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HedgeMagehighvoltage: I'll idle and log to read later, but I'm not really here19:57
HedgeMageI have to get LF from school soon.19:57
highvoltageHedgeMage: ok :)19:57
highvoltageanyone else present and ready for action?19:57
* highvoltage stares at mgariepy 19:57
highvoltage(IRL and on IRC)19:57
mgariepyI'm here19:57
HedgeMagehighvoltage: if these meetings happened a different time of day, I'd attend most of them...they just happen to hit the pick-up-from-school time.19:58
mhall119I'm here19:58
highvoltageI started working on the release announcement, it's available for preview here: http://edubuntu.org/news/10.10-release19:59
highvoltagestill very draft19:59
mhall119on time for once19:59
highvoltageHedgeMage: ok, you get to pick the next meeting time, mail/jabber/irc me19:59
highvoltagehey mhall11919:59
HedgeMagehighvoltage: coolness!  Will do.20:00
* HedgeMage idles20:00
highvoltagehmm, slow wiki is sloooooooow20:00
mhall119"installable directly from the installer, allowing a much more intuitive installation" sounds funny to me, too many uses of "install"20:00
highvoltageI started working on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/WorkForGrabs20:00
mhall119but I'm not sure how else to phrase it20:01
highvoltageit's not as nice as the KDE one yet. at UDS we can expand it and probably assign people to tasks too20:01
highvoltagemhall119: noted! I'll put some thought into it (suggestions still welcome)20:01
mhall119also, a description of what Gnome Nanny is would be good20:01
highvoltageI'm extremely tempted to make it slightly more flashy and add pictures and screenshots, but it will mostly be distributed in text form anyway20:02
mhall119you can just add a link to screenshots20:02
pleia2highvoltage: nice!20:02
highvoltageyep, I guess20:02
highvoltagebesides release announcement / release notes, I'm just going to work on testing the final image that's going to be built today20:03
highvoltageif all goes well that will be our release that would get released on Sunday20:04
highvoltageanyone is welcome to do that though :)20:04
* mhall119 needs to zsync the new dvd image20:04
highvoltageI gave dinda blog access on the site20:04
highvoltagemhall119, mgariepy: if you'd like access too just poke me in pvt some time and I'll create you an account20:05
highvoltagewill be nice to have people write blog entries on the site that's just not me and stefanlsd :)20:05
highvoltageoops, that was aimed at stgraber (sorry stefanlsd)20:05
mhall119highvoltage: I might do that after UDS, so I can blog about integrating Qimo20:06
highvoltagemhall119: that would be really nice20:06
mhall119and any other edubuntu work I will (hopefully) be doing this cycle20:06
* stgraber waves20:06
* mhall119 plans to apply for Edubuntu membership this cycle20:06
highvoltagemhall119: you're already an Ubuntu member aren't you?20:07
mhall119just not Edubuntu20:07
mhall119cause I've done nothing much for it yet20:07
mhall119but that's all gonna (hopefully) change this cycle20:07
highvoltageok, previously ubuntu members got edubuntu membership for free, I can't remember if that changed with the new EC charter20:08
highvoltage(well, if they asked for it)20:08
mhall119I didn't ask for it20:08
highvoltagewell, you're stable and have been present in the community a long time now, and you've worked on edu-related packages in Ubuntu, so perhaps it's about time you ask for it :)20:09
mhall119I will, in due time20:09
highvoltageanything else we should cover in this meeting?20:10
highvoltagewe're almost at that stage where we just have to hold our breath until release :)20:10
mhall119I sent comments back to dinda on her marketing stuff20:10
mhall119I'm not sure when she had to have those done20:11
mhall119still don't know if she'll be at UDS or not20:11
highvoltageshe'll be at half of it, I just can't remember if it was the first half or second half20:12
mhall119ok, cool20:12
* highvoltage wonders where dinda is today, she's usually quite vocal20:12
highvoltagewell, I'm off to go on with work again, if anyone needs anything, feel free to poke me :)20:14
mhall119meeting over already?20:15
highvoltagemhall119: unless you have anything else? :)20:15
mhall119nope, just looking forward to seeing everyone at UDS20:15
highvoltageyes, that will be great!20:15
ElWuilMeRis mandatory to have the wiki in English to ask for membership?20:16
mhall119ElWuilMeR: it helps if your board doesn't all speak your native language20:19
