ovnicrafthi folks, i branch a project from lp i made my changes, commited now i try to pull from lp and tell:00:12
ovnicraftbzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how.00:12
ovnicraftUse the merge command to reconcile them.00:12
maxbIndeed. You don't want to pull, in this case00:17
ovnicraftso pull is not the way to update from lp00:20
ovnicraftmaxb, that is what i want, what i need to do?00:20
maxb"Use the merge command to reconcile them."00:21
maxbbzr merge00:21
ovnicraftmaxb, i dont have write permissions in lp that is not a problem?00:25
wallyworld___bzr 101? - if i have a branch and merge from trunk, can i commit just those changes and not my own as yet uncommitted ones so that bzr status shows just my in progress changes and not everything?00:27
maxbNo. bzr merge will remind you that your working tree has changes when you try to merge00:28
maxbEither commit or shelve your local changes first00:29
maxbOr branch your branch, merge in that, and pull the result back into your first branch00:29
wallyworld___shelving may be the go. i want to keep current with trunk but am not ready to commit my in progress work00:30
wallyworld___seems like a bit of a pain though. is the workflow i am wanting considered "unusual"?00:31
wallyworld___coming from a svn world, it seems normal to do that sort of thing :-)00:32
LeoNerdI use shelve a -lot-00:34
LeoNerdTo the point that when I was still being required to use CVS at one workplace, I wrote myself a  cvs-shelve  command :)00:34
maxbThere's no real workflow difference from svn here00:37
wallyworld___yes, it's a useful feature, especially with good merge support in the VCS. not sure how well it would work with CVS :-)00:37
maxbor, had you not ever committed since branching? In which case, pull, don't merge00:37
wallyworld___no, i had committed.00:38
wallyworld___with svn, you don't have to first shelve before updating from the central server00:38
maxbIn svn if you wanted to merge from trunk whilst having uncommitted changes, you'd need to "shelve" the changes off as a patch file first00:38
wallyworld___so to me there is an extra step with bzr00:38
wallyworld___i've never had to do that with svn - i just update and all the changes from trunk come down and a "status" just shows my uncommitted changes as expected00:40
dashwallyworld___: sure, but this is about merging not updating00:40
dashwallyworld___: merges change your working copy00:40
dash(in both bzr and svn)00:40
maxbwallyworld___: If you were in the same situation in bzr, you would pull, not merge, and you'd get the same result00:41
wallyworld___would you still pull even if you had uncommitted changes? doesn't it complain?00:41
dashit doesn't00:42
dashfor the same reason svn doesn't00:42
wallyworld___ah ok. i thought that it did. sorry.00:42
wallyworld___thanks for the input, much appreciated00:43
spivGood morning.01:02
pooliehi spivvo02:12
spivHi poolie, I just had a bit of a tour of the wonderful world of generating sphinx docs from optparse.  https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~spiv/bzr/html-cmd-help/+merge/3624402:34
mkanatpoolie: I didn't get to loggerhead today, just FYI. Perhaps tomorrow or Thursday. I did start to do some research yesterday, though.03:00
mkanatpoolie: Just wanted to let you know so that I wasn't going dark on anything. :-)03:01
mkanatAnyhow, I'm out for the evening! :-)03:05
mkanatNight. :-)03:05
ovnicrafthi folk i have a question i can versioning my documents with bzr?03:07
spivovnicraft: yep!03:11
ovnicraftspiv, so bzr can show in 'rich text' the diff ?03:12
spivNo, if it's not plain text bzr will just say "binary file changed" for that file in the diff.03:12
ovnicraftspiv, assuming an Ooo doc from writer is a zip bzr knows how works with work?03:12
spivAnd similarly it can't automate merging.03:12
ovnicrafti need something like that03:13
spivSo bzr can happily store the different versions of binary files, but it can't help you compare them.03:13
spiv(Unless someone writes a bzr plugin for that kind of file)03:14
pooliespiv, wow, that specific check for '1.9' is gross03:23
jbowtieHmmm, a bzr plugin for diffing archives would be interesting; especially if you could treat archives as folders.03:32
pooliemeaning ppa archives?03:40
poolieor zips?03:40
jbowtiepoolie: Meaning zips03:49
jbowtieThere are plenty of file formats (including ODF) that are just zips of some files; being able to diff them would be handy.03:51
jbowtieActually, being able to merge them would be even better.03:52
spivThe hook point for merging them already exists.03:52
spivSo it's just a simple matter of writing the plugin then ;)03:53
jbowtieActually I thought it might be more fun to write a plugin to allow merging of GIMP/Photoshop formats.03:53
jbowtieAs long as the changes are on different layers you can actually do a conflict-free merge.03:54
spivHeh, that would be cute.03:55
pooliei don't know how often that happens but it would be cute03:55
jbowtieBut that's just a blue-sky project until I knock the documentation bug count down to zero.03:55
poolieyou know showing conflicts as layers might even kind of work too03:55
pooliejbowtie: thanks so much for all your patches03:55
poolieyou're getting through them at a great rate03:55
spivpoolie: Ooh, layers called THIS, BASE, and OTHER? :)03:55
jbowtieWell, artists are always complaining about not being able to version using a DCVS. But the collaboration workflow actually usually has them touching different subfiles within some massive binary zip.03:57
jbowtiepoolie: It's for my own sanity as well; hate looking something up and having it be wrong.03:57
jbowtieSo being able to support layers or (in the case of Blender, animations versus meshes versus textures) would address some of those artist issues.03:58
jbowtieBut that involves working with the various free software art tools to come up with useful diff/merge/conflict resolution.03:59
spivIt would be a neat project.03:59
spivIt would possibly also encourage us to keep improving our performance when dealing with large files...04:00
pooliespiv did my 'scripts' branch fail?04:01
spivpoolie: text conflict in NEWS...04:02
spivpoolie: but not when I try locally with news_merge enabled04:04
spivSo I guess PQM still doesn't have news_merge working :/04:04
lifelessspiv: probably need to upgrade bzr04:05
spivpoolie: https://pastebin.canonical.com/37408/ is how news_merge was configured on PQM04:05
lifelessspiv: it runs from a source tree04:05
lifelesshysterical raisins04:05
spivlifeless: the RT had step 0 as checking that bzr was already upgraded04:05
lifelessspiv: the one in the source tree?04:05
