[00:03] <IdleOne> ikonia: I added some notes to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu#Adding Repositories in Ubuntu concerning the Software Sources.
[00:04] <IdleOne> dinner....
[00:10] <h00k> Life just happens to hit during #release-party and I missed everything.
[00:11] <tonyyarusso> silly life
[00:14] <h00k> mah.
[00:14] <h00k> Good news, Mom's out of the hospital.
[00:14] <h00k> wooo
[00:14] <tonyyarusso> this is good
[00:28] <IdleOne> Very good news
[00:28] <IdleOne> fast dinner ;/
[00:28] <Seeker`> run after it then
[00:28] <h00k> aim lower. or higher
[00:29] <IdleOne> caught it but it won't sit still long enough to eat
[00:29] <IdleOne> I am think a restraint of some sort
[00:29] <IdleOne> thinking
[00:31] <IdleOne> thinking of adding blog to planet
[00:32] <IdleOne> not sure I want to add existing or make new
[00:36] <tonyyarusso> I still need to figure out what scheme I want to use for choosing which posts to push there.
[00:37] <tonyyarusso> I always get two or three (*always* Anonymous) comments whining about how some post shouldn't be on the planet.
[00:37] <Pici> just moderate those into oblivion
[00:38] <tonyyarusso> I do
[00:38] <tonyyarusso> In before "zomgcensorship!" :P
[00:40] <IdleOne> I thought pretty much any goes within CoC on Planet Ubuntu
[00:40] <IdleOne> anything*
[00:40] <IdleOne> wow at failing to type complete words
[00:40] <Pici> don't worry, complete words are optional on the planet
[00:41] <IdleOne> heh, I'll fit in perfect
[00:41] <tonyyarusso> It does, but that doesn't stop $random_idiot from complaining about it every stupid time it's not about uploading something to universe.
[00:41] <Pici> I've talked about IRC or LP the 4 times that I've posted to my blog.
[00:42] <IdleOne> I don't understand the whole !label thing
[00:42] <IdleOne> ~label*
[00:42] <IdleOne> I think that is what is stopping me, ignorance is not always bliss
[00:43] <IdleOne> I bet there is a #ubuntu-planet or some such that I can ask
[00:43] <h00k> Bryanstein: hello. How can we help you?
[00:43] <Pici> The planet 'feeds' off of my Ubuntu category rss 'feed'
[00:44] <IdleOne> h00k: Bryanstein has "permission" to idle I believe
[00:45] <Pici> IdleOne: If you're using wordpress it should be at site.com/category/yourcategoryname/feed/
[00:45] <IdleOne> using blogger
[00:45] <Pici> o
[00:45] <h00k> IdleOne: ah
[00:46] <tonyyarusso> I post about politics from time to time, which apparently bothers people.  I've never taken it too seriously though because not one has been willing to put their name on their comment.
[00:46] <IdleOne> I think political posts are fine provided they are respectful of others beliefs.
[00:46] <Pici> http://bloggerdesign.com/254/blogger-label-feeds/
[00:46] <Pici> I don't like political posts... But I don't really like politics at all, so...
[00:47] <tonyyarusso> Given that Planet is supposed to be a "view into the lives of Ubuntu members", and that's become a significant portion of my life, it makes sense based on the stated guidelines that it should be okay.
[00:47] <IdleOne> well then it isn't so much about the specific politics as it is politics in general for you
[00:48] <IdleOne> Pici ^^
[00:50] <IdleOne> Pici: thanks for the link but it still is not clear to me :/
[00:51] <tonyyarusso> I'll probably start employing a "planet" tag though, since I don't want it to be an exclusive category but it'd be nice to pick and choose occasionally.
[00:51] <tonyyarusso> Sadly, Drivel doesn't support tags or multi-select categories for Drupal yet.
[01:22] <Jarrhed> I got banned from #ubuntu-offtopi as Jantire, because I said "naggers"
[01:23] <Jarrhed> I find that completely inappropriate and I wish to be unbanned immidately
[01:23] <Jarrhed> *#ubuntu-offtopic
[01:24] <Jarrhed> You see, the definition of "nagger" is (According to Google's define:) "one who nags"
[01:24] <Jarrhed> And that is by no means a racial slur
[01:24] <tonyyarusso> That may be, but given the context it is quite obvious that is not what you actually meant.