highvoltageElWuilMeR: good question, we won't count it against you if it's not, but if no one is available to translate if for us or if we can't make sense out of it with google translate as a last resort, then it will be harder to evaluate your application20:19
ElWuilMeRmhall119: highvoltage thanks I will have three months before applying for membership and pass it to English then wiki20:22
=== MichealH is now known as evilMichealH
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barryhi folks.  udd meeting in 1m21:59
pooliehi there barry21:59
barryhi poolie22:00
MootBotMeeting started at 16:00. The chair is barry.22:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]22:00
* ajmitch will try & be around22:00
barryajmitch: cool22:00
barryjames_w: hi22:00
barryy'know i don't know if rockstar plans to be around for these.  thunper was last time22:01
barryslangasek: hi22:01
* slangasek waves22:01
pooliethumper is on holiday this week22:01
barry[TOPIC] agenda22:01
MootBotNew Topic:  agenda22:01
barry[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/2010010622:01
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/2010010622:01
barryi figured we'd review action items first22:02
barry[TOPIC] action items22:02
MootBotNew Topic:  action items22:02
james_walways a good idea22:02
barry   * '''poolie to confirm charline to do user studies at UDS-N'''22:02
barry 22:02
flacostehi folks22:02
pooliehi flacoste22:02
barryflacoste: hi!22:02
pooliecharline hasn't replied to my pings; i asked matthew to contact her but i still haven't heard back22:03
pooliei'll escalate to someone else22:03
pooliemaybe she's been away22:03
flacosteno she was there last week22:03
flacostehave you sent her an email?22:03
poolieyes, a couple22:03
pooliemail pings, i meant, not irc22:03
flacosteshe's kind on the opposite end of the world to you22:03
flacostei'll try to grab her tomorrow22:04
barryflacoste, poolie thanks22:04
pooliethanks, please just ask her to answer them or to call me22:04
barry   * '''poolie to organize a foyer poster'''22:04
poolierelated note, the survey is now ready to launch22:04
pooliei'll ask mrevell to turn it into production22:04
barrypoolie: very cool.  it will be nice to get some data before uds22:04
poolienot done yet; still a good idea; will do it before we go22:05
poolieflacoste: can you help me get a small bit of attention from design people?22:05
barrynp.  we can keep both on the list for next time22:05
barry* '''barry to register udd sessions at uds''' (after finding the right theme/track)22:06
barry   * '''barry to register general bzr/lp session in "app devs" theme'''22:06
flacostepoolie: for charline or something else?22:06
flacostehmm, the foyer poster22:06
flacosteforget it22:06
flacosteyou are on your own there :-)22:07
poolieok :)22:07
flacosteno way they can do something about this before UDS22:07
poolieprobably would be too long, yeah22:07
poolieit'll be nerdy but it'll be there22:07
barryposter board + fat sharpie :)22:07
barryi coordinated both with robbiew who actually scheduled the blueprints for all three session we talked about last time22:07
barryso i think we're good to go for uds sessions22:07
barry   * '''barry to make ajmitch be udd stakeholder representing REVU'''22:08
barry 22:08
ajmitchnot much to do with that one :)22:08
barry   * '''poolie to get a better graph of package import failures'''22:08
barryajmitch: no, but thanks for coming by today!22:08
pooliei see james did some of that for me22:09
barrysaw that too, thanks james_w22:09
james_wjml fixed the internal graph22:09
james_wand I produced some external ones22:09
james_walready showing some interesting results :-)22:09
pooliehottest100 is not yet graphed; i tried that but it got too many errors connecting to lp22:09
MootBotLINK received:  http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/index.html22:09
james_wsee at the bottom for the graphs22:10
barryjames_w: what's the spike?22:10
poolielp outage, i think :)22:10
james_wLP refusing to talk to us for a while22:10
poolieto judge from the errors i saw yesterday22:10
james_wI'd love it if someone could code a higher level of backoff too22:11
pooliei think adding more graphs is not a priority atm22:11
pooliei'd rather force that existing graph down to 0 and then worry about whether there are things its not measuring22:11
poolieany objections?22:11
barryagreed.  i think we can mark this one "done" for now22:12
james_wpoolie, which graph in particular, or all of the ones we have now?22:12
pooliespecifically "number of packages that failed to import"22:13