spivBut yes, there's enough confusing wrinkles in the PQM deployment that this sort of thing never goes smoothly :(04:06
spivlifeless: I don't know, I don't have access to see04:06
spivlifeless: it was RT #41382, if that helps you04:07
pooliespiv, i'll update and repush it04:22
spivpoolie: Hmm04:23
spivpoolie: it's kinda nice to have the test for whether news_merge is working ;)04:23
spivBut not worth holding up your branch unless that's likely to be fixed soon.04:23
spivI'm not sure what to do about it... I don't feel I have enough information to construct an RT to correct whatever is wrong.04:24
spivAnd I assume LOSAs would rather not receive "it doesn't work, please fix" RTs any more than we like them as bug reports :)04:25
spivMaking any changes to the PQM deployment always feels about 10x more frustrating than seems reasonable :/04:26
poolieiirc it's a useful but not critical patch04:26
poolieso, there's no rush04:26
pooliei'm suspecting we might be better off prototyping tarmic04:27
thumperdoes the BZR_EMAIL for committer id need to be "email shaped"?04:27
thumperor can it be any string04:27
spivthumper: andrew@Aihal:/tmp/a-branch$ BZR_EMAIL="any string" bzr ci -m "Foo." --unchanged04:28
spivCommitting to: /tmp/a-branch/04:28
spivCommitted revision 1.04:28
thumperspiv: is there an expectation that it is email shaped?04:28
thumperwill there be a future tightening of the constraint?04:28
thumpercould there be a future tightening/04:28
spivI don't think so.04:29
spivI'm pretty sure there'd already be not-email-shaped commits in the wild04:29
spive.g. imports from CVS04:29
jbowtieJust found out Rob Collins is also from NZ. I wonder how many mutual acquaintances we have?04:54
jbowtieSorry, guys, that was meant for Twitter.04:59
spivjbowtie: that's ok04:59
jbowtieYou say that now, but next time it'll be something far more embarrassing.  :)05:01
jtvjbowtie: at least IRC doesn't spread XSS attacks quite so well05:01
jbowtiejtv: I'm safe until they target Gwibber. Then all my networks are toast.05:02
* jtv gets the butter and prepares to wait05:03
poolieit's funny how much twitter reinvents irc05:07
jbowtieIf I push a fix to a branch that has been proposed for merge, do I need to do anything else for reviewers to take note of the fact?05:08
poolieuh kinda05:09
poolieit shows up on the web page05:09
poolienormally that's enough05:09
spivjbowtie: the diff on the web page will be automatically updated, but the reviewers won't get notified05:09
poolieif you want to specifically ask, you have to mail the mp05:09
spivSo add a comment if you want to to draw attention to the update.05:09
jbowtiespiv: You answered the question before I finished typing it.05:10
spivYou can also resubmit, which starts a fresh review.05:10
spivFor small changes in response to a review so far I'd usually just add a comment.05:11
spowersi'm transitioning my brain from svn to bzr right now.. what's the bzr equivalent of svn postcommit hooks?  i push from my laptop to a server, want the server to execute something when i push to it05:14
spivUgh, my html-cmd-help fix broke test_help05:14
spivspowers: there's a post_change_branch_tip hook in the API05:15
spivUnfortunately you can't just put a command in a configuration file, but you can use it by writing a simple plugin.05:16
spiv(Hmm, ISTR to recall I had an prototype of a plugin that could run a command from a config file when that hook fires, I should dig that up)05:18
spowersit sounds like people have found other ways to solve the same problem?05:18
spowersafter i push to the server, i need to have it kick apache05:20
spivWell, many people just want email notifications, and there's already a plugin for that.05:20
spivFor everyone else... well, as I say, it's not difficult to write a simple plugin.05:21
spowersok, i'll look into that05:21
spowersthere are client side hooks too, right?05:21
spivYes, the exact same ones.05:22
spowersthat's probably all i need.. i have ssh keys set up, so i could just flip a switch via ssh05:23
pooliegood morning vila07:27
vilapoolie: morning poolie !07:27
vilahi all !07:27
vilapoolie: quick chat ?07:31
poolievila, i wonder if a registry is a good fit for this because to me they seem very oriented to looking up a single thing by name09:11
pooliewhereas this is more of a multiple dispatch deal09:11
pooliehowever i agree, we probably want to somehow combine various relevant sources09:11
vilaright, so the idea is that the registry will change the way we get our config objects from calling BranchConfig or GlobalConfig explicitly to calling get_config('branch')09:12
vilafrom there it becomes possible to define what a branch config is or what a tree config is without being forced to create a new class09:12
vilathe idea of multi-level configs is that if one config doesn't define a variable, we fall back to another config09:13
vilathis should scale pretty well for the user once we provide a 'bzr config' command that will tell *where* a variable is currently defined09:14
=== spike_ is now known as spikeWRK
vilaand also *which* config files are involved for a given variable09:14
vilathis file <-> variable relationship may need to better specified too, as currently *some* variables should not be overridden09:15
lifelessI thought we already had multi level configs09:16
lifelessvia a composite pattern09:16
vilalifeless: we have09:16
lifelessgood good09:16
spivThere's also some code in bzr-pqm along those lines, IIRC09:17
vilaI'd like to replace the composite approach by a more generic list based approach where you just say branch.conf > locations.conf > bazaar.conf09:17
spiv--ignore-local needed it for some reason09:18
spivvila: it's been a while, but that sounds rather like the code in bzr-pqm09:18
vilato allow tree.conf > branch.conf > repo.conf > locations.conf > bazaar.conf and allow plugins to put whatever they see fit wherever they see fit09:18
vilabut we need some way to also define that a variable *cannot* be redefined in some cases09:19
spivvila: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr-pqm-devel/bzr-pqm/devel/annotate/head%3A/pqm_submit.py#L19809:19
vilaspiv: exactly, thanks for finding the relevant url so fast !09:20
spivvila: see #L226 for where it is used09:20
vilaso, one example of a variable that we don't want to redefine may be the stacked_on url which is defined server-side (may be not the best example but you get the idea)09:21
spivvila: I'd wanted to get that put into core bzrlib, but lacked a motivation other than "it'd be nice"09:21
spivThere's also some security concerns, in that using an untrusted branch shouldn't be able to e.g. configure bzr, or a bzr plugin, to rm -rf /.09:23
