[16:00] <robbiew> o/
[16:00] <robbiew> psurbhi: missed you in mumble
[16:00] <psurbhi> oh!
[16:01] <mvo> hello
[16:02] <cjwatson> yo
[16:03]  * mvo needs some seconds to finish his lighting summary thing for the week, gtimelog for the rescue
[16:04] <cjwatson> I normally use my =ubuntu/uploads folder :-)
[16:04] <barry> :)
[16:04] <robbiew> hmm...no doko
[16:04] <robbiew> anyway...let's get this bad boy up and running
[16:04] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[16:04] <mvo> I /msged him
[16:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is robbiew.
[16:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:04] <cjwatson> and scare myself with the way I've apparently made rather more than 6000 uploads to Ubuntu ever ...
[16:05] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
[16:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
[16:05] <doko_> nobody missed me in mumble ...
[16:05] <Keybuk> doko: who are you?
[16:06] <robbiew> okay....who's first.....psurbhi?
[16:06] <doko> Keybuk: doesn't help to deny me, I'll win settlers anyway ;)
[16:07] <psurbhi> 1) Last week, working on fixing bugs in autoassembly. found out that initramfs needs to set the hostname for the root array autoassembly to work. Working on a few more bugs that i can see while testing auto assembly of arrays.
[16:07] <psurbhi> 2) also worked on bug 503790 (pending kernel patch rewrite)
[16:07] <psurbhi> done..
[16:07] <robbiew> thnx
[16:07] <robbiew> doko?
[16:08] <doko> * componenent-mismatches and NBS cleanup, ongoing
[16:08] <doko> * some ARM fixes (mostly needed for archive cleanup)
[16:08] <doko> * OOo update
[16:08] <doko> * llvm updates
[16:08] <doko> done
[16:08] <doko> and still filing rc bug reports for build failures ...
[16:09] <robbiew> Keybuk?
[16:09] <Keybuk> - upstart: method of queuing start/stop requests for a job didn't work out, gone back to the drawing board on that one
[16:09] <Keybuk> - negation didn't work out either as a result "while not apache"
[16:09] <Keybuk> - some UDS planning calls
[16:09] <Keybuk> - my canonical.com e-mail doesn't work, nobody is noticing because I rarely reply to it anyway apparently
[16:09] <Keybuk> --
[16:10] <doko> Keybuk: please could you have a look at http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~lucas/ubuntu-nbs/32/upstart_0.6.6-3_lubuntu32.buildlog
[16:10] <Keybuk> the test failed
[16:10] <Keybuk> (null): Failed to spawn test main process: unable to set priority: Permission denied
[16:11] <Keybuk> clearly the build environment is not a Linux machine
[16:11] <cjwatson> could be a fakeroot bug?  setpriority requires CAP_SYS_NICE
[16:11] <Keybuk> that's actually just nice()
[16:12] <cjwatson> well, nice does too
[16:12] <Keybuk> but yes, could be a bug in a wrapper, or a bug in a vm, etc.
[16:12] <Keybuk> this works under fakeroot on the buildds though
[16:13] <robbiew> okay...moving on :)
[16:13] <robbiew> cjwatson?
[16:13] <cjwatson> done: consolekit VT activation fixes, awaiting test feedback; uploaded Windows interop fix for grub2; finished /lib/init/rw symlink migration; helping doko with archive catchup; finally managed to reproduce and fix bug 569900 (not quite as evil conditions as the "will not print on Tuesday" bug, but getting there)
[16:13] <Keybuk> (a quick check shows me this package built ok on LP - so whatever ubuntu-nbs is using mustn't be compatible)
[16:13] <cjwatson> todo: dmraid testing to make sure it hasn't all gone horribly wrong; hassle people with problems to test consolekit fix; more out-of-date/NBS work; release! (nearly)
[16:13] <cjwatson> (anything I've forgotten?)
[16:13] <cjwatson> --
[16:14] <robbiew> thnx
[16:14] <robbiew> barry?
[16:14] <barry> python issues 9916 (errno) and 9807 (build flags in config paths), triaged bug 646701 (pysqlite); udd stakeholders meeting, uds planning, bug 609186; debugged and filed bug 649927, helped with some launchpad mailing list issues; (done)
[16:15] <doko> barry: we really should demote sqlite after maverick ...
[16:15] <barry> oh and lots of insanity with fglrx :(
[16:15] <barry> doko: why?
[16:16] <doko> barry: we try to minimize the versions in main (and we have sqlite3 for ages)
[16:16] <barry> doko: oh, i see.  not demote sqlite3 :)  yeah, +1
[16:17] <robbiew> moving on...
[16:17] <robbiew> mvo?
[16:17] <mvo> app-install/command-not-found updates;natty planning calls;some sponsoring;python-apt;install and upgrade testin;lots of software-center work, fixes in buy-something, scalability fixes (proper etag use), add ricks-wallpapers to the purchase; (done)
[16:18] <robbiew> and ev is awol
[16:18] <Keybuk> told you, Mark fired him
[16:18] <robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/Good News
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/Good News
[16:18] <robbiew> heh
[16:19] <Keybuk> sorry, that should have waited for the Good News
[16:19] <robbiew> figure with 10.10 so close...we can keep this short ;)
[16:19] <barry> badump dump
[16:19] <robbiew> I sent out the request for 11.04 ideas
[16:19] <robbiew> I'll be going through deferred blueprints as well
[16:19] <robbiew> retargeting
[16:19] <barry> robbiew: you got my response?
[16:19] <robbiew> if I miss one you want...let me know
[16:19] <robbiew> barry: yep, thnx
[16:19] <barry> thx
[16:20] <robbiew> Good News: James Hunt has signed his contract...he's ours now....uuahahahahahahahhaaaaa!