[01:24] <Jarrhed> I said that all "naggers are terrorists"
[01:24] <Jarrhed> People who annoy another can very well cause terror
[01:24] <Jarrhed> depending on the degree they annoy the individfual
[01:24] <Jarrhed> *individual
[01:24] <tonyyarusso> First you crossed the boundaries of o4o once.
[01:25] <tonyyarusso> Then someone explained the rules of conduct to you.
[01:25] <Jarrhed> I did, and I was warned and I did not say anything else that was offensive afterwards
[01:25] <tonyyarusso> Then you expressed a disregard for such things existing and a desire to push the boundaries of the rules.
[01:25] <IdleOne> also you were banned under this current nick
[01:25] <Jarrhed> How is saying "naggers" pushing the boundaries of the rules
[01:25] <tonyyarusso> Then you obviously changed the spelling of a word so you could waste our time with this discussion later.
[01:26] <tonyyarusso> Protip:  We're not that stupid.
[01:26] <Jarrhed> One could argue that you are wasting my time by wrongfully banning me from a chat channel
[01:26] <Jarrhed> However, making an argument such as that would be of no benefit to me
[01:26] <tonyyarusso> The fact that you even thought to say "And that is by no means a racial slur" without being given any reason for your removal shows that you already know darn well what you were going for and why you were removed.
[01:27] <tonyyarusso> So in short, you just signed your own confession by doing that.  Nice work.
[01:27] <Jarrhed> Well, I am aware that the word "naggers" could be interpreted as "n*****s"
[01:27] <Jarrhed> and I was clarifying the meaning behind it
[01:27] <Jarrhed> Because I was obviously misunderstood
[01:28] <tonyyarusso> yeah, not terribly convincing.
[01:28] <Jarrhed> Prove it.
[01:28] <Jarrhed> Why would I knowingly push the boundaries of the rules when I would know the end result would be a ban
[01:29] <Jarrhed> When I wish to remain to be able to speak with others in the Ubuntu's offtopic discussion
[01:29] <tonyyarusso> I don't have to prove it - the onus is on you, not us.
[01:29] <Fishscene> "(5:20:57 PM) Jarrhed: My account (Jantire) got banned from #ubuntu-offtopic for saying "naggers"..."
[01:30] <Jarrhed> What is the email of your supervisor?
[01:30] <tonyyarusso> Who?
[01:30] <IdleOne> !appeals > Jarrhed
[01:31] <Jarrhed> Thank you
[01:31] <IdleOne> Welcome.
[01:31] <Jarrhed> The supervisor of tonyyarusso
[01:31]  * tonyyarusso has no supervisor
[01:31] <Seeker`> tonyyarusso: thats what you think. I'm watching you!
[01:32] <IdleOne> you have the link to the process to follow if you wish to appeal
[01:32]  * charlie-tca is a volunteer, without a supervisor too
[01:33] <IdleOne> Jarrhed: I assume you will be appealing so the discussion is over for now. Please part the channel.
[01:33] <Fishscene> I guess for future reference, it might be wise to pick and choose words carefully and try to avoid words that might possibly be misconstrued as a racist slur.
[01:33] <Jarrhed> Fishsene: Thank you
[01:33] <Jarrhed> I will do so
[01:33] <Jarrhed> Have a good day everyone
[01:33] <Fishscene> NP mate.
[01:34] <IdleOne> Fishscene: How can we help you?
[01:34] <Fishscene> Actually, I was just on my way out.
[01:34] <Fishscene> Later days.
[01:35] <charlie-tca> hm, this is just like prison. No one ever commits a crime, but they get sent their anyway
[01:36] <Seeker`> noone ever does anything wrong on IRC
[01:36] <Seeker`> it was always their brother
[01:36] <IdleOne> I blame my cat and mother
[01:36] <IdleOne> either have equal chances of touching my keyboard and randomly hitting keys
[01:36] <charlie-tca> I'm thinking someone else was on my keyboard
[01:42] <tonyyarusso> s'jg  s iof io  0ae0 9[a  90[ag[ 0a[ g h oi hasf dzs hidasdo ghe0g aspogih s ;g ;aghio
[01:42] <tonyyarusso> I blame that on my future children.  Apparently they're smart enough to invent time travel.
[01:42] <tonyyarusso> But yet can't type a coherent sentence.
[01:43] <charlie-tca> I think it was when I was watching tv instead of my keyboard...
[02:08] <IdleOne> markboston reminds me a lot of killahaxz from earlier
[02:28] <Chaos2358> are there any ops present?
[02:28] <IdleOne> what's up
[02:29] <Chaos2358> ok first off i know this isn't the place to ask this but as an op i figured you guys would know. is there a channel for questions about game system emulators on ubuntu?
