=== undifined_ is now known as UndiFineD
LaPulgaAtomica_Buenas noches a todos05:09
=== AndrewMC is now known as SpockVulcan
=== SpockVulcan is now known as AndrewMC
=== apachelogger_ is now known as apachelogger
MootBotMeeting started at 10:02. The chair is robbiew.16:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:02
robbiew[TOPIC] Lightning Round16:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Lightning Round16:04
robbiewbarry: ?16:04
barrygtimelog 0.4.0, repackaged, ppa, uploaded; python bugs: 9807 (pyconfig.h and Makefile), 9877 (sysconfig); udd work: wiki gardening, stakeholders meeting, bzr-debuntu plugin; general bug triaging; emacs 23.2 ffe testing; lpbug 434431 (cj icon); review bug 637955 merge proposal. (done)16:04
ubottuLaunchpad bug 9807 in base-config (Ubuntu) "Doesn't put {warty,hoary}-updates in sources.list" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980716:04
ubottuLaunchpad bug 637955 in python-mode.el "py-previous-statement fails" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/63795516:04
robbiewcjwatson: ?16:05
cjwatsonhi, sorry, give me a second - having network difficulties16:06
robbiewcjwatson: np...we'll come back to you16:06
doko* more handling of component mismatches, file MIR's, bug reports, ... people really should not be al16:07
dokolowed to pre-promote, the kubuntu guys seem to be very eager about this16:07
doko* llvm-2.8 updates16:07
doko* OOo update, armel builds now, but not in the lucid backport16:07
doko* some more ~20 armel package fix16:07
doko* file bug report about armel build failures, get preprocessed source, forward to Linaro16:07
doko* get the armel-cross-toolchain into maverick, helping hrw16:07
doko* some python3 uploads16:07
robbiewdoko: it appears that the fix for the fullscreen presentation in OOo broke other things...did that get officially released, or was that just in a test ppa16:08
Riddellpre-promotion is done because the MIR team is lacking in members and we were told to do so16:09
cjwatsonready when you are16:09
dokoRiddell: it doesn't help to subscribe the MIR team three months after filing the bug ...16:10
cjwatsonshall I go now?16:10
robbiewcjwatson: yes...please16:10
cjwatsondone: fixed regression from ntfs-3g update; wubi fixups for grub, hopefully fixing upgrades; dmraid fixes in grub; almost done with /lib/init/rw work in sysvinit; pushed Windows interop fix in grub out for testing; working on some grub 1.99 release blockers, e.g. re-enabling grub-extras16:10
cjwatsontodo: consolekit VT activation fixes; finish various bits of WIP; bug catchup treadmill, but not much more on my list is critical so I have some space16:10
cjwatson(probably some more archive catchup as well to help doko out)16:10
robbiewcjwatson: thnx16:11
ev* fixing installer bugs - please let me know if it's failing for you in any serious way.16:12
ev* Trying to get ubiquity reporting 0 errors in pyflakes, pychecker or pylint so that we can run it as a build step16:12
ev* figuring out how to best set up and utilize this installer testing under Hudson stuff in anticipation for the hardware arriving tomorrow (can partimage/ntfsclone the copy of windows back over for resize tests, or cheat and mkfs.ntfs)16:12
ev* working on setting up fakechroot to create an environment for testing individual ubiquity/d-i component interactions16:12
Riddellthere shouldn't be any outstanding ~ubuntu-archive bugs, I did the last ones this morning16:12
barryev: "Trying to get ubiquity reporting 0 errors in pyflakes, pychecker or16:12
barry     pylint so that we can run it as a build step" -- good luck :)16:12
evbarry: tell me about it16:12
dokoRiddell: maybe we should discuss this, but I think it's wrong to promote things when the security team has concerns which are not addressed16:13
dokosrtp again ...16:13
evpyflakes was mostly easy16:13
barryev: let me guess: pylint?16:13
robbiewev: thnx16:14
Riddelldoko: as I say I've been told to pre-promote them this cycle for lack of an active MIR team16:14
robbiewmvo: ?16:14
evbarry: yeah, verbose does not begin to describe pylint.  I think we have *some* hope with pychecker, but I worry about changing the code for the sake of making pychecker happy.16:14
mvomisc bugfixing; misc i18n fixes; software-center: add screenshots-by-version support, fix where-is-it for kde/purchased apps, ui improvements to the buy-something, update-manager fixes, debug upgrade failure with xserver-xorg-input16:14
cjwatsonyeah, I noticed some cases in our previous work where changes to make pychecker happy actually actively broke stuff16:14
barryev: we can take this off-line, but the trick is going to be basically suppressing tons of warnings either in the code or in your pylint.rc file.  so much fun :/16:15
evcjwatson: indeed, and I'm actively trying to avoid that :)16:15
evthough wildcard imports was the source of much of the feedback, and those were easy enough to fix16:15
