[00:01] <persia> ianm_, Most JACK apps don't support pulse: the strong argument for JACK is sample-accurate synchronisation from multiple sources, which is important for mixing.  Pulse can compete with JACK for latency, but doesn't have the alignment API (unless I missed something somewhere)
[00:12] <ianm_> persia: I see, thanks
[01:37] <Fezzler> Is there an ASIO4ALL for Ubuntu?
[02:04] <persia> I don't believe so, but I don7t beleive one is required.  I strongly suspect ALSA performs an essentially similar function.
[02:05] <ronj> yes, alsa/ffado do what you expect
[02:05] <ronj> Fezzler, the audio stack under linux is quite different from what you know under window
[02:05] <persia> Oh, right, FFADO also (although the few bits I found searching about asio4all didn't seem to indicate Fireware support)
[11:54] <sladen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/10.10release_notes  <<--- linked in the release notes is 404
[11:56] <persia> ScottL, ^^
[11:56] <persia> holstein, Maybe you know?
[11:56] <persia> sladen, -devel is often a better-targeted channel to catch some folk: this is mostly a support channel (but it doesn't matter this time: not enough conflicting traffic)
[12:46] <BrendanT> I'm confused, ubuntu studio 10.10 is apparently available for download on softpedia but ubuntustudio.org says nothing.?
[12:47] <persia> Yeah, the Ubuntu Studio release team is sleeping.  Should get updated soon.
[12:48] <persia> It's released, but the website update is waiting for the right people to wake up.
[12:49] <BrendanT> Oh ok? Can I ask some questions about it for home use that I can't seem to find the answers for on google?
[12:49] <persia> Yes.  That's the entire purpose of this channel.  No promises anyone here happens to know the answer.
[12:50] <sladen> persia: which -devel?
[12:51] <persia> sladen, #ubuntustudio-devel, but the folk you need are likely a couple hours from being active.
[12:51] <persia> (and the key folk are probably also in #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-release, etc.)
[12:51] <BrendanT> It's only nooby stuff. I'm wondering If ubuntustudio does all the things normal things that ubuntu does + the multimedia things because i'd still like all the things in the main release but really want all the audio apps that are nicely setup in studio
[12:52] <persia> Do you already have Ubuntu installed?
[12:54] <BrendanT> Yeah but I'm doing a fresh install because i've broken heaps of things and it freazes up alot. i heard i can install the studio packages from synaptic on a standard ubuntu but does it work just as good?
[12:54] <persia> Yes, absolutely, without question.
[12:54] <persia> Now, to temper that statement, some users of Studio have very tight latency requirements, and push their hardware to the limit.
[12:55] <persia> These users are better served by uninstalling the integration with instant messaging, automatic network detection, etc.: basically all the stuff that might grab your processor at an inconvenient moment.
[12:55] <persia> if you install from the Studio media, these things aren't installed by default.
[12:55] <persia> Plus you get a slightly different theme.
[12:55] <BrendanT> Isn't the real time kernel for stopping those things?
[12:55] <persia> (not that it's terribly hard to change themes or anything)
[12:56] <persia> There's no realtime kernel available for 10.10.  Further, I don't believe most people need it.
[12:56] <BrendanT> Oh why not? i thought it was crucial for keeping the audio processes from being interupted?
[12:57] <persia> If you're really pushing your hardware tight enough to require realtime, your chance of XRUNS due to the inability of the HW to keep up is likely higher than your chance of delay: JACK enforces sample-accuracy even with some latency.
[12:57] <persia> Doesn't make that much difference, assuming one isn't also trying to compile the kernel or something.
[12:58] <persia> Mind you, if one is running on limited hardware, or trying to do 18 things at once, etc. one might want to override some things.
[12:58] <persia> that said, if one is doing that, it's probably time to think about a hardware upgrade.
[12:59] <BrendanT> Ok - sort of understand -. Well Its all just for playing around with at the moment because my m-audio fast track ultra sadly doesnt have a linux driver so i have to go to windows to use it.
[13:00] <persia> There are a few niche cases where one does need realtime, perhaps interacting with out-of-box analog systems with very high fidelity, but at the cost of an audio interface and preamps that can handle that, the price of a modern processor is not very high.
