[00:00] <barry> james_w: i'd be willing to start a branch of reST/sphinx docs
[00:00] <james_w> barry: lets do it
[00:01] <poolie> it seems like it will tip over once it gets into the general 'how do you start doing things in ubuntu?' documentation
[00:01] <poolie> not specific UDD stuff
[00:01] <barry> we just have to be careful about not having two locations for docs that get out of date
[00:01] <slangasek> barry: how would that integrate with wiki.u.c, which is where existing devs expect to findstuff?
[00:01] <poolie> which you could say would be the moment we exit our alpha phase
[00:01] <poolie> it's probably not ready to be the only thing recommended, but is it mentioned there now?
[00:02] <barry> slangasek: i don't have an answer for that atm, but it's what i was getting at above
[00:02] <barry> poolie: i think it's pretty well hidden
[00:02] <slangasek> barry: ack
[00:02] <barry> [ACTION] barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c
[00:02] <poolie> can we make it a bit less hidden now?
[00:02] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c
[00:03] <james_w> Daniel did some work on putting it in as an alternative in the packaging guide I think
[00:03] <poolie> dholbach?
[00:03] <james_w> yeah
[00:03] <poolie> barry could you talk to him too?
[00:04] <barry> poolie: yep.  i think the way to describe it now is that udd is a viable alternative, may have rough spots, but is the wave of the future
[00:04] <ajmitch> it's currently in there at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Creating a Debdiff
[00:04] <james_w> I think this is certainly a topic worth coming back to frequently
[00:04] <barry> ajmitch: thanks
[00:04] <barry> james_w: agreed
[00:05] <barry> [ACTION] barry to talk to dholbach about making sure udd is well advertised in pkg guide
[00:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to talk to dholbach about making sure udd is well advertised in pkg guide
[00:05] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Promote open job on Python job's board?
[00:05] <barry>  
[00:05] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Promote open job on Python job's board?
[00:05] <barry> poolie: what do you think?
[00:06] <james_w> what's the purpose of that board?
[00:06] <thumper> which job?
[00:06] <barry> to reach the wider python community about job openings
[00:06] <james_w> then I think it makes sense
[00:06] <barry> thumper: sorry, i misplaced the link -- it's specifically a canonical udd opening
[00:07] <thumper> ok
[00:07] <barry> i will write it up in python job board fashion and submit it.  i just don't want the resumes :)
[00:07] <poolie> barr, i think that would be great
[00:07] <james_w> it will certainly involve a lot of Python
[00:07] <barry> [ACTION] barry to submit udd opening to python job board
[00:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to submit udd opening to python job board
[00:08] <poolie> i'm actually even more interested in how we could get people with deb/ubuntu packaging experience
[00:08] <poolie> james_w: you don't have a sister do you?
[00:08] <barry> poolie: or a twin/clone? :)
[00:08] <james_w> poolie: I do
[00:08] <thumper> sibling?
[00:08] <james_w> not really her area of expertise though
[00:09]  * slangasek chuckles
[00:09] <poolie> is there an #ubuntu-jobs, or would it be horribly offtopic to post to ubuntu-devel?
[00:09] <slangasek> IIRC there's a debian-jobs
[00:09] <ajmitch> people may watch the normal ubuntu.com/employment page
[00:09] <james_w> I don't think it would be terribly offtopic
[00:09] <barry> ajmitch: i think it's on there
[00:09] <james_w> and we could sell it on debian-jobs
[00:10] <barry> james_w: debian-jobs is a mailing list?
[00:10] <james_w> I think so
[00:10] <poolie> it's http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_BSE
[00:10] <barry> poolie: thanks
[00:10] <slangasek> yes, lists.debian.org/debian-jobs/
[00:10] <poolie> (incidentally the canonical employment page sucks to have such generic text about the jobs, but it's being worked on)
[00:11] <barry> slangasek: cool.  well, if i'm going to do the pyjobs board, i can send an email to that too.  poolie will you work with me to craft the right language?
[00:11] <poolie> sure
[00:11] <poolie> james or slangasek, could you post to ubuntu-devel and to debian-jobs?
[00:11] <slangasek> though I guess as many Debian people read the webapps.ubuntu.com postings as follow debian-jobs, maybe
[00:11] <barry> [ACTION] barry and poolie to work on posting to debian-jobs
[00:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry and poolie to work on posting to debian-jobs
[00:11] <james_w> one of the things we are interested in is working better with Debian, so debian-jobs seems vaguely appropriate
[00:11] <slangasek> barry: we could also circulate it word-of-mouth within the Debian python community, if we're specifically after python + packaging experience
[00:11] <barry> james_w: +1.  happy too if you or slangasek want to take that on
[00:11] <slangasek> I wouldn't post it to debian-python though :P
[00:12] <barry> slangasek: :)
[00:12] <poolie> slangasek: i'd really appreciate that
[00:13] <barry> cool. i think we've identified some good outlets
[00:13] <barry> [TOPIC]  * bzr-debuntu - good idea, crappy implementation? :)
[00:13] <barry>  
[00:13] <MootBot> New Topic:   * bzr-debuntu - good idea, crappy implementation? :)
[00:13] <barry> this is mostly just self gratification :)
[00:13] <poolie> probably. next topic?
[00:13] <poolie> :)
[00:13] <poolie> no, actually it does look good
[00:13] <ajmitch> brief explanation for the uninitiated?
[00:13] <poolie> if it's a generic url-shortcutting thing we should probably split it into a mechanism + setting thing
[00:14] <james_w> barry: I would have no problem merging it with bzr-builddeb if you wanted
[00:14] <barry> i wasn't sure if ubuntu:maverick/foo was better than ubuntu+maverick/foo, but it was certainly easier to register
[00:14] <thumper> barry: hmm...
[00:14] <slangasek> sorry, what's bzr-debuntu?
[00:14] <poolie> to me the first is more tasteful
[00:14] <james_w> using one of poolie's favourite terms: "policy layer"
[00:14] <barry> slangasek: bzr branch u:gtimelog == lp:ubuntu/gtimelog
[00:14] <ajmitch> a bzr plugin for changing lp: urls to be shorter?
[00:14] <slangasek> ah
[00:15] <barry> ajmitch: yep
[00:15] <poolie> https://edge.launchpad.net/bzr-debuntu
[00:15] <poolie> https://code.launchpad.net/~barry/bzr-alldocs/debuntu/+merge/36357
[00:15] <ajmitch> that'd be a lot of documentation to change & habits to break :)
[00:15] <barry> james_w: +1
[00:16] <barry> ajmitch: it's just a convenience.  it uses the launchpad plugin to do the actual lookup.  so "quick and dirty"
[00:16] <slangasek> is that going to be supported by bzr out-of-the-box, like lp: is?  Otherwise it may create tension when it comes to writing Vcs-Bzr fields in packages in particular
[00:16] <james_w> barry: with additional things that we discussed at the rally too
[00:16] <thumper> barry: we want to stop the plugin actually doing lookups
[00:16] <barry> james_w: +1
[00:16] <thumper> barry: but there is a little more LP work to make that happen
[00:17] <barry> thumper: nod
[00:17] <barry> anyway, no need to go into too much detail.  bzr-builddeb does seem like a happy home for it
[00:17] <poolie> slangasek: i think it's be good to have it built in, which is why i'm interested in making it clean and having separate policy
[00:17] <poolie> just as simple as {'u': 'lp:ubuntu/'}
[00:17] <poolie> for the expansions
[00:18] <barry> cool
[00:18] <slangasek> ok
[00:18] <barry> [TOPIC] AOB
[00:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[00:18] <slangasek> yeah, bzr-builddeb is something the dev may install /after/ doing a debcheckout, so we don't want debcheckout to fail :)
[00:18] <barry> anybody have anything not on the agenda?
