having lintian errors, so its adviced to stay away from it14:06
bilalakhtardutchie: yup14:07
bilalakhtarwell, what do we aim for?14:07
dutchiewell, i have a python script14:07
dutchiethat sort-of works14:07
bilalakhtarThe PDF could be installed in /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-manual, and what after that? A link in menu or desktop?14:07
vishbilalakhtar: the bug is what it is.. "just getting it packaged" ;)14:07
bilalakhtarvish: Deign guys needed!14:07
bilalakhtarvish: But that is tagged needs-packaging14:08
bilalakhtarand hence it means14:08
vishbilalakhtar: first package.. then linking everything else we can worry later..14:08
bilalakhtar'Get this thing into Ubuntu'14:08
bilalakhtarvish: But what would the package do?14:08
bilalakhtarCopy a file into /usr/share/doc/*, fine, but after that?14:08
dutchiehttp://launchpad.net/ump-downloader is what I have so far14:08
vishit will install in the doc folder.. then we can file bug later to get a link in desktop14:09
vishbilalakhtar: ^14:09
popeyi would not focus on what we do after its in the repo14:09
* bilalakhtar looks at dutchie 's branch14:09
popeythe first step is 'get it into the repo14:09
vishbilalakhtar: exactly what popey said, he filed the bug.. ;)14:10
bilalakhtarI don't get the point in doing this14:10
bilalakhtarWe should be very much clear with the first point14:10
bilalakhtarand if I follow what vish is suggesting14:10
bilalakhtarwe would need 2 FFes14:10
bilalakhtarone for the new package14:11
bilalakhtarother for the link addition, whenever it takes place14:11
dutchiethe problem with building the manual is that it requires bleeding edge latex14:11
bilalakhtarShouldn't we upload a pre-built manual? the pdf itself, right?14:11
bilalakhtarBut that would mean the package would enter multiverse and not universe14:11
dutchieanother problem is we don't have one of those yet :)14:12
popeythere isn't just one manual14:12
popeythere's a pdf per lang14:12
dutchiein both on-screen and print versions14:12
bilalakhtarokay, so does maverick have latest latex?14:13
dutchienot sure14:13
popeyit doesn't have what's needed, no14:13
vishbilalakhtar: i'm not suggesting that we focus on the link to desktop.. i said we can think about that later, once this packaging is done .. ;)14:13
dutchiei haven't actually tested it, but i don't think it does14:13
bilalakhtarokay, fine, I go with vish's idea14:13
bilalakhtardutchie: What do you aim to do, then? pre-built manual or manual source?14:14
dutchiei couldn't see a way round the latex issue14:14
dutchieso i thought pre-built was the only way really14:14
popeythere is a precident14:15
bilalakhtarI would need more suggestions from the motu team about this14:15
bilalakhtarpopey: wrong spelling14:15
popeybilalakhtar: chill14:15
popeyhmm, i thought that came as a pdf14:16
popeyclearly not, its html14:16
popeymy bad14:16
popeycan the manual be built as html and not pdf?14:16
bilalakhtarben is not around :( Any experienced member of the u-m team?14:17
bilalakhtarAFAIK its a 'NO'14:17
dutchieno, it can't14:17
dutchieit's been on the todo list for a while iirc, but this is godbyk's area14:17
dutchiethat would probably require latex again anyway14:18
popeyof course, silly me14:19
AlanBellwhat version of latex does it need?14:21
dutchieThe Ubuntu Manual requires TeX Live 2009. The version of TeX Live in the Ubuntu 9.10 repositories is 2007. In Lucid, there are packages for TeX Live 2009, but they are not new enough. You must use the upstream version of TeX Live 2009 to compile the manual successfully.14:22
dutchieoff http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/editors14:22
dutchiehopefully godbyk will appear and be able to answer these technical questions properly14:23
AlanBellLucid had texlive 2009-7 and Maverick has 2009-1014:26
AlanBell217MB of downloads, lets see if it will build on that14:29
AlanBellif not then we check that a suitable version is in Debian for the sync to Natty14:30
AlanBellor fix the latex source of the manual to not depend on such a recent texlive14:30
AlanBell! LaTeX Error: File `xifthen.sty' not found.15:09
manualbotAlanBell: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)15:09
AlanBellmeh silly bot15:09
AlanBellI installed texlive and texlive-xetex15:10
AlanBellgetting that error about xifthen.sty - any ideas?15:10
AlanBelllooks like it is in texlive-latex-extra15:14
AlanBellcriky another 210MB of stuff15:16
godbykbe with you all in just a few minutes.15:16
godbykmaking my way through my email inbox.15:16
popeyAlanBell: i do not have that package installed15:16
popeybut then i just used the script on the site to setup the environment15:16