poolieit would be a bit nice to graph "hottest100" and i may yet do it, but i don't know if i'll do it before UDD22:14
barry   * '''barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c'''22:14
barrynot done. will carry over22:14
barry   * '''barry to talk to dholbach about making sure udd is well advertised in pkg guide'''22:15
barrynot done.  i'll probably wait and chat with daniel f2f @ uds22:15
barry   * '''barry/poolie to write up job announcements; barry posts to python job board, james_w/slangasek posts to debian-jobs, ubuntu-devel'''22:15
james_wnot done22:15
poolieperhaps we should have a small udd docs session at uds? maybe just informally22:15
barryi have a template almost ready for review for the python jobs board.  i'll send around a pastebin when i think it's ready22:15
slangasekI haven't been given anything to post, so haven't posted :)22:16
pooliei'm planning to do some interviews before UDS22:16
barrypoolie: good idea22:16
MootBotLINK received:  http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_BSE22:16
barrythe python jobs board has a very specific template, which is what i'm fitting the above into22:16
poolieso doing it this week or at least next week would be really good22:17
poolieplease also personally invite anyone you know with relevant skills that you'd like to work with22:17
barrypoolie: i'll have something to review by tonight or tomorrow.  debian-jobs and ubuntu-devel might need a different format22:17
poolierelated question, would anyone like to interview shortlisted candidates?22:18
pooliethanks very much barry, i really appreciate circulating it to there22:18
slangasekI don't think debian-jobs has any particular formatting requirements, fwiw22:18
barrypoolie: i'm happy to, though i probably can't grill them too much on bzr internals22:18
james_wpoolie, I would22:18
james_wthough maybe would should avoid too many interviews :-)22:19
pooliei think about 2-3 would be ok22:19
barryjames_w: maybe just make them fix a bug using udd as the first gauntlet22:19
poolieso me plus one of you plus statik22:19
poolieand write a short report on it :)22:20
barrypoolie: sounds good22:20
barrybtw, i did post it on my fb wall for all the good it did ;)22:20
barry   * '''james_w to merge bzr-debuntu to bzr-builddeb'''22:21
barrywell, not done, but sort of morphed22:21
barrybug 609186 is tracking this22:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 609186 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Really easy branching of Ubuntu packages" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/60918622:21
barrywe're going to get the uncontroversial ones into bzr 2.3 and then worry about the rest22:21
barrythat's it for the action items.  does anyone have comments to add on any of the above before we move on?22:23
james_won the poster idea from last time22:23
james_wI have been thinking for a while that one of the issues people have with using bzr-builddeb is getting the mental model of what is going on right22:23
james_wand I think I have some pictures that will help with this22:24
james_wI started putting together an ebook that I showed barry, and he suggested perhaps getting it printed to hand out at UDS22:24
james_wI thought that this was a great idea, but there are a couple of problems with it22:24
james_w1) that ebook is now on my barely-alive harddrive, so it may be lost22:24
james_w2) printing in that form would be very expensive22:25
james_wso, would something simpler be good to have22:25
james_wsay a 2-fold booklet or similar?22:25
james_wwe can still distribute a full thing electronically of course22:25
barryjames_w: definitely.  think we can get something useful on a single 8.5x11 (front & back)?  we could print that at any kinkos to pass out22:26
pooliemay also be more likely to be read in the short-attention-span environment of uds22:26
poolieperhaps we could also put that content on the poster, along with a description of what we're doing and who to talk to22:26
james_wbarry, I haven't figured out how to present the information in that format yet, but I don't think it would be impossible to get something22:27
barrybe sure to include the url to the top udd wiki page22:27
james_wI'm not sure a poster is the right format for what I was working on, as I'm not sure many people would digest it from a poster22:27
james_wbut if we can get something that works as a poster that would be great22:27
james_wI wish I had the start of the content to show you all now, I'll try and rescue it and send it around22:28
barryjames_w: i was thinking about something we could (at least) hand out at the educating-users session22:28