vilaspiv: yeah, exactly, you needed a new class *and* various calls to achieve: get_config('branch')09:23
vilaspiv: right, that should be defined at the *variable* level09:24
spivYes, probably.09:24
vilaspiv: may be not specified for evey variable but what I have in mind is the ability to *declare* a variable in config and use various decorators09:24
spivSounds like a good approach to me.09:25
vilain config or elsewhere, in fact, the discussion with poolie was to make it trivial to turn any constant in the code base into a config variable09:26
spivvila: actually the motivation I did have for maybe putting StackedConfig in core is it possibly would simplify bzrlib/config.py a bit, because the general facility it provides might simplify some hard-coded "this config asks this other config" logic.09:26
vilaadd the '-O' option from the command line and we get the ability to try various tricks09:26
vilaspiv: yup09:27
vilaok, so I'll see what first step I could propose, any thoughts ? A first 'bzr config' showing the variables values and where they are coming from, plus a way to set a new value or delete a variable may be ?09:32
vilaargh reboots needed everywhere, bbiab09:34
spivThe first half of that sounds like a fairly small and worthwhile step, the second half ("plus a way to set...") sounds a bit large, perhaps.09:34
vilawell, no, not yet, but soon09:35
vilaspiv: ok09:35
spivBut try it and find out :)09:35
spiv(That's just a quick reaction, not a deeply considered opinion)09:35
spivHmm, it's getting late.09:35
* spiv -> dinner09:36
vilaspiv: enjoy ! Thanks for feedback09:36
jbowtieBug #636712 says we shouldn't be recommending sftp10:17
ubot5`Launchpad bug 636712 in Bazaar "docs shouldn't recommend sftp (affected: 1, heat: 41)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/63671210:17
Glenjaminisn't sftp recommended because its the most secure way to use a server without setting anything up on the server?10:19
jbowtieThat implies that in the mini-tutorial, we should be telling people to set up a bzr+ssh server.10:19
ddaasftp is not recommended because it is inefficient10:19
Glenjamincompared to what?10:19
ddaabzr+ssh, for example10:19
Glenjaminonly a smart server, which isn't introduction stuff10:19
Glenjaminbzr+ssh needs bazaar on the server, sftp doesnt10:20
ddaaGlenjamin: that's a different issue10:20
ddaaWhich transport is recommended for general use10:20
ddaaand which transport is easiest to setup and secure10:20
Glenjamini quite like bzr+https personally, as the web server has plenty of ways to layer auth10:21
jbowtieWell, we want to make sure people understand that sftp is not the best option.10:21
Glenjamina general transport comparison page would be cool10:21
Glenjaminand then mention the comparison page in the tutorial10:21
ddaaGlenjamin: IMO, that's still significantly harder to set up than bzr+ssh10:21
ddaaalso, I heard it's less efficient10:21
Glenjaminyes it is, but its more flexible imo10:21
ddaabut I don't know why10:21
jbowtieWhich could be reduced to just a note anywhere we mention sftp.10:22
Glenjamini dont trust file ownership with multi-user bzr+ssh, but maybe thats just me10:22
ddaathat's just you10:22
lifelessbzr+ssh will be better than sftp10:22
ddaaif you don't trust operating systems permissions, you have a big problem10:22
jbowtieProbably bad memories of early svn servers.  ;)10:22
lifelesssftp masks out bits needed for multi user managed directories.10:22
lifeless(on the server)10:23
Glenjamini understand them, they just tend to break10:23
Glenjaminsuch as when other people poke around on my servers10:24
jbowtieThe mini-tutorial doesn't explain how to set up a SFTP server, just says "if you have access to one". With bzr+ssh we could look at linking through to the setup instructions.10:25
jbowtieReally, what's the best experience for the complete newbie who wants her own server?10:26
jbowtieLaunchpad is the best option, unless you're setting up a corporate server.10:26
jbowtieWe already have launchpad covered in the mini-tutorial.10:27
Glenjaminand if you're setting up a corporate server, you don't need the short version, you need to know the details10:27
jbowtieI agree - but setting up ssh is easier than setting up http. And sftp is easier still, which is probably why the docs originally went with that.10:28
jbowtieHowever sftp is a bad example because performance will kill you when you go to import your svn server.10:29
jbowtieSo I'm thinking - give bzr+ssh as the main example; with a note about the alternatives (bzr+http and sftp)10:29
jbowtieOf course in the user guides we have all the details anyway, it's just the tutorial examples I'm thinking about.10:30
jbowtieSetup isn't so bad, it's "apt-get install bzr sshd" (or your distro equivalent) on your server then you can push with bzr+ssh.10:31
jbowtiepoolie: You filed the bug, any opinion?10:34
maxbThe big sticking points for corporate servers are access control and organization of many branches10:45
Glenjamini'd say there's plenty of ways to do access control, but i'm not aware of a good entry-point for restricting branch organisation10:47
jbowtiemaxb: I know, I handle Subversion, TFS, and Bazaar servers at my current employer.10:48
Glenjaminwhat method do you use for the bazaar repo / branch permissions?10:48
jbowtieWe use ssh. If branches need different permissions we put them in different locations on disk.10:49
Glenjamineveryone uses their own ssh login, and shared branches are done via groups?10:50
jbowtieWe could also split branches across different servers if needed.10:50
jbowtieCorrect. And I handle merges to trunk.10:50
jbowtieNormally we do feature and bug branches, so there's not too many shared branches, I create those manually.10:51
Glenjaminah, so you set the permissions for the shared branch explicitly10:52
jbowtieSort of, I have directories corresponding to our usual groups and branch into those locations so they inherit permissions.10:53
Glenjamini've got two different repo setups here - both use a wrapper to manage access/permissions and have all branches owned by the same unix user10:54
maxbThis is the major sticking point to corporate bazaar, I think - everyone has to reinvent a variant of this10:54
maxbit's almost as if we need a mini-launchpad :-)10:54
jbowtieIn theory you can set up your own launchpad.10:55
jbowtieI haven't had a machine to play with though.10:55
Glenjamini'm pretty happy with the latest approach i've done: loggerhead proxied through apache and bzr+https via mod_wsgi+apache at the same location10:55
Glenjaminand then I use apache's access controls to limit access (using ldap)10:56
