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sujiths80The sound icon is not appearing in startup application...can anybody tell how can I change the settings04:18
KottravaiHello everyone05:37
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yu2greetings to every one07:26
sudhiany one there ?07:55
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lateniteHi folks, anyone in here who can help me setup bind? I got it running but it s not working right.13:03
bilalakhtarhi sebsebseb13:14
sebsebsebbilalakhtar: hi13:14
bilalakhtarsebsebseb: Attending the UOW?13:14
drcooperbilalakhtar is conducting a session sebsebseb13:15
bilalakhtardrcooper: well, my session is tomorrow13:15
bilalakhtarwas just asking sebsebseb13:15
drcooperbilalakhtar: ok..13:16
drcooperbilalakhtar: back from school?13:17
bilalakhtardrcooper: just now :) BTW, how do you know I attend school?13:17
drcooperbilalakhtar: all know u r 1413:17
sebsebsebbilalakhtar: yep13:17
sebsebsebbilalakhtar: attending UOW back later13:18
drcooperbilalakhtar: and im an Indian too..u are kindof getting famous13:18
bilalakhtardrcooper: good to know about you13:18
drcooperbilalakhtar: checked out cricket score ?:D13:20
persiaSo, this is neither a help channel nor a chat channel.13:21
bilalakhtardrcooper: yes, but I watch commonwealth games more nowadays :) This talk is getting offtopic, it would be better to move it to #ubuntu-classroom-chat13:21
bilalakhtaror even better, to #ubuntu-offtopic13:21
persiaAnd the bind question belongs in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-server13:23
latenitepersia, ok thanks i l go to u-server13:28
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genupulashello my name is raja ..i am new to ubuntu .may i join here to listen ....14:43
SergioMenesesgenupulas, join #ubuntu-classroom-chat14:44
nigelbHello folks!14:55
bilalakhtarnigelb: Your session?14:55
nigelbWelcome to Day 2 of the Ubuntu Open Week14:55
nigelbI hope you all had fun yesterday14:56
nigelbIf you missed yesterday's sessions, you can find the logs here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/11/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t15:0114:56
nigelbWe have another awesome set of sesions today about Translations, Finding your place in the community, Inkscape, and Qimo 4 kids!14:58
nigelbTo know the full schedule, take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek14:58
nigelbOk, we have a minute or so to go, so who's here and where are you from?15:00
nigelb(respond in -chat)15:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Get started translating Ubuntu - Instructors: dpm
jcastro(... having some problems with a missing person stand by!)15:01
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.15:01
jcastroOk, andrejz is going to step in and help us out15:05
andrejzmy name is andrejz and i am a slovenain launchpad group translation coordinator15:05
jcastrowe kind of put him on the spot so he's volunteered to take over, thanks andrejz!15:05
andrejzi have been just told dpm is not here so i haven't really prepared15:05
andrejzso if things seem a bit strange, just ask me and i will try to answer them as best as i can15:05
andrejzQUESTION: can you explain how a new contributor finds out what and how to translate Ubuntu?15:07
andrejzUbuntu (and many other projects) are being translated through a web interface found on www.launchpad.net15:08
andrejzSo the first thing you need to do is get an account there15:08
andrejzThen it's good to get in contact with your translation team - a list can be found here15:08
andrejzDifferent groups have different workflows (do things in a different way) according to the number of active members and they find suits them best15:09
andrejzSo i guess it's best to ask the team leader where is the best area to contribute15:10
andrejzQUESTION: Do different translation teams work in different ways? Are there different workflows and "rules"?15:10
andrejzYes they do15:10
TLEandrejz: just let me know when you are ready for new questions15:11
andrejzMaybe the people who asked them can say whether they were happy with the reply15:11
andrejzSo back to the question..15:11
andrejzfor example some teams only translate the strings, while others thorouglhy review them to ensure better quality. Of course this depends on how strong the team is15:12
andrejzAdditionally a lot of translations get imported from upstream (for ubuntu two most important are gnome and debian)15:12
andrejzin some languages translation groups in upstream exist, in others they don't15:13
andrejzthis can affect how the teams are going to cope with the workload. That's why it's best to get in contact with  the team leader who is probably aware of what needs the most attention15:14
andrejznext question please15:14
TLEbilalakhtar> QUESTION: Translation strings in Ubuntu keep changing very frequently early in the cycle. Hence, would you recommend new translators to work only after UI Freeze?15:14
andrejzThat's a double edged sword. My opinion it's good to translate even before UI freeze15:15
andrejzthe level of changes depends on the packages15:15
TLEYou mind if I elaborate15:16
andrejzfor example if we take evolution - it's a really stable program, so one can translate it and be certain only a few strings will change on the other hand unity has been developed during this cycle, so strings changed a lot15:16
andrejzso my advice is: do translate, but the projects for which the strings seem more "stable". Again translator coordinator should have a good grasp of which projects should be translated15:17
andrejzTLE, please elaborate15:17
TLEIt can also depend a lot on the resources of your team15:17
TLETo translate early you accept that some of your work may be lost because the strings change15:17
TLEbut you also help with development by spotting errors in the strings, at least if you report them as bugs15:18
TLEthis is very helpful for developers15:18
TLEbut if you are a very small team you may not have reources to spend on that15:19
TLENext question15:19
TLEdholbach> QUESTION: What is upstream? How can one work together with upstream?15:19
andrejzUpstream are the projects from which ubuntu is built15:19
andrejzThere are a lot of them, but the most important are Gnome, KDE and Debian15:20
andrejzSome of these projects (including the ones i mentioned below) also have their translation projects15:20
andrejzso one can translate packages within Gnome, KDE, Debian, etc ..15:21
andrejzNow again, it depends from team to team15:21
andrejzFor big languages (like spanish for example) there is a gnome translation team, debian translation team, etc..15:21
andrejzfor some smaller there is no upstream translation team15:21
andrejzyou should visit sites of these projects to check whether they exist15:22