[13:00] <persia> For playing around, there's absolutely no value to realtime: just make sure to turn off the more annoying time-wasters when doing complex stuff.
[13:01] <BrendanT> Could i make a separate user to log into when i want to do 'complex stuff' that didnt run the time-wasters or do they all start up no matter what?
[13:02] <persia> You might be able to create a separate user, and turn off some of the indicator stuff.
[13:02] <persia> But I'm not convinced you can turn off Network Manager except on a system-wide basis.
[13:02] <BrendanT> hmm
[13:03] <persia> Not processing mail, not running gwibber, etc. is easy.
[13:03] <persia> But really, don't worry about it.  Install the stuff you want and play.
[13:03] <persia> If you end up discovering that this one effect you really want isn't happening because you don't have the resources, start looking at how you can conserve resources.
[13:04] <BrendanT> Ok. so just install the ubuntustudio-audio package?
[13:04] <persia> That will get you the standard set of audio tools.
[13:05] <persia> You might also want ubuntustudio-audio-plugins
[13:05] <persia> If your menu is getting too cluttered, ubuntustudio-menu might help some.
[13:08] <BrendanT> hm it appears to be a link to a bunch of other packages already available in the normal ubuntu
[13:08] <persia> We call it a "metapackage", but yes, that's what it is.
[13:09] <BrendanT> so ubuntu studio is just a different assortment of packages? rather than new features?
[13:09] <persia> Ubuntu Studio is just a flavour of Ubuntu, much like Ubuntu Desktop.  A selection of some of the packages in Ubuntu that some folk try to make sure work together.
[13:10] <BrendanT> ok i thought there might have been later versions of jack, alsa and things like that because i notice some apps can be very old in the repositories
[13:10] <persia> No, it's all the same thing.
[13:11] <BrendanT> I'd like to be able to play music through banshee at the same time as i have say, ardour, using jack but jack seems to cut off anything else from playing.
[13:11] <persia> There's been some changes in direction, so this release wasn't as focused as some of the past ones.  We've a new track now, and an increasingly clear target for 11.04
[13:11] <persia> You can install pulseaudio-jack, or you can use two different sound cards.
[13:12] <BrendanT> but all changes you did would still be packaged for the normal ubuntu?
[13:12] <persia> Absolutely.  That's the point.
[13:12] <BrendanT> pulseaudio-module-jack ?
[13:13] <BrendanT> There is no pulseaudio-jack package
[13:13] <persia> Yes, that's one of the ways you can make pulse and jack work together.
[13:13] <persia> Sorry: my mistake.
[13:13] <BrendanT> im using alsa i believe
[13:13] <persia> Personally, I really recommend the two-cards solution.
[13:13] <persia> Banshee is using ALSA directly, without pulse?  That's not default.
[13:14] <BrendanT> oh i thought it was, i dont know
[13:14] <BrendanT> whats the difference between pulseaudio and alsa?
[13:15] <BrendanT> also, i dont have 2 sound cards unless someone makes a driver for my fasttrack ultra
[13:15] <persia> USB headphones are increasingly inexpensive, but yeah, good drivers would be better.
[13:15] <persia> pulse and ALSA are different layers.
[13:16] <persia> pulse is a software mixing daemon that lets applications play stuff and then gets it to the right sound cards, resampling or mixing as needed.
[13:16] <persia> ALSA is both a userspace library and a set of drivers that provide a unified interface to many sorts of sound cards.
[13:17] <BrendanT> where could i go to throw a wad of cash towards anyone willing to make the driver for it?
[13:17] <persia> most applications talk to pulse (directly, through ALSA compat layer, or through OSS compat layer), or to JACK.  pulse and JACK can talk to audio interfaces (including ALSA interfaces, FFADO interfaces, BlueZ interfaces, etc.).
[13:18] <persia> You can't really.  There's a couple groups of folk that will do it for free if someone provides specifications.
[13:18] <persia> You could definitely hire folk (and there are folk that are available for hire) to work on it, if you had specifications and the free places took too long.