jbowtieThat's pretty much what we do with the Subversion servers, probably would consider it for bzr if admin load increased too much.10:56
maxbjbowtie: Yes, but first you need to invest an awful lot of time in it replacing all the images10:57
jbowtiemaxb: True, but with open source only one person really needs to do that work once.10:59
maxbish, subject to merging ongoing development11:00
Glenjaminwell you could abstract out the branding11:00
Glenjaminand get it back upstream11:00
millunbzr fails to install on debian lenny (from backporst)11:00
millunpycentral: pycentral pkginstall: error byte-compiling files (735)11:02
millunmaybe it needs python 2.6?11:03
jbowtiemillun: I'm having a quick look now to see if there's anything obvious11:03
millunpython on lenny is 2.5. my localhost py is 2.611:04
jbowtiemillun: Do you have multiple versions of Python installed on that machine?11:08
millunmaybe not11:08
milluni'll check11:08
Glenjaminis there a way to get a more verbose error? that one's a bit vague (i'm not too familiar with dpkg)11:09
vilamillun: <shudder> we are currently releasing 2.0.*6* would you mind trying to push the upgrade on the debian side ? I don't know whether this will address your immediate problem but at least you'll get the fixes done since 2.0.311:09
millunoh ok. i'll ask the guy who decides11:10
vilamillun: and I should have said: we are leasing 2.0.6, 2.1.3, 2.2.1 and 2.3b1 the first three being stable releases11:10
vilamillun: I don't want to make your life harder (quite the contrary) but it's a bit deceiving to use a packaged distro if you can't get the last available stable updates :-/11:11
vilafullermd: Quick FreeBSD question, I do regular 'updports.sh ;  portupgrade -a' (as in once every full moon) and there is a number of patches mentioned there. ~2400 seems.. hard to relate to the number of packages updated, is "patch" here referring to a CVS commit ? What's the level of detail ?11:14
jbowtievila: packages.debian.org shows 2.0.3 in lenny-backports; maybe we should bounce a reminder to their maintainer team?11:14
vilajbowtie: yeah, I did that, but no response so far11:14
vilajbowtie: but may be I didn't ping the right ones ? What will *you* do ?11:15
vilajbowtie: or rather, if you know what to do, please do :-) And put me in the CC :-)11:16
jbowtievila: I'm looking at their mail archive right now to see what's been going on.11:16
vilaI'm not familiar enough with debian to know whether they are still interested with our 2.0 updates or not...11:16
vilajbowtie: great11:17
jbowtievila: Sure, consider it an audition for my BSE application.  :P11:17
vilajbowtie: err, which one ? url ?11:17
vilajbowtie: hehe, couln't hurt, but I'm not the one taking the decision here ;-)11:17
vilaright, so my mail should be there11:17
jbowtieI see it, they apparently have no spam filter on that list though, judging from the state of the archive.11:19
maxbbackports.org is not technically an official Debian service yet.11:21
maxbAlso, it's a backports service, so if anything, they might as well update it to 2.2.111:21
vilamaxb: who should decide, or better, act here ?11:22
jbowtievila: Looks like jelmer is probably the best person to talk to, he's listed as a maintainer and is active on their list.11:23
vilajbowtie: hehe, yeah, jelmer is great, but looks a bit overbooked, so who is the backup there ? ;-D11:23
maxbvila: Anyone who wants to volunteer their time. Non DD/DMs need to act through the Debian mentors. Reminding the person who last uploaded the package to lenny-backports is a good idea11:25
maxb<maxb> backports.org is not technically an official Debian service yet.11:25
maxbOoops, now it is!11:25
vilamaxb: ok, DM == Debian Mentors, are you one ? I really need to start somewhere...11:26
maxbAlso, packages are supposed to hit testing before being considered for backports, so at the moment, it's 2.1.2 that's eligible11:26
maxbDM == Debian Maintainers11:26
maxbNo, I have no Debian official affiliation at present11:27
vilagah, so who are the mentors ? Any DD or DM ?11:27
maxbThough one of these days I ought to re-investigate my potential for DM and/or MOTU11:27
vilamaxb: so, re-reading http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=bzr , you mean 2.1.2 can go from testing to backports ?11:28
vilamaxb: can 2.2.0 go from unstable to testing ?11:28
maxbNo, the freeze is on11:29
maxb2.1.2 can go to backports if someone does stuff according to http://backports.debian.org/Contribute/11:29
vilafreeze for (sorry for the idiotic questions but as I said I ahve to start somewhere :-})11:29
maxbpre-release freeze for squeeze11:29
vilamaxb: which means it will become stable ?11:30
jbowtievila: I'll fire off some emails to the lists in about 10 hours to see if there are any DD's hanging around, maybe we can get jelmer to give us some names.11:30
vilajbowtie: ok11:30
vilajbowtie: thanks11:30
vilamaxb: let see, where can 2.0.6 go (in debian context) ? Nowhere ?11:31
vila2.1.2 goes to backports11:32
vila2.2.1 to unstable ?11:33
vilaor should we just target 2.2.1 to backports ?11:33
vilamaxb: quite different than Ubuntu where we want 2.0.6, 2.1.3 and 2.2.1 deployed and 2.2.1 and 2.3b1 in the ppas right ?11:34
vilaor may be not that much, debian being closer to what we do for ppas ?11:35
maxbThe key difference is that Ubuntu has an -updates pocket11:35
jbowtievila: I'll also email the debian-backports list to see if anyone wants to help sort this specific issue.11:36
mgzhi all.11:36
maxbvila: Debian has its own concept of updates, but they're limited to security and dire emergencies11:37
vilamgz: _o/11:37
vilajbowtie: good idea11:37
vilamaxb: how do we apply that to our releases then ?11:40
maxbWe put the latest stable into Debian unstable, except when there's a freeze on. We consider helping update stable-backports from testing.11:42
vilawow http://backports.debian.org/Contribute/ seems a bit intimidating at first... I may to filter a bit about what we already do in bzr11:42
vilamaxb: ok, so 2.2.1 -> unstable except not, 2.1.2 to backports then right ?11:43
vilaand then... 2.2.x to unstable after the freeze or 2.3.x depending on when it occurs11:45
vilain summary we push only two of our series and help our older stable releases to progress in backports unless some serious bug is considered for... testing ?11:47
millunthanks guys, upgrade resolved the issue12:04
milluni forgot if i should do checkout or branch12:08
Glenjamindepends what you're getting12:09
jbowtiemillun: Checkout creates a bound branch (commit has to succeed at server before it is applied locally)12:09