andrejztranslations are automatically imported into launchpad, after the release of upstream packages15:22
andrejzso for example, translation will be imported in gnome the next time when gnome 2.32.1 is released15:23
andrejzthat's why there is usually some lag between the time when translations are translated in upstream and until they appear in launchpad15:23
andrejztranslations are currently not exported out of launchpad back to upstream15:23
andrejzso by working together with upstream i am primarily referring to : making sure that you don't translated the same packages (duplication of work)15:24
andrejzif you fix a bug in launchpad send notify the upstream, so they can fix it as well15:24
andrejzit's also good if you maintain some vocabulary standards, etc..15:25
andrejzagain it depends on the specific teams (whether they exist and how strong in manpower they are)15:25
andrejznext question15:25
TLEKottravai> QUESTION: Are there any specific rules to follow while translating?15:26
andrejzYou mean technical or grammar rules ?15:26
TLEandrejz: lets take the next one15:27
andrejzAgain it depends from team to team. For example in some teams it's required one enters the name of the package they intend to translate on a wiki15:27
andrejzok, sure TLE15:27
TLEwhile he elaborate15:27
TLEgenupulas> QUESTION: what is meant by UI freeze15:27
TLEmaybe expand to stings freeze as well15:27
andrejzUI freeze means USer interface freeze. This means UI won't change anymore, so the translation strings are not going to change anymore. So UI freeze= string freeze15:28
andrejzThis in theory means that the strings, which you translate won't be changed (and hence lost) before release of next ubuntu version15:29
andrejzusually this is about 1 month before the final release, actual date can be found in the release schedule15:29
andrejzBut there can always be some string freeze exceptions if there is a good reasons and translators agree with it15:29
andrejzso it's good to be on ubuntu-translators mailing list in order to stay up to date with last minute strings changes15:30
andrejznext question please15:30
TLEwe'll go back to Kottravai question15:30
TLEKottravai> I'm asking about any rules that are unique to ubuntu - terminology you should not use, etc.15:30
andrejzNo, there is no such thing. Of course different languages have different rules about foreign words, comas, voacabulary, etc. Some teams are more strict and others more loose. But there is nothing unique to ubuntu15:31
andrejznext question15:32
TLEdholbach> QUESTION: Do you know of LoCo teams that come together locally to translate together? This way they could also show new contributors  how to do it.15:32
andrejzwell, we do :)15:32
andrejzwe had this translations evenings this cycle, where people gathered (online) and translated /reviewed strings together. We really did a lot of work, and it's much easier to get motivated once you see others are motivated as well15:33
andrejzI believe it's better if events for new contributors are seperate, because otherwise they suddenly appear in translation frenzy and they might not be able to get their questions answered as detailed as they would like15:34
andrejzwe also did that but earlier in this cycle (in august). In total we managed to get 3 regular new contributors, which is significant for a team of our size15:35
andrejzI am sure some of the other teams do similar things as well15:35
andrejznext question15:35
TLEQUESTION: How do I find a translating team for my language?15:35
andrejznext question15:36
TLEQUESTION: Are translations re-done every cycle? If not completely, how much % of it can be re-used?15:36
andrejzIf the strings remain the same, then no additional work needs to be done15:36
andrejzBut a number of strings changes during a release cycle, either to improve their clarity or strings get added, because the program gets more functions.15:37
andrejzthese need to be translated15:37
andrejzwith the new message translation sharing it is now possible to translate a string in 10.10 and the string is then automatically translated in all previous supported ubuntu versions (if the string exist there)15:38
andrejzso even if you are translating 10.10 you are still helping out with 10.0415:38
andrejznext and final question please, because i need to go (i jumped in at the last moment, so i couldn't allocate the time, sorry)15:39
TLEI can share a few approximate numbers15:39
TLEbefore the next question15:39
TLEThe Gnome desktop which is a group of modules that are quite central to Ubuntu15:39
TLEit consist of roughly 40000-45000 string15:40
TLEand of those ~10 - 15% have to be translated or updated in each 6 month cycle15:40
TLEvery roughly15:40
TLE ;)15:40
TLEdholbach> QUESTION: What is the most difficult thing for a new translator? What should new translators be particular careful about?15:40
andrejzIn my experience it's the language. because we usually talk differently than we translate, so one needs to get accustomed to that.15:41
andrejzalso most translators are "power users" so they are quite familiar with english vocabulary and hence they tend to use englishisms a lot15:42
andrejzbut if you are active and have a good mentor (someone who reviews your strings and gives you advice) you can improve to a quality translator in a month or so it's not that hard. one just needs to be persistent15:43
andrejzi need to leave, hope i answered your questions ok15:44
TLEthank you very much andrejz15:44
TLEI will answer the last question on my list15:44
andrejzif you have any additional questions you can always post on ubuntu-translators mailing list or on IRC15:44
TLEand then talk a little but quality15:44
TLEandrejz: have fun15:45
TLEKottravai> QUESTION:What exactly are "Big" languages?15:45
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TLEBig languages are the ones spoken by lots of people15:45
TLEor rather langueges used to a large extend by computer userss15:46
TLEso something like spanish, english, chinese and so on15:46
TLEdholbach> QUESTION: Are there strings that are harder to translate than others? What about things like plurals or strings that include some kind  of "code"? How can I test that I didn't break stuff when I translated?15:46
TLEYes there are definitely strings that are harder than others15:47
TLEthe first class of hard strings are single word ones e.g. "Load"15:47
TLEbecause english is quite ambigous, there is no way to know whether it refers to the noun or the verb15:48
TLEhere you have to hope that the developers though of it and included a string that explains it15:48
TLEand if not you need to make a bugreport, because if you have that problem, then most likely other translators will to15:48
TLEyou languaes team can help you determine the meaning or report a bug15:49
TLEsecond is something like strings with markup15:49
TLE"<b>Hallo world</b>"15:49
