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robbiewpsurbhi: missed you in mumble16:00
* mvo needs some seconds to finish his lighting summary thing for the week, gtimelog for the rescue16:03
cjwatsonI normally use my =ubuntu/uploads folder :-)16:04
robbiewhmm...no doko16:04
robbiewanyway...let's get this bad boy up and running16:04
mvoI /msged him16:04
MootBotMeeting started at 10:04. The chair is robbiew.16:04
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:04
cjwatsonand scare myself with the way I've apparently made rather more than 6000 uploads to Ubuntu ever ...16:04
robbiew[TOPIC] Lightning Round16:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Lightning Round16:05
doko_nobody missed me in mumble ...16:05
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Keybukdoko: who are you?16:05
robbiewokay....who's first.....psurbhi?16:06
dokoKeybuk: doesn't help to deny me, I'll win settlers anyway ;)16:06
psurbhi1) Last week, working on fixing bugs in autoassembly. found out that initramfs needs to set the hostname for the root array autoassembly to work. Working on a few more bugs that i can see while testing auto assembly of arrays.16:07
psurbhi2) also worked on bug 503790 (pending kernel patch rewrite)16:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 503790 in linux (Ubuntu) "Copy to USB thumbdrive doesn't work" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/50379016:07
doko* componenent-mismatches and NBS cleanup, ongoing16:08
doko* some ARM fixes (mostly needed for archive cleanup)16:08
doko* OOo update16:08
doko* llvm updates16:08
dokoand still filing rc bug reports for build failures ...16:08
Keybuk- upstart: method of queuing start/stop requests for a job didn't work out, gone back to the drawing board on that one16:09
Keybuk- negation didn't work out either as a result "while not apache"16:09
Keybuk- some UDS planning calls16:09
Keybuk- my canonical.com e-mail doesn't work, nobody is noticing because I rarely reply to it anyway apparently16:09
dokoKeybuk: please could you have a look at http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~lucas/ubuntu-nbs/32/upstart_0.6.6-3_lubuntu32.buildlog16:10
Keybukthe test failed16:10
Keybuk(null): Failed to spawn test main process: unable to set priority: Permission denied16:10
Keybukclearly the build environment is not a Linux machine16:11
cjwatsoncould be a fakeroot bug?  setpriority requires CAP_SYS_NICE16:11
Keybukthat's actually just nice()16:11
cjwatsonwell, nice does too16:12
Keybukbut yes, could be a bug in a wrapper, or a bug in a vm, etc.16:12
Keybukthis works under fakeroot on the buildds though16:12
robbiewokay...moving on :)16:13
cjwatsondone: consolekit VT activation fixes, awaiting test feedback; uploaded Windows interop fix for grub2; finished /lib/init/rw symlink migration; helping doko with archive catchup; finally managed to reproduce and fix bug 569900 (not quite as evil conditions as the "will not print on Tuesday" bug, but getting there)16:13
Keybuk(a quick check shows me this package built ok on LP - so whatever ubuntu-nbs is using mustn't be compatible)16:13
ubottuLaunchpad bug 569900 in partman-base (Ubuntu Maverick) "partman sometimes creates partitions such that there is ambiguity between whether the superblock is on the disk device or the partition device" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/56990016:13
cjwatsontodo: dmraid testing to make sure it hasn't all gone horribly wrong; hassle people with problems to test consolekit fix; more out-of-date/NBS work; release! (nearly)16:13
cjwatson(anything I've forgotten?)16:13
barrypython issues 9916 (errno) and 9807 (build flags in config paths), triaged bug 646701 (pysqlite); udd stakeholders meeting, uds planning, bug 609186; debugged and filed bug 649927, helped with some launchpad mailing list issues; (done)16:14
ubottuLaunchpad bug 646701 in python-sqlite (Ubuntu) "package python-sqlite (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: cannot access archive: No such file or directory" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/64670116:14
ubottuLaunchpad bug 609186 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Really easy branching of Ubuntu packages" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/60918616:14
ubottuLaunchpad bug 649927 in Launchpad itself "merge proposal emails Bcc'd to forged To address" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/64992716:14
dokobarry: we really should demote sqlite after maverick ...16:15
barryoh and lots of insanity with fglrx :(16:15
barrydoko: why?16:15
dokobarry: we try to minimize the versions in main (and we have sqlite3 for ages)16:16
barrydoko: oh, i see.  not demote sqlite3 :)  yeah, +116:16
robbiewmoving on...16:17
mvoapp-install/command-not-found updates;natty planning calls;some sponsoring;python-apt;install and upgrade testin;lots of software-center work, fixes in buy-something, scalability fixes (proper etag use), add ricks-wallpapers to the purchase; (done)16:17
robbiewand ev is awol16:18
Keybuktold you, Mark fired him16:18
robbiew[TOPIC] AOB/Good News16:18
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB/Good News16:18
Keybuksorry, that should have waited for the Good News16:19
robbiewfigure with 10.10 so close...we can keep this short ;)16:19
barrybadump dump16:19
robbiewI sent out the request for 11.04 ideas16:19
robbiewI'll be going through deferred blueprints as well16:19
barryrobbiew: you got my response?16:19
robbiewif I miss one you want...let me know16:19
robbiewbarry: yep, thnx16:19