barryev: suppress, suppress, suppress ;)16:16
evbarry: indeed :/16:16
robbiewpsurbhi: around?16:16
psurbhi1) worked on mdadm bugs (550131, 541058) related to map files and auto assembly. Have created a bzr branch with patches tested, kept at https://code.launchpad.net/~csurbhi/+junk/mdadm.fixes. Still looking at the path which gets "" assignment (earlier unknown). Also looking in neil browns git repo for fixes to other mdadm bugs. Some bugs do seem related to older mdadm versions.16:16
psurbhi2) looking at how lvm manages the array when the name changes due to auto assembly. Also investigating why autoassembly is failing for some users. Need to check if fixing the map file bugs helps anyone in this.16:16
psurbhi3) created a small mdadm document that says what features are currently supported and what to not expect to work correctly in, what patches are in queue (sponsorship requested). Shall upload this soon (after completion)16:16
robbiew[TOPIC] 10.10 Bugs16:18
MootBotNew Topic:  10.10 Bugs16:18
cjwatsoncan somebody volunteer to look at psurbhi's mdadm fixes branch and see what of it should be sponsored for maverick?16:18
psurbhialso a patch attached to bug 61772516:19
ubottuLaunchpad bug 617725 in mdadm (Ubuntu) "post installation handling of raid devices on boot" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/61772516:19
psurbhicould go in16:19
* robbiew can voluntell if needed16:19
psurbhicjwatson, robbiew, thanks a lot16:19
robbiewmvo: can you help with this?16:20
mvoI can, its not ideal, but I can give it a try16:21
mvosoftware-center-buy-something is in the final iteration, today is the day when we want to lift the restriction16:21
mvoso that purchase is open for anyone16:21
psurbhimvo, thanks! please let me know if you want something from me..16:21
robbiewI don't think it needs to be done today, does it?16:22
robbiewpsurbhi: ^16:23
* robbiew must be talking to himself in here16:25
robbiew[TOPIC] AOB/Good News?16:26
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB/Good News?16:26
psurbhirobbiew, no16:26
robbiewpsurbhi: thnx16:26
barryi'm seeing lots of crashes in gnome-keyring-daemon.  it's an assertion that apport cannot report.  not seeing any obvious dups in the tracker but there are lots of open crashes there.  has anybody else seen this?  i may have to spend some time investigating. :/16:26
robbiewhmm...I haven't seen that16:27
barryi'm on amd6416:27
barryanyway.  if not, i'll look into it16:28
robbiewbarry: I have an amd64 running 64bit, no problem with that...if I run into it, will let you know16:28
* mvo hasn't seen this either16:29
cjwatsongood news: wubi upgrades no longer make the system unbootable16:29
barryrobbiew, mvo k, thx16:29
cjwatson(haven't completed a full upgrade yet, but I upgraded just grub-common/grub-pc/lupin-support and it (a) still boots (b) uses a new grub to boot16:29
robbiewcjwatson: I suppose I should move on the releases.ubuntu.com/wubi hosting then16:29
barrycjwatson: i have a win7 vm i can do wubi tests on if you need16:30
cjwatsonbarry: I have win7 on real hardware16:31
cjwatsonmore testing doesn't hurt of course16:31
barrycjwatson: cool.  i have an msdn account (thx to psf) and can bring up vms for any windows os you need16:31
cjwatsonI'll remember that, may be useful16:31
barrycjwatson: np.  i'll take a look at wubi16:31
robbiewbarry: cool...I think marjo and QA would be interested in that too16:31
barryrobbiew: +1 will let marjo know16:32
* psurbhi shall shoot an email to friends to try out wubi :) 16:32
dokocjwatson: what needs to be done regarding archive cleanup before the release? I'm a bit scared about the demotions16:32
cjwatsondoko: I can work on the demotions; really just getting *-mismatches and NBS clean16:32
dokook, currently writing the two remaining MIRs16:33
dokolet me know how I can help with NBS16:34
robbiewokey dokey16:35
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:36.16:36
robbiewthx all16:36
barryrobbiew: thanks!16:36
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch
=== Ursinha-lunch is now known as Ursinha
inkvizitor68slhi all18:28
inkvizitor68slwhom i can contact to ask about pack of CDs for Ubuntu Install Fest ?18:28
akgranerinkvizitor68sl, see PM18:33
=== BlackZ_ is now known as BlackZ
highvoltageHi! I hav ea conference call with a client when the Edubuntu meeting starts, so I'll be at least a few minutes late, feel free to start without me :)19:57
=== ian_brasil___ is now known as ian_brasil
* stgraber waves20:15
stgraberanyone around ?20:15
stgraberok, I guess we can wait for highvoltage then ;)20:17
stgraberthough an edubuntu meeting is relatively pointless if that's only mgariepy, highvoltage and I considering that we are all 2m away in real life ;)20:18
stgraberhey czajkowski20:20
stgraberhow's it going ?20:20
czajkowskinot bad , keeping busy. yourself20:21