[16:20] <barry> rock!  so he'll be @ uds?
[16:20] <robbiew> yep
[16:20]  * doko throws glibc at him
[16:20] <cjwatson> first day of UDS will be his first day
[16:20] <cjwatson> aiui
[16:21] <robbiew> he may stop by the office during the release sprint...not sure yet
[16:21] <cjwatson> AOB: archive admins (and for that matter others), could use help with NBS, out-of-date builds, FTBFS, and that kind of archive consistency stuff
[16:21] <Keybuk> cjwatson: does James have any nickname he's particularly fond of using?
[16:22] <cjwatson> I have no idea.  That sounds like a loaded question :)
[16:22] <Keybuk> "piggy"
[16:22] <robbiew> heh
[16:22] <cjwatson> oh don't even go there :)
[16:22] <mvo> haha
[16:22] <barry> cjwatson: what's the best way to pick off things to work on?
[16:23] <cjwatson> coordinate on #ubuntu-release.  doko and I have both been working through http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/
[16:23] <doko> barry: I'm filing bug reports for the ftbfs, targeted to maverick, severity high
[16:23] <barry> cjwatson, doko +1
[16:24] <cjwatson> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ too
[16:24] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ too
[16:24] <cjwatson> which actually has a really useful layout now, useful mouseover text and the like
[16:24] <cjwatson> it's mostly universe at this point, but needs a push
[16:25] <barry> cool. i'll look at some of those
[16:25] <cjwatson> doko: best milestone them for ubuntu-10.10 as well (if you aren't already)
[16:25] <doko> already done
[16:25]  * cjwatson nods
[16:25] <cjwatson> so I'm using https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+bugs?field.milestone=27462
[16:26] <doko> and http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_ftbfs.cgi   but the ones in main are already triaged
[16:26] <cjwatson> oh, does anyone actually have a machine that suffers from bug 641259?
[16:26] <cjwatson> debugging it with remote hands who don't really know their way around the boot loader is likely to be really really difficult
[16:26] <cjwatson> it could use a local developer
[16:26] <barry> cjwatson: i looked at that one, and i don't
[16:27] <mvo> cjwatson: if you could later have a quick look at bug #650525, it appears its a livefs build issues, i.e. the key is not on the livefs
[16:27] <cjwatson> mkay
[16:27] <mvo> cjwatson: a idea would be welcome, maybe its simply a ordering issue
[16:30] <robbiew> ok...guess that's it
[16:30] <cjwatson> very odd indeed, no obvious sign of the problem from the build log
[16:30] <cjwatson> but I can reproduce it tooo
[16:31] <cjwatson> but yeah, no more business here
[16:31] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[16:31] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:31.
[16:31] <robbiew> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLFYx6xlhB0
[16:31] <mvo> thanks
[16:31] <robbiew> ;)...thnx all
[16:32] <barry> robbiew: that is a classic
[16:32] <robbiew> indeed
[16:33] <mvo> haha, saw it for the first time
[16:33] <psurbhi> heh
[16:34] <psurbhi> cool one!
[20:02]  * stgraber looks around for Edubuntuers
[20:02]  * dinda is here
[20:03] <stgraber> ping mgariepy, highvoltage, mhall119, ...
[20:03] <mhall119> o/
[20:03] <mgariepy> o/
[20:03] <stgraber> I believe highvoltage is finishing an e-mail containing most of what we want to discuss/implement for Natty and that we'd like to discuss today
[20:08] <highvoltage> hi!
[20:09] <highvoltage> stgraber: I'm still busy with that e-mail, it's going to be a long one, I hope not too long :)
[20:09] <mhall119> there he is
[20:09] <mhall119> man of the hour
[20:09] <highvoltage> heh :)
[20:09] <mhall119> well, man of the 55 minutes remaining anyway
[20:10] <highvoltage> I don't know if you saw, but we got featured on OMG!Ubuntu! - http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/09/edubuntu-10-10-boasts-many-surprises/
[20:11] <highvoltage> meeting agenda is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda - which still says 15 September 2010, which just shows you how busy we have been :)
[20:11] <mhall119> I didn't, but yay
[20:11]  * highvoltage updates
[20:11] <highvoltage> dinda: any updates on your education assignment? I've been wondering how that's going
[20:12] <dinda> it's going well!
[20:12] <dinda> in the midst of editing lots of PDF data sheets for the ubuntu website as we speak
[20:12] <highvoltage> I added a link to the wiki page you started on the edubuntu blog: http://edubuntu.org/2010-09-26/growing-list-schools-using-ubuntu
[20:12] <mhall119> dinda: Michelle brought an OLPC to our school's steering committee meeting, got everyone's interest
[20:12] <highvoltage> dinda: if you want access to the site to write your own blog entries, please let me know
[20:13] <dinda> aimed at various target audiences:  students, school decision makers, etc
[20:13] <highvoltage> it kind of feels silly that all the entries on that blog so far is written by me, we need to fix that :)
[20:13] <dinda> highvoltage: that would be great!
[20:13] <mhall119> dinda: does it have anything for school IT managers/admins?