[00:18] <slangasek> not from me
[00:18] <barry> slangasek: ultimately, they all map back to bzr+ssh urls
[00:19] <poolie> thanks very much
[00:19] <slangasek> barry: but doing that mapping by hand as a non-bzr-y dev --> fail
[00:19] <poolie> i know this meeting was a bit scrappy but it's really useful to be getting some feedback regularly
[00:19] <barry> one point of order.  dst down under will mean we're moving this meeting one hour earlier utc in two weeks.  we'll keep it that way at least until november (when the usa leaves dst)
[00:19] <slangasek> poolie: happy to help :)
[00:19] <poolie> let's do it again in 2m?
[00:19] <barry> slangasek: i know :(
[00:20] <poolie> i mean 2 weeks
[00:20] <james_w> ye
[00:20] <james_w> p
[00:20] <slangasek> yeppers
[00:20] <barry> poolie: phew! i'm hungry.  2w, and yep i agree
[00:20] <poolie> what barry said is what's already on the calendar, i think
[00:20] <thumper> ack
[00:20] <barry> fab.  just wanted to thank everyone for coming and we'll chat again in 2w if not sooner
[00:20] <barry> #endmeeting
[00:20] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:20.
[00:21] <poolie> and before november, i'll see most of you in florida
[00:21] <poolie> thanks
[00:21] <slangasek> thanks, all
[00:21] <james_w> thanks everyone
[00:21]  * barry -> dinner
[00:21] <barry> oh, and i'll get the minutes up on the wiki but probaby not until tomorrow
[02:00] <nhandler> #startmeeting
[02:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 20:00. The chair is nhandler.
[02:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[02:00] <nigelb> o/
[02:00] <nhandler> Classroom Team Meeting. Who is here?
[02:00] <Pendulum> o/
[02:00] <pleia2> o/
[02:00] <nhandler> akgraner, cjohnston: ?
[02:00] <cjohnston> o/
[02:01] <nhandler> Looks like Amber isn't here.
[02:01] <nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/MeetingAgenda2010Sep23
[02:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/MeetingAgenda2010Sep23
[02:01] <nhandler> [TOPIC] Who is still involved in the Classroom and what are they doing?
[02:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Who is still involved in the Classroom and what are they doing?
[02:02] <nhandler> I might as well start
[02:02] <pleia2> :)
[02:03] <nhandler> Over the past few months, I've been developing ClassBot. Currently, I'm working on cleaning up Lernid a bit (since it has no maintainer) and the LoCo Day event. Next month, I will be coordinating the Packaging Training sessions
[02:03] <nhandler> Someone else go ahead
[02:03] <cjohnston> My answer: school sucks
[02:03] <cjohnston> ;-)
[02:03] <pleia2> I've mostly been working with individuals to get classes going, but most recently with the BT dev folks to get their programming classes going
[02:03] <pleia2> and typical stuff like updating the blog, answering replies on the list, etc
[02:04] <Pendulum> I've been kinda hanging around unsure what I should be/can be doing! (other than trying to recruit teachers)
[02:04] <nhandler> Pendulum: I'm sure we could find some more stuff for you to do ;)
[02:04] <nigelb> I've been working on recruiting people for the packaging training and UOW, App Developer Week, and other sessions when they arise.  I'm also around to help in case of trouble during sessions
[02:04] <cjohnston> I've helped out with ClassBot, helped with UUD.
[02:04] <Pendulum> oh, and I've helped with UUD
[02:04] <Pendulum> nhandler: bring it :P
[02:05] <cjohnston> Help dring sessions when I'm around
[02:05] <nhandler> On this topic, I was thinking recently that it seems we don't have a good list of people involved in the classroom.
[02:05] <nigelb> Well, I think its mostly just the 5 of us?
[02:05] <nhandler> The LP team includes lots of people who are not that active, and it is unclear about who people should contact about different things
[02:06] <nigelb> The wiki could use an update, yes
[02:06] <nhandler> nigelb: Not really. For instance, dholbach is involved in Packaging Training, akgraner and jcastro do some other types of events, etc
[02:06] <cjohnston> I've wanted to clean up the LP list.
[02:06] <nigelb> nhandler: hrm, true
[02:06] <nhandler> cjohnston: Before doing that, we should probably figure out what being a member of the team actually means
[02:07] <nigelb> +1
[02:07] <Pendulum> +1
[02:07] <cjohnston> It's somewhat already defined
[02:07] <cjohnston> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/Volunteer
[02:08] <cjohnston> Could maybe use tweaking, but its a good start
[02:08] <nigelb> Oh, that page needs an update
[02:08] <nhandler> cjohnston: Well, that lists some tasks, and then lists you, me, and pleia2
[02:08] <nigelb> We don't need session helpers anymore
[02:08] <nhandler> I see lots of other people on LP. And the way we have the team memberships (packaging training/uud) setup is a bit confusing
[02:09] <pleia2> I don't even see launchpad as particularly useful to us TBH, except for a management team
[02:09] <pleia2> if we use it as a centralized "contact us" page, sure, but a team? not so much, we don't vote on things, we only have classbot as a collaborative project
[02:10] <pleia2> and classbot isn't even related to the classroom team, it's another project with its own devs
[02:10] <nhandler> pleia2: I agree that the team is not that useful. I think a: "If you need help with foo, contact bar." type page would be better
[02:10]  * pleia2 nods
[02:10] <nhandler> And classbot does have its own project and team on LP
[02:11] <nigelb> We'll need to look at the volunteer page and have more clearly definied activities
[02:12] <pleia2> do we need blueprints/roadmaps? I don't really see this as an evolving team with long term goals really aside from "get more classes, have more events"
[02:12] <nigelb> (they are clear, yes, but perhaps a refresh would be useful, like where we /need/ help)
[02:12] <nhandler> Would someone like to work on driving this membership issue (maybe sending an email to the ML as well)
[02:12] <nigelb> o/
[02:12] <nhandler> pleia2: Don't forget, blueprints are for projects iirc. We have an ubuntu-classroom project in addition to the team
[02:12] <cjohnston> I think blueprints for the "days" and "weeks" just to make sure that everything gets done
[02:12] <nigelb> I could use some help though
[02:12] <nhandler> Awesome nigelb
[02:13] <pleia2> cjohnston: I guess I'm just trying to find a reason for the classroom team existing, if blueprints is one of those reasons
[02:13] <nhandler> I'd volunteer, but looking at the other agenda items makes me think I'll have my hands full
[02:13] <cjohnston> ya
[02:13] <nigelb> heh, true
[02:13] <cjohnston> I understand
[02:13] <nigelb> lets move on then?