robbiewGood News: James Hunt has signed his contract...he's ours now....uuahahahahahahahhaaaaa!16:20
barryrock!  so he'll be @ uds?16:20
* doko throws glibc at him16:20
cjwatsonfirst day of UDS will be his first day16:20
robbiewhe may stop by the office during the release sprint...not sure yet16:21
cjwatsonAOB: archive admins (and for that matter others), could use help with NBS, out-of-date builds, FTBFS, and that kind of archive consistency stuff16:21
Keybukcjwatson: does James have any nickname he's particularly fond of using?16:21
cjwatsonI have no idea.  That sounds like a loaded question :)16:22
cjwatsonoh don't even go there :)16:22
barrycjwatson: what's the best way to pick off things to work on?16:22
cjwatsoncoordinate on #ubuntu-release.  doko and I have both been working through http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/16:23
dokobarry: I'm filing bug reports for the ftbfs, targeted to maverick, severity high16:23
barrycjwatson, doko +116:23
cjwatsonhttp://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ too16:24
MootBotLINK received:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ too16:24
cjwatsonwhich actually has a really useful layout now, useful mouseover text and the like16:24
cjwatsonit's mostly universe at this point, but needs a push16:24
barrycool. i'll look at some of those16:25
cjwatsondoko: best milestone them for ubuntu-10.10 as well (if you aren't already)16:25
dokoalready done16:25
* cjwatson nods16:25
cjwatsonso I'm using https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+bugs?field.milestone=2746216:25
dokoand http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_ftbfs.cgi   but the ones in main are already triaged16:26
cjwatsonoh, does anyone actually have a machine that suffers from bug 641259?16:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 641259 in grub2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "grub does not appear to load after maverick post-beta install" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/64125916:26
cjwatsondebugging it with remote hands who don't really know their way around the boot loader is likely to be really really difficult16:26
cjwatsonit could use a local developer16:26
barrycjwatson: i looked at that one, and i don't16:26
mvocjwatson: if you could later have a quick look at bug #650525, it appears its a livefs build issues, i.e. the key is not on the livefs16:27
ubottuLaunchpad bug 650525 in ubuntu-extras-keyring (Ubuntu) "Failed to fetch http://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/maverick/Release ; missing key" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/65052516:27
mvocjwatson: a idea would be welcome, maybe its simply a ordering issue16:27
robbiewok...guess that's it16:30
cjwatsonvery odd indeed, no obvious sign of the problem from the build log16:30
cjwatsonbut I can reproduce it tooo16:30
cjwatsonbut yeah, no more business here16:31
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:31.16:31
robbiew;)...thnx all16:31
barryrobbiew: that is a classic16:32
mvohaha, saw it for the first time16:33
psurbhicool one!16:34
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* stgraber looks around for Edubuntuers20:02
* dinda is here20:02
stgraberping mgariepy, highvoltage, mhall119, ...20:03
stgraberI believe highvoltage is finishing an e-mail containing most of what we want to discuss/implement for Natty and that we'd like to discuss today20:03
highvoltagestgraber: I'm still busy with that e-mail, it's going to be a long one, I hope not too long :)20:09
mhall119there he is20:09
mhall119man of the hour20:09
highvoltageheh :)20:09
mhall119well, man of the 55 minutes remaining anyway20:09
highvoltageI don't know if you saw, but we got featured on OMG!Ubuntu! - http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/09/edubuntu-10-10-boasts-many-surprises/20:10
highvoltagemeeting agenda is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda - which still says 15 September 2010, which just shows you how busy we have been :)20:11
mhall119I didn't, but yay20:11
* highvoltage updates20:11
highvoltagedinda: any updates on your education assignment? I've been wondering how that's going20:11
dindait's going well!20:12
dindain the midst of editing lots of PDF data sheets for the ubuntu website as we speak20:12
highvoltageI added a link to the wiki page you started on the edubuntu blog: http://edubuntu.org/2010-09-26/growing-list-schools-using-ubuntu20:12
mhall119dinda: Michelle brought an OLPC to our school's steering committee meeting, got everyone's interest20:12
highvoltagedinda: if you want access to the site to write your own blog entries, please let me know20:12
dindaaimed at various target audiences:  students, school decision makers, etc20:13
highvoltageit kind of feels silly that all the entries on that blog so far is written by me, we need to fix that :)20:13
dindahighvoltage: that would be great!20:13
mhall119dinda: does it have anything for school IT managers/admins?20:13
dindamhall119: yeah, I'm playing with my Dell mini 9 right now, trying to get it updated and then going to add edubuntu20:13
dindamhall119: yes, i'm trying to figure out how they make their decisions, what info they need to know about ubuntu20:14
dindaI'm finding that most are familiar with open source, though not many with Ubuntu20:14
highvoltageabout the e-mail stgraber was talking about earlier, there's a thread on the ubuntu-devel mailing list about tracks at UDS and sessions that will be planned20:14
mhall119dinda: there's probably a perception that it's for hobbyists too20:15