[20:13] <dinda> mhall119: yeah, I'm playing with my Dell mini 9 right now, trying to get it updated and then going to add edubuntu
[20:14] <dinda> mhall119: yes, i'm trying to figure out how they make their decisions, what info they need to know about ubuntu
[20:14] <dinda> I'm finding that most are familiar with open source, though not many with Ubuntu
[20:14] <highvoltage> about the e-mail stgraber was talking about earlier, there's a thread on the ubuntu-devel mailing list about tracks at UDS and sessions that will be planned
[20:15] <mhall119> dinda: there's probably a perception that it's for hobbyists too
[20:15] <highvoltage> I'm starting a new thread there about Edubuntu, why it exists, our plans and what we'd need to discuss at UDS
[20:16] <highvoltage> currently, we have enough ideas and plans to fill up at least 3-4 releases
[20:16] <dinda> highvoltage: that's something I was asked last week. . . why edubuntu?
[20:16] <dinda> does it really require it's own derivative?
[20:16] <dinda> or is the add-on the way to go?
[20:16] <highvoltage> so it kind of boils down to what the best order is to implement them, what the most important features are, what can actually be implemented in 6 months, and what we should start working on now for natty+1 already
[20:17] <highvoltage> dinda: those are all great and valid questions, and I attempt to answer exactly that in that email
[20:18] <dinda> highvoltage: great, b/c I've got about a week to try to make the argument for continued funding for education
[20:18] <highvoltage> dinda: well, as you know, edubuntu maintains (or at least tries to) get the latest and greatest educational stuff into ubuntu, and then maintain it there
[20:18] <mhall119> dinda: I'd point out that edubuntu > edubuntu.iso
[20:19] <mhall119> the team also maintains most of the education packages that go into the repos
[20:19] <highvoltage> so the question is, why put it on another iso if you can just install and configure everything in ubuntu, because that is after all where all our work happens
[20:19] <highvoltage> dinda: in 2003, I got involved with a volunteer organisation that implemented linux labs in schools
[20:20] <highvoltage> dinda: at the time, we installed K12-LTSP, which was basically Red Hat 9 + LTSP 4.1 preconfigured. it was great because we could show a teacher who had very little technical knowledge how to get a whole computer lab of 20 to 30 computers working in less than an hour
[20:21] <mhall119> dinda: same reason why Kubuntu, Xubuntu, MythBuntu and Ubuntu Studio all have their own ISOs, it reduces the difficulty of getting to where you already know you want to get
[20:21] <dinda> I think the iso makes it much easier to implement
[20:21] <highvoltage> it also boosted the confidence of the teacher(s) who maintained the lab, because he/she knew that even if the biggest thing could go wrong, they knew how to re-install (and later on, restore from backups :) )
[20:21] <mhall119> same reason Ubuntu exists, really, when Debian had all the packages
[20:21] <highvoltage> dinda: so that turn-key factor becomes very, very important in primary and high schools. even for home computer to a large degree
[20:22] <highvoltage> dinda: exactly!
[20:22] <dinda> right now I'm planning a training for some local teachers and I have a stack of Ubuntu CDs but really need to show them the educational-desktop. . .
[20:22] <dinda> so I'm thinking of instead creating a stack of edubuntu live CDs or perhaps using USB drives
[20:22] <highvoltage> universities we care a bout a little, but not so much since universities typically has lots of money and enough IT resources on-site to implement Ubuntu and install everything else manually
[20:23] <highvoltage> dinda: that is indeed another reason to have the Edubuntu DVD. It's also why people requested LTSP live so much a few releases back
[20:23] <highvoltage> back to plans for natty (while still staying on this subject)
[20:24] <highvoltage> the edubuntu dvd is currently quite flawed in how we actually install packages and the stuff we ship with
[20:24] <highvoltage> basically, besides unity and ltsp, we just install *everything*
[20:24] <mhall119> all the ubuntu-edu-* packages you mean?
[20:24] <highvoltage> this makes the install a bit bigger and slower than it needs to be, but also pushes up our system requirements, especially for home users
[20:24] <highvoltage> mhall119: and a bit more...
[20:24] <stgraber> mhall119: not only
[20:25] <highvoltage> for example, nanny and italc gets installed by default
[20:25] <stgraber> mhall119: atomix, edubuntu-artwork, edubuntu-docs, edubuntu-menueditor, gimp, gnome-icon-theme-gartoon, gobby, italc-client, khelpcenter4, kolourpaint4, liferea, nanny, pessulus, sabayon, scribus, ubuntu-edu-preschool, ubuntu-edu-primary, ubuntu-edu-secondary, ubuntu-edu-tertiary, xaos
[20:25] <mhall119> but still edubuntu-related stuff
[20:25] <highvoltage> they run more services that pushes our system requirements up quite a bit. installing edubuntu from the live session currently requires about 1GB of RAM :(
[20:26] <dinda> and I noticed some overlap in the primary/secondary sets but i assume an app only gets installed once
[20:26] <mhall119> I know there is a lot of Edubuntu tied up with Gnome, but is there any thought to moving towards a lighter desktop like Xfce or LXDE?
[20:27] <highvoltage> one way we could improve this is by doing some more work in the installer, so that users could better choose exactly what they want. Perhaps we should split it into profiles, so that users could choose between "Home Computer", "Primary School", "Secondary School", "Library", "NGO", etc and that would install the appropriate packages
[20:27] <mhall119> dinda: yes, only once
[20:27] <highvoltage> (I'm not sure about that, but that's something to discuss at a UDS)
[20:27] <highvoltage> or perhaps they should simply be presented with a list of options and then tick of what they want
[20:27] <dinda> definitely a UDS topic
[20:28] <mhall119> highvoltage: the ubiquity functionality to choose to install restricted extras might serve that purpose
[20:28] <highvoltage> stgraber's installer work for maverick can definitely help with implementing that from a technical perspective: https://stgraber.org/2010/09/10/edubuntu-gets-new-installer
[20:28] <dinda> all the sys admins I'm talking to are asking for more control over what gets installed
[20:28] <persia> highvoltage, Graphical tasksel interface for ubiquity sort-of-thing?