[02:13] <nhandler> [ACTION] nigelb to drive the topic of membership
[02:14] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nigelb to drive the topic of membership
[02:14] <nhandler> [TOPIC] ClassBot Status Update
[02:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  ClassBot Status Update
[02:14] <nhandler> ClassBot has seen a lot of changes recently. One of the biggest is that it is now packaged and has a daily ppa
[02:14] <pleia2> \o/
[02:14] <nhandler> Recently, due to some issues, our production server has been updated to use this daily ppa
[02:14] <cjohnston> and translations!
[02:14] <nhandler> Yep :)
[02:15] <nigelb> Great work nhandler and cjohnston :)
[02:15] <nhandler> This latest push has sadly not been as well tested as I would have liked. So during UOW, please keep a close eye out for bugs and other issues and report them against the classbot project
[02:15] <nhandler> In the future, I will try harder to keep the unstable stuff separate (and in its own branch now)
[02:16] <nhandler> As a side note, ClaseBot is also running the same code as ClassBot now. This should allow it to get bug fixes and new features at the same time as ClassBot gets them
[02:16] <pleia2> does -devel have its own ppa?
[02:16] <nigelb> We use the learning events calender now for everything right?
[02:16] <pleia2> currently classroombot (devel) and clasebot are running the same classbot from the same ppa
[02:16] <nhandler> pleia2: I can set that up once I create a devel bzr branch which will happen when I have some untested changes
[02:16] <pleia2> nhandler: great, thanks :)
[02:16] <nhandler> nigelb: Yes
[02:17] <cjohnston> nhandler: can we document where bots are somewhere?
[02:17] <pleia2> nhandler: what about non-english classes re: calendar ?
[02:17] <nhandler> pleia2: I thought devel was running from the bzr branch, not the ppa
[02:17] <nhandler> pleia2: They are using a separate calendar like we decided
[02:17] <cjohnston> And it can be some sort of private documentation if we need
[02:17] <pleia2> nhandler: oh hm, maybe you're right
[02:17] <nhandler> cjohnston: Yeah. We could probably put that on ubuntu-owl or somewhere
[02:18] <nhandler> Or the wiki if there is nothing sensitive
[02:18]  * cjohnston isnt sure he knows what an ubuntu owl is
[02:18] <pleia2> it's the learning website
[02:18] <nigelb> lol
[02:18] <cjohnston> ahh
[02:18] <cjohnston> only reason would be if we put IP addresses or owners or anything
[02:18] <nhandler> Well, we can sort this out later once we have some documentation.
[02:18] <pleia2> yeah :)
[02:19] <nhandler> cjohnston: Any interest in working on that doc?
[02:19] <cjohnston> Umm.. Sure.. Right now theres 3 right? Mine pleia2's and clasebot?
[02:19] <nhandler> cjohnston: clasebot is on pleia2's server as well
[02:19] <cjohnston> ok. .but still three bots
[02:19] <nhandler> cjohnston: Yes
[02:19] <cjohnston> I can do that
[02:19] <nhandler> Great
[02:20] <nhandler> [ACTION] cjohnston to work on documenting where the bots are
[02:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjohnston to work on documenting where the bots are
[02:20] <nhandler> [TOPIC] LoCo Day
[02:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  LoCo Day
[02:20] <nhandler> This is a new type of event that I wanted to try out
[02:21] <nhandler> The main goal is to encourage LoCo teams to start giving more classes in their native languages (and in general)
[02:21] <nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoDays
[02:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoDays
[02:21] <nhandler> I've started some work on the wiki page, and have set a date of November 5th 2010
[02:21] <nhandler> We still need to finalize some details though
[02:22] <nhandler> How long should the event be?
[02:22] <nhandler> I was thinking one day, but then other people suggested making it a weekend long event
[02:22] <pleia2> maybe more like UUD?
[02:23] <pleia2> "weekend long" is tricky for volunteers and doesn't really address time zone issues all that well
[02:23] <nigelb> tricky for us too, since one of us should probably be around to help in case f trouble
[02:23] <nhandler> pleia2: Well, the idea was that this event should not require too much work from volunteers and that making it weekend long would give LoCos more choices in when they could present
[02:23] <cjohnston> And I was thinking that it would provide more opportunities for instructin, and doesn't have to be something that is constant..
[02:24] <pleia2> nigelb: I meant us == volunteers
[02:24] <cjohnston> If its 24 hours and I am not available that day I can't teach the class...
[02:24] <nigelb> pleia2: ah, ok.  we're thinking alike :)
[02:24] <nhandler> cjohnston: But it won't be individuals presenting. It will be LoCo Teams
[02:24] <cjohnston> but if its 48-72 it makes better availablilty
[02:24] <pleia2> cjohnston: yeah, that makes sense
[02:24] <cjohnston> Will still be individuals
[02:24] <nigelb> Also, point to note: Everyone will not be listening to every event.
[02:25] <nhandler> cjohnston: There might be a few, but we should definitely be pushing for teams to be giving the sessions
[02:25] <cjohnston> a team is not something that can present..
[02:25] <nigelb> Since the classes are in differrnt languages, breaks can be okay.
[02:25] <cjohnston> a group of individuals from a team is
[02:25] <cjohnston> is that im getting at
[02:25] <nhandler> cjohnston: That is what I meant ;)
[02:26] <cjohnston> IMO a greater amount of time provides more opportunities for a group of people to be able to make something happen
[02:27] <nhandler> Do you think that having the sessions not being continuous and spread out will take away from the effectiveness of the event in any way?
[02:27] <nigelb> No.
[02:27] <cjohnston> no because if we go from english to spanish to french it will be no different
[02:27] <cjohnston> they will still be spread out
[02:28] <cjohnston> unless your planning on the ability to have enlish and spanish and french at the same time
[02:28] <pleia2> yeah
[02:28] <nhandler> So the only negative to having it spread out is making it difficult for us to find volunteers, right?
[02:28] <cjohnston> volunteers meaning us nhandler ?
[02:28] <nhandler> Yes cjohnston
[02:28] <cjohnston> Well..
[02:28] <pleia2> yeah, that's the only negative
[02:28] <cjohnston> but even still..
[02:28] <pleia2> maybe we can get more volunteers by then :)
[02:28] <nigelb> We can ask folks to help :)
[02:28] <pleia2> and nigelb and Pendulum never sleep, so...
[02:28] <cjohnston> if its 24 hours, theres still still times that are inconvenient
[02:29] <cjohnston> And FWIW, I will be on vacation
[02:29] <nhandler> Well, the only real thing volunteers will be doing for this event will be dealing with problems/missing instructors and answering presenter questions
[02:29] <nigelb> pleia2: haha
[02:29] <cjohnston> :-x
[02:29] <cjohnston> yes
[02:29] <nhandler> We won't need to do intros or process questions
[02:29]  * pleia2 nods
[02:30] <nhandler> I think that we could give a weekend long event a try.
