[00:49] <Pendulum> maco: are you on ubuntu-accessibility?
[00:49] <maco> ml? no
[00:49] <maco> chan...obviously
[00:49] <Pendulum> someone just posted to the ml asking about kubuntu accessibility
[01:31] <maco> oh uhhh....nonexistent?
[01:32] <maco> i mean, we have an onscreen keyboard, but not for kdm til 10.10
[01:32] <maco> annd qt... expects there to be a system-wide a11y framework. which linux doesnt have. so it fails for screenreaders
[01:33] <Pendulum> is there a screen magnifier?
[01:35] <maco> umm....lets see a11y settings have a visual bell and a bunch of stuff about how the keyboard should work...
[01:37] <maco> there's 2 colour schemes available by default for dark background with light text and you can adjust font sizes to huge for folks who need the high contrast
[01:37] <maco> (of course, theyd need someone /else/ to set that up)
[01:38] <maco> yes, kmag is installed by default
[01:38] <maco> its recommended by the kubuntu-desktop package
[01:41] <maco> omfg this is confusing
[01:42] <maco> things are displayed in 3 different zoom levels at once O_O
[01:44] <maco> less confusing if i unmaximise it... it has to be on top and if its maximised...yeah.... dont need a zoom of the zoom
[01:55] <JanC> maco: Qt4 supposedly supports AT-SPI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_Provider_Interface ?
[01:55] <JanC> as does Gtk, Java, Mozilla, OOo, ...
[01:56] <maco> i dont think theres any way to enable it in a kde env though
[02:00] <JanC> in any case, there is a system-wide a11y API
[02:00] <JanC> I think it was designed by Sun originally
[02:00] <maco> mmk. i thought at-spi was a gnome thing and hadnt gone fd.o-way yet
[02:01] <JanC> well, Gtk, Java, Mozilla & OOo originally, Qt4 added support around 2005...
[02:05] <JanC> or at least Trolltech announced it then  ;)
[02:06] <JanC> http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.0/qt4-accessibility.html sounds like they did implement it
[02:07] <JanC> the reason why it was first implemented in Gtk/GNOME, Java, OOo & Mozilla is probably that Sun paid for it...
[02:08] <JanC> as they needed it for some US government contracts
[02:12] <Pendulum> I know Sun was one of the big funders for Gnome Accessibility (until last winter, of course)
[02:15] <JanC> yeah  :-(
[02:15] <JanC> stupid Oracle
[02:16] <JanC> maybe people should sue them for that, as that seems their favourite way of talking to others  ;)
[17:27] <charlie-tca> Good Morning
[17:27] <charlie-tca> since I am not spread thin enough yet, are we doing an accessibility session for UbuntuOpenWeek ?
[17:28] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[17:30] <Pendulum> I'd love it if we could, however, I am out of town for a doctor's appointment most of that week
[17:30] <Pendulum> and I know TheMuso doesn't usually do things like open week because it's middle of the night for him
[17:31] <charlie-tca> I could do one, what do we want to have ?
[17:32]  * charlie-tca keeps in mind he will also be doing a Xubuntu session, as project lead and QA
[17:32] <Pendulum> hmm... good question
[17:32] <Pendulum> heh
[17:33] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: btw, would you be at all interested (if it's okay with TheMuso ) in helping nigelb run a community-based accessibility session at UDS?
[17:33] <charlie-tca> sure
[17:33] <Pendulum> I didn't get sponsorship so I can't do it, but I'd like there to be *something*
[17:33] <charlie-tca> I got sponsorship, so I can do it
[17:33] <Pendulum> (I'll be there remotely for it, but you can't lead remotely)
[17:33] <Pendulum> cool :)
[17:33] <Pendulum> then I'll set up the blueprint and submit it
[17:33] <charlie-tca> great!
[19:23] <maco> i was just saying "jee theres no a11y blueprint yet"
[19:24] <Pendulum> maco: yeah, between my accident and now the fact that I need to check with jcastro about if I need to specify charlie-tca and nigelb anywhere on the blueprint
[19:27] <maco> do we know any europeans or aussies with knowledge of their country's sign yet?
[19:28] <Pendulum> not that I know of
[19:28] <Pendulum> you should join the ubuntu-accessibility ML and ask :P
[19:28] <maco> id specify one of them on "assignee" btw
[19:29] <Pendulum> yeah
[19:29] <Pendulum> I just want to make sure that I don't need to assign one as the drafter, too
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Put me down
[21:02] <charlie-tca> So, for openweek, general accessibility in Ubuntu? What's available, what's we want to see; questions and answers?
[21:13] <charlie-tca> Accessibiltiy is Important - session on2010-10-13; 14:00 UTC; Charlie Kravetz
[21:14] <maco> "why does ubuntu use so much webkit while knowing its inaccessible?"