Glenjaminif you want a copy of a remote branch that's easy to update, i'd use checkout12:10
Glenjaminif you're going to make local changes, then branch12:10
jbowtiemillun: Branch creates an unbound branch (commits are local, use push and pull to interact with server)12:10
milluni have a php project, i want to run it on a dev server12:11
millunsome minor changes in config files will occur12:12
Glenjaminconfig files which change should be outside of version control, if generally use checkout for a deployment12:12
milluni know i was using bzr pull command12:13
jbowtiemillun: If you were using pull, then you would have used branch instead of checkout.12:13
millundid checkout now12:13
millunshould be goo12:13
millunso now i will be using bzr update or like?12:14
jbowtieCorrect, or you can use bzr unbind and then use bzr pull.12:14
jbowtieRight, I'm off, time for bed in my time zone.12:15
cbzwhen using bzr-svn with an existing maven'ised svn project is there something i can use in the scm section of the pom.xml file so that bzr tools will be launched locally instead of svn tools?13:23
maxbI don't think so13:29
vilamillun: when you say " upgrade resolved the issue" which version do you use now ?13:33
ploumI'm looking for a way to store the current revision number in a file13:49
ploumThe file itself has to be commited with that revision13:50
ploumHow can I achieve that ?13:50
maxbThat feels wrong13:50
ploumI want the revision number to be available in any export of the branch, why does it feel wrong ?13:51
spivTo be pedantic, that's a different requirement to wanting the committed text to have the revision number :)13:52
* spiv -> bed13:52
vilaploum: because a revision content should be fully known before giving it a revision-id13:52
vilaploum: may be you're searching for 'bzr version-info' instead13:52
maxbvila: Well, actually, you can know the revno that a revision you're about to commit will get, so it's doable :-)13:53
ploumvila: I'm already using version-info13:53
vilamaxb: I went for the simplest explanation, there is still a chiken and egg problem there13:53
maxbI think a better solution would be a trivial script that wraps bzr export and bzr revno13:53
maxbvila: I agree it's not a very nice option, but I don't see any chicken/egg problem involved.13:54
ploummaxb: how can I achieve that other than a "current+1" ?  (that I don't want to avoid doing +1 when the commit fail (because it is empty)13:54
vilaploum: then what are you trying to achieve exactly ?13:54
ploumsorry, this is not related to export, (I'm confused by another problem)13:55
maxbcurrent+1 is the only way you can predict the revno of a future revision13:55
maxbBut, I second vila, what are you trying to achieve exactly ?13:55
ploumvila: I'm working in a very large SVN tree including multiple module. As I work only on a small part (one module), I use bzr-svn to work on that very small part.  People working with the whole tree want to know exactly what is the "internal revision" of my module.13:56
ploumBzr keep its own revno so it's fine13:57
ploumfor example, my revno 5 is the rev 134 of the SVN13:57
ploumand I want to have a file, in that tree, that contains that internal revno13:57
ploumI currently write bzr revno13:58
ploummaybe simply revno+1 could be enough ?13:58
vilaha, so you'd like people pulling from your branch (even indirectly) to get what your consider to be the revno, but it doesn't have to be the bzr revno, just an incremented value (for appropriate values of incrmented) right ?13:58
vilathe problem with 'bzr revno[+1]' is that it would be wrong if you uncommit for example13:59
ploumvila: more or less. I want it to be the bzr value so when they ask something, I can quickly revert to that number13:59
ploumvila: indeed13:59
maxbWould it actually be wrong if you uncommit?14:00
maxbI don't think it would14:00
vilanothing robust comes to mind :-/ You really want nested tree here (once more)14:01
vilamaxb: it won't be "wrong" but you can end up with the same revno and different content, if people have already pulled... you lose14:01
maxbvila: Can you see anything wrong with a pre_commit hook which writes the revno + 1 to a file?14:01
vilaexcept for not being reliable in case of uncommit, no14:01
maxbOh, yes. But that's true of any pushed uncommit. So don't do that :-)14:02
vilaso I think an alternative would be a pre-commit hook which increments the value there while you still retain control over it14:02
vilaso it's *always* incremented (and address uncommits) but you can still tweak it when needed14:03
vilaof course the drawback is that it can go out-of-sync with bzr revno, but with a bit of care you should be able to resync14:03
vilai.e. start with revno+1 before the next commit and in the worst case... decrement if you're sure you haven't push or something14:04
maxbhmm, pre_commit docs say lots of things about not being allowed to modify the about-to-be-committed tree14:05
vilaalso, revno can drastically change if you re-pull from trunk instead of merging, using revnos as a communication mean require some enforced workflow of the shared trunk14:06
vilameh, maxb is right, I'm confused, I thought we had one hook for that...14:09
maxbpre_pre_commit? :-)14:09
maxboh, wait, MutableTreeHooks.start_commit14:10
vilaexactly, pre_commit should reference it14:11
Glenjamindoes it necessarily have to be stored as a file14:12
Glenjaminbzr revno svn://path would tell you the number, if they dont have svn it might be simpler to give them a way to get that info14:13
Glenjamin*if they dont have bzr14:13
vilaGlenjamin: good point, relying on the VCS tool is generally more robust14:14
vilaploum: ^ can this address your problem ? You should be able to match the svn revno to the bzr one no ?14:14
Glenjaminneither revno nor version-info take the -r option14:15
Glenjaminso probably can't map an arbitrary svn revno to a bzr one in this way14:16
vilano, but I think bzr-svn manage to display the svn revno somewhere (no direct experience sry)14:16
Glenjaminit displays it in the bzr log14:17
Glenjaminand provides a revision specifier prefix svn:14:17
vilaso if someone mentions an svn revno, ploum can find the bzr correspoding one, ha, svn: even better :)14:17
Glenjaminyes, but bzr revno -rsvn:149 won't work14:17
Glenjaminlog might14:18
vilait sure must :)14:18
Glenjaminit does in fact14:18
Glenjaminas i've just tried it14:18
vilaploum: does the above address your "People working with the whole tree want to know exactly what is the "internal revision" of my module" ?14:21
vilaor not at all ?14:21
maxbhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/498470/ works. Until you try to run "bzr commit <some pathnames>", at which point it of course does not commit your flag file14:25
ploumvila: not really14:43
ploumI think that I will go with the revno+1 approach14:43
ploumas we will probably not uncommit14:44
ploumthanks a lot for the brainstorm :-)14:45
millunvila: 2.0.3 i believe14:48
vilamillun: 'bzr version' could turn your beliefs into  facts :-D14:49
fullermdvila: I believe 'patch' in that sense is one change to one port.  So it's sorta a proxy for CVS commits, though a commit could touch multiple ports.  (or I could be wrong; I never delved into portsnap internals)15:00
fullermdI'd expect a pretty vague relation to the number of things you update.  For one, multiple changes to a port since your last update would be multiple packages.  But more importantly, you don't have most ports installed   :p15:02
vilafullermd: what I was after was some rough estimate of the a threshold above which I should start to worrying15:02
vilabut yeah, since it's a reduced setup it could be hard for you :-/15:03
vilawhat is your update frequency and how many patches do you see then ? (On average)15:03
fullermdAccording to INDEX, there are 22,138 in the tree as of my last update.  I have 841 installed on my workstation; you surely have less.15:03
vilaINDEX is a file ? path ?15:04
vilaINDEX-8 in /usr/ports/ ?15:04
fullermdOh, I dunno.  Depending on the system, somewhere between a couple times a week and a couple times a month maybe.15:04
fullermdNumber of patches varies a lot.  There was an autoconf update recently; sweeping stuff like that, or gettext updates, tend to touch a huge number of files all at once.15:05
vilahmm, I'm climbing the wrong tree it seems :)15:05
vilabah, nvm15:07
fullermdI've seen updates like 10k patches, on stuff I let get real outdated   ;)15:07
vilaoh, so I'm not so bad with 2400 then15:08
vilaIt's a bit hard to remember when everything went well ;)15:08
fullermdYeah, it's not surprising at all if there were one or two sizable things in it.15:09
vilaI just had a doubt this morning when I saw 2400 and went... is this really expected...15:09
fullermdautoconf update was in the last week.  There was a KDE update a couple weeks ago.  Both of those touched a big ol' pile of stuff.15:09
fullermdEither of those could easily be a couple hundred each, I'd WAG.15:10
vilaright, so autoconf should be in but not kde, as long as I can run emacs with a remote X, I'm happy. So I never tried to setup a desktop manager there :-P15:11
fullermdWell, you'd still have all the patches to update the ports.15:11
vilaooh, I see15:12
vilaok, even less representative for my case then15:12
fullermdYou'd just save the 6 weeks of build time to recompile it all  ;)15:12
fullermdYeah, the 'patches' count is a proxy for "number of changes to any ports since your last update"; that's probably only vaguely proportional to "number of things I've installed that now need updating"15:13
vilayeah, but those packaging stuff is eating my disk space ! I knew it, I knew it15:13
fullermdNom nom nom!15:13
mgzvila, what rev did you branch 2.3b1 off?15:18
vilamgz: I've mentioned it in some mail I think, let me check15:18
vila5432 revid:pqm@pqm.ubuntu.com-20100917142727-49blehg006i4nc9n15:19
mgzthanks, so that's just got this fix.15:21
mgzurk, but I now can't set the milestone correctly...15:22
vilabug # ?15:22
mgzvila, is there any way of marking bug 576269 as fixed in 2.3b1 now?15:23
ubot5`Launchpad bug 576269 in Bazaar "verbose mode in selftest show "running 0 tests" (affected: 2, heat: 12)" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/57626915:23
mgz(it's not really that important, but I'm curious)15:23
vilamgz: yes, making the 2.3b1 milestone active, marking the bug, making the milestone inactive again15:23
vilamgz: https://edge.launchpad.net/bzr/2.3/2.3b1 do you see pen icon near change details there ?15:23
vilano NEWS entry for it right ?15:25
vilamgz: ok, that's why I missed it15:25
mgzon the pen, that is.15:25
mgzand probably no on the news as well, I was changing a bunch of testing things and getting news conflicts on pqm for every merge15:25
vilathen you don't have enough rights to activate a milestone15:25
vilaI can leave the milestone active if you think there are other bugs like this one15:26
vilabut we try to keep the list of active milestones minimal to make it easier to use15:26
mgzno, I just pushed that literally as I was leaving the house on Friday and am only now getting back to updating the bug tracker15:27
vilathough, until the release is officially announced, I may as well leave it active15:27
mgzso mark it inactive again.15:27
vilano other bugs ?15:27
mgznothing else landed in that window, no.15:27
vilaanyway, if you need it again, you know where to ask :)15:27
Glenjaminguys, is the general idea to move towards pycurl or away from it (in bzr)?15:28
mgzyeah, thanks for the walkthrough vila.15:28
vilaGlenjamin: away15:28
Glenjaminis there a list of bugs blocking this somewhere?15:28
Glenjamini keep hitting issues due to bzr on ubuntu using pycurl =/15:28
vilaroughly we need to implement ssl cert verification into our urllib-based implementation15:28
vilawhat kind of issues ?15:29
Glenjaminbzr: ERROR: Generic bzr smart protocol error: Invalid http response for https://<host>/servers/auth/.bzr/smart: Unknown response code 40115:29
vilawut ?15:29
vila401 is an authentication error... I thought the invalid cert was different... .bzr.log says more ?15:30
Glenjaminhttps with http auth using pycurl doesn't prompt for credentials15:30
vilaha ! right, yeah15:31
vilaGlenjamin: do you care about the certs being verified ?15:31
Glenjaminnope, i've just installed that default urllib plugin you did15:31
vilaGlenjamin: and is it a problem just for you or do you need to address it for a wide range of people ?15:32
vilaGlenjamin: ha, right, sorry, didn't connect the dots :D15:32
Glenjaminits a problem i need to address globally, but i'm ghosting the machines15:32
vilaso, yes, we want to go away and only retain pycurl so far for 1) people that needs cert verification 2) some support for auth protocols that may not be supported in our urllib implementation15:33
vilamy vagueness on the later indicates that it's less important than the former15:33
fullermdWell, either that of you're just vague   ;)15:37
jszakmeisterAs I'm writing up some notes, I actually sat down to look at the difference between "bzr checkout" and "bzr branch --bind".15:49
jszakmeisterThe only difference I found that was branch sets the parent location, while checkout does not.15:50