TLEwe are seing fewer and fewer if such string, but for these it is important to not change the markup, i.e. the stuff between < .. >15:50
TLElastly there is something like plural strings15:50
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.15:51
TLEe.g. if you want a string that says "You have ??? unsaved changes"15:51
TLEand you want ??? to be any number15:51
TLEor I should say if developers want ;)15:51
TLEthen they will so called plural strings, they have one version for each plural state in english and you then need to make one translation for each plural state in your language15:52
TLEbut this a quite an advanced topic and is much easier to grasp with an example, so ask you team or other translators when you run into it15:53
TLEI don't see any more questions, so lastly I will mention just a few quick words about quality15:53
TLEStrings that we translate are often very visible15:54
TLEtherefore it is desireable to aim for as high quality in out translations as possible15:54
TLEHowever quality are a few different things15:54
TLEThe obvious ones are grammar and spelling15:55
TLEtake whatever help you can get and need to get it right, as many other people will see the strings you write15:55
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.15:55
TLEthis is not meant to discourage anyone, you do not need to be a grammar superhero, just as throrough as you can be15:56
TLEanother thing concerning quality is the quality of the stuff that you are writing in your own language15:57
TLEin my case Danish15:57
TLEWhen you are transating you have the english string riiiiight next to the one you are writing15:57
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TLEwhich makes it very easy to fall accidentally adopt the english sentence structure15:58
TLEwhich might not be the most elegant in your own language15:58
TLEso try and let go of the actual english sentence, focus on its contents and the formulate it in your own language15:59
TLEWell I could talk about translaion quality all day15:59
TLEbut I think that was the last we had time for15:59
TLEif you have any more questions please drop by #ubuntu-translators and ask them there16:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to go from user to contributor: Finding your place in the Ubunt - Instructors: Czajkowski
czajkowskiAloha me again :) Many moons ago I started to use Ubuntu and that was me, an Ubuntu user and I was happy.  But I wanted to do more, when I had an issue what did I do or who could I poke/prod and ask for help.  I joined IRC and low and behold a whole new world was available to me.16:01
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.16:01
czajkowskiI could log bugs, report issues, translate, volunteer and lots lots more. If I can do it anyone and everyone can and I thought in todays session I'd point people in the right direction. As sometimes you just need a push in the right direction in order to help out.16:01
czajkowskiFirstly, EVERYONE is welcome to help and contribute back, you do not have to a whiz in an area but rather be willing to learn and ask questions.  There is no such thing as a daft or stupid or n00b, we all have to start somewhere and the Ubuntu community is one of the most welcoming communities around.16:01
czajkowskiMany peope start off using Ubuntu and want to do more16:01
czajkowskiso I'm hoping in this session to tell you about some areas you may be interested in getting involved in16:02
czajkowskiSo now you want to help, where do you go ? There are lots of teams out there and I'm going to highlight some of the ones that are good ways to get involved and introduced to the Ubuntu community!16:02
czajkowskiWorks to improve the accessibility support on the Ubuntu platform and the software that runs on it.  f you have further questions or suggestion you can reach us via IRC (#ubuntu-accessibility), our mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility  The team is looking for more help with documentation, and testing, so if you want to get on board jump in and give a hand!16:02
czajkowskiSo you may not have heard of some of the teams16:02
czajkowskior not know they are looking for help16:03
czajkowskimany idle on IRC and welcome people dropping by and asking questions and can point you in the right direction16:03
czajkowskiPeople like me :) and many of the open week presenters do this16:03
czajkowskiThere are lots of people who help out and promote Ubuntu and turn up for weeks like this one and are run by people who want to help and showcase Ubuntu and Free and open source software this is what advocacy is all about.16:04
czajkowskiHow can you get others on board without scaring them away.16:04
czajkowskithe thing you have to remembers is not to force open source or Ubuntu on anyone, just talk ro explain to them what its about and let them decide16:04
czajkowskiit;s all about choice.16:04
czajkowskiWhy not get involved in your loco team http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/  Help organise events and take part in them by giving demos or short talks ? There is always a way to contribute, by even attending events that other groups like local lugs or user groups are running and talking or showing your laptop working using Ubuntu it spreads the word16:05
czajkowskiso many people first get involved and get on irc via their loco team16:05
czajkowskiyou can also volunteer there also16:05
czajkowskihelp run  meetings16:05
czajkowskiupdate wiki websites16:05
czajkowskimailing lists16:05
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: What's a good option for someone who doesn't have much time to spare?16:06
czajkowskianneboleyn: great question16:06
czajkowskiso starting off small and in your team is a great way16:07
czajkowskipossibly taking a part of a wiki area and seeing if it needs to be updated in your team16:07
czajkowskialways ask for help16:07
czajkowskior bug triaging which I'll get onto16:07
czajkowskiArt/ Design:16:07
czajkowskiLots of choice here depending on your choice16:08
czajkowskiThe Art Community Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork <- For contributing to the art in Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu etc16:08
czajkowskiThe Ayatana Design Community   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana <- For user experence, design and the science of user interactivity16:08
czajkowskiThe "I use Ubuntu and make Art" community  http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/16:08
czajkowskiand finally16:08
czajkowskimany many teams do some amazing artworkd16:08
czajkowskior create some funky templates for their teams16:09
czajkowskithey add them to a website so we can all use them which is great!16:09