highvoltageI'm starting a new thread there about Edubuntu, why it exists, our plans and what we'd need to discuss at UDS20:15
highvoltagecurrently, we have enough ideas and plans to fill up at least 3-4 releases20:16
dindahighvoltage: that's something I was asked last week. . . why edubuntu?20:16
dindadoes it really require it's own derivative?20:16
dindaor is the add-on the way to go?20:16
highvoltageso it kind of boils down to what the best order is to implement them, what the most important features are, what can actually be implemented in 6 months, and what we should start working on now for natty+1 already20:16
highvoltagedinda: those are all great and valid questions, and I attempt to answer exactly that in that email20:17
dindahighvoltage: great, b/c I've got about a week to try to make the argument for continued funding for education20:18
highvoltagedinda: well, as you know, edubuntu maintains (or at least tries to) get the latest and greatest educational stuff into ubuntu, and then maintain it there20:18
mhall119dinda: I'd point out that edubuntu > edubuntu.iso20:18
mhall119the team also maintains most of the education packages that go into the repos20:19
highvoltageso the question is, why put it on another iso if you can just install and configure everything in ubuntu, because that is after all where all our work happens20:19
highvoltagedinda: in 2003, I got involved with a volunteer organisation that implemented linux labs in schools20:19
highvoltagedinda: at the time, we installed K12-LTSP, which was basically Red Hat 9 + LTSP 4.1 preconfigured. it was great because we could show a teacher who had very little technical knowledge how to get a whole computer lab of 20 to 30 computers working in less than an hour20:20
mhall119dinda: same reason why Kubuntu, Xubuntu, MythBuntu and Ubuntu Studio all have their own ISOs, it reduces the difficulty of getting to where you already know you want to get20:21
dindaI think the iso makes it much easier to implement20:21
highvoltageit also boosted the confidence of the teacher(s) who maintained the lab, because he/she knew that even if the biggest thing could go wrong, they knew how to re-install (and later on, restore from backups :) )20:21
mhall119same reason Ubuntu exists, really, when Debian had all the packages20:21
highvoltagedinda: so that turn-key factor becomes very, very important in primary and high schools. even for home computer to a large degree20:21
highvoltagedinda: exactly!20:22
dindaright now I'm planning a training for some local teachers and I have a stack of Ubuntu CDs but really need to show them the educational-desktop. . .20:22
dindaso I'm thinking of instead creating a stack of edubuntu live CDs or perhaps using USB drives20:22
highvoltageuniversities we care a bout a little, but not so much since universities typically has lots of money and enough IT resources on-site to implement Ubuntu and install everything else manually20:22
highvoltagedinda: that is indeed another reason to have the Edubuntu DVD. It's also why people requested LTSP live so much a few releases back20:23
highvoltageback to plans for natty (while still staying on this subject)20:23
highvoltagethe edubuntu dvd is currently quite flawed in how we actually install packages and the stuff we ship with20:24
highvoltagebasically, besides unity and ltsp, we just install *everything*20:24
mhall119all the ubuntu-edu-* packages you mean?20:24
highvoltagethis makes the install a bit bigger and slower than it needs to be, but also pushes up our system requirements, especially for home users20:24
highvoltagemhall119: and a bit more...20:24
stgrabermhall119: not only20:24
highvoltagefor example, nanny and italc gets installed by default20:25
stgrabermhall119: atomix, edubuntu-artwork, edubuntu-docs, edubuntu-menueditor, gimp, gnome-icon-theme-gartoon, gobby, italc-client, khelpcenter4, kolourpaint4, liferea, nanny, pessulus, sabayon, scribus, ubuntu-edu-preschool, ubuntu-edu-primary, ubuntu-edu-secondary, ubuntu-edu-tertiary, xaos20:25
mhall119but still edubuntu-related stuff20:25
highvoltagethey run more services that pushes our system requirements up quite a bit. installing edubuntu from the live session currently requires about 1GB of RAM :(20:25
dindaand I noticed some overlap in the primary/secondary sets but i assume an app only gets installed once20:26
mhall119I know there is a lot of Edubuntu tied up with Gnome, but is there any thought to moving towards a lighter desktop like Xfce or LXDE?20:26
highvoltageone way we could improve this is by doing some more work in the installer, so that users could better choose exactly what they want. Perhaps we should split it into profiles, so that users could choose between "Home Computer", "Primary School", "Secondary School", "Library", "NGO", etc and that would install the appropriate packages20:27
mhall119dinda: yes, only once20:27
highvoltage(I'm not sure about that, but that's something to discuss at a UDS)20:27
highvoltageor perhaps they should simply be presented with a list of options and then tick of what they want20:27
dindadefinitely a UDS topic20:27
mhall119highvoltage: the ubiquity functionality to choose to install restricted extras might serve that purpose20:28
highvoltagestgraber's installer work for maverick can definitely help with implementing that from a technical perspective: https://stgraber.org/2010/09/10/edubuntu-gets-new-installer20:28
dindaall the sys admins I'm talking to are asking for more control over what gets installed20:28
