[00:25] <paultag> Heyya persia 
[00:25] <paultag> 'afternoon
[00:25] <paultag> Now that the -M cycle is all set, reporting in for the -N cycle :)
[00:29] <persia> paultag, Hey.  I expect ScottL will be giving us guidance on what to do in the next couple weeks.
[00:29] <paultag> awesome
[00:29] <persia> For now, best thing is probably to catch the bugs reported by early installers, and try to get those sorted so that we don't have to think about them later, once we're busy.
[00:29] <paultag> persia, any routine tasks that should be done no matter what?
[00:29] <paultag> Aye, sounds good
[00:30] <persia> Two big sources of routine stuff are triaging/closing user-reported bugs and ensuring we're as closely in sync with the debian-multimedia crew as possible (being in sync means we don't need to upload twice: we can just sync bugfixes)
[00:31] <paultag> roger, makes sense
[00:31] <paultag> persia, I'm not MOTU. Should I just file requests for syncs and patches to Debian?
[00:32] <paultag> I have a pretty good relationship upstream
[00:32] <persia> Well, can't do much with Debian now: it's frozen for squeeze release.
[00:32] <paultag> persia, sure is, but that does not rule out experimental uploads
[00:32] <persia> If there are outstanding patches in Ubuntu or Debian that aren't yet upstream, getting those upstream would usefully streamline updates in the future.
[00:32] <paultag> roger
[00:33] <persia> Actually, often an experimental upload isn't even needed: just get a commit to the debian-multimedia VCS.
[00:33] <persia> Then the next Debian upload becomes a sync into Ubuntu.
[00:33] <paultag> righto
[00:33] <persia> We're not in much of a hurry at the beginning of a cycle.
[00:34] <paultag> aye, but I know how crazy it gets at the end of a cycle so I try and get stuff done early :)
[00:34] <persia> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html is a summary of current discrepancies between Ubuntu and Debian for our packages.
[00:34] <paultag> Oh, killer
[00:35] <persia> Looks like about 40 packages need investigation.
[00:36] <persia> Err, 50.
[00:36]  * persia gives up on trying to do math
[00:36] <paultag> :)
[00:36] <persia> Note that sometimes there is a requirement for a difference between Debian and Ubuntu.  Lots of times we want different Recommends: to avoid getting other things on the images, or we need to support something from other parts of Ubuntu that differs from Debian.
[00:37] <paultag> persia, a lot of our ubuntuN uploads ( > sid ) do some good fixes -- do you know if it's common practice to send that to the BTS ?
[00:37] <persia> I don't know if it's common.  I know it's encouraged.
[00:37] <paultag> aye
[00:37] <persia> *but*
[00:37] <paultag> persia, I'll see if I can't push through sending the ones they'd want upstream
[00:37] <persia> It's always worth attempting to replicate the issue in a Debian environment (or with upstream), and then sending the targeted patch (not the entire diff) to Debian and/or upstream.
[00:38] <paultag> Cool. I have a few VMs ( stable / testing / unstable ) and a netbook with testing on it
[00:38] <paultag> should not be too hard :)
[00:38] <persia> Perfect!
[00:38] <paultag> persia, I maintain flux in Debian, I am pretty cool with the process up there
[00:38] <paultag> fluxbox *
[00:39] <persia> heh, indeed you would be.
[00:39] <paultag> :)
[00:39] <paultag> Well I'll get on reviewing some of this stuff
[00:39] <paultag> thanks persia :)
[00:39] <persia> if you want to get serious about Ubuntu Studio stuff, you probably also want to get involved with Debian-Multimedia
[00:39] <paultag> I'll send them an email :)
[00:41] <paultag> There we are, #debian-multimedia on oftc. Nice :)
[00:47] <paultag> and on the mailing list. Ready to rock.
[02:00] <ScottL> paultag and persia, that is awesome!
[02:01] <ScottL> paultag, i had also began to look at this: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/tag/ubuntustudio
[02:01] <paultag> killer ScottL 
[02:01] <paultag> ScottL, I'll see if I can chip away there too ( after I'm done jamming ;) )
[02:01] <ScottL> this has all packages in REVU that ubuntu studio would be interested in, many of these have been not making much progress
[02:01] <ScottL> paultag, :)
[02:02] <ScottL> i was going to talk with quadrispro about getting them into debian first but he's on vacation (and i was slow about it as well)
[02:02] <paultag> ScottL, hopefully I can foster some kind of relationship upstream
[02:03] <persia> Some upstreams for the REVU stuff hang around in this channel
[02:23] <scott-upstairs> persia, ubuntu studio website - https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-resources/website
[02:27] <persia> scott-upstairs, Nice find.  Are you good for getting it updated?