[20:28] <dinda> and what gets hidden or not installed as well
[20:28] <highvoltage> persia: exactly, that is exactly what stgraber and I were saying IRL probably while you typed that :)
[20:29] <dinda> how is the testing on Maverick going?
[20:29] <persia> heh
[20:29] <highvoltage> persia: edubuntu actually had tasks before in d-i, but we lost that moving to Ubiquity
[20:29]  * persia remembers but thinks ubiquity is prettier :)
[20:29] <highvoltage> dinda: Edubuntu 10.10 is great so far, it was pretty much the first system to past the tests on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
[20:30] <highvoltage> dinda: so testing has been good
[20:30] <dinda> excellent
[20:30] <dinda> good work team!
[20:30] <stgraber> we just need to write the release anouncement+notes for RC and we'll be good to go (unless there's a general respin)
[20:31] <highvoltage> eudbuntu amd64 UPGRADE still needs to be tested, I believe it's on stgraber's todo list ;)
[20:31] <highvoltage> stgraber: ah, there's a file we need changed on the DVD (outside of squashfs) so that the release notes button in ubituity points to our release notes url
[20:31] <stgraber> persia: yep, having a ubiquity step that'd let you choose which tasks you want from a given list (I don't want the same ugly list we have in d-i) is probably what I'd like to implement/see implemented
[20:31]  * highvoltage makes note of that again
[20:32] <highvoltage> dinda: I hope that my explenation at least partially answered 'why edubuntu?'
[20:33]  * persia would be interested in such a UDS session as a general component addition for use in other flavours as well
[20:33] <dinda> highvoltage: it does, I mean it makes sense to me but the concern is that it was somehow taking resources (contributors) from Ubuntu
[20:33] <highvoltage> dinda: if we can get the flexibility + usability right, it could be a great system for *any* educational environment
[20:33] <highvoltage> dinda: heh, who had *that* concern?
[20:33] <persia> Considering that Edubuntu is part of the Ubuntu project, it's a bit of an odd concern
[20:34] <mhall119> yeah
[20:34] <highvoltage> dinda: if anything, edubuntu ads to and enriches the ubuntu ecosystem
[20:34] <dinda> but the argument that the edubuntu team maintains all those packages is a good one
[20:34] <persia> If Edubuntu was a derivative, I can see it, but it's a fully-qualified flavour.
[20:34] <mhall119> it's a bit like saying your arm is drawing resources from your body
[20:34] <highvoltage> yeah, not only that, but we also work with some upstreams to make collaboration with ubuntu better. if it wasn't for edubuntu, other people, like MOTUs and core-devs would have more work
[20:35] <dinda> highvoltage: good point
[20:35] <mhall119> also there'd be no Qimo packages in Universe
[20:35] <mhall119> because I know that'll make all the difference in the world....
[20:35] <persia> Um, many Edubuntu uploaders *are* MOTUs and core-devs.  these are not exclusive sets.
[20:36] <dinda> mhall119: :)
[20:36] <highvoltage> one of the other long-term things we should think about is server apps. we've been doing that, but we probably need a better long term plan. (things such as moodle, schooltool, etc)
[20:36] <dinda> highvoltage: yes, that's a project I'm trying to get some backing for
[20:36] <highvoltage> I think an edubuntu-server (for lack of better name) metapackage would be a nice add-on for ubuntu-server
[20:36] <mhall119> dinda: think of Edubuntu like the artwork team, nobody is concerned that they are taking resources away from ubuntu development
[20:36] <highvoltage> it probably doesn't need to be a der^H^H^H flavour of it's own
[20:37] <dinda> if we can get a solid school server bundle, it would interest some OEMs
[20:37] <mhall119> it would be nice if there was a turn-key server solution from Ubuntu that provided OpenLDAP+Samba+Email+whatever all integrated together
[20:37] <mhall119> then edubuntu-server could build off that
[20:37] <highvoltage> dinda: I can imagine, selling a server with a bunch of computers can boost their income quite a bit :)
[20:37] <persia> highvoltage, You might consider following the practice of Kubuntu: one flavour, many faces (sometimes on a single image, sometimes on other images)
[20:37] <dinda> mhall119: I think even more importantly the Edubuntu team has taken over the upkeep of all this software. . .
[20:37] <mhall119> from what I've seen, the LTSP stuff has been mostly edubuntu driven
[20:38] <persia> dinda, I think most of it has always been maintained by the Edubuntu team (since there was one)
[20:38] <highvoltage> persia: indeed. we want to avoid having as many images as Kubuntu though, for the simple reason that it becomes a lot to test. Testing already takes up a lot of our time :)
[20:38] <dinda> the other big confusion I hear from alot of folks is that "Edubuntu is just for primary grades"  young kids
[20:39] <persia> highvoltage, heh.  Of course :)
[20:39] <highvoltage> mhall119: technicall ltsp falls under the server team. so the work that stgraber and als myself have done there would probably fall under server team work. we just happen to be edubuntu contributors as well :)
[20:39] <highvoltage> (and happen to know that ltsp works great in education :) )
[20:39] <persia> LTSP has moved around a bit: didn't used to be in -server
[20:39] <mhall119> highvoltage: if not for being edubuntu contributors, would you be working on LTSP for the server team?
[20:39] <dinda> yip, I suspect this UDS we'll see even more LTSP discussion in the server track
[20:40] <highvoltage> dinda: that's pretty much the same as people saying "ubuntu is just great for desktops". just because ubuntu is a great desktop system, they assume that it's all that it's good for. (which is of course not true)
[20:40] <mhall119> there was talk about doing an LTSP demo wasn't there?