persiahighvoltage, Graphical tasksel interface for ubiquity sort-of-thing?20:28
dindaand what gets hidden or not installed as well20:28
highvoltagepersia: exactly, that is exactly what stgraber and I were saying IRL probably while you typed that :)20:28
dindahow is the testing on Maverick going?20:29
highvoltagepersia: edubuntu actually had tasks before in d-i, but we lost that moving to Ubiquity20:29
* persia remembers but thinks ubiquity is prettier :)20:29
highvoltagedinda: Edubuntu 10.10 is great so far, it was pretty much the first system to past the tests on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/20:29
highvoltagedinda: so testing has been good20:30
dindagood work team!20:30
stgraberwe just need to write the release anouncement+notes for RC and we'll be good to go (unless there's a general respin)20:30
highvoltageeudbuntu amd64 UPGRADE still needs to be tested, I believe it's on stgraber's todo list ;)20:31
highvoltagestgraber: ah, there's a file we need changed on the DVD (outside of squashfs) so that the release notes button in ubituity points to our release notes url20:31
stgraberpersia: yep, having a ubiquity step that'd let you choose which tasks you want from a given list (I don't want the same ugly list we have in d-i) is probably what I'd like to implement/see implemented20:31
* highvoltage makes note of that again20:31
highvoltagedinda: I hope that my explenation at least partially answered 'why edubuntu?'20:32
* persia would be interested in such a UDS session as a general component addition for use in other flavours as well20:33
dindahighvoltage: it does, I mean it makes sense to me but the concern is that it was somehow taking resources (contributors) from Ubuntu20:33
highvoltagedinda: if we can get the flexibility + usability right, it could be a great system for *any* educational environment20:33
highvoltagedinda: heh, who had *that* concern?20:33
persiaConsidering that Edubuntu is part of the Ubuntu project, it's a bit of an odd concern20:33
highvoltagedinda: if anything, edubuntu ads to and enriches the ubuntu ecosystem20:34
dindabut the argument that the edubuntu team maintains all those packages is a good one20:34
persiaIf Edubuntu was a derivative, I can see it, but it's a fully-qualified flavour.20:34
mhall119it's a bit like saying your arm is drawing resources from your body20:34
highvoltageyeah, not only that, but we also work with some upstreams to make collaboration with ubuntu better. if it wasn't for edubuntu, other people, like MOTUs and core-devs would have more work20:34
dindahighvoltage: good point20:35
mhall119also there'd be no Qimo packages in Universe20:35
mhall119because I know that'll make all the difference in the world....20:35
persiaUm, many Edubuntu uploaders *are* MOTUs and core-devs.  these are not exclusive sets.20:35
dindamhall119: :)20:36
highvoltageone of the other long-term things we should think about is server apps. we've been doing that, but we probably need a better long term plan. (things such as moodle, schooltool, etc)20:36
dindahighvoltage: yes, that's a project I'm trying to get some backing for20:36
highvoltageI think an edubuntu-server (for lack of better name) metapackage would be a nice add-on for ubuntu-server20:36
mhall119dinda: think of Edubuntu like the artwork team, nobody is concerned that they are taking resources away from ubuntu development20:36
highvoltageit probably doesn't need to be a der^H^H^H flavour of it's own20:36
dindaif we can get a solid school server bundle, it would interest some OEMs20:37
mhall119it would be nice if there was a turn-key server solution from Ubuntu that provided OpenLDAP+Samba+Email+whatever all integrated together20:37
mhall119then edubuntu-server could build off that20:37
highvoltagedinda: I can imagine, selling a server with a bunch of computers can boost their income quite a bit :)20:37
persiahighvoltage, You might consider following the practice of Kubuntu: one flavour, many faces (sometimes on a single image, sometimes on other images)20:37
dindamhall119: I think even more importantly the Edubuntu team has taken over the upkeep of all this software. . .20:37
mhall119from what I've seen, the LTSP stuff has been mostly edubuntu driven20:37
persiadinda, I think most of it has always been maintained by the Edubuntu team (since there was one)20:38
highvoltagepersia: indeed. we want to avoid having as many images as Kubuntu though, for the simple reason that it becomes a lot to test. Testing already takes up a lot of our time :)20:38
dindathe other big confusion I hear from alot of folks is that "Edubuntu is just for primary grades"  young kids20:38
persiahighvoltage, heh.  Of course :)20:39
highvoltagemhall119: technicall ltsp falls under the server team. so the work that stgraber and als myself have done there would probably fall under server team work. we just happen to be edubuntu contributors as well :)20:39
highvoltage(and happen to know that ltsp works great in education :) )20:39
persiaLTSP has moved around a bit: didn't used to be in -server20:39
mhall119highvoltage: if not for being edubuntu contributors, would you be working on LTSP for the server team?20:39
dindayip, I suspect this UDS we'll see even more LTSP discussion in the server track20:39
highvoltagedinda: that's pretty much the same as people saying "ubuntu is just great for desktops". just because ubuntu is a great desktop system, they assume that it's all that it's good for. (which is of course not true)20:40
mhall119there was talk about doing an LTSP demo wasn't there?20:40