AlanBelldownloading the upstream texlive?15:16
popeywhich was not ideal15:17
AlanBellI want to see if it will build against dependencies in Maverick15:17
popeyi tried that i think15:17
popeymaybe not15:17
popeyi just did what i was told :)15:18
* AlanBell never does that15:18
AlanBelltexlive-latex-extra depends on texlive-latex-extra-doc which is 193MB of documentation for it15:20
dutchiethat's a bit crap15:20
dutchienot a Recommends?15:21
AlanBellI did apt-get install texlive-latex-extra15:21
dutchietry with --no-install-recommends15:21
AlanBellnot stopping it now!15:22
godbykokay. back now.15:22
godbykso fill me in.15:22
godbyk(I could read the backlog, but it'll take me a few minutes.)15:22
popeygodbyk: i filed a bug to get u-m in the repo15:22
dutchieAlanBell: it will have cached the downloads15:22
godbykpopey: right. saw that.15:22
popeyas the first step towards world domination15:22
AlanBelldutchie: you are right, it is a recommends15:22
AlanBelldutchie: partial downloads?15:23
popeythe guys are working on making it build, so it can be built on launchpad15:23
popeyAlanBell: if it hasnt finished downloading, just ctrl+c it15:23
popeyit wont harm it15:23
godbykDo we get any feedback from Launchpad as to what's failing?15:23
popeywe havent tried15:23
popeyi suspect we know that its missing newer texlive packages15:23
popeya good test is just getting it built locally using stock maverick packages15:24
popey(for some reason I went to type mandrake then)15:24
godbykseems sensible.15:24
dutchiewhich is what AlanBell is doing now15:24
popeyso now, you are up to speed godbyk :)15:24
godbykanything I can do to help?15:24
popeythe other option15:25
popeyit build to html15:25
godbyk(I don't have mandrake^Wmaverick installed yet.)15:25
dutchieyou can be on call to fix build errors15:25
popeywhich could then be packaged15:25
AlanBellgodbyk: do you think it will build against texlive 2009-10?15:25
popeyrather than having launchpad build a pdf15:25
popeygodbyk: whats the status of the manual being built to html?15:25
godbykpopey: I think think building to html will work -- at least not without a ton of extra effort.15:25
popeythat doesn't parse quite right15:25
popeyyou think it could be made to with lots of work?15:26
godbykpopey: well, the usually tools for tex -> html apparently choke on the stuff we're doing because they don't understand unicode.15:26
popeythe only reason we thought about html build was because there is already a book in the repo which is in html format15:26
popeydive into python15:26
popeyso there is a prescident15:26
godbykah, gotcha.15:26
popeybut thats just an alternate option15:26
dutchiepopey: precedent ;)15:26
popey(and thanks)15:26
popeythe other, other, other option was for you guys to build / host it, and just package a script that wgets the right version for your release/lang15:27
popeybut thats a touch icky15:27
dutchiei have done that15:27
popeyah, great15:27
popeywould be 'preferable' to have it build on lp15:27
popeyok, so _now_ you're up to speed15:27
godbykI think the wget script would be the easiest of those options, frankly.15:28
godbykbut yeah, it'd be great if we could get it to build on lp15:28
dutchieit is, because i have already done it15:28
dutchiegodbyk: http://launchpad.net/ump-downloader15:28
godbykso where are we on the 'let's get it to build on lp' attempt?15:29
dutchiewe're at the "let's get it to build on AlanBell's computer" stage15:29
godbykdutchie: I love the map at the top of your python script.  looks like a deranged monkey threw spaghetti at the wall and you traced the pieces and coded it up.15:30
dutchiegodbyk: is that a compliment?15:31
godbykdutchie: I'll let you know. :)15:31
AlanBellccicons.sty needed now15:33
godbykAlanBell: They *still* haven't packaged ccicons?15:34
dutchiei suppose it can't be *that* hard to package ourselves...15:34
AlanBellnot looking good15:34
godbyklemme look at it. I may have a trick that'll work.15:35
godbyk(though it'll definitely be ugly)15:35
godbykactually it'll be a real PITA.. since the ccicons package uses a ccicons font, that complicates things.15:36
* popey can't help thinking this would have been a fun thing to do maybe 6 months ago :)15:37
godbykpopey: heh.. not even then!15:37
AlanBellwell I don't think we are realistically targeting Maverick at this stage15:37
godbykit'd be fun if the texlive packages would be updated occasionally.15:37
popeyno, i dont think so either15:38
popeya ppa would be good15:38
popeyso it can easily be added to software center/re15:38
AlanBellgodbyk: so we need to do a packaging request bug for ccicons then I guess15:39
godbykAlanBell: among others, yeah.15:40
popeyI'd get missing packages in a ppa for now15:40