stgrabergood, quite busy recently. Looking forward to UDS to catch up on a few Ubuntu things I haven't quite had the time to work on recently (and seeing everyone again)20:22
czajkowskiyes looking forward to it alright20:22
* highvoltage morphs back into existence20:25
highvoltagejcastro asked if we want to do an educationaly OW session20:26
highvoltageI declined because I didn't find the last two sessions that I hosted particularly exiting20:26
highvoltageanyone else want to do it perhaps or have any ideas?20:26
stgraberwell, it was great to have it on the schedule just to show that we are alive, though I tend to agree that they weren't particularly crowded20:27
vmlintumaybe I should attend to find out what I could do..20:29
highvoltageI started working on installation instructions for 10.10, it's viewable already, although not linked, if anyone wants to provide feedback it's over here: http://edubuntu.org/documentation/10.10/installation-guide20:30
highvoltagevmlintu: :)20:30
highvoltagevmlintu: I think what we need in Edubuntu is a wiki page with to-do list items that we maintain on a weekly bases20:30
highvoltagethat way, if someone pops in and says "hey! I want to help but I don't know what to help with" then there's something we can point them to.20:31
ScottKhighvoltage: Feel free to copy https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo if it's useful.20:32
highvoltageScottK: that's very nice, thanks!20:32
ScottKYou're welcome.20:32
highvoltagekubuntu always seems to be 2 steps ahead everyone else :)20:32
* mhall119 is here20:36
stgraberhey mhall11920:36
highvoltagehey mhall11920:36
vmlintusometimes following what is actually happening on the development front is quite hard from here, I have to say20:37
highvoltageI don't think I have anything else for this week, nothing I can think of now at least :)20:37
mhall119highvoltage: couldn't we use LP's bug tracker for that?20:37
mhall119or blueprints20:37
mhall119the to-do list I mean20:37
highvoltagevmlintu: *nod* I'd like to hear more about that if you have any comments, or even suggestions on how we can improve20:37
stgraberbugs might do the trick for some stuff, blueprint is usually too much paperwork (unless it's an actual feature that needs to be developed and for which that kind of tracking is useful)20:38
highvoltagevmlintu: I'm going to blog about recent changes today, but it has all been said in previous irc meetings though20:38
mhall119I'll be honest, I haven't been keeping up with edubuntu20:39
mhall119I've had a hard time keeping up with anything, work, school, life...20:39
mhall119I'm hoping UDS-N will help me focus on the next cycle20:39
highvoltagemhall119: indeed, I'd suggest that things that need to be done have a bug assosiated to it, I think it would be nice though to have a wiki page that summarises them20:40
highvoltagemhall119: I think it's normal for people to get out of sync regularly, ubuntu projects move *fast* and a lot of things happen20:41
highvoltageI don't think there's anyone in the project that actually keeps up with *everything* that happens in more or less real time20:41
highvoltagemhall119: I don't know if that's what you were talking about :)20:43
highvoltageI know you've been somewhat busy20:43
highvoltageit's nice that this time round, we'll pretty much all be at UDS, so we'll be able to get some of the stuff like the desktop-profiles stuff done for qimo at least :)20:44
stgraberyep, and having the ltsp hackfest just after will also ensure having some time (including mgariepy's) for anything were we need some kind of teamwork ;)20:44
highvoltageanything else? I think we can move back to #edubuntu :)20:46
stgraberNothing to add here for that meeting20:46
highvoltageok... /me > #edubuntu20:47
mhall119highvoltage: I'm definitely looking forward to develing an actual roadmap for Qimo20:49
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
oso_Buenas tardes22:14
james_wgo team win22:58
thumperhi james_w22:59
james_whi thumper22:59
james_whow are you?22:59
thumperfrustrated, you?22:59
james_wa bit of that too, been hitting fragile code all day22:59
* thumper nods23:00
james_wwhat's the source of you frustration?23:00
thumperthe private xmlrpc server23:00
thumpertiming out weirdly23:00
thumperand I have no idea why23:00
james_whmm, fun23:00
barryhi guys, ready to meet?23:00
james_wprivate being for code imports?23:00
james_whi barry23:00
lifelessbeing internal to the dc23:00
thumperjames_w: yes, and the smart server (and mailman)23:00
lifelesscode imports is one client23:00
thumperI'd love to blame mailman, but not sure if I can23:01
thumperhi barry23:01
thumperwe miss you23:01
thumpercome back23:01
barryis rockstar and poolie here?23:01
barrythumper: aw, thanks man!  i miss you guys too23:01
thumperbarry: rockstar isn't coming23:02
thumperbarry: I'm here for code23:02
barrythumper: awesome23:02
barryand there's poolie!23:02
pooliehi barry!23:02
pooliehi all23:02