czajkowskiif you have stuff for your team done and want to add it so other teams can benefit from it http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/ <- For contributing to LoCo media (posters etc)16:09
ClassBotEthnopunk asked: Is there a way to contribute to making Ubuntu desktop a more productive user experience?16:09
czajkowskiEthnopunk: yes you can join the Ayatana mailing list and join the discssions there16:09
czajkowskior join #ubuntu-desktop and talk to the developers16:10
czajkowskicloud is the new thing everyone wants to get involved in16:11
czajkowskibut many don't know where to turn to16:11
czajkowskiAnyone interested in contributing to ubuntu cloud or server  then why not have a chat with Ahmed Kamal  / Kim0 on IRC   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AhmedKamal  and he will point you in the right direction and is currently looking for feedback for the next cycle on the cloud and community.16:11
czajkowskiThe Doc team is a group of community volunteers responsible for writing, editing, and updating the system documentation that ships with the Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu desktop operating systems. New versions of these guides are available with each new release of Ubuntu16:12
czajkowskiIf you want to learn about documentation or get more experience in it or already do it why not help the documentation team.  It's a great way to learn and also there is a mentoring program so if you're shy and want to make sure you don't mess things up too badly, there is a safety net with people there to help you. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam or join #ubuntu-doc16:12
czajkowskiagain if you've no experience do not be put off16:13
czajkowskiwe all have to learn somewhere16:13
czajkowskiand the best thing is to jump in and just ask16:13
czajkowskiyou won't be told off and you get to learn new applications which will benefit you possibly career wise16:13
czajkowskiLoCo Directory:16:14
czajkowskiif anyone hasn't guessed by now I rather love the LD :)16:14
czajkowskiWe have a fantastic resource that is the LoCo Directory (LD) and it's being worked on by an amazing group of folks in the community, it's a community driven proect which started off as a blueprint at UDS and has come a long long long way!16:14
czajkowskiBUT! we do know there are some kinks in it, if someone mentions UTC timezones once more to me....... :) We are looking for developers/patches translations ideas on how to help it improve or just to help with the current load of work! http://loco.ubuntu.com/  ask or join in #ubuntu-locoteams16:14
czajkowskithey are currently looking for people to help with CSS and to help work on the bugs that are there at presenr16:15
czajkowskithey are also looking to translate it https://translations.launchpad.net/loco-directory16:15
czajkowskihttps://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-directory/+bugs  why not try some of these and ask the developers how to get working on them in #ubuntu-locoteams16:16
czajkowskiUbuntu Weekly News Letter:16:16
czajkowskialso known as UWN https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter is always looking for more reviewers and writers, why not get on board and help out and learn more about the community. Or pop into #ubuntu-news and ask where you can help16:16
czajkowskiSo if you like to write or are good at interviewing people16:17
czajkowskior even better still reading and summerising work then join here :)16:17
czajkowskiUbuntu Testing Team seeks to improve Ubuntu through structured and exploratory testing of packages and ISO images. We aim to detect as many bugs and issues as possible before CDs are released to the general public.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing16:17
czajkowskiYou can join their mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa  or ask in #ubuntu-testing16:17
czajkowskiThere are lots of areas to chose from so don't be shy and thinking you can't test! Everyone tests in some manner or another when you do an upgrade or run an unstable release and you enconter an issue, now what do you do? DO you hope it goes away or someone else reports the bug! Why not learn more16:18
czajkowskilots of areas to chose from depending on your interest16:18
czajkowskiTesting Team Activities16:18
czajkowskiISO Testing16:18
czajkowskiDaily Smoke Testing16:18
czajkowskiStable Release Update (SRU) Testing16:18
czajkowskiFeature Testing16:18
czajkowskiGeneral Testing16:18
czajkowskiApplication Testing16:19
czajkowskiAutomated Testing16:19
czajkowskiLaptop Testing16:19
czajkowskiThere are also lots of bugs there sittting waiting there feeling rather unloved as they've been reported and not been triaged or marked as valid or verified why not16:20
ClassBothermes asked: How does one start, if he/she wants to start contribution at the Kernel Level16:20
czajkowskihermes: you can ask in #ubuntu-kernel or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/BugTriage  learn about how to traige bugs16:21
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: If I use my computer for testing, is there a chance that other apps will be damaged by bugs?16:21
czajkowskianneboleyn: heh16:21
czajkowskiI won't say damage but if you are running unstable releases then you may find things not working the way you'd expect them to do so16:22
czajkowskiTest Drive an Ubuntu ISO in a Virtual Machine16:22
czajkowskivery useful tool16:23
czajkowskiA lot of teams provide language support and also help with the large job of translations as we do appreciate not everyone speaks English and would like Ubuntu or what ever application they use to be in their native language.   There is a lot of help on their wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations with regular meetings and it gives you lots of pointers on where to get started.16:23
czajkowskiWhy not look them up on http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/locallanguage  or join #ubuntu-translations  or asking dpm on irc for help16:23
czajkowskiTheir mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators16:23
czajkowskiThere is a way for everyone to contribute if you want to.  If you get stuck or don't know where to get involved ASK SOMEONE  you can ask in #ubuntu-locoteams and that's also a great place to hang out in IRC to meet other members from teams all over the world or ask in #ubuntu-community-team16:24
czajkowskiWE have a massive community who are pretty tolerant and will help you if you need help. So don't worry.16:25
czajkowskiAnyone have any questions ?16:25
ClassBotdoctormo asked: did you talk about packaging at all?16:28
czajkowskiHave a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted  it links to16:29
czajkowskiall the questions you have in #ubuntu-motu or #ubuntu-packaging16:29
czajkowskior come along to bilalakhtar session tomorow on packaging16:29