popeymind you, bug filing could still be done15:40
godbykIt looks like there are other PDFs that have been packaged. I don't know if they're all generated with LP or not.  http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=contents&keywords=pdf&mode=&suite=lucid&arch=any15:40
godbykAlanBell: run 'texdoc fontspec'  does that open up a pdf?15:41
godbykI know that that PDF wasn't compiled via LP, at least.15:41
AlanBellit does open a PDF15:45
godbykAlanBell: so there's some precedent for including PDFs not built via LP.15:46
AlanBellwell yes, but it nearly builds so lets make it build15:46
AlanBellwhich will help it on the way to getting into main15:46
AlanBelland on the CD15:46
AlanBellquick and dirty would be to put the PDF in a .deb doing the downloader script is also a bit icky15:48
godbykpopey gets no votes! :-)15:49
AlanBellif getting it to build means fixing broken stuff in the texlive packaging then that is fantastic15:49
popeystory of my life15:49
godbykAlanBell: Right. Well, if you want to give it a shot.  Go here: http://ctan.org/pkg/ccicons. Download those files and follow the instructions in the README to install them.15:50
godbykFWIW, TeX Live 2010 was released last week.15:51
AlanBelldoes the debian maintainer know that?15:52
dutchiehasn't been uploaded yet15:52
dutchiestill 2009-10 in sid15:52
AlanBellgodbyk: so do I download the files and create that directory structure inside my ubuntu-manual directory?15:54
godbykAlanBell: I would snag the lucid-e1/pkgs dir.. it contains the ccicons.zip file and has a bash script that contains a function that'll put the files where they need to go.15:56
godbykAlanBell: note that you can't run the script as it stands.  you'll need to just run the ccicons-related function.15:56
godbykAlanBell: though I guess you could snag an older version of the script that would work. lemme find it for ya.15:56
godbykAlanBell: you can try lucid-e1/pkgs r170.  I make no promises.16:04
AlanBellso where is that then?16:06
godbykAlanBell: in the lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/ repository, pkgs directory (revision 170)16:07
AlanBellok, so take a bzr branch of that then?16:11
godbykAlanBell: yeah, just check that revision out of bzr.16:12
godbykthen you can go into the pkgs/ dir and run ./install-pkgs.sh16:12
godbyknote that there may be other issues after you install ccicons.16:13
godbykI don't know if the maverick packages have fixed the problems we had with the lucid packages.16:13
AlanBellwell lets find out, if they are not, then we ask for them to be fixed for Natty16:15
AlanBellhmm, it asked for sudo password then hung16:19
godbyklook at the install-pkgs.log file. any errors?16:19
AlanBellAfter this operation, 264MB of additional disk space will be used.16:20
AlanBellnot hung just silent and large16:20
AlanBelltexlive-fonts-extra is most of it16:21
godbykah. in the 'hung' window, press Enter.16:23
godbykit's probably waiting for a 'go-head: yes/no?' response or something.16:23
godbykit's a very, very early version of the script, so it wasn't written all that well.16:24
AlanBellI think it is getting stuff16:24
godbykyeah, it's installing some packages.16:24
godbykit may take a bit depending on how many packages it's downloading.16:24
AlanBellis this channel logged?16:25
godbykAlanBell: yes16:30
manualbotOfficial channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/16:34
dakergodbyk, ping17:12
dakergodbyk, are the staging server ready ?17:12
dakergodbyk, if you can't host it we can tell dutchie to host it17:17
godbykdaker: not yet. sorry, I've been busy with other things.17:38
godbykif dutchie wants to host it, that's fine with me.17:38
dutchiei don't mind either way17:38
godbykotherwise, I'll try to get it up and running in the next day or two.17:38
dutchiethe difference is, i have a transfer quota and godbyk doesn't :)17:39
dakerdutchie, godbyk oh17:40
godbykIf you can give me a couple days, I'll try to get it running on my site.17:41
godbykI've just been busy with work and haven't gotten back to the website stuff yet.17:41
AlanBellsiunitx.sty not found17:50
godbykAlanBell: I'm not sure if we're actually using it. Let me look.17:54
godbyklooks like it's not required.17:55
godbyklet me update the repository.17:55
godbykAlanBell: okay, run 'bzr pull' and try it again.17:56
AlanBellNo revisions to pull.18:03
AlanBellI have revno 4918:04
godbykoops. forgot to push. try it again.18:08
AlanBellFont \zf@basefont="Linux Libertine O" at 10.0pt not loadable: Metric (TFM) fi18:09
AlanBellle or installed font not found.18:09
AlanBellthat should be in texlive-fonts-extra, but I have that18:11