[02:31] <scott-upstairs> Not tonight, I've used most of my free, available time for the evening, persia
[02:31] <scott-upstairs> but perhaps tomorrow
[02:32] <scott-upstairs> i'll try to snoop around in the package nonetheless tonight, just to understand where and what
[02:32] <persia> That looks like a drupal theme and some scrap bits.  I think we need to change the content (which would involve logging into drupal, etc.)
[02:37] <scott-upstairs> doh, then i sent an erroneous email to the -devel mailing list
[02:37] <scott-upstairs> however, i also sent an email to eric and cory asking for direction, hopefully one of them responds relatively soon
[02:38] <scott-upstairs> and of course i will need to mail the -devel list again to correct myself
[04:41] <ScottL> a new and interested website mockup, under 'audio horizons' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp#Audio%20Horizons
[04:42] <ScottL> has some promise i believe
[04:45] <persia> I know I said I missed blue, but this subtly the wrong blue, and the color revamp seemed to align with the mission revamp, etc.
[04:46] <persia> I do like the bit about making the -video and -graphics bits focused towards an -audio target.  I'm not convinced it's the right long-term solution, but it helps build a sense of coordination to the selection of stuff in the short term, and expansion should be easier once there is a well-working set of procedures for each bit (docs, testing, app selection, app maintainence, etc.)
[06:28] <jussi> I think one of the things we need to keep is the dark theme, and thats why that doesnt work for me. The dark theme has always been an attraction for users, be they studio people or not, and I see no reason to change that. 
[07:28]  * abogani waves
[07:28] <abogani> Where could I upload some image file for let some users see it?
[08:03] <jussi> abogani: imagebin.ca
[08:04] <abogani> jussi: Thanks
[08:05] <jussi> yw.
[08:05] <jussi> btw, some new music from my friends band, if anyone is interested: http://www.myspace.com/theriffkinsband
[08:58] <astraljava> ScottL: I really like the Audio Horizons mockup! Quite a refreshing change from all the dark themes.
[09:06] <jussi> astraljava: so, what do you think of the riffkins?
[09:06] <jussi> astraljava: and Hai!
[09:16] <astraljava> jussi: Hello. :) I'll check them soon, no opinions yet. :)
[12:50] <scott-work> is there any reason why this would not be a good candidate to run ubuntu studio  http://www.surpluscomputers.com/349849/rackable-systems-dual-xeon-2.8.html
[12:51] <persia> scott-work, What do you intend to use it for?  That's not a quiet box, so if you don't have some noise isolation, you don't want it around microphones.
[12:53] <scott-work> i thought it might be an interesting experiment to make a rackable ubuntu studio computer, i presume in the vein that daniel james has done things at one point or another
[12:53] <scott-work> i realize that the hard drive is smallish and I would need a firewire audio interface most likely
[12:53] <persia> I'd probably look at http://www.surpluscomputers.com/350052/rackable-systems-dual-xeon-3.0.html if purchasing from that provider.  The extra space will change the fan sound from a jet-engine to a mere roar.
[12:53] <scott-work> and i might run out of firewire ports possible, if the mouse and keyboard need to be on firewire
[12:53] <persia> And you might be able to do tricks with lower-power Xeons, baffling, etc.
[12:54] <persia> Mouse and Keyboard never need to be on firewire: HID devices are notoriously bad at handling multipath network routing.
[12:56] <scott-work> persia: sorry, meant usb, not firewire
[12:57] <persia> You did see those were USB 1.1 ports, so completely unsuitable for anything other than HID, right?
[12:57] <persia> That box can't handle USB audio, USB hard drives, etc.
[12:57] <scott-work> i'm unsure what HID is exactly, but i think you are trying to tell me ... ah yes, you are ;)
[12:58] <scott-work> i tend to avoid usb audio interfaces anyways
[12:58] <scott-work> i would rather pay more for firewire (although that isn't necessarily as true anymore)
[12:58] <scott-work> or i would prefer to use PCI card foremost (best latency, less driver headaches with the right card)
[12:58] <persia> Human Interface Devices: keyboards, mice, tablets, BCIs, trackpads, trackballs, presentation controllers, joysticks, knobs, and other similar things not actually on my desk.
[13:00] <persia> I suspect you could probably handle printers and scanners over 1.1 as well, as long as you mostly printed stuff that had a short postscript notation on a postscript printer, and scanned at low resolution (~300dpi) with some patience.