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: Where can I learn more about advocacy?16:30
czajkowskianneboleyn: there isn't one set place on the wiki to be honest16:31
czajkowskiyou can ask in #ubuntu-locoteams16:31
czajkowskior the marketing team16:31
czajkowskior #ubuntu-community-team16:32
czajkowskiAnything else ?16:33
ClassBotdoctormo asked: Is there a way to get involved with teaching or making classes?16:35
czajkowskidoctormo: thanks good questions16:36
czajkowskiyou can get involved in both in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom16:36
czajkowskiboth have people there to teach you16:37
czajkowskibut also if there is an area you are good at and want to share with others16:37
czajkowskiyou can give a class in here16:37
ClassBotpawelh asked: I have been trying to get in touch with my country's LoCo, but it seems to be inactive. How can I jump start it?16:37
czajkowskipawelh what LoCo is this ?16:37
czajkowskias I said teams are listed http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/16:38
czajkowskiif you team is listed there it SHOULD have a team contact named and contact details16:38
czajkowskiif there is nobody there running it16:38
czajkowskiyou can contact me and the loco council https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil and we can help16:38
=== simar__ is now known as simar
czajkowskiwell the Polish loco is an APPROVED team http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-pl16:39
czajkowskithey have a mailing list listed ?16:40
czajkowskiso do try adn contact them and see what the story is16:40
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: Can I help with the content/presentation for classes even if I'm not very techno savvy?( Was an Instructional designer for a while)16:40
czajkowskianneboleyn: sure you can do a class on anything just contact the classroom team and they can help set up a session on it for you to run16:41
czajkowskianneboleyn: I'd say contact the learning team and see what you can sort out and work on16:41
czajkowskihope that helps16:41
=== rodemires is now known as Rodemire
czajkowskiok well if there are no more questions we can call it a day but if folks ever get stuck and want to know where to get involved you can dm me here on irc or mail me czajkowski @ ubuntu . com16:44
czajkowskiThanks for coming16:44
doctormoWelcome to the Making Posters in Inkscape session, we've taken a bit of extra time because we need to do some prep work.16:46
doctormothe first thing to do is to install inkscape, http://doctormo.org/install.pl?inkscape <- click there16:47
doctormoOne of the important parts of doing media work is organising yourself so you can find everything. Poster creation, like all publishing, is about bringing lots of existing elements together.16:48
doctormoI'd like you to make a special folder to keep all your artworks in. Me I use ~/Graphics/16:50
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.16:51
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to Make Posters using Inkscape - Instructors: doctormo
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.16:51
doctormoI'm going to give you a library of existing elements, I've tried my hardest to document the licensing where it's original or commissioned work. I'd like you to download, extract and store in your graphics folder. I store mine in ~/Graphics/Media16:52
doctormoThis is a my precious media archive which all LoCo people, art and marketing people should download.16:52
doctormoOnce you have extracted your archive, I'd like you to open inkscape and get comfortable, open up your media directory too.16:55
doctormoThis is my work environment for making published media like posters.16:55
doctormoIf you've got that all setup, then congratulations your ready for the class. I'll be printing this back out at 12:00 for everyone who has joined since and if all you who are ready can help those who are not in chat, that would be great.16:58
doctormoWelcome again to the Making Posters in Inkscape session, you will need to do some prep work to get ready. For everyone who has joined us since the hour.17:00
doctormoThe first thing to do is to install inkscape, http://doctormo.org/install.pl?inkscape <- click there17:01
doctormoOne of the important parts of doing media work is organising yourself so you can find everything. Poster creation, like all publishing, is about bringing lots of existing elements together.17:01
doctormoI'd like you to make a special folder to keep all your artworks in. Me, I use ~/Graphics/17:01
doctormoI'm going to give you a library of existing elements, I've tried my hardest to document the licensing where it's original or commissioned work.17:01
doctormohttp://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Media.tar.gz <- I'd like you to download, extract and store in your graphics folder. I store mine in ~/Graphics/Media17:01
doctormoOnce you have extracted your archive, I'd like you to open inkscape and get comfortable, open up your media directory too.17:01
doctormohttp://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/inkscape-setup.png 11:55 <- Just like this17:01
doctormoThis is my work environment for making published media like posters.17:01
doctormoIf you've got that all setup, then congratulations your ready for the class.17:01
doctormoI'll give you all another 3 minutes to do that, downloading the 7MB archive might take a second.17:02
doctormoYou can extract the archive by right clicking on it and selecting "Extract here"17:05
doctormoYou can have a look through the folders and see what's there, all fun stuff.17:05
doctormoOK time to move on, don't worry if your still downloading, we'll be doing backgrounds first.17:06
doctormoIn your inkscape window, you'll have a canvas. It's important at this stage to get your canvas the right size and orentation.17:06
doctormoFile > Document Properties17:06
doctormoIn the Format selection, we're going to select Ledger/Tabloid which is two US Letter sheets stuck together. You can also use A3.17:07
doctormoWhere it says background, we're going to click on that and change the colour to pure white with no transparency.17:08
doctormoClose that preferences window and go back tot he canvas.17:09
doctormoGoto File > Save As and save your work, use the save button on the toolbar religiously.17:09
doctormoNext we're going to make a square using the draw square tool17:10
doctormoMake a square just less than the size of the canvas. Clicking on the fill/stroke properties we want to give this square a 4px black border and an orange fill, your choice on complexity.17:11
doctormohttp://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot.png <- Like this17:13
doctormoNext we're going to write a title on our poster, I like to have a collection of fonts as much as I like a collection of media.17:15