AlanBelllets try installing ttf-linux-libertine18:12
AlanBellok, doing stuff now, and my pizza is ready18:12
godbykokay, make sure you have the linux libertine font installed.18:15
godbykeither the ubuntu pkg ttf-linux-libertine (or whatever it's named) or downloaded from http://linuxlibertine.sourceforge.net/18:16
AlanBellok, that worked with the packaged font18:21
AlanBellCall to xindy failed (errno=32512):18:21
AlanBellsh: xindy: not found18:21
AlanBellinstalling xindy now18:22
godbykSeriously?! They don't have xindy yet either? C'mon!18:22
AlanBellit is in the repos18:23
AlanBell!info xindy18:23
godbykthere was some index-related problems we had with lucid..18:23
godbykmaybe it was makeglossaries.18:23
AlanBellSuccess!  Wrote 166 pages18:26
AlanBelllooks good18:27
AlanBellevince main.pdf shows me the manual, it looks OK to me18:27
godbykdoes it have the glossary and index?18:28
AlanBellyes and yes18:29
AlanBellclicky links in the index work18:29
godbyknow how do you get launchpad to handle all that?18:29
AlanBellbuild dependencies18:29
AlanBellI am just a bit suspicious of what the install-pkgs.sh did in terms of CTAN stuf18:30
godbykit only installed ubuntu packages plus the ccicons package.18:31
godbyk(at least the version you have.  the newer one installs pkgs from ctan)18:31
AlanBellok, good18:31
AlanBellso ccicons needs sorting out, the rest is easy18:32
AlanBellor straightforward at least18:32
godbykyou've only tried the english version so far. :-)18:33
AlanBellhow do I build the others?18:34
godbykwell, for maverick you can't yet.18:34
godbykin the lucid branchines, you can type 'make ubuntu-manual-XX.pdf' where XX is the language code.18:35
AlanBellI don't know much about packaging, but one source package can create multiple binary packages18:36
AlanBellnot sure if all languages should be in one .deb or if there should be a .deb per language18:36
godbykprobably one per language.18:40
jenkinsdutchie: ping19:17
dutchiejenkins: pong19:24
jenkinshey the bug about packaging the manual how is that going?19:25
jenkinsI don't see the actuall packaging being an issue but its how people find it that is the problem19:25
AlanBellfirst it has to be packaged19:25
jenkinsthe packaging is the easy bit19:25
AlanBellyes, so lets do it19:26
jenkinsI wanted to do it ages ago and am happy to get it done tonight19:26
AlanBellI managed to run make and build the manual using texlive and packages all from maverick19:26
jenkinsyou will have to build the manual and put it in a package. launchpad will never be able to build the manual its self19:27
jenkinsccicons is not on a launchpad machine and not in maverick. I made the package for it which is in the latex ppa that I am working on19:28
jenkinsccicons being a font19:28
AlanBellok, so why can't ccicons go in the repos?19:28
AlanBellccicons was the only bit that was a problem, the rest was packages in maverick19:29
jenkinsit could rather obvious soultion, I think its gpl v3. i have a package for that already some where19:29
jenkinsI will dig it out and see what I can drum up19:30
AlanBellso ccicons is the only reason launchpad couldn't build it?19:31
jenkinsI need to double check19:33
jenkinsand xindy has not been transfered from debian it always fails to build when getting into ubuntu19:34
jenkinsbut that can also be fixed19:34
AlanBellxindy was fine19:34
jenkinswow so it is they have fixed it this release19:35
* jenkins jumps for joy19:35
AlanBellif the manual builds from source then it is a much better package so has a better chance of getting further down the repos in an on the CD direction19:36
jenkinsthats no problem I can sort it out I will see how much i can get done tonight19:36
jenkinsI have the ccicons package that works I just need to triple check it for errors19:37
jenkinsdutchie: how far have you got with the packaging so far?19:37
dutchienot very far19:39
jenkinsok godbyk I think you told me it was ok but am I alright to package it for ubuntu when it has this licence http://paste.ubuntu.com/497902/19:40
jenkinsk how much? so I don't duplicate what you have done19:40
dutchiewell i wrote http://launchpad.net/ump-downloader and made a vague start on packaging that19:41
dutchiebut i haven't done much/anything on the actual manual19:41
jenkinsthat was something I started to do but then talking to the motu guys they were not very happy with that way of doing it. I woul dhave to dig out the logs for it it was a while ago19:42
jenkinswell soemthing along that lines19:42
jenkinsyou need to add a gui to tell them that there language is not avlible19:43
jenkinsor a popup19:43
dutchiethe idea was to make a separate binary package for each language19:44