dindaltsp or general thin client solutions are being requested more and more20:40
dindahighvoltage: I think some of it is just marketing. . .20:40
highvoltagedinda: we happen to have great primary school packages, better than for older ages, for sure. maybe makign it optional and not have it installed by default could help shape that perception20:40
highvoltagedinda: I think it's natural of people to assume that "it's just for small kids" when there's lots of stuff for small kids installed20:41
mhall119I'd rather change perceptions through information, rather than removing the functionality that it's already known for20:42
* highvoltage realises that he's been blabbering for >30mins!20:43
highvoltageat least we don't have that much left to do for maverick, so we can be more chatty :)20:43
highvoltageour remaining to do list, the way I see it, is as follows:20:43
stgraberpersia: technically it's on -alternate because it's the only image where we have the .debs for all of the desktop. It just wasn't possible to include it on -server20:43
highvoltage* stgraber to test amd64 lucid -> maverick upgrade20:44
highvoltage* edubuntu release notes and release announcement20:44
highvoltage* fix link on cd to release notes page20:44
highvoltage* finish installation guide20:44
persiastgraber, Ah, that makes more sense.  I didn't remember seeing it in the -server set.20:44
highvoltagenot sure if I talked about the installation guide before here, I started working on an installation guide, you can preview it here so long: http://edubuntu.org/documentation/10.10/installation-guide20:45
highvoltageis there something I left out on our todo list?20:45
highvoltage(well, for maverick at leasT)20:46
stgraberseems like about it20:47
stgraberwe still need to write blueprints for natty but that can still happen post-release20:47
highvoltagedinda: I think it's great when we get to ask and answer the 'why edubuntu' kind of questions, I'd like to get that up on the website as well20:47
mhall119highvoltage: as 2 answers: Why Edubuntu images and why Edubuntu project20:49
dindainstallation guide looks nice20:49
highvoltagemhall119: *nod*20:49
mhall119or, what Edubuntu gives to schools, and what Edubuntu gives to Ubuntu20:50
mhall119to be a bit more clear20:50
dindamhall119: was just thinking of that last bit20:50
highvoltagethat's also a nice way to look at it20:50
* highvoltage wonders if it's a good idea to start talking about potential natty features with 8 minutes left in the meeting20:50
mhall119is there anyone scheduled for the next hour?20:51
highvoltagemhall119: QA team in a bit more than an hour20:51
highvoltage(if google calender is to be believed)20:51
mhall119then we've got time20:52
stgrabernope, QA is currently and in #ubuntu-qa ;)20:52
stgraberso no conflict there20:52
persiaIn #ubuntu-quality !20:52
highvoltageok, here's some ideas that I'm just going to dump, it's probably not a complete list even, but I've collated some of my and stgraber's ideas so that we can post it to the ubuntu-devel list and have some sessions organised20:52
persia#ubuntu-qa belongs to the Qatar LoCo team (when they come to exist)20:52
stgraberpersia: oh right, we renamed it to #ubuntu-quality ;)20:53
stgraberpersia: it's the ML that's still wrong20:53
mhall119highvoltage: is there a wiki for this list yet? or are we going straight to blueprints?20:53
highvoltageand yet the mailing list is ubuntu-qa! I ended up sending a mail to ubuntu-qa when I meant to send a mail to ubuntu-cq (which is actually ubuntu-quebec!)20:53
persiastgraber, Right.20:53
highvoltagemhall119: it's a tomboy note on my computer, it will be an email and wiki page some time after this meeting :)20:54
mhall119with one.u.c would let you share notes20:54
highvoltageI'll start with meta and packages since it's kind of the easy part20:54
highvoltageso meta...20:54
highvoltage* include pencil (cool tool for drawing animations, comics, etc), in archives now, wasn't before20:55
highvoltage* include geogebra, new in archives since maverick but we picked up on it a bit late20:55
highvoltage* include new italc20:55
highvoltage* possibly include pdfmod, jcastro blogged about it and it seems like it might be useful: http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/1162196984/pdfmod20:56
highvoltage(not sure if it should really be installed by default)20:56
mhall119pdfmod is cool, not sure what's edu- about it though20:56
highvoltage* include openspell [needs-packaging]20:56
highvoltagemhall119: I guess if you're writing dissertation/thesis or perhaps other documentation, or you're a teacher who has to prepare a lesson from multiple sources, then working with pds'f  might become somewhat more important. I'm not sure, it's open for discussion :)20:57
mhall119can I add to the meta list?20:58
highvoltage* calibre - which is ebook management software, perhaps useful to catalog things like the gutenberg project? also needs some more investigation, at least it's packaged20:58
highvoltagemhall119: be my guest, I'll add it to the note and if you have more later you can add it to the wiki apge we still need to make20:59
highvoltagemhall119: and since you'll be at uds you could also bring it up there :)20:59
mhall119* include Laby, a programming tutorial similar in spirit to kturtle, can use C, Java or Python20:59
mhall119I think we should check up on OpenOffice4Kids, see how mature it has become, and what the plans are with the LibreOffice fork21:00
dindahighvoltage: I thought calibre is now included in maverick?21:00