[13:19] <persia> But before you can get anywhere, you need specifications.  M-Audio tends to be good about Linux support, so if there isn't any, someone else probably owns some part of the device and won't share.
[13:20] <persia> I'd recommend talking to M-Audio first, and trying to understand the situation.  If it looks like it just needs developer-time, then you probably want to hire an ALSA engineer.  Talking to the ALSA folk could probably get you recommendations to a good forum to hire such a person.
[13:21] <BrendanT> damn seems like a big job
[13:22] <persia> The hard part is usually tracking down why there isn't a driver: lots of coordination, and careful friendly work with hardware companies.
[13:22] <persia> Once you know why, if it's fixable, that part is usually easy.
[13:22] <persia> But some stuff isn't fixable, unfortunately (like patents on stuff by companies now out of business, with the patent farm owned by a known litigious firm, and the company making stuff using a grandfathered license, etc.)
[13:25] <BrendanT> Well M-Audio certainly aren't out of business.
[13:25] <persia> No, but they have been around for a while, and absorbed MidiMan years back, etc.  It's hard to know what components are in their hardware, or if the companies that make those components have changed, etc.
[13:26] <persia> Anyway, go ask them.  If you start with the assumption that they would be happy to grant you drivers, and you make clear that you aren't asking them to do the development, just trying to understand the legal restrictions, you have a decent chance.
[13:29] <BrendanT> It'd be very difficult for me to ask it as I'm terrible at writing emails and such and dont understand very well what im even asking for, but ill try. should i email them or make a thread on their forum asking people if a driver could be made and say that im a linux user and cannot use the device with a driver etc...
[13:30] <persia> And maybe say that you're willing to hire a kernel developer, but are seeking documentation *OR* an explanation why the documentation can't be distributed.
[13:31] <BrendanT> hiring a developer is probably a bit much, wouldnt it cost alot?
[13:32] <persia> Depends on the developer :)  Like I said before, if you have docs, there are some developers who are happy to write drivers in exchange for a device.
[13:33] <persia> Mind you, you might not want to do this for a high-end digital mixing console :)
[13:33] <BrendanT> http://www.64studio.com/node/699
[13:34] <BrendanT> I think alot of other people have probably already tried
[13:35] <BrendanT> I might have to sell it for something. Do you know any similar device that works on linux?
[13:36] <persia> It's a 4x8 USB interface?
[13:37] <BrendanT> 8x8 apparently
[13:38] <persia> I don't happen to know of such a thing offhand.  My biggest is 4x6.  I'd have to refer to alsa-project.org as the best source of information.
[13:39] <BrendanT> what do those numbers mean?
[13:39] <persia> You'll likely get best support if you find something with "class-complaint" USB drivers.
[13:39] <persia> inputs/outputs
[13:40] <BrendanT> ahk figured. apparently my device is 'compliant' i think but becuase its a bit fancy it doesnt quite work
[13:40] <BrendanT> http://www.musicador.com/uploads/2007/12/m-audio-fast-track-ultra_front-rear.jpg
[13:41] <persia> Hrm?  If it's "fancy" or requires "special" drivers, it's not "class-compliant"
[13:42] <ScottL> BrendanT, there are many knowledgeable people, with quite a varied background, on #opensourcemusicians, that would be a good place to ask about a similar audio interface that works on linux as well
[13:42] <persia> "Class-compliant" has a special meaning for USB devices: it means that the HW works with the base class specification in the USB docs, so no special drivers are required.
[13:42] <ScottL> BrendanT, if you don't mind opening your computer you could get an m-audio delta44 or delta66 (this will also give you reduced latency due to the PCI card connection)
[13:43] <BrendanT> ok nvm only the fast track pro is listed, not ultra. still there is only a few people in the world that have gotten the pro version to work because it needs a patch from alsa to work, thats what i read anyway
[13:43] <BrendanT> im on a laptop
[13:43] <persia> If you can find out which patch, it might be sortable.
[13:43] <ScottL> right, how about a firewire card?  i believe those to be better supported
[13:44] <ScottL> but i agree with persia, you can try the patch first for the hardware you already have
[13:45] <BrendanT> na i've read heaps about it and it seams that nobody can get it to work so wont bother with that dead end road.