jenkinsok so we do a package per language, and only ever do that once?19:45
jenkinsis that the idea?19:45
dutchiewe have one source package generating a binary package for each language19:45
jenkinsk, i follow19:46
jenkinsare ubuntu allowing new packages in to the repos after release now?19:46
dutchieyou talking about the app review board?19:47
AlanBellbut realistically I think we are targeting Natty19:47
AlanBellthe important thing is to make sure stuff like ccicons actually gets in properly so that the manual can be built19:48
jenkinshmm, well if we get another language completed how do we update it. we have either got to have one intelligent binary that works out the language or we need to think of every possible language. So that we don't have to update mid cycle19:48
* jenkins is double checking licence files19:49
dutchiethe problem i can see is that the manual won't be finished until far too late to get it into the release relevant to it without a huge fuss19:50
AlanBelldutchie: not a major problem if it is already in19:50
jenkinsyea I know its a chicken and egg19:50
dutchieAlanBell: you think so?19:50
dutchiei suppose it's not like it's a core lib19:50
AlanBellif the package is in then an update to it as an SRU has a good reason, and is low risk19:50
jenkinsso a package with a draft in AlanBell?19:51
AlanBellI am sure it would be a pretty good draft19:51
AlanBellbut if the package isn't in then you are screwed19:52
jenkinsbut then would we do that for every language.19:52
jenkinsI get the idea I am working on it19:52
AlanBellI am not sure on the languages question19:52
AlanBellhow many languages is it translated to?19:52
dutchiewhich edition?19:52
jenkinswell I think 3 released maverick right dutchie?19:53
dutchieenglish, greek and german19:53
AlanBellone option would be do it in one package and just install them all19:54
=== ZachK_ is now known as zkriesse
jenkinsand do a detecting icon that worked out what version to give you biased on the available versions and the lanugage you have. sound good?19:55
AlanBellas for visibility of it to users, why not just create a .desktop file that puts it in applications-other19:55
AlanBelland yeah some fancyness in the .desktop or in what the .desktop calls to launch the right pdf19:56
jenkinswell to use an argument that may come up not my opinion. It then give the user two places to look for help. Help centre and the manual19:56
jenkinsI agree with your thinking AlanBell, its some thing that has come up before19:57
AlanBellyes, it is two places to look for help, but it is an optional package. If the help centre wants to integrate better with the manual down the line then that would be great19:58
dutchiedon't want to upset the docs team again19:59
AlanBellI think multiple languages in one package is the easiest solution for now, it allows for additional languages to be added without adding more packages19:59
AlanBellas it isn't going on the CD any time soon we don't need to give a toss about a minor space inefficiency20:00
dutchieseeing as the apps review board isn't going to help :(20:00
AlanBellwhy wouldn't they help?20:00
dutchieapparently they won't accept docs20:00
dutchieonly actual apps20:00
AlanBelloh that20:00
jenkinsI am glad this is making some progress20:01
AlanBellmeh, get the package done, submit it, see if they reject it20:01
AlanBelleither way the idea is to get it into Universe20:02
dutchiethis is AlanBell not playing by the rules again :)20:02
godbykgah.. people talking and I didn't notice.20:06
godbyklemme read the backlog.20:07
jenkinsk ccicons is getting there20:12
godbykre: multiple languages in one package.. sounds fine, except that at ~4.5 MB per PDF, that's pretty expensive -- especially when you only really want one of those.20:12
godbykjenkins: ccicons license is probably okay.  Just use whatever is in the README: http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/ccicons/README20:13
Andre_Gondimhi, I have some questions about translations20:15
godbykAndre_Gondim: Ask away.20:15
Andre_Gondimif I have {string} do I need translate the string ?20:15
godbykAndre_Gondim: It depends.  I'd suggest looking at the Translations chapter in the style guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf20:16
godbykIt'll give you a list of {string} that should and shouldn't be translated.20:16
godbykNo problem.20:16
godbykWhat language are you working on?20:17
jenkinsthanks godbykI did have a read of the licence and it is fine20:17
jenkinsgodbyk: how do i work out the ccicons version number?20:18
dutchieit's just a date iirc20:19
godbykjenkins: the latest version is 1.1.20:19
godbykreleased 2009-12-1420:20