[20:40] <dinda> ltsp or general thin client solutions are being requested more and more
[20:40] <dinda> highvoltage: I think some of it is just marketing. . .
[20:40] <highvoltage> dinda: we happen to have great primary school packages, better than for older ages, for sure. maybe makign it optional and not have it installed by default could help shape that perception
[20:41] <highvoltage> dinda: I think it's natural of people to assume that "it's just for small kids" when there's lots of stuff for small kids installed
[20:42] <mhall119> I'd rather change perceptions through information, rather than removing the functionality that it's already known for
[20:43]  * highvoltage realises that he's been blabbering for >30mins!
[20:43] <highvoltage> at least we don't have that much left to do for maverick, so we can be more chatty :)
[20:43] <highvoltage> our remaining to do list, the way I see it, is as follows:
[20:43] <stgraber> persia: technically it's on -alternate because it's the only image where we have the .debs for all of the desktop. It just wasn't possible to include it on -server
[20:44] <highvoltage> * stgraber to test amd64 lucid -> maverick upgrade
[20:44] <highvoltage> * edubuntu release notes and release announcement
[20:44] <highvoltage> * fix link on cd to release notes page
[20:44] <highvoltage> * finish installation guide
[20:44] <persia> stgraber, Ah, that makes more sense.  I didn't remember seeing it in the -server set.
[20:45] <highvoltage> not sure if I talked about the installation guide before here, I started working on an installation guide, you can preview it here so long: http://edubuntu.org/documentation/10.10/installation-guide
[20:45] <highvoltage> is there something I left out on our todo list?
[20:46] <highvoltage> (well, for maverick at leasT)
[20:47] <stgraber> seems like about it
[20:47] <stgraber> we still need to write blueprints for natty but that can still happen post-release
[20:47] <highvoltage> dinda: I think it's great when we get to ask and answer the 'why edubuntu' kind of questions, I'd like to get that up on the website as well
[20:49] <mhall119> highvoltage: as 2 answers: Why Edubuntu images and why Edubuntu project
[20:49] <dinda> installation guide looks nice
[20:49] <highvoltage> mhall119: *nod*
[20:50] <mhall119> or, what Edubuntu gives to schools, and what Edubuntu gives to Ubuntu
[20:50] <mhall119> to be a bit more clear
[20:50] <dinda> mhall119: was just thinking of that last bit
[20:50] <highvoltage> that's also a nice way to look at it
[20:50]  * highvoltage wonders if it's a good idea to start talking about potential natty features with 8 minutes left in the meeting
[20:51] <mhall119> is there anyone scheduled for the next hour?
[20:51] <highvoltage> mhall119: QA team in a bit more than an hour
[20:51] <highvoltage> (if google calender is to be believed)
[20:52] <mhall119> then we've got time
[20:52] <stgraber> nope, QA is currently and in #ubuntu-qa ;)
[20:52] <stgraber> so no conflict there
[20:52] <persia> In #ubuntu-quality !
[20:52] <highvoltage> ok, here's some ideas that I'm just going to dump, it's probably not a complete list even, but I've collated some of my and stgraber's ideas so that we can post it to the ubuntu-devel list and have some sessions organised
[20:52] <persia> #ubuntu-qa belongs to the Qatar LoCo team (when they come to exist)
[20:53] <stgraber> persia: oh right, we renamed it to #ubuntu-quality ;)
[20:53] <stgraber> persia: it's the ML that's still wrong
[20:53] <mhall119> highvoltage: is there a wiki for this list yet? or are we going straight to blueprints?
[20:53] <highvoltage> and yet the mailing list is ubuntu-qa! I ended up sending a mail to ubuntu-qa when I meant to send a mail to ubuntu-cq (which is actually ubuntu-quebec!)
[20:53] <persia> stgraber, Right.
[20:54] <highvoltage> mhall119: it's a tomboy note on my computer, it will be an email and wiki page some time after this meeting :)
[20:54] <mhall119> with one.u.c would let you share notes
[20:54] <highvoltage> I'll start with meta and packages since it's kind of the easy part
[20:54] <mhall119> s/with/wish/
[20:54] <highvoltage> so meta...
[20:55] <highvoltage> * include pencil (cool tool for drawing animations, comics, etc), in archives now, wasn't before
[20:55] <highvoltage> * include geogebra, new in archives since maverick but we picked up on it a bit late
[20:55] <highvoltage> * include new italc
[20:56] <highvoltage> * possibly include pdfmod, jcastro blogged about it and it seems like it might be useful: http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/1162196984/pdfmod
[20:56] <highvoltage> (not sure if it should really be installed by default)
[20:56] <mhall119> pdfmod is cool, not sure what's edu- about it though
[20:56] <highvoltage> * include openspell [needs-packaging]
[20:57] <highvoltage> mhall119: I guess if you're writing dissertation/thesis or perhaps other documentation, or you're a teacher who has to prepare a lesson from multiple sources, then working with pds'f  might become somewhat more important. I'm not sure, it's open for discussion :)
[20:58] <mhall119> can I add to the meta list?
[20:58] <highvoltage> * calibre - which is ebook management software, perhaps useful to catalog things like the gutenberg project? also needs some more investigation, at least it's packaged
[20:59] <highvoltage> mhall119: be my guest, I'll add it to the note and if you have more later you can add it to the wiki apge we still need to make
[20:59] <highvoltage> mhall119: and since you'll be at uds you could also bring it up there :)
[20:59] <mhall119> * include Laby, a programming tutorial similar in spirit to kturtle, can use C, Java or Python
[21:00] <mhall119> I think we should check up on OpenOffice4Kids, see how mature it has become, and what the plans are with the LibreOffice fork
[21:00] <dinda> highvoltage: I thought calibre is now included in maverick?