barrylet's start, i can smell dinner cooking :)23:02
MootBotMeeting started at 17:02. The chair is barry.23:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]23:02
barrywelcome to the kickoff meeting for udd stakeholders.  all are welcome to join23:03
barry[TOPIC] agenda23:03
MootBotNew Topic:  agenda23:03
pooliegood agenda23:04
barrypoolie's making a mumble room for us23:04
pooliebackchannel in Ubuntu/Ubuntu Distributed Development on mumble23:05
poolietechnology! :)23:05
barrytechmology (sic)23:06
poolieno additions to the agenda? next topic?23:06
thumperas long as it is only a backchannel23:06
thumperas NZ doesn't like mumble23:06
poolieremember to use the mute button or push-to-talk23:06
barry[TOPIC] * Planning for UDS-N23:06
MootBotNew Topic:  * Planning for UDS-N23:06
barry   * How many sessions do we need? (e.g. an educational one for new users, a dev one for planning Natty work)23:06
barry 23:06
lifelesswhats AOB?23:06
poolie"any other business"23:07
barrylifeless: any other business23:07
james_wwe got some good feedback last time from a session dedicated to that23:07
pooliei think one planning session would be good,23:07
barryso, we definitely want to do a developers session.  does it make sense to do an evangelizing/educational session too?23:07
pooliemaybe one feedback session23:07
barrypoolie: would the feedback session be the developers session?23:07
poolieCharline from DX (or something like that?) will be at UDS and i'm trying to arrange for her to do some user studies of people actually doing UDD23:07
thumperI think an educational session is needed23:08
poolieor using bzr or launchpad23:08
james_wIf we have specific things to discuss in more detail then a UDS session is appropriate. I would think that general planning might be obsoleted by these meetings?23:08
pooliethat's probably not a session as such23:08
barrypoolie: +1 for charline doing that study23:08
james_wyeah, and talking to developers outside sessions is always valuable23:08
barryjames_w: definitely23:08
pooliemootbot: action: poolie to confirm charline to do user studies23:08
pooliewe could also line up some attendees to participate23:09
barry[ACTION] poolie to confirm charline to do user studies23:09
MootBotACTION received:  poolie to confirm charline to do user studies23:09
pooliefeedback sessions can be good, but not everybody feels comfortable speaking about their experience in a big room23:10
poolieor they may simply not remember what they want to say23:10
pooliecan we do this better?23:10
poolieis there another example of a feedback-type session that's worked really well?23:10
james_wI think the need for work planning sessions may become obvious from our discussions today and over the next month23:11
poolieif it's mostly work planning between the people already active in udd, it may not strictly need to be at a session23:11
barryis it enough just to make sure folks know how to contact the mlist or stakeholders?  e.g. pvt feedback which we can turn into bugs, blueprints, etc?23:11
poolieotoh having it on the schedule allows interested people to turn up and propose changes to the agenda23:11
poolieor just find out about it23:11
james_wbarry: I think that's a good start, and talking to people to encourage them and get feedback in an individual setting will help23:12
slangasekpoolie: include in the session a clearly identified "if you have other feedback, contact/click [...]"?  That way you grab any feedback from folks who think of what to say afterwards or are shy23:12
james_wbut I think feedback session can be useful to draw some people out of the woodwork23:12
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
barrypoolie: yep.  it provides an outlet for people who may be interested, or have dabbled, but don't focus on it that closely23:12
james_w1 year ago it was basically mathiaz listing problems he had, as most people in the room hadn't used it in anger, but 6 months ago there was broader participation23:13
slangasekand then have that in the gobby doc on the projector, etc., and announced > 5min before end of session23:13
poolieright, it does seem to be slowly building up23:13
pooliei don't know if we'll get around to it but it would be kind of cool to have a poster in the foyer23:13
poolieas another way to prompty people to talk to us23:13
barrythat's a good idea.  i can talk to robbiew about that23:14
pooliehe's going to draw the poster? :-) or just about whether he's ok with it23:14
barrywhether it's okay, where to put it, etc23:14
thumperI think having a gobby feedback file lowers the barrier for people to comment/complain23:14
thumperthere will be people that will write but not talk23:14
poolieright, we can try to cover all channels23:15
barry[ACTION] talk to robbiew about getting a poster to prompt people to contact us re: udd feedback23:15
MootBotACTION received:  talk to robbiew about getting a poster to prompt people to contact us re: udd feedback23:15