pooliejames_w: next time, duplicity backups to s3 :)22:28
pooliefrom cron :)22:28
barryjames_w: i forget - did you email it to me?22:28
james_wbarry, no, I don't think so22:29
james_wand I don't think I sent you the source either?22:29
barryah.  oh well22:29
barryno, pretty sure you didn't22:29
james_wah, as it was IRC it is probably on the web somewhere22:29
james_wyes http://people.canonical.com/~jamesw/guide.pdf22:30
barryso for action item wrap up: poolie will continue with poster and james will send around his ebook, and (?) get it into a format for passing out at uds22:31
barrycool, moving on...22:32
poolieand the rest of you will circulate/recommend the job ad22:32
barrypoolie: +122:32
barry[TOPIC] MVO feedback22:32
MootBotNew Topic:  MVO feedback22:32
barryso, i had a brief mumble chat w/mvo today and we talked about udd a bit.  he had some interesting feedback that i'd like to share.  i'll paste the points here and then we can discuss...22:33
barry   * Fast and easy for simple case (version bump only)22:33
barry   * upstream tarball is all you need (no source branch; debian/ only)22:33
barry   * `dch -i` + build and that's it22:33
barry   * people who are only packagers don't need full source22:33
barryso mvo was most concerned with packages who aren't developing the code, or the many people who just need to do a version bump.22:34
james_wversion bump with no changes?22:34
barryhis concern was that it needs to be at least as fast to do that with udd as it is now22:34
barryjames_w: yep22:34
pooliethat's a good test22:34
barryor, just grab debian version and bump22:34
james_wif we have build-from-branch then we can make it super-cheap22:34
slangasekyes, it does need to be fast - I think that ties in with my concerns about having easy-to-configure mirrors of bzr branches22:35
james_wthen you don't even need to get the branch even, just commit remotely and request a build22:35
poolieit'd be good to make sure they're documented, then see how simple the documentation looks and how long it takes to execute22:35
barryjames_w: can you elaborate?  mvo's main concern was downloading the source branch when a lot of folks (currently) only use debian/22:35
james_wor we make it a non-issue by implementing rebuild support in soyuz :-)22:35
* barry looks to flacoste 22:36
james_wbarry, you don't /need/ the data locally to do that, Launchpad is the source and target, and so if the pieces are there we can just ask Launchpad to do the operation22:36
james_wthat will be faster than the current approach of apt-get source + dput22:37
barryjames_w: so no need to branch locally to dch -i?22:37
flacostei don't understand how rebuild helps here?22:37
slangasekbarry: I do disagree strongly with mvo's conclusion that packagers only need debian/; that guarantees that if that package ever needs patching to the upstream sources, you end up with a two-step merge (VCS merge, followed by a quilt merge).  debian/-only VCS branches drive me crazy!22:38
james_wbarry, we can remove that need, as bazaar's vcs means that you can commit remotely if you want22:38
james_wbarry, so we can simulate dch -i + commit remotely, and then request a build22:38
james_wor, as I said, rebuild support makes it all a non-issue really, as you just ask soyuz to rebuild without a source change, so you don't need apt-get source, dput or bzr22:39
slangasekjames_w: "without a source change"?22:40
barryi think i see.  this is definitely a workflow not covered in the current wiki docs22:40
flacosteisn't a version upgrade a source code change?22:40
slangasekmy understanding is that "version bump only" refers to "upstream version bump only"... where you don't care about the old upstream source because you're forklift replacing it for the upload you're preparing22:40
james_w<james_w> version bump with no changes?22:41
james_w<barry> james_w: yep22:41
poolieso the top level issue is, they want to just pull in a new upstream version, and that should be as fast and simple as possible? or no?22:41
james_wI read that as "no-change rebuild", not "new upstream version"22:41
flacosteright, that's the confusion22:41
flacostebarry which one is it?22:41
barrywell, now i'm not 100% sure what mvo was getting at.  he kind of mentioned both scenarios22:42
james_wbecause "dch -i + build" isn't all you need for a new upstream version22:42
slangasekjames_w: it is for /many/ packages22:42
james_wno, because dch -i gives you the same upstream version number as you had before :-)22:42