[21:00] <highvoltage> I've been playing freeciv a few weeks back and also realised how much can be learned about the concept of civilizations, technology, diplomacy, infrastructure and dependencies while playing that game
[21:00] <highvoltage> I think it could be a really cool addition in edubuntu, not sure if everyone will agree with that
[21:01] <highvoltage> dinda: maybe it is, I started working on this list a few months back, anything is possible
[21:01] <mhall119> I've been playing with Andika font for inclusion in Qimo, it's specifically designed to aid people learning to read, as well as people with reading disabilities
[21:01] <dinda> I thought I saw calibre on the featured apps list??
[21:01] <ajmitch> highvoltage: freeciv could also be dangerously addictive :)
[21:01] <highvoltage> dinda: maybe you did, but featured apps != installed by default
[21:02] <mhall119> I'd also like a general discussion of accessibility in Edubuntu
[21:02] <mhall119> (and Qimo)
[21:03] <highvoltage> mhall119: do you think that edubuntu should focus on accessibility that would fall outside of the scope of the Ubuntu accessibility team?
[21:04] <highvoltage> ajmitch: omg it is! and I want civ 5 too (I even kept a windows installation on my laptop *just* for that)
[21:04] <mhall119> I think it should focus on accessibility, whether or not it does so outside the accessibility team I don't know
[21:04] <highvoltage> mhall119: ok
[21:04] <mhall119> I know of at least one special-needs school in Florida that's using Ubuntu
[21:05] <highvoltage> * melting - can be used to compute the melting temperature of nucleic acid duplex (already packaged)
[21:06] <highvoltage> * linthesia - midi sequencer, can probably be used to learn some basic piano skills in bulk
[21:06] <mhall119> * Stellarium,  planetarium app
[21:06] <mhall119> * Celestian, a space simulation app
[21:06] <highvoltage> * gimpbox - puts the whole gimp in one window, has some bugs, I tried it out today but it's nice and also easy to package
[21:06] <mhall119> highvoltage: I thought the new gimp versions had that built iin
[21:07] <highvoltage> mhall119: they are nice, I was cautios before of including stuff that requires 3D graphics, but I think that's becomming a lot easier these days
[21:07] <highvoltage> mhall119: nope
[21:07] <highvoltage> mhall119: it is planned in upstream though
[21:07] <mhall119> "The latest development release of The Gimp image editor comes with a handy option single-window mode"
[21:07] <mhall119> from omgubuntu.co.uk anyway
[21:07] <highvoltage> * move from scribus to scribus-ng (already packaged)
[21:08] <highvoltage> mhall119: well, if *ubuntu* is going to include the latest *development* version of gimp in natty, then we'll be fine!
[21:08] <mhall119> ok
[21:09] <highvoltage> anyway, it's an arb thing on a list at this point :)
[21:09] <highvoltage> * Fix depends for qcad-doc on qt3-assistant
[21:09] <highvoltage> * andika font
[21:09] <highvoltage> oops, I just added that
[21:09] <mhall119> lol
[21:09] <highvoltage> mhall119: what is the andika font, btw?
[21:10] <mhall119> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=andika
[21:10] <mhall119> it's designed for beginning readers and dyslexics
[21:10] <persia> highvoltage, For MIDI, I'd strongly recommend coordinating with the Studio team: there was some confusion in the past when Edubuntu ended up caring for some music software no longer of interest to Studio, and it ended up falling into a dead area where nobody maintained it well.
[21:12] <highvoltage> persia: noted
[21:13] <highvoltage> so that's for meta-package changes and new packages, well at least potential ones
[21:13] <highvoltage> I'll post to the edubuntu-devel list about that too and let people know that it's their homework assignment to add more and provide feedback so long
[21:13] <dinda> highvoltage: are you trying to fill up an entire DVD?  ;)
[21:13] <highvoltage> dinda: heh, luckily they're quite small
[21:14] <mhall119> dinda: may as well, otherwise we're just wasting space
[21:14] <highvoltage> also, we're installing way too many kde packages currently, there's so much KDE on an edubuntu session, that you can actually log in to a kde session!
[21:14] <dinda> highvoltage: what about documentation?  are there any missing areas?