highvoltageI've been playing freeciv a few weeks back and also realised how much can be learned about the concept of civilizations, technology, diplomacy, infrastructure and dependencies while playing that game21:00
highvoltageI think it could be a really cool addition in edubuntu, not sure if everyone will agree with that21:00
highvoltagedinda: maybe it is, I started working on this list a few months back, anything is possible21:01
mhall119I've been playing with Andika font for inclusion in Qimo, it's specifically designed to aid people learning to read, as well as people with reading disabilities21:01
dindaI thought I saw calibre on the featured apps list??21:01
ajmitchhighvoltage: freeciv could also be dangerously addictive :)21:01
highvoltagedinda: maybe you did, but featured apps != installed by default21:01
mhall119I'd also like a general discussion of accessibility in Edubuntu21:02
mhall119(and Qimo)21:02
highvoltagemhall119: do you think that edubuntu should focus on accessibility that would fall outside of the scope of the Ubuntu accessibility team?21:03
highvoltageajmitch: omg it is! and I want civ 5 too (I even kept a windows installation on my laptop *just* for that)21:04
mhall119I think it should focus on accessibility, whether or not it does so outside the accessibility team I don't know21:04
highvoltagemhall119: ok21:04
mhall119I know of at least one special-needs school in Florida that's using Ubuntu21:04
highvoltage* melting - can be used to compute the melting temperature of nucleic acid duplex (already packaged)21:05
highvoltage* linthesia - midi sequencer, can probably be used to learn some basic piano skills in bulk21:06
mhall119* Stellarium,  planetarium app21:06
mhall119* Celestian, a space simulation app21:06
highvoltage* gimpbox - puts the whole gimp in one window, has some bugs, I tried it out today but it's nice and also easy to package21:06
mhall119highvoltage: I thought the new gimp versions had that built iin21:06
highvoltagemhall119: they are nice, I was cautios before of including stuff that requires 3D graphics, but I think that's becomming a lot easier these days21:07
highvoltagemhall119: nope21:07
highvoltagemhall119: it is planned in upstream though21:07
mhall119"The latest development release of The Gimp image editor comes with a handy option single-window mode"21:07
mhall119from omgubuntu.co.uk anyway21:07
highvoltage* move from scribus to scribus-ng (already packaged)21:07
highvoltagemhall119: well, if *ubuntu* is going to include the latest *development* version of gimp in natty, then we'll be fine!21:08
highvoltageanyway, it's an arb thing on a list at this point :)21:09
highvoltage* Fix depends for qcad-doc on qt3-assistant21:09
highvoltage* andika font21:09
highvoltageoops, I just added that21:09
highvoltagemhall119: what is the andika font, btw?21:09
mhall119it's designed for beginning readers and dyslexics21:10
persiahighvoltage, For MIDI, I'd strongly recommend coordinating with the Studio team: there was some confusion in the past when Edubuntu ended up caring for some music software no longer of interest to Studio, and it ended up falling into a dead area where nobody maintained it well.21:10
highvoltagepersia: noted21:12
highvoltageso that's for meta-package changes and new packages, well at least potential ones21:13
highvoltageI'll post to the edubuntu-devel list about that too and let people know that it's their homework assignment to add more and provide feedback so long21:13
dindahighvoltage: are you trying to fill up an entire DVD?  ;)21:13
highvoltagedinda: heh, luckily they're quite small21:13
mhall119dinda: may as well, otherwise we're just wasting space21:14
highvoltagealso, we're installing way too many kde packages currently, there's so much KDE on an edubuntu session, that you can actually log in to a kde session!21:14
dindahighvoltage: what about documentation?  are there any missing areas?21:14
highvoltagewe need to fix that for natty, we'll probably save around 150MB from that21:14
highvoltagethe new stuff that I've listed so far would probably take less than that21:15
mhall119dinda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/AppGuide was 95% auto-generated, so I can re-build it easily for natty21:15
highvoltagedinda: yes! I added it to this wiki page so long: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/WorkForGrabs21:15
dindanice - on both accounts21:15
highvoltagedinda: the plan is to expand that page into a big list of all our work so that new contributors will be able to pop in and do a bit they are interested in easily21:16
mhall119highvoltage: I can tune my script to generate other formats too if we want, HTML or docbook21:16
highvoltagedinda: historically, we've had the problem that people pop in and say "hey! I want to help!" and then we're not really prepared for them21:17
dindahighvoltage: you're not the only team with that issue :)21:17
mhall119even PDF, as much as I'm hating it right now21:17
highvoltagemhall119: nice. we should actually link to that from the screenshots page on the website (perhaps we already do, my memory isn't that great)21:17
highvoltagedinda: "you're"!? :p21:17
dindahighvoltage: sorry, I mean "WE're"21:18
highvoltageoh right, I was on installer issues... (I think)21:18
mhall119highvoltage: it is linked already21:18
highvoltagedinda: that's better :)21:18
highvoltagecurrently, edubuntu's installation takes around 20 minutes longer than it should21:18
highvoltagethis is because we install a *lot* of language packs (actuall, all of them) and then afterwards we remove all of them again except for the one that the user chose21:18