barrythumper: cool23:15
slangasekthumper: frustratingly, sometimes these are people who are remote and have given us no other way to contact them for follow-up questions ;)23:15
poolieso we want an educational session, a feedback session, a planning session23:16
poolieanything else?23:16
barryso, one feedback session for sure.  what about a separate educational session?  get the stakeholders to put together a short demonstration about how all the pieces fit together?23:16
james_wI think that would be a good ide23:16
pooliei think a short demo would be good23:16
pooliethat may actually draw other good feedback23:16
poolie"i tried that but ....."23:16
james_wfor one thing it forces us to look at the on-ramp23:16
thumperslangasek: I think all you can do to address that is to indicate clearly that to best get things changed we need contact details :)23:16
thumperslangasek: although people will still leave that out23:16
thumperbarry: +1 on an educational on-ramp type session23:17
barryexcellent. and a planning session if we think it's worth it by the time we get there23:17
barry   * Who will register and lead the sessions?23:17
barry   * Which track should it be in?23:17
barry 23:17
barryi'll register the sessions23:18
poolie[action] poolie to organize a foyer poster (assuming it will be23:18
poolie(you get what i mean)23:18
barryi do, but mootbot doesn't :)23:18
barry[ACTION] poolie to organize a foyer poster (assuming it will be23:18
MootBotACTION received:  poolie to organize a foyer poster (assuming it will be23:18
UndiFineDwhat will be the IRC channels for UDS ?23:18
james_wUndiFineD: #ubuntu-uds23:18
poolieare there going to be as many tracks as LaHulpe? that was pretty enormous23:18
james_wwe are moving to something slightly different this time I think23:19
barryUndiFineD: there will be session channels based on the track that the session is in.  it'll all be up on the wiki by that time23:19
slangasekso one thing happening this time is that UDS is being organized by "theme" rather than "track"23:19
james_wthough I don't know if many people understand what that will be23:19
UndiFineDah that's good to know :)23:19
slangasek(but using all the existing summit code :)23:19
poolieistr someone talking of there already being a draft schedule somewhere?23:19
MootBotLINK received:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-n/23:19
slangasekmind the falling tracebacks, though23:20
james_win a debug method no less23:20
barrywfm :)23:20
poolieso i guess they would be "Development Process?"23:20
slangasekanyway, that shows the current 'themes' that have been proposed23:20
slangasekpoolie: I think so23:20
MootBotLINK received:  http://uds.ubuntu.com/tracks/23:21
lifelesswin 3823:21
poolieperhaps something under "Application Developers" about just general non-packaging use of bzr/lp, tutorial and/or feedback23:21
barryyep, makes the most sense given what's there23:21
james_wwith a different list23:21
james_wpoolie: I think that would be appreciated23:21
james_wso +1 on development process if it is one of the tracks23:21
pooliebarry would you be so kind as to register that too while you're at it; me as lead23:22
james_wotherwise some sort of "other, misc" I guess23:22
barryjames_w: agreed.  poolie you mean, register a session on general bzr/lp usage?23:22
slangasekah, so which set of themes is authoritative :/23:22
pooliebarry, yes, in the "application developers" stream23:22
barry[ACTION] barry to register general bzr/lp session in "app devs" theme23:23
MootBotACTION received:  barry to register general bzr/lp session in "app devs" theme23:23
barryi guess these things will get settled in the next couple of weeks.  we can look again at our next meeting for track/registration specifics (if there's no obvious candidates)23:24
pooliejameinel and myself will be there from bzr, plus about one person from each lp subteam23:24
barryi think we know what udd sessions we want though, shall we move on?23:24
barrypoolie: awesome23:25
barry[TOPIC]  * What are the top three things we need to add to make UDD more attractive to established devs?23:25
MootBotNew Topic:   * What are the top three things we need to add to make UDD more attractive to established devs?23:25
barry 23:25
barryin bazaar; in lp?23:25
james_wthat's Ubuntu developers?23:25
barryjames_w: yes i think so23:25
barryalthough i have a dream that everyone is an ubuntu developer :)23:26
james_wI guess not everyone is established though23:26
lifelessreview process23:26
james_wI wonder if there are any Ubuntu devs watching that might like to weigh in as well23:26
slangasekgit round-trip support?23:27
lifelessjust to say, I think having the review stuff - queues, notification, landing stories improved would probably help a lot23:27
lifelessbut thats wearing my motu hat.23:27
barrylifeless: what specifically needs improving?23:27