doctormoI install ttf-aenigma to get access to a lot of interesting fonts and fill my ~/.fonts directory with downloaded ttf files.17:15
doctormoYou may have to restart inkscape to see the new fonts.17:16
doctormoOnce you have some text, we'll want to drag over an Ubuntu logo, which should be in the Ubuntu media folder.17:18
doctormoLike so: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot-1.png17:18
doctormoDrag over some other elements and place them in your poster, go with images that reflect the style you want to convay.17:21
doctormoAll these media elements are svg, so they're all editable and decomposable too.17:22
doctormoAt this point I'd like to download some new media to put in my directory17:22
doctormoIf it's something factual, like a flag, icon or brand I can use google to search wikimedia and type in "dell logo svg" for instance to get the svg.17:22
doctormoMake sure that when downloading from wikimedia you download the svg and not the png.17:23
doctormoFor more creative works you can head over to http://openclipart.org and search the vast collections of works for svgs which fit your theme.17:24
doctormoYou can also take any of the works on spread Ubuntu, I limit myself to the svg works as they're the most flexible. http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/17:24
doctormoSpread Ubuntu is incidentally where you should upload your poster once it's done.17:25
doctormoOnce you've got all your downloadable elements together, next is the more creative part17:27
doctormoAt this point we have to work a bit on Copyright. sorry guys!17:29
doctormoI's important17:29
doctormoFor any pieces that you work on or that you download from openclipart (which are public domain) you don't need to worry at all.17:29
doctormoFor works you downloaded from elsewhere, you need to pay close attention to the license and abide by the rules.17:30
doctormoA lot of the media I've given you is CC-BY-SA, so you're posters if they use those, will also need to be CC-BY-SA when you publish them.17:30
doctormoYou'll also need to credit the authors, so keep a record of them if you can.17:30
doctormoKeeping a clean copyright workflow allows you a much better sense of security that your work isn't infringing on anything.17:31
doctormothis is what I have so far -> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot-2.png17:31
=== JoeMaver1ckSett is now known as JoeMavericksett
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: What if I use some open-source stuff and some that are not free?17:32
doctormoYou have to license work from the original authors in ways that are compatible. It's not possible to legally combine non-free and share-alike works for instance.17:33
doctormoIf in doubt, make your own and license freely.17:33
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: Where can I get help in doing that (getting my own license)?17:36
doctormoYou can get your own license from http://creativecommons.org/licenses/ you can of course always make your own, but that's legally unsure.17:37
doctormoOK so now if you've got something worthwhile and you've saved it.17:38
doctormoYou'll need to know how to print it so it comes out like you expect.17:38
doctormoMake sure at this point to save your poster.17:38
doctormoYou can save an SVG in inkscape as a PDF, but elements like blur and advanced filter effects are not accepted in pdf so they fail to translate.17:39
doctormoYou'll also notice that inkscape svg itself is slightly incompatibility with text fields appearing blank or as black squares in other svg viewers. (don't worry!) you can save your svg as a svg 1.1 compatible file for viewing in other programs.17:40
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.17:40
doctormoThe best process I've found is to use File > Export Bitmap and export the full page (select the page tab) at 300dpi17:41
doctormoYou can then convert the png output into a pdf using imagemagik, gimp etc. This will be bigger than an svg -> pdf output, but it'll be much safer.17:41
doctormoPlease do ask your questions now.17:41
ClassBotjothejo2 asked: doctormo can i add scripts in inkscape?17:45
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.17:45
doctormojothejo2: Yes, you can make python, perl scripts as extentions. Do a web search for "python extentions" and read existing code.17:46
doctormoThis is where I have got to now, going mad with inkscape: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot-3.png17:46
doctormoHow are you all doing?17:46
ClassBotavagraphique asked: do you use a font manager and what font file types are compatible to use in linux/ubuntu (ex ttf, postscript, otf)?17:47
doctormottf and otf are both compatible, I believe postscript and svg embedded fonts can be converted. I don't use a font manager, I make a symbolic link between the .fotns directory in my home folder and ~/Fonts which i just fill up witht he ttf files.17:48
doctormoThank you all for coming to my session and I hope you spread the word about how easy this all is.17:49
doctormoEducation is the primary activity we need to be doing! :-D17:49
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html17:51
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Qimo 4 kids - Instructors: MichelleQ, mhall119
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.18:01
MichelleQHi everyone.18:01
MichelleQI was asked to give this session on Qimo, for anyone who might be unfamiliar with it, or have questions, etc.18:02
MichelleQQimo's an Ubuntu variant, for kids 3-10 years old.18:02
MichelleQPlease, those of you around, feel free to ask questions; I'd much rather do this as a Q&A session.18:03
MichelleQQimo's incorporated a basic set of educational games, and is designed to be extremely child friendly.18:04
MichelleQFor those of you who might be interested in *why* Qimo came to be, we designed it for our son, who at the time was three, and barely verbal.  He is high-functioning Autistic, and struggled with multi-step processes.18:05
MichelleQSo we made it as non-complicated as possible, putting the launcher on the bottom, with really large icons.18:06
MichelleQIt's also designed to run on old hardware.18:07
MichelleQWe, being mhall119 and myself, run a charity locally that recycles computers and gives them to at risk kids - and as such, we needed something that would run on very outdated hardware.18:07
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: What are the packages to install?18:08
mhall119starting in 10.04, we have some packages in the Universe repository18:08
mhall119if you install qimo-session, that will install everything (including Xfce)18:09
mhall119you can also install just qimo-games, which will only install the games18:09
mhall119and qimo-wallpaper, that has the lovely backgrounds from Qimo18:09