slangasekoh, I interpreted that as pseudocode, sorry :)22:43
pooliewhy would they want a no-change rebuild? to rebuild on new dependencies?22:43
james_wpoolie, yes22:43
flacostefor the rebuild use-case, i agree that the easiest thing is to implement it in LP directly22:43
james_wthere are many reasons why it can happen, but there are several hundred occurences per-cycle22:43
barryi'm sure mvo mentioned the "new upstream version" scenario22:44
james_w"new upstream version" is harder, I agree, and we should ensure that it is optimised too22:44
flacosteespecially, if he was referring to the debian/ branch packaging22:44
pooliethat seems fairly obviously like the first thing someone might want to do in udd22:44
barryyes, he specifically mentioned debian/-only branches22:45
james_wwhere there are no patches, I would argue that we are /almost/ as efficient as the old way, discounting the overhead of bzr branch/push22:45
james_wwe just need someone to implement watch-file support in merge-upstream22:45
barryjames_w: that's something i'd like to attempt22:45
james_wbarry, great, I'm happy to help22:46
poolieso this should live in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation/NewUpstreamVersion22:46
james_wwhere there are patches, then I think both methods are terrible, but I would think that the old method is currently better there22:46
poolieand then you would do https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation/UploadingAPackage ?22:46
james_wbecause it's less likely to get you really stuck22:47
james_wpoolie, yes22:47
barrypoolie: i'm not sure i have a good enough sense of what to add there for this scenario22:47
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
poolieok, so what are we going to do on this topic, beyond this meeting?22:49
pooliejust reaffirm that that story is important?22:49
poolieperhaps james and/or myself should go over those pages with mvo and see where the problems are?22:50
barrywe should make sure mvo comes to the user feedback session at uds so we can mine this topic more22:50
james_wbarry, +122:50
barrypoolie: yes, that would be great, but i think f2f @ uds will be the most productive22:50
james_wto me this reaffirms the importance of having a good patch handling story, and speed of bzr+LP22:51
barryjames_w: big +1 to both of those22:51
barryso i'll contact mvo and invite him to the session.  i'm sure he'll be happy to join us22:51
barryanything else on this topic?22:52
poolieperhaps we can have footnote-like links to bugs from the udd doc pages, pointing to ways they could be better22:52
pooliei think that's it for me22:52
barrygood idea.  i have a place for those i think22:53
barry[TOPIC] AOB22:54
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB22:54
barryanybody have anything not on the agenda?22:54
barrygoing once...22:54
james_wI think we are missing the one thing that we want to fix first22:54
pooliethat'd be a good recurring item to add22:55
poolieany nominations for most-wanted bug?22:55
barryagreed.  i'll add that to the ongoing agenda22:55
barrywatch file support?22:56
james_w+1, it's fairly small, easy and well-contained, and will have a big usability win22:56
barry(though i don't see a bug open on that yet)22:56
barrycool.  i'll open a bug and see if i can put together a branch22:56
james_wthen we can move on to something larger next meeting :-)22:56
barry[ACTION] barry to open bug for watch file support22:57
MootBotACTION received:  barry to open bug for watch file support22:57
james_wbug 29527422:57
ubottuLaunchpad bug 295274 in bzr-builddeb "merge-upstream shouldn't require --version when debian/watch is present" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29527422:57
barryah, it's on bzr-builddeb not udd22:57
james_wfeel free to add a udd task22:58
barryso, if there's nothing else.  meet again in 2 weeks?  (that'll be right before uds so we can do last minute planning)22:58
MootBotMeeting finished at 17:00.23:00
barrythanks everyone.  see you in 2 weeks23:00
slangasekthanks :)23:00
poolieoh, btw, i'll be away the week after uds, which would be the 2nd meeting from now23:00
pooliei'll ask someone else from bzr to come to this in my place23:01
barrypoolie: k.  flacoste i do think we need to sort out who will be the launchpad stakeholder.  if not rockstar, then thumper?  if not him, then you?23:01
* barry -> dinner23:02
flacostebarry: i'll talk to thumper23:02
barryflacoste: thanks23:02
barryjust let me know23:02
james_wthanks everyone23:02
flacostesee you around23:03

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