highvoltagesame for localised fonts21:19
highvoltageubiquity currently has some limitations that we need to poke the installer team with at UDS. it would be really nice to have that fixed21:19
highvoltagecurrenty our ltsp options is also rather limited, which isn't at all so bad, but it would be nice to have an advanced options button or something similar I guess21:20
highvoltagethen there's also the options and stuff like tasks in ubiquity we discusssed earlier. there's a lot of work there, but it's a place where we can really make edubuntu shinie21:20
highvoltagemaking users actively choose optional extras will also help make them more aware of those features21:21
highvoltageso I guess it's safe to assume that we'll also have a session for installer improvements at UDS21:21
highvoltagethat's it on the list so far for installer21:21
mhall119highvoltage: I'm wondering how making package installation optional will work with the live session21:22
mhall119since they have to be insalled in the live session to be used21:22
highvoltagemhall119: it would probably work like the language packs. if something is de-selected, it will be uninstalled afterwards21:22
mhall119ok, have all selected by default, and the user un-selects what they want removed, that'll work21:22
highvoltagemhall119: some things don't work on the live session anyway (like italc) so it should really be removed21:22
mhall119makes sense21:23
highvoltagesomet higns arealso not all that useful to begin with on a live cd anyway, like nanny21:23
mhall119highvoltage: will we try for desktop profiles in Natty?21:23
highvoltagemhall119: yes, that's two items ahead on my list but let's skip to it :)21:23
mhall119lol, ok21:24
highvoltageif we do ever have different profiles for different kinds of users, it will probably be done with desktop-profiles21:24
mhall119which is just custom gconf settings right?21:24
highvoltagebut I think that will probably be post-natty21:24
highvoltagefor natty though, it will be useful for implementing a qimo desktop21:25
mhall119well, I think implementing a Qimo desktop will cover 80% of what is needed for desktop profiles21:25
highvoltagemhall119: I think it does a bit more than that, you can specify certain custom directories for settings, data, etc. which is useful for qimo21:25
mhall119since a gnome-based Qimo will basically be just that21:25
highvoltagemhall119: without desktop-profiles, isn't there a problem that all of its configuration is seperate?21:26
mhall119highvoltage: okay,that's XDG stuff too then, which Qimo already uses21:26
highvoltagemhall119: well, this is additional to that, let's go into the details later :)21:26
highvoltagebut it is on the list and I think doable for natty!21:27
highvoltagethen I think we should also have a session with canonical21:27
mhall119I'll do the qimo work with an eye towards full desktop profile support21:27
highvoltageat least have some key people involved to ask some questions. I don't think it's even that important to get answers right away21:27
highvoltagebut it would be nice to let canonical know that we have some questions and it also gives as a chance to answer some things we can21:28
highvoltageI have quite a few myself, for example,21:28
highvoltagethere's not really edubuntu products available from canonical atm, which results in other 3rd party companies providing support and services21:29
highvoltageso would it be ok for us to have an edubuntu market place on the website that lists to these commercial services? and also to providers like zareason and system76 that sells laptops and computers with edubuntu pre-installed21:29
highvoltageI'm not sure if that would be a UDS session, per se21:30
highvoltagebut there should probably be some kind of meeting at some poing21:30
mhall119yeah, that sounds more like a direct inquiry to the higher-ups21:31
highvoltagedinda: do you perhaps know who the best people would be to have in such a meeting? I'd really like to have sabdfl for that one since he was involved in and organised the original eudbuntu summit21:31
highvoltagedinda: it would be nice if you could provide a list of people who should be there, if you can21:31
mhall119perhaps someone already involved in Canonical's partner programs too21:31
dindahighvoltage: if you give me another until the end of next week, we'll know whether or not Canonical is going to be putting any resources at all in education21:32
highvoltagedinda: ok, that probably won't have a huge effect on the answer to that question, but ok :)21:33
dindahighvoltage: afaik, there is no opposition to creating the marketplace21:33
highvoltagethen on the edubuntu server side, we've pretty much covered that today already, there's the server in a box stuff, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/school-server-in-a-box and some packaging work that needs to be done21:33
highvoltagedinda: ok21:33
highvoltagehmm, under the artwork section on my list it says "Wallpaper - Ubuntu New Stable Apps Artwork discussion" I think that must have been a bad copy and paste or something because I don't know what it means :)21:34
mhall119I'm trying to get by brother to come to UDS for a couple of days, I'll see if he has any interest in doing some artwork for Edubuntu21:36
highvoltageah, there was some discussion on the artwork mailing list recently, but it's way too much to expand here atm :)21:36
highvoltage(I'll include that in the e-mail, which will probably take me another two hours to write at this point :) )21:36
highvoltagewe may also be adopting the breathe icon theme21:36