slangasekdunno, maybe that's not actually all that relevant to UDD / established Ubuntu devs, but it's something I hear a lot :/23:27
lifelessbarry: spend a day in REVU23:27
james_wlifeless: could you join the dots there please?23:28
poolielifeless: #ubuntu-revu?23:28
lifelesspoolie: its a webapp23:28
lifelessjames_w: ok.23:28
james_wslangasek: I believe it is on the way23:28
lifelessso, motu gets a lot of new packages -many more than main -23:28
poolieyou mean, look at REVU for a smoother review workflow than is offered by lp?23:28
lifelessand there is a complex review process needed to vet the package.23:28
lifelessIts a (slight) superset of the stuff needed when an upstream release is made of an existing package.23:29
lifelessand the LP review process for package branches doesn't handle either scenario (new, upstream-release) well.23:29
pooliethere's another related question which is: how do we best communicate what we are doing, and what we think needs doing next23:29
lifelesspoolie: yes, look at REVU, its /much/ more comprehensive - showing the diff is only a small fraction.23:29
pooliethis meeting, and the list, perhaps are enough23:29
pooliethumper: ^^ :)23:30
slangaseklifeless: would that encompass, say, having branch perms change with the state of the freeze and letting archive admins / release team / SRU team land changes by merging?23:30
barrypoolie: though we do want to reach out to folks not on the udd list23:30
lifelessslangasek: its in the broad topic I'm talking about, yes.23:30
thumperpoolie: yes, we know we don't handle package review very well23:30
lifelessbasically we have a generic nice tool (Merge proposals) but we need to have a generic nice tool *for packages* too.23:31
barrylifeless: in your happy world, would lp eventually replace revu?23:31
pooliebarry, that's true23:31
lifelessand there are lots of angles; I haven't done a pareto analysis to say which bit should be done first.23:31
thumperlifeless: there is work in progress to split the code-review from the proposal-to-merge23:31
lifelessbarry: hell yes.23:31
slangaseklifeless: that's *my* killer feature for UDD... but I don't think it's possible to achieve unless we're already flipping the switch for building packages from branches23:31
thumperwith the intention to make the review part usable elsewhere23:31
lifelessthumper: that work is unrelated to me.23:31
barrylifeless: that's what i wanted to hear! :)23:31
thumperlike package reviews23:31
thumperis that unrelated?23:31
ajmitchlifeless: I'd be happy to kill off REVU, too :)23:31
lifelessthumper: but they are still branch reviews23:32
lifelessthumper: so I don't think splitting it helps at all23:32
slangaseklifeless: since otherwise you make the freeze reviewer do all the uploads & package signing besides23:32
lifelessthumper: I'm not saying 'keep it unsplit' I'm saying 'its on a different dimension'23:32
lifelessslangasek: exactly.23:32
* thumper nods23:32
james_wslangasek: so that would be a vote for building from branches?23:32
james_w(as a prerequisite for your vote for the landing of changes as a release/SRU team member)23:33
slangasekjames_w: yesyesyes23:33
lifelessI find a good way to join dots in situations like this is to take someone - say slangasek - and watch what they do to do a review during freeze; at the first non-well-integrated bit, hit the stop button, go away, fix it.23:33
poolieso one lateral approach to this would be to see what is necessary to make revu present the same ui/workflow on top of branches23:33
lifeless(given that we have an overall vision already)23:33
slangasekactually, thinking on it, -proposed might be the very place to trial build-from-branch23:33
pooliei don't know if that's at all feasible23:33
slangasekonce we're ready for such a trial :)23:33
james_wpoolie: should be feasible yes23:33
barrywho's responsible for revu?23:34
james_wpoolie: except that it has some tie-ins to source packages, and so you have to deal with arbitrary code execution, or take as input a branch and a source package23:34
slangasekbarry: community members23:35
ajmitchbarry: I'm one of the revu admins23:35
slangasekit's revu.ubuntuwire.com23:35
ajmitchrainct has hacked on it quite a bit, branch is on lp:revu23:35
barryajmitch: hi.  i wonder if, as a revu admin, it would make sense to pull you in as a udd stakeholder?23:35
ajmitchbarry: sure23:35
slangasekso another thing that's been on my list for a while that only just now surfaced in my brain... tools for local partial mirrors of bzr package branches23:36
james_wso far I have seen 1) better review of package branches (revu, new upstream etc) 2) build-from-branch for PRIMARY23:36
barryajmitch: that would be cool.  i'll add your name to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Meetings23:36
slangasekI have a local source mirror of Ubuntu main; I can't easily do the same for the branches AFAIK23:36
poolieright, i can see how that would help a lot23:36