jenkinsi assume that is the same as the one here http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/ccicons/20:20
Andre_Gondimgodbyk, pt_BR20:21
jenkinshow mnay people are running maverick with no ccicons installed but texlive full20:21
godbykAndre_Gondim: Ah, cool.20:21
jenkinsthanks godbyk20:21
Andre_Gondimlike this case "\newglossaryentry{applet}{name={applet}, description=" may I translate applet between { } ?20:22
godbykAndre_Gondim: nope. leave the first applet alone. translate the second one.20:22
godbyk(name={transate me}, description={translate me}, plural={translate me}20:22
godbyk\newglossaryentry{don't translate me}20:22
jenkinsin the change log what is the best thing to write as its first entry? I want to get it write so it can get in asap20:25
* jenkins runs to find motu docs to check for missing items20:27
godbykchangelog for ccicons?20:28
jenkinsthere is no ccicons change log. I ment the debian change log20:28
godbykwell, ideally, ccicons should probably be included in one of the existing texlive packages (like texlive-fonts-extra).20:28
* jenkins is aming to upload by tonight20:28
Andre_Gondimin this case Welcome to \emph{Getting Started with Ubuntu},  may I translate it?20:29
godbykthe changelog for the ccicons package itself (per its docs):20:29
godbykVersion 1.0 (2009/11/29): Initial version20:29
godbykVersion 1.1 (2009/12/14): New font with additional glyphs20:29
jenkinsdoes it have to? cos then we have to get it though debian20:29
godbykAndre_Gondim: yes.20:30
godbykAndre_Gondim: \emph{this text is in italics and should be translated}20:30
jenkinsare yes found that godbyk20:30
godbykjenkins: I have no idea whether is has to it not.  I don't know any of the rules for this stuff.  (It all seems fairly insane to me.)20:30
thorwilany thoughts on http://www.foopics.com/showfull/ca23a75c684b610a91d9916b3e437834  ?20:31
jenkinscool seperate package is a mile easier if we can get it in that way.  should we get it into debian first?20:31
jenkinsthorwil: it looks great, but i never understood what was wrong with the previous version20:32
jenkins / 10.04 version20:32
dutchie"Initial release", jenkins20:32
godbykthorwil: Where'd the color for the icons come from?20:32
jenkinsthanks dutchie20:34
AlanBellany plans to set the manual in the new Ubuntu font?20:34
godbykAlanBell: Not yet, at least.20:34
dutchiei don't know if anyone got a needs-packaging bug for ccicons20:34
dutchiebut you'd reference that if it exists20:35
godbykThe font's not ready and I don't know if it works well with our current design.20:35
jenkinsI will search for the bug before i upload20:35
jenkinsI am spending about 20 mins double checking20:36
jenkinsno bugs for it20:38
AlanBellgodbyk: totally agree, it was just something that popped into my head looking at thorwil's screenshot. Not even sure the font will make it into Maverick at this stage20:39
thorwiljenkins: well, that's why i only changed things a bit, instead of going for something new20:39
thorwilgodbyk: it's the ubuntu orange20:40
jenkinsthorwil: can you reduce how far in the fadeing goes? If that makes any sense20:40
Andre_Gondimafter \gls{string} this string is translatable?20:41
godbykAndre_Gondim: nope20:42
thorwiljenkins: it does. guess i have to play with that a bit20:42
godbykthorwil: 'kay. 'cause I'm apparently supposed to explore the aubergine and orange for colors in the manual (instead of brick red).20:42
jenkinscan we go into the debate about the colours an their meanings :P and why we should not use aubergine :P lol20:43
godbykNot much of a debate on my part. I've read the design statements on their use. :-)20:44
jenkinsI don't want to start it really20:44
thorwilgodbyk: not that the brick red must stay as is, but aubergine for links? ridiculous20:44
godbykthorwil: I don't think aubergine will be the link color because it won't print well anyway.20:45
thorwilgodbyk: and you're in a strong position. nothing moves if you don't make it to, there ;)20:45
godbykthorwil: heh. true.20:45
godbykthorwil: do you have the color codes handy for the orange you used for the icons?20:45
* jenkins hmm I need to redo some of the package20:45
godbyk(I think I've seen too many variants floating around.)20:45
thorwilgodbyk: dd481420:46
Andre_Gondim\textit{central pane} translatable?20:47
AlanBell#dd4814 is the RGB colour specification of Ubuntu community orange20:47
AlanBellthe CMYK specification is rather different for reasons that seem to relate to Macs being crap at colours20:48
thorwilgodbyk: that's the web/screen color, though20:48
thorwilit's not like using the other color definition would get us anyway regarding fidelity in print20:49
godbykwell, right now we print the interior in black and white.20:50