[02:30] <nigelb> Do we have a target? So we can define success?
[02:30] <cjohnston> I think we can even do just 48 hours if you like
[02:30] <cjohnston> I think 24 is too short tho
[02:30] <nhandler> nigelb: A large number of LoCo teams presenting in a large number of languages followed by LoCos continuing to give sessions
[02:31] <nigelb> nhandler: That helps :)
[02:31] <nhandler> cjohnston: Well, we can try Fri-Sun and see what happens. persia was also suggesting something like that iirc
[02:31] <nigelb> yep
[02:31] <nhandler> The other issue we had to finalize was the topic of the sessions.
[02:31] <nigelb> We just have to confirm the time is suitable to the target audience of that language
[02:32] <cjohnston> We are going to have a topic? I was thinking it was gonna be teams pick?
[02:32] <nhandler> So far, the best idea imo was having locos basically talking about how to organize a jam, what to do for conferences, tips and tricks, etc
[02:32] <cjohnston> I dunno
[02:33] <nhandler> cjohnston: We would give a general topic and then teams would choose the specific topic for their session
[02:33] <cjohnston> k
[02:33] <nhandler> Any other ideas for this?
[02:33] <nigelb> How is classbot expected to wrk?
[02:33] <pleia2> I don't think I have an opinion either way content-wise, mostly I just want to see folks of other languages presenting something
[02:33] <nigelb> would we have a language field in the schedule that would make it swtich languages?
[02:34] <cjohnston> +1 pleia2
[02:34] <persia> I was suggesting people present in locally-convenient timezones.  I think attempting to restrict to arbitrary 0:00 - 0:00 UTC timeframes is unfortunate.  Better to just set dates, and let folk pick local times on those days.
[02:34] <cjohnston> who woke up the pleia2
[02:34] <cjohnston> uggh
[02:34] <cjohnston> who woke up the persia
[02:34] <nhandler> nigelb: We could do that. The big issue is, there is no good way to translate the /topic or tell classbot what language to fall back to when none is specified
[02:35] <nhandler> persia never sleeps ;)
[02:35] <nigelb> nhandler: can we just assume english if not specified?
[02:35] <nigelb> cjohnston: Its like afternoon for persia :)
[02:35] <persia> midday or so, today.  Anyway, back to the meeting :p
[02:35] <nhandler> nigelb: That would cause issues with something like ClaseBot which has a default language of spanish ;)
[02:35]  * cjohnston is ready for bed
[02:36] <nigelb> nhandler: yes, each instance would need its 'mothertongue' specified
[02:36] <nhandler> So unless I think of something clever, ClassBot might need to be in english (which isn't terrible)
[02:36] <nigelb> nhandler: calender name or description is possible?
[02:36] <cjohnston> as far as classbot goes, technically only the instructor needs to know how to understand it
[02:36] <nhandler> nigelb: I'll try to work on this, but it will largely depend on my free time
[02:37] <nhandler> cjohnston: Well, people need to know to prefix questions with 'QUESTION:' if it is in english
[02:37] <nigelb> nhandler: sure, no problem.  I just wanted to raise it since it might be important to LoCo Day
[02:37] <cjohnston> instructor can tell them that
[02:37] <nhandler> nigelb: Yep. I've been thinking about that
[02:37] <nhandler> Alright, so I think we have most of the details sorted out. The next step is marketing and recruiting locos
[02:38] <nigelb> cjohnston: keyboards may not have english keys set, for example if its for Chineese or Indian langages.
[02:38] <nhandler> The LC says they are willing to help with that
[02:38] <cjohnston> Mr. Metal and his team as well
[02:38] <nigelb> Another community we could talk to is translators
[02:38] <cjohnston> +1
[02:38] <nhandler> I'll take the action to update the LoCoDay wiki pages based on this discussion and send out an email anouncing the event
[02:39] <pleia2> unfortunately I'm going to be hard-pressed to do my standard classroom tasks now - november, so I can't really help out with this
[02:39] <nigelb> oh, ugh, Nov 5  - hangover after uds
[02:39] <persia> nigelb, at least Chinese/Korean/Japanese keyboards have a way to type in English easily (if the writer knows English).  I suspect that most keyboards are able to control ClassBot.
[02:39] <nhandler> nigelb: It was the best weekend I could find ;)
[02:40] <nigelb> persia: In that case, my point is moot
[02:40]  * nhandler isn't even sure ClassBot has translations for most of those Asian languages
[02:40] <nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to update LoCo Day wiki pages and send out announcement
[02:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to update LoCo Day wiki pages and send out announcement
[02:40] <nhandler> [TOPIC] Classroom wiki pages Update
[02:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Classroom wiki pages Update
[02:40] <nhandler> We touched on this earlier. A lot of our wiki pages are simply out of date
[02:41] <pleia2> yeah, we do this review every year or so, we're due for another overhaul
[02:41] <nhandler> I don't think we have a lot of pages, and most are fairly short. Does someone feel up to driving this task?
[02:42] <pleia2> I can make myself available for answering historical questions (can I delete this? do we still want this process?)
[02:42] <cjohnston> What would y'all think about moving away from the wiki and moving to something like WP..
[02:42] <pleia2> we already have a blog
[02:42] <cjohnston> Provide a lot more flexibility
[02:43] <pleia2> less flexibility, limited editors
[02:43] <cjohnston> Allow embedding of the calendar
[02:43] <nhandler> Having at least our main page on the wiki is also nice for linking to logs and stuff
[02:43] <cjohnston> How many people edit the wiki
[02:43] <cjohnston> and how often does it need to be edited
[02:43] <cjohnston> Logs can be linked from WP
[02:43] <nhandler> cjohnston: The main page has 164 revisions
[02:43] <cjohnston> just a thought
[02:44] <pleia2> we can make ubuntuclassroom.wordpress.com/calendar/ if that's a concern
[02:44] <pleia2> but I like the wiki
[02:44] <nhandler> We have fridge.ubuntu.com/classroom already as well
[02:44] <pleia2> yeah
[02:44] <cjohnston> ok
[02:44] <pleia2> nhandler: maybe we should start linking to the fridge calendar (once the Grand Fridge Migration is done)
[02:44] <pleia2> rather than your people page
[02:45] <nhandler> I think if we try and make ourselves available to answering questions about the pages, we could probably try and recruit people to help update the wiki
[02:45]  * pleia2 nods
[02:45] <Pendulum> I'm happy to drive updating the wiki
[02:45] <nhandler> pleia2: Agreed. I was hoping we would have been migrated by now (which is why I held off on doing the switch)
[02:45] <nhandler> Pendulum: That works too. Thanks a lot
[02:45] <nhandler> [ACTION] Pendulum to drive the Classroom wiki update
[02:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Pendulum to drive the Classroom wiki update
[02:45] <Pendulum> (I was going to volunteer and then cjohnston brought up WP so I was waiting until that got talked out ;-) )
[02:46] <pleia2> thanks Pendulum :)
[02:46] <nhandler> Pendulum: Feel free to try and recruit some new people to help with that as well
[02:46] <pleia2> Pendulum: and nag me any time for historical questions
[02:46] <nhandler> [TOPIC] Lernid Status Update
[02:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lernid Status Update
[02:46] <nhandler> Lernid is currently unmaintained
[02:46] <cjohnston> need devs now that nhandler is on it
[02:46] <nhandler> We got the config file moved to ubuntu-owl (so we can update it)
[02:47] <nigelb> And we got a redirect to ubuntu-owl
[02:47] <nhandler> I am currently working on patching the source to remove the need for the config completely
[02:47] <pleia2> yay
[02:47] <nigelb> \o/
[02:47] <nhandler> Whether or not I succeed in that is to be determined
[02:47] <nhandler> But do we want to continue to recommend lernid with it having open bugs and being unmaintained
[02:48] <pleia2> I'll be honest, I've never really been a big supporter of it
[02:48] <nhandler> It is just as easy imo to provide a webchat.freenode.net link that opens the classroom and -chat
[02:48] <pleia2> I agree
[02:48] <nhandler> The slide feature is the one thing we would really lose, but not many instructors even utilized that
[02:49] <nigelb> Only advantage lernid provides is for user days like events, I'm not sure if its big enough to continue recommending it
[02:49] <pleia2> I don't think I ever managed to get the slide bit of lernid working :)
[02:49] <nigelb> heh
[02:49] <pleia2> it's easy enough to open up the pdf myself
[02:49] <cjohnston> i saw it working
[02:49] <cjohnston> was cool
[02:50] <nhandler> So what should or stance be on it? Should we support it but not recommend it? Or just let it die until a new maintainer shows up?