james_w3) interacting with git23:36
james_wthere must be more than that :-)23:37
* ajmitch had written up some stuff about branch mirrors somewhere, will take a look for it23:37
barryjames_w: well, there are some lower level pet peeves of mine :)23:37
poolieany particular bugs that bite?23:37
pooliewe'd heard previously that resolving some conflicts were difficult23:38
pooliespeed/memory usage on huge trees23:38
poolieoh, speed of accessing launchpad?23:38
james_wv3 quilt packages IMO23:38
barryi'm thinking about the whole looms/packaging branches story23:38
barryand loom threads <--> patch system23:38
pooliethat would be good23:39
poolieto me that's the likely next bit of feature work, together with colocated branches23:39
poolieobviously there are a few entangled bits there23:39
barryi suspect nested branches will be part of that solution too23:39
barrypoolie: yeah23:39
lifelessnested-loomed branches.23:39
lifelessbarry: I'm not convinced - at all - that you want debian/ to be a nested branch.23:40
barrylifeless: the real goal there is i think better integration with debian, so that we can get our changes to them23:40
lifelessbarry: I think that that would be a mistake.23:40
james_wand just this second we have https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/maverick/libvirt/maverick-201009222219/+merge/36394 to illustrate my point23:40
pooliehow about issues of mergeability between packaging branches and upstream23:41
barryjames_w: lovely23:41
poolieor reliability of imports?23:41
barrypoolie: yes, to both, definitely23:41
pooliei guess generally i'd like to get a sense for where our users want the more_fixes:more_features slider to be set23:41
james_wboth ends at once23:42
barrylifeless: i've been struggling with the right model and try different things each time.  i'm not positive nested branches are right either, but the current situation isn't ideal.  but i'm very open to suggestions.  i just want the work flow to be much smother23:42
poolieyeah i thought so :)23:42
barryer, smoother (freudian slip)23:42
* ajmitch thinks reliability of imports is a big one for adoption of udd - people give up if the branch is several revisions behind23:42
slangasekhow are we on archive coverage in UDD (i.e., import failures)?  My general impression is that trying to use UDD and running into a package that's not imported / not up-to-date kills any enthusiasm they might've had23:43
barryyep, and i'm perfectly happy prioritizing bugs/features so we can knock out the biggest roadblocks first23:43
slangasekah, ajmitch is on the same wavelength :)23:43
slangasekso in that respect I think the slider needs to be heavily towards 'bugs' right now23:43
slangaseker, 'fixes'; no more bugs please ;)23:44
poolieslangasek, barry: james may correct me but i believe the import success rate is above 95% but below 100%23:44
james_wwe have 725 packages out of date right now23:44
poolieso if people access many packages, they may hit that discouraging situation of finding one out of date23:44
barrypoolie: that roughly jives with my own experience of finding missing or out of date source branches23:44
james_wunfortunately they aren't uniformly distributed across the set of all packages23:45
slangasekIME the chance of a package being out of date is much, much higher if it's a package that's frequently touched in Ubuntu23:45
pooliejames_w: out of about 20k?23:45
james_wpoolie: ~17k23:45
slangasek... and particularly if it's a package I've touched because I tend to use 'bzr co' instead of 'bzr branch' :/23:45
barryjames_w: is it at all correlated to vcs's or upstream hosting provider?23:45
pooliewe did make a graph <https://lpstats.canonical.com/graphs/UddSourcePackagesWithoutBranches/> (canonical-only for technical reasons, sorry)23:46
pooliecurrently reading 023:46
james_wthe latest failure appears to be because slangasek just pushed a bzr-git branch to lp:ubuntu/armel-cross-toolchain-base23:46
pooliebut this is the number of packages with no import branch at all23:46
slangasekjames_w: oh, does that break things?  Neato!23:46
pooliewhich is not quite the same as them being up to date23:46
slangasekjames_w: I have two more of those coming ;)23:46
pooliei could make a better graph that somehow runs the hottest-100 tool23:46
james_wbarry: not really. More correlated to the size of package/number of uploads23:46
poolieor indeed perhaps just one that parses that number out of the package-import output23:46
* barry nods23:47
pooliejames_w would that be reasonable to use? the number on the home page that's currently 725?23:47
james_wslangasek: it's not broken as much as asking for a human to check because from it's point of view it just went from one history to another entirely23:47
james_wpoolie: two concerns, the first being asking the tool for the count isn't going to be entirely accurate, the second being that parsing the webpage probably isn't the cleanest way of doing it23:48