godbyk(I have it turn off the color links)20:50
godbykthe color I use for the links needs to look readable on screen and on home printers.20:50
godbykthe color you gave me might be a little too light when converted to greyscale by the printer.20:51
godbyklemme print a page to test.20:51
godbykit seems pretty light with my printer.20:54
godbykI'll have to see if there's a darker shade I can use.20:54
godbykhey, humphreybc20:58
Andre_Gondim\variable{connection name}}  is translatable it?21:01
godbykAndre_Gondim: yes.21:01
jenkinshey humphreybc21:02
humphreybcSomeone went through the OMG! Ubuntu! comments and very carefully flagged all of mine and Tyler's :P21:02
cassidyjamesHaha! That's awesome.21:03
cassidyjamesI mean... not... cool.21:03
jenkinslol thats an interesting idea21:03
cassidyjamesIt wasn't me though. I just got a laugh from it. :P21:03
humphreybcsure sure21:04
thorwilhumphreybc: this is slightly outdated now, but: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/ca23a75c684b610a91d9916b3e43783421:05
thorwiland i have to run. good night!21:05
* jenkins will get this packaged tonight even if I fall asleep at work21:05
AlanBellhumphreybc: the manual nearly builds on Maverick, just needs ccicons packaged21:06
AlanBellthen it can be built from source and an icon put in the menus \o/21:06
humphreybcAlanBell: like, latex source?21:06
humphreybchear that Kev?21:06
humphreybcgodbyk: nudge21:07
AlanBellI built it on my laptop, just had to install the ccicons, everything else came from the repos21:07
godbykAlanBell: so far. I might break it again soonish, though. :-)21:07
humphreybcah but latex is pretty large, no?21:07
godbykhumphreybc: yeah, I helped him.21:07
humphreybcit would pull in like 2 gigs of dependencies :P21:07
AlanBellyeah, flippin huge, but who cares?21:07
humphreybcI think the best thing to do would be a package that runs a wget script21:07
humphreybcAlanBell: I guess that would help with contributors21:08
humphreybcmaybe we have one package for end users21:08
humphreybcwhich is just a script21:08
humphreybcdoes a wget21:08
AlanBellwget scripts are icky and for lame stuff like flash21:08
humphreybcanother package for contributors21:08
humphreybcinstalls all the latex shit21:08
AlanBellthe binary wouldn't have all that shit in it21:08
humphreybcthen our instructions to get contributors helping on maverick and beyond can just be install this21:08
humphreybcyeah of course21:08
AlanBelllatex is just a build dep21:08
AlanBellso soyuz would get a hammering21:09
humphreybcwell that could work then21:09
AlanBell< AlanBell> yeah, flippin huge, but who cares?21:09
AlanBellthat makes it a much nicer package as it builds cleanly from source21:09
AlanBellit would also mean that editors would just have to do apt-get build-dep ubuntu-manual and check out the bzr branch21:10
jenkinsthe trouble is I have changed the way it was packaged before but have now broken it21:13
jenkinsthe new way is loads better btw21:13
jenkinsit works agian now21:18
jenkinsI am getting there21:18
AlanBellin theory the application review board won't look at standalone content or documentation, but that might be a rule that can be tested for flexibilty (not helped much by a certain recent blogpost, however we can but try)21:18
AlanBellonce the package is actually in the repo for Natty It should be possible to update the package post-release21:19
humphreybci *could* just blackmail them21:19
dutchieno you couldn't21:19
godbykwhy don't they allow for standalone documentation?21:20
AlanBellgodbyk: I have absolutely no idea21:20
godbykI'm fairly confident there are already packages that are standalone docs..21:20
humphreybc"put this darned book in the repositories or i'll post something evil about you"21:20
dutchiekeep the workload down?21:20
AlanBellhumphreybc: or you could try "if you put this book in the repos I'll post something nice about you"21:20
humphreybcdidn't think of that :P21:21
AlanBellit might be they don't want packages of movies or songs or pictures or something like that21:21
dutchieit's the carrot and stick approach21:22
godbykin fact, there appear to be a number of such packages.21:22
AlanBellcould be some kind of package that turns up in the iphone store that is lame21:22
dutchiei think i need a go faster stick to poke my maverick upgrade21:25
jenkinsyey clean lithian \0/21:26
jenkinsright now back to double checking again21:26
godbykHere are a few packages that appear to be stand-alone books.  Just in case we need the fodder later:21:36
godbykabs-guide c++-annotations cfi-en derivations diveintopython grokking-the-gimp21:36
godbykhwb png-definitive-guide rubybook rutebook selflinux simplecommeubuntu21:36