jammgz: if you could forward my message back to the tracker. I responded before I remember LP will reject any emails I send it, and I don't really feel like rewriting it.15:50
jszakmeisterAny reason why checkout doesn't set the parent location?15:50
Glenjaminbzr branch --bind == bzr branch && bzr bind :parent15:50
mgzI shall jam.15:50
Glenjaminwould be my assumption.15:50
mgzis there any progress on the bug that's eating your email?15:50
ddaajszakmeister: because the branch parent is a useful default for "merge" and "pull"15:51
* fullermd rallys himself for another checkout discussion..15:51
ddaatypically, you'd make a checkout of a feature branch in centralized development process15:51
ddaaand you'd want "bzr merge" to merge from "trunk"15:51
Glenjaminthen what's bzr branch --bind for?15:52
ddaawhereas, by using "bzr branch --bind", you indicate that you are working in a decentralized workflow, and you want to start with your branch bound.15:52
jszakmeisterddaa: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there.  If the parent location isn't set, the you have to specify what you're merging from, right?15:53
fullermdA checkout has a parent location.  It's on the branch.15:53
ddaaGlenjamin: it's a shortcut for branch + bind.15:53
Glenjaminyes, i get that - but why?15:54
jszakmeisterfullermd: but not locally.  Note: I'm not talking about lightweight checkouts... which is another topic all together.15:54
fullermdIt shouldn't be.15:54
ddaaGlenjamin: because bound branches are branches that do "push" automatically for you.15:54
Glenjaminso you're saying that conceptually a bound branch is in some way different from a checkout?15:54
ddaaThere are really two ways to look at bound branches.15:55
jszakmeister...man, I didn't mean to start any fires. :-)15:55
ddaaOne way is to think of them as "lightweight checkout with a local cache, and the ability to do the occasional local commit when working offline"15:55
ddaaThe other way is to think of them as "branch that pushes automatically whenever you commit"15:56
ddaa(or pull)15:56
jszakmeisterddaa: doesn't it work the same under the hood?  Certainly, from a branch perspective, the contents of .bzr/branch are the same...15:56
ddaajszakmeister: yes, it does work the same.15:56
jszakmeisterwith the exception that branch sets the parent and checkout doesn't.15:56
ddaait's only a matter of how you want to think about your branch.15:57
Glenjaminbasically, i don't get why you'd ever do branch --bind15:57
Glenjaminit sets parent, which is used for pull and merge - but in this case update will do the same15:57
ddaaGlenjamin: because you're too lazy to remember to "bzr push"15:57
Glenjaminbut why use branch --bind instead of checkout15:58
fullermdBecause hopefully some day, that giant pile of bugs will be fixed...15:58
ddaafullermd: you say they should behave the same?15:58
ddaaI see a useful semantic distinction.15:59
fullermdQuite the contrary.15:59
ddaafullermd: then you say there should be additional differences between checkouts and bound branches?15:59
fullermdI say we should _have_ heavy checkouts, and bound branches, rather than neither masquerading as both.15:59
jammgz: no progress yet. Martin mentioned that they recently started checking timestamps to help avoid replay attacks.15:59
ddaaand how would they further differ?15:59
Glenjaminwhat would be the difference? ^^16:00
jamhowever, the timestamps look good to me...16:00
dashi still find that page incoherent16:00
jszakmeisterfullermd: is the distinction that a checkout modifies the remote branch, rather than committing locally and pushing?16:01
ddaadash: I think the "Consequences and Changes to Current UI" section makes sense16:01
fullermdNo, the fundamental distinction is that for a checkout there IS only one branch.  You can't modify a local branch, because there conceptually isn't one.16:02
ddaaI WAS burnt in the past by doing "update" in a bound branch, wanting to update the tree to the branch, not pull the master.16:02
Glenjaminwhat benefits would that bring?16:02
jszakmeisterfullermd: I think that's what I was trying to say... you modify the remote side (the target of the checkout) directly.  It's not really a branch locally.16:03
fullermdYah.  It distinguishes the use-cases of "I want to work on that branch" from "I want to automate keeping these branches in sync"16:03
ddaaGlenjamin: it's not really a discussion about "benefits", but about "clear concepts"16:03
Glenjaminmy point is, what would be gained by separating the concepts. And I can't think of anything16:04
fullermdThe benefits (on the co side; fixing that 'update' bug on the bound branch side would be bigger) are relatively small; a big part of them is just fixing all the misbehaviors of heavy vs. light checkouts that are caused by acting boudnish, like handling of branch config.16:05
ddaaGlenjamin: among other things, a meaningful answer to "what's the different between checkout and branch --bind"16:05
ddaaGlenjamin: also, the ability to update the tree of a bound branch without actually pulling from the master.16:06
GlenjaminMy workflow involves heavy checkouts for pretty much everything, so I guess I haven't run into these issues16:06
jszakmeisterOne thing I found surprising is that in my environment "bzr branch --bind" works fine using http:// against a smart server...16:06
jszakmeistercheckout fails.16:06
jszakmeisterI always have to use "bzr+http://" to make checkout work.16:06
Glenjaminyou mean http dumb server?16:06
Glenjaminoh right, autodetect16:06
fullermdAs does mine.  I've never had any use for bound branches, but I'm all about checkouts.  But certainly some people are just the opposite way aroudn.16:06
Glenjaminwhen I make a new branch, i update local trunk, branch local trunk, push to central, bind to push16:07
Glenjaminpresumably if checkouts != bound branches, i'd have to do something differently16:07
ddaafullermd: actually, the update misbehavior can occur when you have lightweight checkout of a bound branch.16:07
Glenjaminwhat's this update misbehaviour by the way?16:08
mgzokay jam, I've replied to both the mails I got from you so they'll be in the mp record.16:08
ddaaupdate on a bound branch is equivalent to update + pull.16:08
ddaa(modulo conflicts)16:08
ddaalet me rephrase that16:09
ddaaupdate on a lightweight checkout of a bound branch, is equivalent to "pull" in the branch then "update" in the lightweight checkout.16:09
ddaaWhich is surprising.16:09
jammgz: well the second one I went straight to the website. I've also been attempting to set my local time differently, etc.16:10
jammgz: btw, can you check the gpg --verify output from the original email?16:10