[13:02] <scott-work> ah, learned a new acronym today
[13:03] <scott-work> if this box is to be mine for studio work, i would not need printing or scanning capabilities, but i might end up giving it to someone else as well....i'll think about that some more i suppose
[13:03] <persia> I read a recent discussion about USB Audio vs. Firewire.  Seems that newer USB is actually better than older (4- or 6- wire) firewire.
[13:04] <scott-work> yes!  i was reading that, it's going to grossly effect my beliefs paradigm, LOL
[13:04] <persia> Well, unless you're doing cool multi-device FW routing rather than just pushing everything into the computer.
[13:04] <scott-work> can you give an example of "cool multi-device FW routing"?
[13:04] <persia> Just take care: there's lots of older USB out there (like that server, or many audio interfaces (and *heaps* of MIDI interfaces).
[13:05] <persia> Actually, that server can probably handle USB-MIDI just fine.
[13:05] <persia> So, you have this synth and you have this computer and you have this Mackie FW mixer.
[13:05] <persia> And you use the computer to send MIDI-over-FW to the synth, and also run local tone generators (perhaps a drum machine).
[13:06] <persia> And you connect your guitar with DI and A/D to the mixer.
[13:06] <persia> So the sounds from the external synth are sent over FW to the mixer, but never hit the computer.
[13:06] <persia> Yamaha has a lot of cool software to make this work (but their linux client hasn't been updated since 2004, sadly, and doesn't build anymore).
[13:07] <persia> FFADO has some (limited) support for routing, but doesn't have any discovery interface enabled.
[13:08] <persia> Explaining rather than giving an example: USB is master/slave whereas Firewire is Peer-to-Peer.
[13:08] <persia> If you have more than two Firewire devices on the bus, and they all have good software stacks, you can do Peer-Peer-Peer... so that no single device needs to carry all the bandwidth (and you can do looping topologies to optimise traffic if you have congestion)
[13:09] <persia> Whereas with USB, some device needs to be at the centre of everything, and that device needs sufficient IO bandwidth to handle everything else simultaneously.
[13:12] <persia> Anyway, been up too long.
[13:14] <persia> Oh: small note for the avoidance of misinformation: the *reason* yamaha's linux client hasn't been updated since then is that Yamaha is still using that code on their linux-based workstations, whereas we have changed ABI to lose compatibility (at least, last I heard).  it's not about Yamaha not supporting linux, or not sharing code, or similar.
[13:23]  * scott-work is reading backscroll now, been out in the shop at work
[13:25] <scott-work> i understand more about FW routing now
[13:26] <scott-work> persia: when you get up again, can we discuss the new proposed natty audio metapackages?  i have some concerns about installation logistics with an ubuntustudio-audio-base metapackage/task
[13:29] <persia> Let's do that now: I might want to stop at some point, but I'd rather not having it hanging over me.
[13:29] <persia> What are your concerns?
[13:30] <scott-work> if we separate the -base from either -generating or -recording then we would need have two options for installation:
[13:30] <scott-work> 1. -base is an option for the user to select and tasksel to install
[13:31] <scott-work> 2. we use some logic in the installation process so that if either -generating or -recording is selected it automagickly installs -base as well
[13:31] <scott-work> i think #1 includes an extra step that might cause problems for users (they forget to select it)
[13:31] <scott-work> and i don't know how to do #2
[13:32] <scott-work> my only suggested solution is to take all the packages included in -base and include them in both, -recording and -generating
[13:32] <persia> For 2: I'd probably make -generating and -recording depend on base in STRUCTURE in the seeds, and not bother actually defining a -base task.
[13:32] <scott-work> and i would expect that the installation process is smart enough to realise they are duplicative
[13:32] <persia> Just have two overlapping tasks (-generating and -recording) from three seeds.
[13:33] <persia> overlap is fine: apt is smart enough to do the right thing.
[13:33]  * scott-work sent release declaration to distrowatch
[13:33] <scott-work> all the other *buntu variants all seem to hit distrowatch at the same time, i wonder if we can get on that list so it happens automatically
[13:37] <scott-work> persia: why do you say that two tasks are "overlapping" from three seeds?
[13:37] <persia> So, each seed can declare that it ought be a task.
[13:38] <persia> And in debian/rules in the metapackage source, one can declare which seeds become metapackages.
[13:38] <persia> In the seed collection branch, there is a file named "STRUCTURE" which allows one to define dependencies between seeds.