[02:50] <pleia2> support but not recommend
[02:50] <cjohnston> I think one of the problems is that we dont have enough classes
[02:50] <nhandler> The big issue we will have is for certain events that use the classroom that continue to recommend it
[02:50] <pleia2> but support from me might be "use the webchat" ;)
[02:50] <cjohnston> i think it is currently best suited for uow uadw etc
[02:50] <nigelb> uud
[02:51] <nigelb> nhandler: We can ask akgraner and jcastro to phase it out of the announcements from next cycle if needed
[02:51] <cjohnston> but we have to push instructors towards using it to make it worth pushing students to use it
[02:51] <pleia2> I think we need to talk to the uow and uadw folks about the reality of the software maturity
[02:52] <pleia2> lernid breakage is making things *worse* for newcomers than the webchat would be
[02:52] <nhandler> pleia2: +1. We also need to decide what we want to do about the .lernid file. Should we continue to update it? Or just leave the 'All Classroom Sessions' event and stop updating it for new events
[02:52] <pleia2> nhandler: I think we should continue to update it at least until the end of the year, maybe lernid devs will come back or show up
[02:53] <pleia2> at the end of the year we can re-evaluate, but not now, so close to UOW
[02:53] <cjohnston> nhandler: it should be possible for lernid when it is opened to download the ical and determine from that upcoming events
[02:53] <nhandler> cjohnston: It will if I figure out how to get that working. Right now, I have added a catch-all event that lists all sessions for the year
[02:53] <cjohnston> just like cb
[02:53] <cjohnston> ahh
[02:54] <nhandler> However, if we aren't going to be recommending lernid, I'm not sure how much time/effort I'm going to put into getting that feature working (I'm not a python dev)
[02:55] <nhandler> Would someone like to talk to the UOW, UDW, UUD, etc organizers about lernid and explain our POV
[02:55] <Pendulum> I think all the UUD organizers are here
[02:56] <nigelb> heh
[02:56] <nhandler> Pendulum: Yeah, it is mainly the other events. We could probably fill them in when we talk to them over the course of the week
[02:56] <nigelb> I can do thata
[02:56] <nhandler> Thanks nigelb
[02:56] <pleia2> thanks nigelb :)
[02:57] <nhandler> [ACTION] nigelb to talk to event organizers about our stance of supporting (at least through the end of the year) but not recommending lernid
[02:57] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nigelb to talk to event organizers about our stance of supporting (at least through the end of the year) but not recommending lernid
[02:57] <nhandler> [TOPIC] User Days
[02:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  User Days
[02:57] <nhandler> cjohnston: You're up
[02:57] <cjohnston> Need to start plannign
[02:57] <nhandler> Do we have a date?
[02:57] <cjohnston> nope
[02:58] <nigelb> can we postpone this discussion to after UDS?
[02:58] <nigelb> I think there was a talk of moving app developer week around during last UDS, not sure if that happened this cycle
[02:58] <cjohnston> We had talked about trying to get UUD to be shortly after the release.. but its too late for that I think
[02:59] <nigelb> It is
[03:00] <cjohnston> I don't care.. What ever yall wanna do is fine
[03:00] <nigelb> heh
[03:00] <pleia2> november and december get tricky, maybe push to jan? (but yeah, we can talk about this after UDS when we see the schedule of other events)
[03:00] <cjohnston> thats fine
[03:00] <nhandler> Alright
[03:00] <cjohnston> postpne
[03:00] <nhandler> [AGREED] Postpone UUD discussion until after UDS
[03:00] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Postpone UUD discussion until after UDS
[03:01] <nhandler> [TOPIC] Calendar
[03:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Calendar
[03:01] <nhandler> nigelb: Your turn
[03:01] <cjohnston> uh oh
[03:01] <nigelb> ok, so, I'll probalby need some shields before I suggest this
[03:01] <nigelb> Right now we use the learning events calender for all our events
[03:01] <nigelb> I know it has been a pain to integrate it everywhre, but we've maanged
[03:02] <nigelb> Recently mhall119 and doctormo suggested generating ical on the fly from a webapp
[03:02] <nigelb> I'd like to bring this into consideration since it helps us do more magic like force validation
[03:02] <nhandler> nigelb: The nice thing about using an ical with google calendar is that we can use many different apps to sync with it and edit it
[03:03] <nhandler> For instance, I can add events from my web browser, or from my iPod's calendar app, or even in evolution
[03:03] <nigelb> nhandler: yes, but a webapp can potentiall remove the need to know formatting
[03:03] <cjohnston> I do like the idea of the webapp
[03:03] <nigelb> Again, I'm not forcing the decision, but just something we ought to try
[03:03] <nhandler> nigelb: We could add a webapp that simply adds an event to the existing ical
[03:03] <nigelb> nhandler: that would work too
[03:04] <pleia2> yeah, I'd like that
[03:04] <nhandler> I think I have most of the code handy (from my classbot test suite code I'm working on)
[03:04] <nhandler> pleia2: Does ubuntu-owl support Perl?
[03:04] <nigelb> then we'd just need to host it
[03:05] <cjohnston> host? the site?
[03:05] <cjohnston> I can do that
[03:05] <pleia2> nhandler: it doesn't currently have a cgi-bin, but it can
[03:05] <nhandler> Well, it looks like hosting won't be an issue. I'll start on the script. We can then recruit someone else to beautify it if we want (I don't do css and that stuff)
[03:06] <pleia2> yay :)
[03:06]  * nigelb does
[03:06] <cjohnston> I may be confused..