MichelleQI suppose I should mention the names of the characters, Qimo & Illa.18:09
mhall119Qimo is also available as a CD ISO18:09
ClassBotbilalakhtar asked: How would you compare this to Edubuntu? In which ways is Qimo different from Edubuntu? In which ways would you recommend Qimo over it?18:10
mhall119we're actually working with the Edubuntu team to include Qimo as a session option for Edubuntu18:11
mhall119we'll be meeting with them at UDS-N to work out all the details of that18:11
MichelleQEdubuntu is more designed for a classroom use, with classroom management tools, etc.  Qimo's intended more for home useage.18:11
mhall119so they really compliment eachother18:11
ClassBotsebsebseb asked: Why is it called Qimo?18:11
MichelleQThe name is derived from a song by Bob Dylan - "Quinn the Eskimo."18:12
MichelleQOur son is Quinn.18:12
MichelleQWe sang it to him since his was itty bitty, and when we set out looking for a mascot, something related to him seemed to fit.18:12
ClassBotmick_laptop asked: is this also a live cd like other ubuntu os cds18:13
mhall119yes, it's a live CD based on Xubuntu18:13
mhall119and you can install from that CD too18:13
mhall119you can get it from our website: http://www.qimo4kids.com18:13
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: Can I directly download the .vdi file from somewhere, or is it available only as a torrent?18:14
mhall119the .vdi was actually made for us by someone else18:14
mhall119so whatever options they offer18:14
MichelleQSomething to take note of:  Qimo is made to be stand alone, without internet access, and as such, has no filtering system.  If you want internet capabilities, you'll want to install something like Dan's Guardian before letting kids online.18:16
ClassBotn3gbz asked: did Qimo spawn the recycling program or is that a separate venture?18:16
MichelleQthey arose sort of hand-in-hand18:16
=== simar_ is now known as simar
mhall119originally I was customizing every install we did into a simplified interface and installing the games18:17
MichelleQmhall119 stripped down Ubuntu and handed it out to a handful of friends.  When the kids loved it, he proposed that we give old computers out more frequently.  We then launched both the charity, and then Qimo, within a relatively short period of time.18:17
mhall119doing the customization by hand was time consuming18:18
mhall119so initially I was just going to make a customized Ubuntu18:18
mhall119but once we started down that road, we decided to keep going and make it into it's own thing18:19
MichelleQWe decided that a customized Ubuntu just wouldn't do, so we came up with the notion of QImo.18:19
ClassBotsebsebseb asked: Do you know about any schools that use Qimo?   If so how many and where?18:19
MichelleQGosh, there's a bunch.18:19
MichelleQI know of a Romanian orphanage that uses it.  I know there are a couple of schools in South Africa that use it, and at least one in Central America.18:20
mhall119we regularly hear from teachers and school administrators who find it and tell us that they're going to be using it18:20
mhall119just last week we heard from an IT admin from a school in Poland18:20
mhall119so, we have no hard numbers, but we know it's making it's way around18:21
MichelleQI know that the library system in Reno NV uses Qimo on all of it's children's computers18:21
MichelleQwe don't have a great way to track the numbers, but as close as we can figure from download numbers, etc, we'18:21
MichelleQve got close to 100k kids using Qimo.18:21
MichelleQWe get word regularly that Qimo is expanding into new territory18:22
MichelleQAny questions?18:22
mhall119http://ubuntuone.com/p/Jzz/ is a screenshot of the default desktop from Qimo 2.018:23
mhall119can everybody see that?18:23
MichelleQOur new character, the polar bear, is Illa, whose name is an Inuit word for friend.18:23
mhall119http://ubuntuone.com/p/Jzz/ is the new Illa themed background18:24
MichelleQShe was inspired by our daughter's favorite lovey is a polar bear.18:24
ClassBotsebsebseb asked: How many schools  or home users have you visited that used Qimo and where?18:24
MichelleQwe've delivered personally to four schools/residence facilities in our community, and delivered close to 30 computers into individual homes.18:25
MichelleQthat's just the two of us.18:25
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: Have you seen Qimo being useful for children younger than three18:25
MichelleQDepends on the child - our daughter took to it about 2.18:26
mhall119gCompris and Childsplay in particular have some games that even the very youngest can play18:26
MichelleQThere are some games included that are for rudimentary mouse/keyboard skills18:27
mhall119gCompris has a couple that teach them to use the keyboard and mouse to interact with the computer18:27
ClassBotn3gbz asked: great graphics; who designs them?18:27
MichelleQMy brother-in-law is a graphics artist, and donated his time.18:27
mhall119he also did the new mascot for Xen.org18:28
ClassBotmick_laptop asked: (related to the other comment) why do people never focus on younger children? (I'm developing educational material for children under 3)18:28
MichelleQmick_laptop: I wish I knew.  I can only assume that people make the assumption that a child under three can not be capable of operating a computer.18:28
MichelleQI argue that as long as he/she is in a safe environment, and is allowed to play monitored, for 5-10 minute stretches, that any child over about 18 mnths can learn something interesting.18:29
mhall119part of the problem is in communicating with the younger children how to interact with the game, and what the objectives are18:29
mhall119for the very young, I've found that 'gamine' is a great way to get them started18:30
MichelleQGamine is a great little cause-and-effect game.18:30
mhall119it has no objectives, and will respond to any input from the keyboard and mouse18:30
mhall119so there's nothing to learn18:30
ClassBotIdleOne asked: How many languages is Qimo translated to?18:30
mhall119there is very little text that is unique to Qimo18:31
MichelleQIdleOne: We include a number of Ubuntu's language packs.18:31
mhall119so, any languages that Ubuntu's packages are translated into, we also get18:31
MichelleQSpanish, Portuguese... a handful of others.18:31
MichelleQWe're limited by space on the CD, more than anything18:31
mhall119the ISO includes most of the major languages we've seen interest from18:31
mhall119others are available to download18:32
ClassBotsebsebseb asked: You mentioned how Qimio was designed to be used offline, why was it not designed to be used both offline and online?18:32
MichelleQWe felt that it would be best for the kids and families we were working with, specifically.  Most of the families that we work with through the charity are low income, and don't *have* internet access.18:33