godbyk(that's a non-exhaustive list)21:36
godbykBtw, has everyone seen http://ubuntu-guide.org/?21:37
jenkinsinteresting it references the manual in the guide. Whats the point of the guide?21:38
jenkinsits only 5 pages21:38
synergeticso it's basically a quick-start guide, then?21:42
synergetic(sorry, lurking)21:42
jenkinsok fair enough i guess your right synergetic.21:42
jenkinsit does assume that they have ubuntu installed but still21:42
* jenkins goes back to packaging21:42
synergeticyeah. i can understand how some would like a quickstart guide, but if you're savvy enough to follow that quickstart guide, you probably don't need it.21:44
synergeticthose completely new to it would need the full manual, those with more experience could probably make do with a feature list21:45
cassidyjamesHi guys... I'm the original author of the Ubuntu Guide.21:47
cassidyjamesWe're discussing things over on #ubuntu-guide if you care to hop over there.21:47
Andre_Gondimcan anyone check if syntax in pt_BR is ok?22:10
jenkinsI am stuck anyone else done much packaging. I can't understand why I have files ending up in /etc when i want them in /var I have the ccicons.dirs file and the ccicons.install file right as far as I can tell22:12
godbykjenkins: shouldn't all the ccicons files end up in /usr/share/...?22:13
godbykAndre_Gondim: which branch are you working on?22:13
jenkinsopps thats what I ment. sorry trying to think about it too much22:14
Andre_Gondimgodbyk, https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/pt_BR/+translate?show=untranslated22:14
godbykAndre_Gondim: I'll download the .po file and try. It'll take a few minutes for Launchpad to email me the file.22:16
* cassidyjames is away: Busy.22:33
humphreybcmake it quick22:35
humphreybchave class soon22:35
DPicsorry, no rush, can wait until after22:35
DPicwhen's a better time?22:36
humphreybcI'm pretty busy all day, I might be around in about 4 hours22:36
DPici'll try then, if not, tomorrow is fine22:36
DPicthanks, see ya22:36
humphreybcwill be here all day tomorrow I think22:36
jenkinsdpkg-genchanges: error: cannot read files list file: No such file or directory dpkg-buildpackage: error: dpkg-genchanges gave error exit status 2         very helpful22:43
dutchiei'm sure #ubuntu-motu will be happy to help22:43
jenkins#ubuntu-packaging is the correct channel but they have not been answering. I am about to try there now22:45
jenkinsgodbyk: ping23:46
godbykjenkins: pong23:48
jenkinshow do i get latex to pick up the ccicons.sty it is in the right place23:49
jenkinsI should not have tried to re write this but it is better in the long run23:49
godbykif it's just a problem with finding the ccicons.sty file, run texhash against the directory that contains it.23:49
godbykrewrite what?23:49
jenkinsthe ccicons package23:49
* jenkins wishes people would build the manual before uploading23:50
* godbyk agrees completely23:50
MuscovyBuild the manual before uploading?23:52
godbykMuscovy: yes, before committing to the repository.23:53
jenkinswell actually the error turned out to be accicons releated issue. but you should build it to check for latex errors23:53
godbykMuscovy: said differently: don't break the build!23:53
MuscovyGood advice.23:54
jenkinsgodbyk: sudo texhash /usr/share/texmf-texlive/tex/latex/ccicons right?23:54
godbykjenkins: just sudo texhash /usr/share/texmf-texlive/tex should work.23:54
godbyk(it'll check recursively)23:54
jenkinsits not working hang on I have an idea23:55
dutchiejenkins: isn't there a thing to do tex stuff23:55
jenkinsdutchie: there is but for some reason I can't get it to work. I am just trying to check I have everything else correct except for that bit23:56
godbykjenkins: did you do the Mapping thing?23:56
jenkinsthe file is there as well23:57
godbykand copied all the files to where they're supposed to go?23:57
jenkinsit still does not owrk23:57
godbykwhat error do you get?23:57
godbykrun 'kpsewhich ccicons.sty' and it should tell you if it can find the .sty file23:57
jenkinsthe mapping gives uke-jennings@luke-jennings-laptop:~/Projects/ubuntu-manual$ sudo texhash /usr/share/texmf-texlive/tex23:57
jenkinstexhash: Updating /usr/share/texmf-texlive/tex/ls-R...23:57
jenkinstexhash: Done.23:57
godbykthat's good.23:58
godbykkpsewhich should work now then.23:58
jenkinswell running it in the root directory does not work but running in the directory it is in does23:59
jenkinsluke-jennings@luke-jennings-laptop:/usr/share/texmf-texlive/tex/latex/ccicons$ kpsewhich ccicons.sty23:59
jenkinsluke-jennings@luke-jennings-laptop:/usr/share/texmf-texlive/tex/latex/ccicons$ cd /23:59

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!