[03:06] <nigelb> I mean I can do the css stuff a bit
[03:06] <nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to create web application to add events to existing ical
[03:06] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to create web application to add events to existing ical
[03:06] <nhandler> nigelb: Cool
[03:06] <nhandler> nigelb: I'll talk to you once I have a script
[03:06] <nhandler> [TOPIC] Any other topics?
[03:06] <nigelb> great, will do :)
[03:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other topics?
[03:06] <cjohnston> 1 sec
[03:06] <cjohnston> nhandler: i think what mhall119 is talking about is the app he started developing during his django class sessions
[03:07] <cjohnston> https://edge.launchpad.net/classroom-scheduler
[03:08] <nhandler> cjohnston: I haven't looked closely at the code. What other features does that provide?
[03:08] <pleia2> Django is a lot to install for just a form to update an ical :\
[03:08] <cjohnston> I couldn't really tell you what it currently provides.. it can provide anything you want
[03:08] <cjohnston> I think its going to be more than just updating an ical
[03:09] <cjohnston> without mhall119 here to discuss more though, I can't really tell you what all his plans were
[03:09] <nhandler> The nice thing about this simple script is that people who don't want to use it and don't want to change their workflow don't need to. We also wouldn't need to update everything that mentions the ical
[03:09] <pleia2> nhandler: *nod*
[03:09] <nhandler> I *think* his script helped with scheduling or displaying the schedule as well
[03:10] <pleia2> it was *a lot* of work to update everything to our google calendar and get everyone used to that workflow, I really don't want to go through that again (we've gone through multiple incantations of this same process a few times, I was relieved to be settled upon the goog calendar)
[03:10] <cjohnston> prolly
[03:11] <nhandler> I have no issue listening to what mhall119 has to say, but unless he has a pretty good reason to switch, I think I am still in favor of the current ical
[03:11] <nhandler> cjohnston: Do you want to try and talk to him to get an explanation of what his django app has to offer?
[03:11] <cjohnston> I will ask him to send an email to the ML explaining and showing
[03:11] <nhandler> [ACTION cjohnston to talk to mhall119 to have him send an email to the ML explaining his django calendar app
[03:11] <nhandler> [ACTION] cjohnston to talk to mhall119 to have him send an email to the ML explaining his django calendar app
[03:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjohnston to talk to mhall119 to have him send an email to the ML explaining his django calendar app
[03:12] <nhandler> Alright, once again
[03:12] <pleia2> this does bring up a problem we seem to be continuing to have within the community, people keep developing apps to "help classroom" without telling us
[03:12] <nhandler> [TOPIC] Any other Business?
[03:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other Business?
[03:12] <pleia2> how do we fix this?
[03:12] <nhandler> [TOPIC] 3rd party classroom applications
[03:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  3rd party classroom applications
[03:12] <cjohnston> there was an entire week of classroom sessions about this
[03:13] <pleia2> it was a class about django, I didn't realize it was developing an app for classroom
[03:13] <nhandler> pleia2: We could possibly try to document them on the wiki
[03:13] <nigelb> pleia2: a blog post would be nice telling folks to talk to us
[03:13] <nigelb> and yes, wiki documentation
[03:13] <nigelb> if you're an app developer and want to "help", talk to us first
[03:14] <nhandler> nigelb: They don't even need to talk to us first, we would just like to know what they are making so we can provide some input
[03:14] <pleia2> yeah, I hate to see folks put in a lot of effort and promotion of something that ends up not working out (I do feel a bit sad about lernid)
[03:14] <nhandler> Pendulum: Maybe the creation of such a page during the wiki cleanup would be useful
[03:15] <Pendulum> nhandler: I'll add it to the list :)
[03:15] <nhandler> Awesome
[03:16] <nhandler> [ACTION] Pendulum to create page listing classroom-related applications on the wiki
[03:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Pendulum to create page listing classroom-related applications on the wiki
[03:16] <nhandler> Any more topics?
[03:16] <pleia2> I think I'm done
[03:17] <nhandler> cjohnston, nigelb, Pendulum ?
[03:17] <nigelb> none :)
[03:17] <cjohnston> none
[03:17] <pleia2> thanks everyone!
[03:17] <nhandler> Any volunteers for minutes? Otherwise, I'll try to get to them (might not be until Sunday)
[03:18]  * cjohnston goes back to homework
[03:18] <nhandler> Alright...
[03:18] <nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to do minutes
[03:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to do minutes
[03:18] <nigelb> heh
[03:18] <nhandler> Great meeting everyone
[03:18] <pleia2> thanks nhandler :)
[03:18] <nhandler> #endmeeting
[03:18] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:18.
[03:18] <nigelb> thak you nhandler !
[03:22] <mhall119> I'm here
[03:54] <yessy> hola a todo
[13:06] <thorwil> mpt, godbyk: hi!
[13:06] <mpt> hi thorwil
[13:06] <godbyk> Hey, thorwil
[13:07] <thorwil> mgunes
[13:07] <sabdfl> hello everybody
[13:07] <godbyk> Hey, mpt. Did you see the logs of last week's meeting?  (Our little existential crisis.)
[13:07] <mpt> I did not
[13:08] <mpt> I'm reading them now
[13:08] <godbyk> 'kay.
[13:08] <mpt> Sorry I wasn't here last week, I was frantically testing USC
[13:09] <godbyk> Excuses, excuses. :)
[13:09] <thorwil> mpt: no worries, it somehow ended up being the most interesting so far without you ;)
[13:10]  * mpt waves at JanCBorchardt 
[13:11] <mpt> I intended this team as a way to encourage UX activities in Ubuntu generally
[13:11] <thorwil> i tried to "climb up" to see what it should be about on a high level and ended up with: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/266161/
[13:11] <mpt> But far from being a cure to the "meh, it's all too hard" problem, so far it's ended up as an example of it :-)
[13:11] <thorwil> far from finnished
[13:12] <mpt> "Institutionalizing UX", as wers said
[13:12] <JanCBorchardt> hey
[13:13] <godbyk> mpt: I like the 'institutionalizing ux' goal.
[13:13] <godbyk> Hey, JanCBorchardt.
[13:14] <godbyk> thorwil: What am I reading? <http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/266161/>
[13:15] <JanCBorchardt> thorwil, additional issue: developers might bow to "popular demand" on bug reports, even though it might only be for power users
[13:15] <thorwil> godbyk: meant to be some thinking behind what could become a manifesto
[13:15] <godbyk> thorwil: ah, understood.
[13:17] <thorwil> JanCBorchardt: right, added as "- Developers might bow to "popular demand", even though it might only be what the loudest users think they want"
[13:17] <JanCBorchardt> thorwil: yes, and especially with the point that people on mailing lists / bug reports etc are not "the user"
[13:18] <thorwil> godbyk: so i came to the thought that floss needs to be justified from a pure "end"-user pov
[13:18] <JanCBorchardt> might be worth adding as well because it is often forgotten
[13:20] <wers> wassup?