[21:14] <highvoltage> we need to fix that for natty, we'll probably save around 150MB from that
[21:15] <highvoltage> the new stuff that I've listed so far would probably take less than that
[21:15] <mhall119> dinda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/AppGuide was 95% auto-generated, so I can re-build it easily for natty
[21:15] <highvoltage> dinda: yes! I added it to this wiki page so long: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/WorkForGrabs
[21:15] <dinda> nice - on both accounts
[21:16] <highvoltage> dinda: the plan is to expand that page into a big list of all our work so that new contributors will be able to pop in and do a bit they are interested in easily
[21:16] <mhall119> highvoltage: I can tune my script to generate other formats too if we want, HTML or docbook
[21:17] <highvoltage> dinda: historically, we've had the problem that people pop in and say "hey! I want to help!" and then we're not really prepared for them
[21:17] <dinda> highvoltage: you're not the only team with that issue :)
[21:17] <mhall119> even PDF, as much as I'm hating it right now
[21:17] <highvoltage> mhall119: nice. we should actually link to that from the screenshots page on the website (perhaps we already do, my memory isn't that great)
[21:17] <highvoltage> dinda: "you're"!? :p
[21:18] <dinda> highvoltage: sorry, I mean "WE're"
[21:18] <highvoltage> oh right, I was on installer issues... (I think)
[21:18] <mhall119> highvoltage: it is linked already
[21:18] <highvoltage> dinda: that's better :)
[21:18] <highvoltage> currently, edubuntu's installation takes around 20 minutes longer than it should
[21:18] <highvoltage> this is because we install a *lot* of language packs (actuall, all of them) and then afterwards we remove all of them again except for the one that the user chose
[21:19] <highvoltage> same for localised fonts
[21:19] <highvoltage> ubiquity currently has some limitations that we need to poke the installer team with at UDS. it would be really nice to have that fixed
[21:20] <highvoltage> currenty our ltsp options is also rather limited, which isn't at all so bad, but it would be nice to have an advanced options button or something similar I guess
[21:20] <highvoltage> then there's also the options and stuff like tasks in ubiquity we discusssed earlier. there's a lot of work there, but it's a place where we can really make edubuntu shinie
[21:20] <highvoltage> *shine
[21:21] <highvoltage> making users actively choose optional extras will also help make them more aware of those features
[21:21] <highvoltage> so I guess it's safe to assume that we'll also have a session for installer improvements at UDS
[21:21] <highvoltage> that's it on the list so far for installer
[21:22] <mhall119> highvoltage: I'm wondering how making package installation optional will work with the live session
[21:22] <mhall119> since they have to be insalled in the live session to be used
[21:22] <highvoltage> mhall119: it would probably work like the language packs. if something is de-selected, it will be uninstalled afterwards
[21:22] <mhall119> ok, have all selected by default, and the user un-selects what they want removed, that'll work
[21:22] <highvoltage> mhall119: some things don't work on the live session anyway (like italc) so it should really be removed
[21:23] <mhall119> makes sense
[21:23] <highvoltage> somet higns arealso not all that useful to begin with on a live cd anyway, like nanny
[21:23] <mhall119> highvoltage: will we try for desktop profiles in Natty?
[21:23] <highvoltage> mhall119: yes, that's two items ahead on my list but let's skip to it :)
[21:24] <mhall119> lol, ok
[21:24] <highvoltage> if we do ever have different profiles for different kinds of users, it will probably be done with desktop-profiles
[21:24] <mhall119> which is just custom gconf settings right?
[21:24] <highvoltage> but I think that will probably be post-natty
[21:25] <highvoltage> for natty though, it will be useful for implementing a qimo desktop
[21:25] <mhall119> well, I think implementing a Qimo desktop will cover 80% of what is needed for desktop profiles
[21:25] <highvoltage> mhall119: I think it does a bit more than that, you can specify certain custom directories for settings, data, etc. which is useful for qimo
[21:25] <mhall119> since a gnome-based Qimo will basically be just that
[21:26] <highvoltage> mhall119: without desktop-profiles, isn't there a problem that all of its configuration is seperate?
[21:26] <mhall119> highvoltage: okay,that's XDG stuff too then, which Qimo already uses
[21:26] <highvoltage> mhall119: well, this is additional to that, let's go into the details later :)
[21:26] <mhall119> ok
[21:27] <highvoltage> but it is on the list and I think doable for natty!
[21:27] <highvoltage> then I think we should also have a session with canonical
[21:27] <mhall119> I'll do the qimo work with an eye towards full desktop profile support
[21:27] <highvoltage> at least have some key people involved to ask some questions. I don't think it's even that important to get answers right away
[21:28] <highvoltage> but it would be nice to let canonical know that we have some questions and it also gives as a chance to answer some things we can
[21:28] <highvoltage> I have quite a few myself, for example,
[21:29] <highvoltage> there's not really edubuntu products available from canonical atm, which results in other 3rd party companies providing support and services
[21:29] <highvoltage> so would it be ok for us to have an edubuntu market place on the website that lists to these commercial services? and also to providers like zareason and system76 that sells laptops and computers with edubuntu pre-installed
[21:30] <highvoltage> I'm not sure if that would be a UDS session, per se
[21:30] <highvoltage> but there should probably be some kind of meeting at some poing
[21:31] <mhall119> yeah, that sounds more like a direct inquiry to the higher-ups
[21:31] <highvoltage> dinda: do you perhaps know who the best people would be to have in such a meeting? I'd really like to have sabdfl for that one since he was involved in and organised the original eudbuntu summit
[21:31] <highvoltage> dinda: it would be nice if you could provide a list of people who should be there, if you can
[21:31] <mhall119> perhaps someone already involved in Canonical's partner programs too
[21:32] <dinda> highvoltage: if you give me another until the end of next week, we'll know whether or not Canonical is going to be putting any resources at all in education
[21:33] <highvoltage> dinda: ok, that probably won't have a huge effect on the answer to that question, but ok :)
[21:33] <dinda> highvoltage: afaik, there is no opposition to creating the marketplace
[21:33] <highvoltage> then on the edubuntu server side, we've pretty much covered that today already, there's the server in a box stuff, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/school-server-in-a-box and some packaging work that needs to be done
[21:33] <highvoltage> dinda: ok
[21:34] <highvoltage> hmm, under the artwork section on my list it says "Wallpaper - Ubuntu New Stable Apps Artwork discussion" I think that must have been a bad copy and paste or something because I don't know what it means :)
[21:36] <mhall119> I'm trying to get by brother to come to UDS for a couple of days, I'll see if he has any interest in doing some artwork for Edubuntu
[21:36] <highvoltage> ah, there was some discussion on the artwork mailing list recently, but it's way too much to expand here atm :)
[21:36] <highvoltage> (I'll include that in the e-mail, which will probably take me another two hours to write at this point :) )
[21:36] <highvoltage> we may also be adopting the breathe icon theme
[21:37] <highvoltage> the author wants to give it up, although another contributor mentioned that they weren't aware that it's teh default in edubuntu
[21:37] <mhall119> what do you mean "give it up"?