slangasekjames_w: ok, so that's the intended effect then :)23:48
james_wI have no problem with us graphing that number, and could probably even have the tool do it itself23:48
barryso, just to bring this topic around, i think we need a well-defined way to identify the problems and publicize our priority for fixing them.  certainly the wiki can be the latter if we can keep it gardened23:49
pooliejames_w: perhaps i'll graph that as an intermediate step then arrange for our hottest100 verifier (which isn't limited to the hottest100) to be graphed23:49
barryi guess lp:udd for bugs for getting issues into the system23:49
james_wpoolie: fwiw there's already a script on jubany that will output relevant numbers in cricket format23:49
poolie[ACTION] poolie to get a better graph of package import failures23:49
poolieis that going to work?23:50
barryand i will capture what's been identified above23:50
poolieor it has to be Mr Barry?23:50
barry[ACTION] poolie to get a better graph of package import failures23:50
MootBotACTION received:  poolie to get a better graph of package import failures23:50
james_wbarry: yes, udd for any bugs related to this at all23:50
poolieso there's some useful feedback there23:50
james_wI'm happy to move them to more appropriate places as needed23:50
pooliesome of these things are more like tasks; this doesn't totally fit lp's "bug in a package" model23:50
pooliebut we can do it23:50
barrypoolie: mootbot is not your friend :)23:50
poolieand people seem to generally agree with a slant towards removing bugs that block what's available now23:51
barrysounds good23:51
poolieand on performance it sounds like, more would be nice but it's not generally the most pressing issue?23:51
* ajmitch would love to see LP having mirrors of branches somewhere other than the UK, but that's another topic :)23:52
james_wI would appreciate someone thinking through with me making the import service more reliable23:52
lifelessmove it to the main LP infrastructure23:52
lifelessthere's -lots- of machinery for reliability there.23:53
barryajmitch: connectivity to my corner of the USA doesn't seem too bad :)23:53
lifelessincluding scheduling, reporting and alterting23:53
UndiFineDajmitch, what is the size of LP ?23:53
slangasekpoolie: well, "need partial mirrors" was a proxy for "performance sucks when I have to download the full branch fresh from launchpad to work on an arbitrary package" :-)23:53
ajmitchbarry: right, it's something I've ranted about before but haven't written up how I think it could possibly work23:53
pooliebtw jam has a branch up that when landed will cut a bit over 2s overhead off opening an ssh connection to lp23:53
barrylifeless: do you know someone on lp who can make that happen? <wink>23:53
thumperUndiFineD: size of what? code base, number of branches, size of branches?23:53
james_wlifeless: it has scheduling and reporting23:53
thumperjames_w: who reads the reports?23:54
UndiFineDthumper, any info that is relevant to mirroring23:54
pooliei'd like to break down the inertia that p-i is just james's thing23:54
barrypoolie: i *always* use a shared repo23:54
james_wthumper: anyone who uses the webpage, I don't know if anyone else looks at them regularly23:54
pooliei think some other people have sent you patches?23:54
pooliebut not very much23:54
james_wjam has sent a few23:55
barryshall we move on to the next topic?23:56
lifelessjames_w: its up to you; I think you'd be less of a special case if it ran as part of th eoveral LP stack is all23:56
lifelessjames_w: I'm not suggesting making it use the DB or anything.23:56
james_wlifeless: see the wiki page above23:56
pooliebarry, yes, let's move on23:56
thumperbarry: you have 3 minutes :)23:56
james_wplus, it would be nice to work out why LP now likes to do this every so often: http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/remote-tty.html23:56
lifelessjames_w: yes yes ;)23:57
lifelessoh that 401 is interesting.23:57
barrythumper: we might go a little over.  i'm going to skip the critical bugs item because i think we've mined that in this topic (without identifying specific bugs)23:57
barry[TOPIC]  * How do we promote and evangelize UDD to the wider Ubuntu developer community?23:57
barry 23:57
MootBotNew Topic:   * How do we promote and evangelize UDD to the wider Ubuntu developer community?23:57
barrycertainly a uds session is a start23:57
barryi've blogged about it, so that reaches two other people23:58
ajmitchconsistent, clear documentation on how to do common tasks (what's there is pretty good)23:58
james_wthe documentation could certainly be improved. I consider what's there to be a bare minimum23:59
barryajmitch: i think they are pretty good howtos now (maybe could use a bit of gardening).23:59
james_wI think some pictures would help23:59

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