[13:20] <thorwil> hi wers
[13:20] <JanCBorchardt> wers: hey
[13:20] <wers> hello thorwil . sorry was stuck in traffic
[13:20] <wers> hi JanCBorchardt
[13:20] <wers> what did I miss?
[13:21] <godbyk> wers: Not too much. mpt is reading last week's logs. thorwil has some notes on a manifesto.
 i tried to "climb up" to see what it should be about on a high level and ended up with: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/266161/
[13:21] <godbyk> Okay, I just uploaded a couple PDFs to my Dropbox account. What's the easiest way to share them with all of you?
[13:21] <mpt> thorwil, that's good stuff, though I have a theory that calling anything a "manifesto" makes it less likely to affect anything.
[13:21] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: put them in the Public folder and share the public link
[13:21] <mpt> ;-)
[13:21] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: or we could have a shared Ayatana folder, for convenience
[13:22] <thorwil> wers: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/266166/
[13:22] <wers> niiice
[13:23] <thorwil> mpt: yeah, "manifesto" is pompous
[13:23] <godbyk> JanCBorchardt: Okay, I've succeeded in the first part of that.. Where do I go to get the links?
[13:23] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: right-click -> Dropbox -> copy public link ;)
[13:24] <wers> ok. what is this document exactly? mission statement of what?
[13:24] <godbyk> mpt: Yeah, the 'manifesto' bit is rather tongue-in-cheek.
[13:24] <godbyk> JanCBorchardt: cool. thanks.
[13:24] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: but I guess we should have a shared folder anyway. or a sparkleshare repo maybe?
[13:24] <godbyk> Okay, so here are the bits of a couple books that I scanned last weekend for you guys:
[13:24] <godbyk> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5067756/Designing%20From%20Both%20Sides%20of%20the%20Screen.pdf
[13:24] <godbyk> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5067756/Universal%20Principals%20of%20Design.pdf
[13:24] <wers> JanCBorchardt, +1 for sparkleshare repo (though I haven't successfully configured it yet)
[13:24] <thorwil> wers: the umbrella for our activities
[13:25] <godbyk> I haven't had time to play with SS yet, but I like the idea a lot.
[13:25] <wers> thorwil, by "our" you mean Ayatana UX?
[13:25] <thorwil> wers: no, actually 1 or 2 levels up
[13:25] <JanCBorchardt> mpt, thorwil: "writeup"? ;)
[13:26] <wers> thorwil, as in "FOSS Designers" kind of level?
[13:26] <thorwil> JanCBorchardt: hmm?
[13:26] <thorwil> wers: yes
[13:26] <wers> ok
[13:27] <JanCBorchardt> thorwil: instead of manifesto
[13:27] <mpt> That second book I have right next to me
[13:27] <mpt> Universal principles of design
[13:27] <mpt> It's excellent
[13:28] <godbyk> mpt: Yeah, I scanned the TOC of that book since you'd brought it up in our earlier conversations.
[13:28] <thorwil> JanCBorchardt: oh, sure. or "central piece of drivel"
[13:29] <godbyk> There are more principles and whatnot scattered through a lot of the other books I have, but those two had theirs listed in once place, so it took less effort on my part to scan them. :)
[13:31] <JanCBorchardt> we have us a nice new sparkly repository: http://gitorious.org/ayatana-ux
[13:32] <wers> JanCBorchardt, great
[13:32] <JanCBorchardt> feel free to throw your gitorious names at me so I can add you as collaborators
[13:33] <JanCBorchardt> I'm at work right now, being busy and all ;)
[13:34] <godbyk> JanCBorchardt: I just signed up: godbyk.
[13:36] <wers> mpt, what can you say about the issues raised last week?
[13:37] <godbyk> One of the reasons I haven't emailed the group yet is that I wanted to look at the latest KDE and GNOME HIGs.
[13:37] <mpt> still reading
[13:37] <godbyk> I've only had time to glance through them so far.
[13:37] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: you're in
[13:37] <godbyk> I do like the patterns work in GNOME HIG 3.
[13:37] <godbyk> But I'd like to see some discussion of the design *process*, too.
[13:37] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: feel free to upload the pdfs there (if that's legal ;)
[13:37] <godbyk> JanCBorchardt: cool. thanks!
[13:38] <wers> godbyk, you haven't emailed what yet? you mean, the pdfs?
[13:38] <thorwil> JanCBorchardt: surprise surprise, i'm "thorwil" on gitorious
[13:39] <godbyk> wers: The PDFs, yeah. (I just shared those through Dropbox, however). And I was going to write a better summary proposal that addressed some of the issues/questions raised last week.
[13:39] <mpt> wers, there are plenty of books about how to make software with great UX. We wouldn't gain much by writing another one. What there isn't, afaik, is advice on overcoming the problems specific to (a) distributed development and (b) volunteer development.
[13:39] <JanCBorchardt> thorwil: already found you ;)
[13:39] <thorwil> godbyk: what's the question there? briefing, research, conception, design, implementation, testing, deployment ... all iterative
[13:40] <wers> mpt, I agree
[13:40] <JanCBorchardt> mpt, wers, do you have gitorious accounts?
[13:40] <mpt> I don't
[13:40] <wers> we can refer to Roshanak's study when she's done
[13:40] <wers> JanCBorchardt, I'll make one
[13:41] <thorwil> mpt: agree partially, though one could wonder why developers apparently don't read those books
[13:41] <godbyk> thorwil: Do you carry that litany in your pocket or something? :-)
[13:41] <thorwil> lol
[13:41] <godbyk> There's also the issue of figuring out which book(s) one should take the time to read.
[13:43] <thorwil> godbyk: what industrial designers are taught regarding design methods looks quite a lot like the models found in software development. just a few steps that depend on the field
[13:44] <mpt> thorwil, that problem is one of (b). :-)
[13:44] <godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, the basic process is pretty much the same across fields. (Though it seems to be re-articulated a lot.)
[13:45] <thorwil> godbyk: if i ruled the world, a generic take of it would be taught in secondary schools. as methodic problem solving :)
[13:45] <godbyk> thorwil: If only.  :-)
[13:51] <thorwil> there was a very recent attempt to define a vision/direction over in fedora land. most productive irc session i ever skimmed. the conclusion was "THIS IS NOT WORTH MY TIME AND EFFORT". http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-advisory-board/2010-09-22/fedora_20_visioneering.2010-09-22-20.19.log.html
[13:52] <thorwil> so a failure at the briefing stage. of a project running since long :)
[13:52] <godbyk> nice
[13:55] <mpt> wow
[13:56] <godbyk> mpt: just finish reading?
[13:56] <thorwil> error: "wow" lacks clear context
[13:58] <mpt> That's all so depressing
[13:58] <mpt> That IRC log
[13:58] <mpt> Fedora's, not ours :-)
[13:59] <godbyk> mpt: heh. I was gonna say, I didn't think out meeting last week was *that* bad. :-)
[14:10] <sabdfl> let's not get tribal
[14:10] <godbyk> sabdfl: Was that suggested somewhere?