[21:38] <highvoltage> as in, stop maintaining it
[21:38] <mhall119> ok
[21:38] <highvoltage> we actually want to do some stuff with it, make panel icons nicer, update it to make it more modern
[21:38] <highvoltage> it still has lots of brown and old ubuntu references in it that's obsolete
[21:39] <mhall119> do we have any kind of style/brand focus for edubuntu?
[21:39] <mhall119> or has it been mostly ad hoc?
[21:39] <highvoltage> then there's also the long outstanding issue of our ldm theme. it's ancient (still has old logo and everything) and we actually show the old ubuntu theme in our default ltsp implementation.
[21:39] <highvoltage> we really need to fix that for natty!
[21:39] <mhall119> what's involved?
[21:40] <highvoltage> mhall119: one moment please
[21:40] <highvoltage> mhall119: for lucid I put together https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Artwork/LucidBranding
[21:40] <highvoltage> mhall119: for maverick: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Artwork/MaverickBranding
[21:41] <highvoltage> mhall119: I want to do that a bit more in advance for natty, and we need more of a community around it
[21:41] <mhall119> I'll see who I can volunteer
[21:41] <highvoltage> mhall119: I also want to involve ubuntu-artwork more (see the discusson on that list for more details, it's too involved to summarize here atm)
[21:41] <highvoltage> mhall119: :)
[21:42] <mhall119> highvoltage: will canonical give us resources from the artwork team?
[21:42] <mhall119> or will we have to talk them into doing it on their free time?
[21:42] <highvoltage> mhall119: depends what you mean by "canonical", "give us", and "artwork"
[21:42] <mhall119> lol
[21:43] <mhall119> will Canonical pay someone to make artwork for Edubuntu
[21:43] <mhall119> or design a palette for Edubuntu
[21:43] <highvoltage> mhall119: I'm sure if we can get really nice artwork that we have to pay for, Canonical would probably pay, it won't hurt to ask
[21:44] <dinda> the Design Team is waaaay backed up on all projects
[21:44] <dinda> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for assistance from them
[21:45] <highvoltage> mhall119: I'm not really interested in asking them to specifically find someone and then paying them to design something from scratch
[21:45] <mhall119> I was just wondering if we were going to have to look outside of Canonical for designs and artwork
[21:45] <mhall119> sounds like we are
[21:45] <highvoltage> not that I want to set our goals *too* high, but I think we can do a lot better without having to bring in the design team to come up with masterpieces like http://humphreybc.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/wallpaper.jpg
[21:46] <stgraber> we usually look at what happen in Ubuntu and take some stuff from there
[21:46] <mhall119> I gotta have more orange!
[21:46] <highvoltage> mhall119: that's why we include gimp by default ;)
[21:47] <dinda> I also know of some graphic artists I can start asking to contribute
[21:48] <highvoltage> mhall119: I think for natty, a good, reasonably unique GTK theme and a new wallpaper would be a very good start
[21:48] <highvoltage> dinda: great
[21:49] <dinda> if the specs are already laid out, they can give it a shot
[21:50] <mhall119> highvoltage: well I'm gonna have to learn gtkrc, because we're planning on making 2 custom themes for Qimo, so I can probably help with that
[21:50] <highvoltage> eek, 8 minutes left to the next hour and I still haven't covered the existing list!
[21:50] <mhall119> mine will probably be clearlooks based
[21:50] <mhall119> lol
[21:51] <mhall119> I've gotta leave for home now too
[21:51] <highvoltage> mhall119: gtk themes can be hard, I'll actively resist a gtk them that doesn't have a community around it already, it's easy to make a bad, buggy gtk theme (see also: gnome-look.org)
[21:51] <highvoltage> mhall119: ah, good idea
[21:52] <mhall119> I plan on just creating a custom color scheme for clearlooks
[21:52] <mhall119> I agree that full blown gtk themes can be....difficult
[21:52] <highvoltage> I don't know if any of you had a chance to look at the youtube channel yet
[21:52] <mhall119> not yet
[21:52] <highvoltage> a lot of people made edubuntu videos
[21:53] <highvoltage> I was really blown away when I searched for edubuntu on youtube and saw so many results, and then found that there were so many that were interesting
[21:53] <highvoltage> it would be great to get some of those poeople involved and get them to do some edubuntu video docs
[21:53] <mhall119> oh wow, company in Iowa is selling Qimo machines
[21:53] <mhall119> sorry, tangent
[21:54] <highvoltage> also feature some of them on the site
[21:54] <highvoltage> mhall119: nice
[21:54] <highvoltage> then all I'll mention for desktop improvements for now is the possibility of zeitgeist extensions
[21:55] <highvoltage> mostly to allow a parent or teacher to see what programs kids have been using and what they've been up to
[21:56] <highvoltage> it might be hard to do it right, we want to make teacher's jobs easier, but we also don't want to intrude to much on user privacy, etc
[21:56] <highvoltage> ah and stgraber also suggested earlier that we should make Live LTSP an option when you choose "Install Edubuntu" or "Test Edubuntu" from the gfxboot screen, instead of having it a menu item
[21:57] <highvoltage> actually that pretty much covers the list so far :)
[21:57] <mhall119> \o/
[21:57]  * mhall119 leaves for homoe
[21:57] <mhall119> home even
[21:58] <highvoltage> well, thanks for everyone! I guess that's the end of this meeting :)
[21:58] <highvoltage> (and sorry if I blabbered on too much at parts :p)