[21:14] <mgdm> what's up with webkit?
[21:14] <mgdm> (sorry - not been paying attention)
[21:14] <maco> doesnt work with screenreaders
[21:14] <mgdm> Ah
[21:15] <maco> but the software center and part of the installer use it
[21:53] <JanC> I assume they use it because mozilla makes it complicated to integrate their browser engine widget  ;)
[21:55] <JanC> maco: I know somebody who was talking about learning dutch sign language and pointed him to your project, maybe he can help you  ;)
[21:55] <JanC> once he starts his lessons...
[21:59] <vish> maco: webkit in SC? afaik , webkit is not used in the maverick version
[22:00] <vish> the accessibility concerns were the reason for the change..
[22:00] <vish> maco: it now uses gtk
[22:03] <maco> oh?
[22:03] <maco> JanC: i had the impression using mozilla wasnt too hard up until the part where ubuntu made a policy vetoing all apps that do so
[22:05] <JanC> maco: AFAIK mozilla's rendering engine is a PITA if you have to access things inside it from outside it
[22:05] <JanC> it makes things more difficult for the programmer
[22:06] <JanC> it's like talking to another person who speaks another language by using a translator
[22:07] <JanC> (I never tried it myself, but that's what I understood from an Epiphany developer)
[22:08] <AlanBell> there is only XUL
[22:08] <AlanBell> as it says in the DTD
[22:08] <mgdm> hehe
[22:08] <mgdm> that was a work of genius
[22:09] <JanC> I have no problem with the mozilla/XUL platform per sé, it just doesn't integrate well with other frameworks
[22:10] <JanC> I mean, nobody tries to use Qt widgets inside Gtk or vice versa, right?  :P
[22:26] <JanC> maco: what's the best thing to do for people who want to help?
[22:27] <maco> depends on their skills...
[22:27] <JanC> I'm thinking about adding support for additional sign languages
[22:27] <maco> oh for gally?
[22:27] <JanC> or testing them or such
[22:28] <maco> signal out
[22:29] <JanC> "signal out"?
[23:35] <maco> JanC: my network signal was about to drop due to tunnel
[23:36] <JanC> ah  ☺
[23:36] <maco> ok so anyway, about gally... i have to make kstandarddir stuff go, and thats what i'll probably be doing tomorrow when i get home from hospital (nothing serious, dont worry) and then itll be released version 0.5 and whats in mav and yay
[23:37] <maco> version 1.0 i want to have support for > 1 language, which, once i have kstandarddir support, shouldnt be too hard to plug in there... add a few loops and it should be good...but part of that will be adding KGetHotNewStuff support to download more tarballs of lessons
[23:37] <JanC> I was more thinking about how non-technical people can help  ;)
[23:38] <maco> non-tech people can help with making lessons
[23:38] <maco> make a list of lessons and vocab that should be in them, for example
[23:38] <maco> or if slightly more technical but not a programmer, turn such lists into xml files
[23:38] <JanC> yeah, is there a ML for this or something?
[23:38] <maco> or if having a camera and ability to use openshot/pitivi/whatever make videos / photos of signs
[23:39] <maco> mmm nope. figured people could file bugs like "add a lesson for names of foods"
[23:40] <JanC> most of them probably don't know what they can do  ;)
[23:40]  * maco checks lp intro pages
[23:41] <JanC> anyway, the person I was talking about is going to start a course of sign language soon, so he doesn't know anything yet, but he was looking for a rehearsal tool
[23:42] <maco> https://edge.launchpad.net/gally-asl  <-- does what i put there make sense for telling people things that help?
[23:43] <maco> havent got enough lessons for him to use it that way yet
[23:45] <JanC> well, IME making lessons is often more effective rehearsal than plain rehearsal  ;)
[23:46] <JanC> might still be useful to have a ML (or forum or such)
[23:46] <JanC> but I'll forward what you linked to
[23:47] <charlie-tca> could use the accessibility mailing list?
[23:48] <maco> charlie-tca: nah this is for a separate project i started that happens to interst a11y
[23:52] <JanC> maco: does Gally support rehearsal currently, or only lessons?
[23:53] <maco> lessons
[23:53] <maco> how do you mean rehearsal? like you sign in front of a webcam?
[23:54] <JanC> well, two things: 1. try to understand what is shown and 2. try to sign a given expression, then see if what you did was right
[23:55] <JanC> not necessarily have the program tell you if you were right/wrong  ;)
[23:56] <JanC> that would be possible too (e.g. using OpenCV) but require more work
[23:56] <maco> there is research going on to recognize signs people are doing from webcam, but its *hard*
[23:56] <maco> but yeah, quizzing is planned for 1.0
[23:56] <JanC> hey, you have #gally too  ;)
[23:58] <JanC> erkan^: is another person who might be able to help with dutch sign language