[14:11] <thorwil> sabdfl: in case it's not clear, that was not meant as a "ha ha, look at them", but rather just an example how things can go and what we might be up against
[14:12] <thorwil> i see mizmo as someone pulling in a similar direction as i do (or would like to do), she just chose a different party
[14:13]  * thorwil -> coffee
[14:15] <wers> JanCBorchardt, any update on the usability lab?
[14:16] <wers> I think, that project will attract designers to use a free desktop. if that happens, we'll likely have more UX contributors
[14:16] <JanCBorchardt> wers: unfortunately not, tangled up in work as of late
[14:16] <JanCBorchardt> but the Shotwell report is finished and published soon
[14:17] <wers> I've seen one. Nick Fine from UX Exchange (he hasn't always been into FOSS, afaik) is trying to join Ayatana UX on Launchpad
[14:18] <wers> JanCBorchardt, that's cool. slowly but surely
[14:20] <wers> check this out too http://uxexchange.com/questions/3908/suggestions-for-an-inexpensive-usability-lab/3911#3911
[14:20] <JanCBorchardt> wers: ping me as soon as you have a gitorious account
[14:22] <JanCBorchardt> wers: nice going :)
[14:23] <wers> JanCBorchardt, it used to have more votes. my theory is makers of proprietary usability testing apps are voting it down
[14:23] <JanCBorchardt> wers: wow, thats really nasty
[14:24] <wers> that's just a theory, but my point is, designers are that desperate for a free usability testing app
[14:26] <wers> JanCBorchardt, allancaeg on gitorous
[14:27] <wers> JanCBorchardt, it's not a baseless theory, btw. those are my only down votes in the site(afaik) and I'm currently the top 3 contributor
[14:27] <JanCBorchardt> wers: you're in
[14:28] <JanCBorchardt> wers: well, we can't have everyone to like open source :)
[14:28] <wers> yep, especially if its bad for their business ;)
[14:29] <JanCBorchardt> wers: as long as it remains the top answer it's their loss ;)
[14:30] <wers> JanCBorchardt, haha. yeah :D
[14:39] <JanCBorchardt> just read the fedora log
[14:40] <JanCBorchardt> really sad but true
[14:40] <JanCBorchardt> but it is in apps like Gwibber where the power of the desktop vs the wild web is really showing
[14:41] <wers> just read it now too
[14:41] <wers> which makes me ask...
[14:41] <wers> do we have personas for Ubuntu?
[14:43] <wers> I see some usability testing going on here http://design.canonical.com/the-research/
[14:43] <wers> I suppose, the participants represent the personas
[14:44] <JanCBorchardt> you need a vision rather than personas
[14:44] <wers> vision + personas
[14:45] <wers> UCD can't be done without defining the user first
[14:47] <wers> hbons started the discussion for GNOME's personas. unfortunately, it's far from done
[14:48] <wers> and it's not based on actual research. simply on views of the people involved in defining them (personas)
[14:48] <wers> it was stated earlier that one problem is we're centered on devs scratching their own itches. we need to define first whose itches are we going to scratch
[14:49] <godbyk> wers: I agree.
[14:50] <JanCBorchardt> wers: yes, the problem with personas is that they are often thought up out of the blue
[14:50] <wers> JanCBorchardt, that's right. personas are anti-UCD whenever they're inaccurate. we need hard data. we need research
[14:51] <wers> or else, we'll end up doing usability testing on people who don't use Ubuntu... or limited to a subset of people who use Ubuntu
[14:55] <wers> ok so do we have an action item here (defining Ubuntu's personas) or do we already have personas that I don't know about?
[14:55] <wers> mpt?
[14:56] <mpt> wers, I'm going to talk with charline about that
[14:56] <wers> cool
[14:56] <mpt> She has lots of information on our users, I'm not sure if it's data as such
[14:57] <godbyk> mpt: Are there any standard personas that are used consistently?  For a lot of the specs it seems that a new 'persona' is tailor-created just to illustrate a particular point.
[14:58] <wers> mpt, ok. we actually have a personas document at work. it was done by 3 organizations and Human Factors International was one of them. It was done in a span of 3 months. it's worth the investment though. I just don't think I can share the document here. hehe
[14:59] <mpt> godbyk, that's exactly right, they're made up ad hoc
[15:03] <wers> I invite you to read http://www.jjg.net/elements/pdf/elements.pdf
[15:04] <wers> it shows there that the first step is to define business and user goals. user goals are defined by personas and stuff like that
[15:05] <godbyk> Right.
[15:05] <wers> here's a longer version http://www.adaptivepath.com/events/workshops/businessofux/elements0803.pdf they're Adaptive Path's UX workshop slides
[15:06] <godbyk> You can also buy his book.
[15:06] <wers> godbyk, ah yes. haha
[15:07] <wers> I got stuck in the free stuff. what can I do? Google scholar is giving some of 'em away. hehe
[15:08] <godbyk> I'm with you there. :)
[15:09] <wers> godbyk, but if amazon shipping was more accessible and affordable for me, I'd also go for the book ;)
[15:10] <godbyk> wers: Since I have a .edu email address, I signed up for a free year of Amazon Prime (which means I get free two-day shipping).
[15:10] <wers> godbyk, nice
[15:10] <godbyk> wers: They make it entirely too easy for me to give them my money.
[15:11] <wers> haha :D good for you. as for me, Amazon shipping is either unavailable or too expensive
[16:06] <Javier_> Buen día alguien me puede colaborar con una consulta respecto a ubuntu 9.1 y adsl
[16:24] <chrisccoulson> !es | Javier_
[20:16] <bcurtiswx_> AlanBell, I was told to ping you about acquiring mootbot?
[20:16] <AlanBell> hi bcurtiswx_
[20:16] <bcurtiswx_> hi AlanBell
[20:17] <bcurtiswx_> it would be for #ubuntu-bugs
[20:17] <AlanBell> I can send my development bot over to you, which channel?
[20:17] <bcurtiswx_> we have meetings every 2nd tuesday
[20:17] <AlanBell> generally teams like that have meetings in this channel
[20:18] <bcurtiswx_> we've always held it in our channel
[20:19]  * bcurtiswx_ shrugs, would it benefit to have it here instead?
[20:21] <bcurtiswx_> AlanBell, ^^
[20:22] <AlanBell> sorry, got called away
[20:23] <AlanBell> the theory is that having teams like that meeting here means that people idling here can see the meetings happening
[20:23] <AlanBell> loco teams meet in their own channels because there are oodles of them
[20:23] <AlanBell> and some teams meet in their own channels because they feel like it
[20:24] <AlanBell> as you already meet in your own channel I will send the bot in . . .
[22:37] <chikilis> buenas tardes, sera que me pueden ayudar, por q al convertir un video a otro formato me vaja la resolucion con (ffmpeg -i vudeo  video.avi)
[22:38] <chikilis> queda muy pixelado
[22:38] <SergioMeneses> chikilis: go to #ubuntu-es