MichelleQSo, we decided to not include filtering, etc, in favor of other games for the kids.18:33
mhall119also, like she mentioned earlier, CD space is a big constraint for us18:33
mhall119we already strip a lot of packages out in order to fit the games we ship18:34
MichelleQWe've discussed using something like Dan's Guardian in the future, and we've worked with the KidZui people in the past for filtering.18:34
mhall119there is also Gnome Nanny now18:34
mhall119which we will look into18:34
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: Where can I get Dan's Guardian? I can't find it in the repos18:35
mhall119'dansguardian' is in the Universe repos18:35
mhall119if you plan on running it locally, you'll need an HTTP proxy too, like Squid or TinyHttpd18:36
mhall119there are a lot of tutorials online for setting it up18:36
mhall119any other questions?18:37
MichelleQIncluded as standard for Qimo are GCompris, which is a fabulous collection of games ranging from basic rudimentary to electrical engineering.18:38
MichelleQChild's Play, which has a really good pac-man style spelling game18:38
mhall119and flashcards18:38
MichelleQLaby, which is a rudimentary python programming game18:38
MichelleQand then TuxPaint, TuxType, and TuxMath.18:38
mhall119Laby, for those who aren't familiar, is a really great way to introduce kids to programming18:39
ClassBotanneboleyn asked: In your opinion, what is the maximum age for a child to use Qimo?18:39
MichelleQMaximum age really depends on the child.18:39
MichelleQWe've tested consistently with kids up to about 12, a handful a little older.18:40
MichelleQI've also been made aware of Qimo being used for adult transition programs, for special needs adults.18:40
MichelleQFor those of you looking for online filtering for your children, I strongly encourage you to look at KidZui.18:41
MichelleQAre there any other questions?18:42
mhall119Any thoughts on where we should take Qimo?18:43
mhall119We'll be planning version 3 at UDS-N18:43
MichelleQAnything you'd like to see in the future?18:43
ClassBotsebsebseb asked: Why is Qimo based on Xubuntu, rather than Ubuntu, or even another distro?18:44
mhall119going back to the charity, we had a lot of older hardware18:44
MichelleQwe're talking OLD.18:44
mhall119the majority of what we had when we got started was Pentium 2 or 318:44
MichelleQI broke the manufacturer's seal on a 386 about three months ago.18:44
mhall119if we had 256MB of RAM, we were lucky18:44
mhall119so we needed something light-weight, but still user friendly18:45
MichelleQXubuntu fit that need18:45
mhall119as light-weight as Ubuntu is compared to Windows, it's still slow on some of those18:45
mhall119We toyed with using Fluxbox or Openbox at first18:45
mhall119but most of the computers we were donating were going to be the _only_ computer in the house18:46
mhall119which means we wanted them to be usable as a normal desktop by the adults too18:46
MichelleQAnd so we wanted the computer to be user-friendly for adults as well18:46
mhall119We are keeping an eye on Lubuntu, but for right now it just doesn't fit our need18:47
mhall119we're also planning on making a gnome-bases Qimo session for including with Edubuntu18:47
ClassBotmick_laptop asked: have you partnered w/ any other groups (or developers) with similar goals?18:47
MichelleQWe've been working with the Edubuntu group18:47
MichelleQand we've been in contact with other charities who do similar things.18:48
mhall119the Edubuntu devs have been especially helpful to us, and we can't thank them enough18:48
mhall119that said, we'd welcome any support we can get, be it in development, infrastructure, testing (especially testing)18:49
MichelleQAdditional hands are always welcome18:49
mhall119or recommendations for new games18:49
mhall119any feedback we get helps us make Qimo better18:50
MichelleQIt is just mhall119 and myself, and I'm not a programmer, by any means.  Any additional development would be wonderful.18:50
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.18:50
MichelleQAny additional questions?18:51
mhall119Qimo has a Launchpad page, where you can file bugs and ask questions: https://launchpad.net/qimo18:52
mhall119we also have a freenode channel: #qimo18:52
mhall119where you can feel free to stop by and chat18:52
MichelleQAs people upgrade, our donations have followed.  Where we were getting Pentium IIs & IIIs a year ago, we're now getting IIIs and IVs.18:52
ClassBotmick_laptop asked: how long will you be focusing on older hardware and what do your typical donations look like (re: hardware)18:52
MichelleQWe're starting to see laptop donations, which has been wonderful.18:53
mhall119as i mentioned earlier, a gnome-based Qimo session will be in the works for Edubuntu 11.04/Qimo 318:53
MichelleQBut most everything we're still getting is within the Pentium III generation.18:53
mhall119whether or not we'll replace Xfce on the standalone ISO, that we haven't decided yet18:53
ClassBotIdleOne asked: Are there any games that teach how to speak/read/write other languages?18:54
MichelleQNot at the moment, though we'd like to incorporate some kind of second-language learning game18:54
mhall119there are such apps in the Ubuntu repos though18:54
MichelleQThere are a couple of games where you can custom-make your own flashcards, and I suppose you could make other-language cards.18:54
mhall119'parley' teaches reading and writing18:54
MichelleQAny last questions?18:55
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.18:55
MichelleQIf there are no remaining questions, we'll wrap this up.  Thanks everyone.18:56
mhall119thank you everyone18:57
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html19:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
quietoneare there transcripts/logs of these sessions? where?22:23
quietoneporthose, thx. I found this difficult. How/where do I suggest what I think is a better place to put this link?22:29
jcastroit's one the schedule page22:31
jcastroand the bot announces it during the sesions22:31
jcastrooh I see, for this channel in general you mean22:32
quietonejcastro, what is the schedule page?22:32
jcastrowe're currently in openweek http://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenWeek22:33
quietonejcastro, the link for logs there go to  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekMaverick where there are no logs or links to them.22:38
jcastroI see, someone hasn't linked them up yet22:39
jcastroAdding a link to the /Classroom wikipage to the irclogs of the channel would probably be useful22:39
quietonejcastro, if you mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom. then I agree! that always came up high on the searches.22:40
jcastrofeel free to add it somewhere!22:42

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