[13:38] <scott-work> i have STRUCTURE in front of me now
[13:39]  * scott-work keeps a manilla folder with certain time-based pertinant documentation, ala the seeds
[13:39] <persia> If there are two seeds, each of which happens to declare a task, and they contain the same package, apt will properly sort it out so that the package is only installed once if both tasks are installed (as will all the other package managers)
[13:40] <scott-work> okay, so you are saying that "the same package" in this case might be the -base metapackage :)
[13:40] <persia> If two seeds both declare the same dependency in STRUCTURE (e.g. both ubuntu/desktop and kubuntu/desktop have a dependency on platform/desktop-common), and both define tasks, those tasks can be said to overlap.
[13:40] <scott-work> i was thinking in the lower paradigm of all the packages in -base might be listed in both of the other metapackages
[13:40] <persia> At the task and metapackage layer, that's precisely how it would work.
[13:41] <persia> For simplicity of maintenance, we'd want to rely on germinate to actually handle that, and use a common seed for the -base stuff, which had no associated task or metapackage.
[13:41] <persia> And in STRUCTURE we'd have the seeds that we want to overlap depend on that.
[13:41] <scott-work> right, like ubuntustudio-controls, i believe, which is pulled in from ubuntustudio-audio currently
[13:42] <scott-work> but ubuntustudio-controls is NOT a task
[13:42] <persia> Right, it's a package.
[13:43] <persia> So that package would be listed in ubuntustudio/base and ubuntustudio/generating would depend on ubuntustudio/base in STRUCTURE
[13:43] <persia> so germinate would track the dependency, and, if ubuntustudio/generating created a task, include ubuntustudio-controls in that task.
[13:44] <scott-work> so, the STRUCTURE file would say something like:
[13:44] <scott-work> audio-generating: desktop base
[13:44] <persia> right.
[13:45] <scott-work> audio-recording: desktop base
[13:45] <scott-work> cool :)
[13:45] <persia> But be careful with "desktop": we don't want to break things for users who want to install a task on another desktop (e.g. Ubuntu Desktop or Xubuntu Desktop)
[13:45] <persia> They may not want some of our Desktop stuff.
[13:46] <scott-work> i included "desktop" because it was already in the ubuntu studio STRUCTURE file
[13:46] <persia> As an example, it's absolutely correct.  I just caution you about the specific one :)
[13:46] <persia> Also, be careful with the nomenclature.  You might want something like:
[13:46] <persia> generation: audio
[13:46] <persia> recording: audio
[13:47] <persia> Because "base" is the kind of thing that might be found in the platform seed collection.
[13:48] <persia> Any other concerns?
[13:52] <scott-work> not really, i feel like you have more of a handle and understanding that i, but at least i have a general direction if not all the technical specifics
[13:53] <persia> Cool.  Continue to ask me questions about it as they arise :)
[13:53] <scott-work> okay, thank you again
[13:53] <persia> No, thank you for making this happen.  I'm more than happy to help, but I never have the time to do as much as I'd like.
[13:54]  * persia often fails at even documenting how to do stuff so other folk can do them
[14:20] <scott-work> i noticed that natty seeds are up: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natty
[14:20] <scott-work> i am presuming this means we can start making modifications to the code now :)
[14:26] <rlameiro> scott-work: ping
[14:26] <scott-work> hi rlameiro :)
[14:26] <rlameiro> I am testing gnome shel right now
[14:27] <rlameiro> using empathy....
[14:27] <rlameiro> it is actually not so bad, however, i will need to test it with audio software
[14:28] <scott-work> is gnome shell really gnome3 or is it something in between ?
[14:28] <rlameiro> shell is something on top of gnome
[14:29] <rlameiro> its a windows manager, plus toolbar replacement
[14:31] <rlameiro> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/CapturaEcra.png
[14:32] <rlameiro> it is a little weird to find the way over here, it looks like some integration is missing
[14:45] <scott-work> interesting, and a little strange :/  but i suppose all new things are like that
[14:46] <scott-work> rlameiro: i see "seg out 11, etc"   i presume "out" is Octubre or October and that "seg" is Monday ?
[14:47] <rlameiro> seg is a short for segunda-feira that means monday, yes
[14:48] <rlameiro> I should remeber that the screnshot shows the menu/tolbar to select a file or a programm, after selecting it will maximaze and look almost like before
[19:11] <scott-work> JFo: any movement on helping abogani get the -lowlatency kernel into the repositories for natty?
[22:23] <paultag> hey, persia, do you play anything?