highvoltagethe author wants to give it up, although another contributor mentioned that they weren't aware that it's teh default in edubuntu21:37
mhall119what do you mean "give it up"?21:37
highvoltageas in, stop maintaining it21:38
highvoltagewe actually want to do some stuff with it, make panel icons nicer, update it to make it more modern21:38
highvoltageit still has lots of brown and old ubuntu references in it that's obsolete21:38
mhall119do we have any kind of style/brand focus for edubuntu?21:39
mhall119or has it been mostly ad hoc?21:39
highvoltagethen there's also the long outstanding issue of our ldm theme. it's ancient (still has old logo and everything) and we actually show the old ubuntu theme in our default ltsp implementation.21:39
highvoltagewe really need to fix that for natty!21:39
mhall119what's involved?21:39
highvoltagemhall119: one moment please21:40
highvoltagemhall119: for lucid I put together https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Artwork/LucidBranding21:40
highvoltagemhall119: for maverick: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Artwork/MaverickBranding21:40
highvoltagemhall119: I want to do that a bit more in advance for natty, and we need more of a community around it21:41
mhall119I'll see who I can volunteer21:41
highvoltagemhall119: I also want to involve ubuntu-artwork more (see the discusson on that list for more details, it's too involved to summarize here atm)21:41
highvoltagemhall119: :)21:41
mhall119highvoltage: will canonical give us resources from the artwork team?21:42
mhall119or will we have to talk them into doing it on their free time?21:42
highvoltagemhall119: depends what you mean by "canonical", "give us", and "artwork"21:42
mhall119will Canonical pay someone to make artwork for Edubuntu21:43
mhall119or design a palette for Edubuntu21:43
highvoltagemhall119: I'm sure if we can get really nice artwork that we have to pay for, Canonical would probably pay, it won't hurt to ask21:43
dindathe Design Team is waaaay backed up on all projects21:44
dindaI wouldn't hold my breath waiting for assistance from them21:44
highvoltagemhall119: I'm not really interested in asking them to specifically find someone and then paying them to design something from scratch21:45
mhall119I was just wondering if we were going to have to look outside of Canonical for designs and artwork21:45
mhall119sounds like we are21:45
highvoltagenot that I want to set our goals *too* high, but I think we can do a lot better without having to bring in the design team to come up with masterpieces like http://humphreybc.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/wallpaper.jpg21:45
stgraberwe usually look at what happen in Ubuntu and take some stuff from there21:46
mhall119I gotta have more orange!21:46
highvoltagemhall119: that's why we include gimp by default ;)21:46
dindaI also know of some graphic artists I can start asking to contribute21:47
highvoltagemhall119: I think for natty, a good, reasonably unique GTK theme and a new wallpaper would be a very good start21:48
highvoltagedinda: great21:48
dindaif the specs are already laid out, they can give it a shot21:49
mhall119highvoltage: well I'm gonna have to learn gtkrc, because we're planning on making 2 custom themes for Qimo, so I can probably help with that21:50
highvoltageeek, 8 minutes left to the next hour and I still haven't covered the existing list!21:50
mhall119mine will probably be clearlooks based21:50
mhall119I've gotta leave for home now too21:51
highvoltagemhall119: gtk themes can be hard, I'll actively resist a gtk them that doesn't have a community around it already, it's easy to make a bad, buggy gtk theme (see also: gnome-look.org)21:51
highvoltagemhall119: ah, good idea21:51
mhall119I plan on just creating a custom color scheme for clearlooks21:52
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-bbl
mhall119I agree that full blown gtk themes can be....difficult21:52
highvoltageI don't know if any of you had a chance to look at the youtube channel yet21:52
mhall119not yet21:52
highvoltagea lot of people made edubuntu videos21:52
highvoltageI was really blown away when I searched for edubuntu on youtube and saw so many results, and then found that there were so many that were interesting21:53
highvoltageit would be great to get some of those poeople involved and get them to do some edubuntu video docs21:53
mhall119oh wow, company in Iowa is selling Qimo machines21:53
mhall119sorry, tangent21:53
highvoltagealso feature some of them on the site21:54
highvoltagemhall119: nice21:54
highvoltagethen all I'll mention for desktop improvements for now is the possibility of zeitgeist extensions21:54
highvoltagemostly to allow a parent or teacher to see what programs kids have been using and what they've been up to21:55
highvoltageit might be hard to do it right, we want to make teacher's jobs easier, but we also don't want to intrude to much on user privacy, etc21:56
highvoltageah and stgraber also suggested earlier that we should make Live LTSP an option when you choose "Install Edubuntu" or "Test Edubuntu" from the gfxboot screen, instead of having it a menu item21:56
highvoltageactually that pretty much covers the list so far :)21:57
* mhall119 leaves for homoe21:57
mhall119home even21:57
highvoltagewell, thanks for everyone! I guess that's the end of this meeting :)21:58
highvoltage(and sorry if I blabbered on too much at parts :p)21:58
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel

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