ddaaIt should just do "update" in the lightweight checkout.16:10
jamKnowing the timestamp it thinks  is present, etc, would be helpful16:10
ddaaAnd a lightweight checkout of a checkout should not be allowed.16:10
jamI know what is says *here* but I'd like a second opinion16:10
GlenjaminI see16:10
ddaaBut this discussion is somewhat of a nitpick.16:11
fullermdMore abstractly, "update is a command that writes to the working tree based on reading the branch.  Oh, except in this other magic case where it writes the branch based on a different branch"16:11
mgzjam: you'd also sent one about 2.3-filter-tests16:11
mgzI'll check with gpg now.16:11
jamah rgiht16:11
fullermdModel-breaking mental page faults FTL  :(16:12
jszakmeisterIs there any movement on changing things?16:14
fullermdNot AFAIK.  It's not entirely uncontroversial.16:16
ddaawell, it does sound like an arbitrary restriction16:16
ddaaand there WILL be a reconfigure option to switch between bound branches and checkouts16:17
ddaaso it will be possible to break the model16:17
jszakmeisterWell, I like the idea of checkouts... at least in the sense that they update the remote branch rather than push revision after committing locally.16:18
mgzjam: reckons that's a good sig here16:18
ddaafullermd: I think that would be a good thing, because it would make for easier documentation.16:18
jszakmeisterI'm still not sure what happens when two people try to commit at the same time...16:18
jammgz: the sig is good, can you give me the time that it thinks it was at?16:18
ddaaon of them will have an error "out of date"16:19
fullermdWell, so do I.  That's why I keep griping about it   8-}16:19
mgzgpg: Signature made 09/22/10 15:26:02 using DSA key ID 848D000316:19
mgzgpg: Good signature from "John A Meinel <john@arbash-meinel.com>"16:19
jszakmeisterI guess it all works out in the end (whoever loses, the commit gets uncommitted)16:19
mgzI'm on BST (+1)16:19
Glenjamindont bound branches grab a write lock before comitting locally?16:19
mgzthis is the 2.3-filter-tests message. which has the header:16:20
mgzDate: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:26:02 -050016:20
Glenjaminor at least exhibit equivalent behaviour16:20
jammgz: that certainly sounds like it matches mine, which is 09:26 CDT (-5)16:20
ddaaGlenjamin: "out of date" or "lock taken", anyway.16:20
fullermdYes, which I think is another bit of conflation fallout (at least, it's made "easier" by the conflation)16:20
ddaaGlenjamin: the contract is that only one commit will succeed.16:20
ddaaThe other will fail atomically.16:21
ddaabzr use a two-step commit in this case, it won't update the local branch until the remote branch was sucessfully committed to.16:22
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch
jszakmeisterIs there a plugin that provides the equivalent of graphlog in Mercurial?17:43
jszakmeisterGoogle didn't turn up anything.17:43
Glenjamingot a screenshot?17:47
Glenjaminah, i see17:47
Glenjaminjszakmeister: qlog does that graphically, not sure about on the command line17:47
jszakmeisterOh, I'm familiar qith QBzr and friends. :-)17:48
jszakmeisterI was looking for something textual though.17:48
fullermdYou use bzr-hg, push into a mercurial repo, and...17:49
fullermdOr push into mtn; it draws those things by default.17:50
fullermdWish it wouldn't, thought; for anything not trivial and tiny, it's just wasted space.17:50
jszakmeisterWow.  I haven't played with monotone in a while.17:51
jszakmeisterYeah, that's one of those things that's occasionally useful... I wouldn't want it all the time either.17:51
mgzGary's done the hard bit for qlog tests anyway, you might be able to persuade him to pull some of that out into a plugin17:52
jszakmeistermgz: that's a good idea17:53
=== beuno is now known as beuno-lunch
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jasonlifeI created a branch and updated a file, and tried to merge this new branch in trunk, but merge doesn't work..  any way to investigate this problem?19:07
dashwhat kind of doesn't work?19:09
jasonlifemerging don't work..19:09
dashyes. how doesn't it work?19:09
jasonlifethe file I updated in branch doesn't applied to the same file in master..19:10
dashwhat does it do instead?19:10
jasonlifeI ran "bzr merge ../test-branch" , and got bzr: ERROR: [Errno 5] Input/output error19:11
jasonlifeI normally get this error without any problems for other bzr commands though..19:12
dashjasonlife: yikes!19:12
* fullermd is a little creeped out by "normally" and "get this error".19:12
dashwhat OS are you using? what filesystem?19:12
jasonlifehang on..19:12
jasonlifefedora 1019:13
dashyeah um, sounds like you've got some nfs issues19:14
jasonlifeI see..19:14
jasonlifeIs it known issue?19:14
jasonlifeany way to fix? or investigate?19:15
jasonlifeAre there other ways to merge between branches?19:16
dashwhat version of bzr are you using?19:16
=== khmarbaise_ is now known as khmarbaise
jasonlifeBazaar (bzr) 2.1.019:17
dashjasonlife: this may be relevant: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/9883619:17
ubot5`Launchpad bug 98836 in Bazaar "[MASTER] "OS locks must die" - dirstate file write locks exclude readers and limit portability (affected: 12, heat: 156)" [High,Confirmed]19:17
dashoh, this is the specific one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/13738719:18
ubot5`Launchpad bug 137387 in Bazaar "close or truncate of os-locked file gives EIO on some NFSv4 servers (dup-of: 98836)" [Low,Incomplete]19:18
ubot5`Launchpad bug 98836 in Bazaar "[MASTER] "OS locks must die" - dirstate file write locks exclude readers and limit portability (affected: 12, heat: 156)" [High,Confirmed]19:18
jasonlifeit seems the issue with ntfs hasn't been resolved yet..19:42
jasonlifeIs there any other way to merge between branches  ?19:43
jasonlifesorry,,,  ntfs/nfs19:45
jasonlife s/ntfs/nfs19:45
jamjasonlife: use a local checkout anywhere on your filesystem that isn't nfs, the branches can stay where they are19:56
jasonlifei see.. thanks jam19:57
=== Meths_ is now known as Meths
jeremywIs there an API for telling if a directory is a bzr branch or not?21:42
jszakmeisterjeremyw: not as far as I know.  I think you just have to try opening the directory and seeing if you get NotBranchError.21:46
jszakmeistervia Branch.open(), that is.21:47
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
thumperjam: around?22:58
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
dOxxxGood evening.23:26
dOxxxDowngrading pyqt is a pain in the ass. Riverbank Computing doesn't keep old versions in their downloads.23:55
pooliehello doxx23:59

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