[22:24] <paultag> I was just talking with a few others in -community, and I think I can find a few people who want to cover some music and CC it
[22:24] <paultag> I'm pretty sure this is something ubuntu studio would be badass for
[22:24] <paultag> esp. with the new site redesign etc
[22:30] <ronj> TheMuso, ScottL_, I'd like to help with -lowlatency in Natty. Right now I'm in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime under the table as {Packaging, Bug triage, Testing, Video Driver Testing} on Natty -lowlatency i386. Can I add myself to the official matrix with these roles?
[22:35] <scott-work> ronj: absolutely!
[22:35] <scott-work> i wish others would add themselves to the matrix as well :)
[22:36] <scott-work> ohhh, paultag, that's a wicked good idea
[22:36]  * scott-work is going home, you can get at ScottL is an hour
[22:40] <ckontros> ScottL: Ng (Chris Jones) works for Canonical and should be able to give you access to the site.
[22:41] <paultag> ScottL_, well real good then. I'll see if I can sketch out code that the future implementation can use. I think I've got most of it covered
[22:41] <ckontros> He's also the main guy behind the Terminator terminal. #terminator
[22:43] <ckontros> ScottL: As far as the release notes go, I cant remember where scochtastic (i think he handled the last ones) put them. You can and I believe should host them in the website branch on LP. Then, link to them through the site proper.
[22:45] <ckontros> ScottL: Hit me up in PM if you need me.
[22:51]  * holstein will audition for the ubuntustudio cover-band paultag :)
[22:51] <paultag> holstein, killer! What do you play?
[22:53] <holstein> well, i play bass professionally
[22:53] <paultag> holstein, standing or E?
[22:53] <holstein> but i can help with other stuff
[22:53] <holstein> i dont have an electric bass
[22:53] <paultag> Ah, awesome
[22:53] <holstein> actually, i dont believe in them ;)
[22:53] <paultag> Gee, thanks
[22:53] <paultag> <-- E-Bass, Accordion and Keyboard / Piano 
[22:53] <holstein> hehe
[22:53] <paultag> I can struggle with other stuff OK, but not well enough
[22:53]  * holstein is an accordian owner
[22:54] <paultag> Nice! :)
[22:54] <paultag> I think this is going to work out awesome
[22:54] <holstein> you hear the one about the accordian player that left his accordian in his car overnight ?
[22:54] <holstein> he came out, and someone had broken the window
[22:54] <paultag> yeah, his window was broken in and found another one
[22:54] <holstein> hehe
[22:54] <paultag> heyo!
[22:54] <paultag> I love that one :)
[22:55] <holstein> :)
[22:55] <paultag> holstein, oh you and me will get along famously
[22:56] <holstein> paultag: we have tried having some multi-track session in #opensourcemusicians
[22:56] <holstein> might i suggest
[22:56] <holstein> you kinda pre-produce some
[22:56] <paultag> "seed" it a bit?
[22:56] <holstein> and give a lot of suggestion right off
[22:56] <holstein> yeah
[22:56] <paultag> Awesome idea
[22:57] <paultag> I was thinking of a web interface, have a mixed down wav and a track "owner". You can pull the source audio file(s), throw your own in, and upload it. Then the "owner" takes it in or gives feedback
[22:57] <paultag> kinda like how git works
[22:57] <holstein> i mean, even assigning another producer to it even
[22:57] <holstein> paultag: nice 
[22:57] <holstein> sorry about all the even's
[22:57] <paultag> oh not at all
[22:57] <paultag> My hope is that there is as little "red tape" as can be allowed
[22:57]  * holstein 's girlfriend was asking a question
[22:57] <paultag> no worries :)
[22:57] <paultag> just enough to stop people from defacing stuff
[22:58] <holstein> ive got a mumble room too
[22:58] <paultag> Oh?
[22:58] <holstein> we were doing soem vitual producing
[22:58] <paultag> Oh, cool idea
[22:58] <holstein> bouncing ideas around
[22:59] <holstein> not in real-time
[22:59] <holstein> but not too much LAG
[22:59] <paultag> yeah
[22:59] <holstein> not enough to jam together
[22:59] <paultag> I always wanted to do a jam that way
[22:59] <paultag> yeah, for sure
[22:59] <holstein> but enough to talk about it
[22:59]  * holstein emailed about getting celt in jack-trip
[22:59] <holstein> i think thats the way to go
[22:59] <holstein> decent straming quality
[22:59] <holstein> and record on both ends
[23:01] <paultag> killer
[23:01] <paultag> alright, I need to run off to work
[23:01] <holstein> paultag: laterx
[23:01] <paultag> holstein, let me know if you come up with some cool ideas :)
[23:01] <paultag> holstein, thanks for the idea-football :)
[23:01] <holstein> good-times