[02:29] <nhandler> You can find channels about a certain topic by using alis: /msg alis list *TOPIC* Chaos2358
[02:29] <Chaos2358> ok that works even better thank you
[05:14] <persia> ubottu, You know better than that.
[05:14] <persia> Right.
[07:09] <tonyyarusso> say, what do we recommend now that ebox has gone commercial?
[07:12] <elky> "gone commercial"?
[07:13] <tonyyarusso> http://www.zentyal.com/en/products/server/
[07:13] <tonyyarusso> They charge for security updates.
[07:15] <persia> We probably ought to construct some special flavour to fill that gap.
[07:22] <jussi> oh dear.
[07:22] <elky> jussi, you'll be at UDS? We can deal with him there.
[07:23]  * elky packs the cluebat collection.
[07:23] <jussi> elky: you are going to UDS?
[07:23] <elky> jussi, yes.
[07:23] <jussi> ok
[07:26] <tonyyarusso> where is UDS this time?
[07:26] <jussi> Orlando
[07:26] <tonyyarusso> ah
[07:27]  * tonyyarusso would like to go to that some day
[07:41]  * mneptok is still trying to determine whether or not he is going to UDS
[07:41] <mneptok> i'll get to that when i get home from Istanbul
[07:42] <maco> mneptok: whatcha doin in constantinople?
[07:42] <mneptok> reclaiming it for the Roman Empire. and having a company meeting.
[07:43] <mneptok> not necessarily in that order.
[07:46]  * persia thought the last heir ran off to paris in 1917 abdicating the claim, and wonders who will be propped up as a figurehead
[07:47] <maco> huh. that song was a cover when They Might Be Giants did it. didnt know that.
[07:56] <mneptok> persia: i expect to be name Preator Of The Supercluster soon
[07:56] <mneptok> *Praetor
[07:56] <persia> d
[07:57] <mneptok> OK, off to the Grand Bazaar. bbl.
[07:58] <tonyyarusso> You know, you'd think that if a staff member got disconnected all the time they'd try to fix the problem :P
[07:59] <KB1JWQ> Yeah.
[08:02] <persia> Might be sleeping, or otherwise inattentive.
[08:05] <tonyyarusso> Staff aren't allowed to sleep.
[08:08] <KB1JWQ> Sure we are.
[08:11] <elky> This is them lucid. You want to throw in sleep deprivation psychosis?
[08:17] <tonyyarusso> sure - cheap entertainment
[10:09] <ikonia> really frustrated with an ubuntu bug I've just fixed
[10:09] <ikonia> fuming infact
[10:09] <persia> which bug?
[10:09] <ikonia> I've had it open for 3 releases, to be told all kinds of junk about it, lost my rag, have a conversation with the developers of the product and it turns out it's simpley a lack of understanding for how the products changed
[10:10] <ikonia> 578035
[10:11] <ikonia> I've had too identical bugs logged and closed and had to fight to get this one open
[10:11] <ikonia> it's just been resoled, but only because I spoke to the developers myself
[10:11] <persia> That's almost always the best way to sort a bug.
[10:12] <ikonia> seems no point logging a bug then
[10:12] <ikonia> if the answer is "solve it yourself"
[10:13] <persia> Oh, that bug.  Far as I can tell the responsible program switches around randomly every release.
[10:13] <persia> Point of logging them is to encourage collaboration with the solve-it-yourself bit.
[10:13] <ikonia> no, it doesn't
[10:13] <ikonia> it's always been gnome-leyring
[10:14] <ikonia> and the ubuntu package mantainers should have owned it
[10:14] <persia> Firstly, it's switched between seahorse, gnome-keyring, and ssh-askpass-gnome a couple times.
[10:14] <persia> Secondly, one of the founding points of Ubuntu is that there are no Maintainers.
[10:14] <ikonia> not for this issue it's not
[10:14] <ikonia> so there is no package maintainers ?
[10:15] <persia> The fails-to-usefully-prompt-you-about-ssh-passwords-and-fails-to-cache issue?
[10:15] <persia> No, there are no package maintainers.
[10:15] <ikonia> no, there is no package maintainer for gnome-keyring ?
[10:15] <persia> Folks just fix whatever they feel like fixing.  Folks that fix a lot stop needing peer review.
[10:15] <persia> Nope.
[10:15] <ikonia> so no-one in the ubuntu developmeent team packages that or takes reponsability for that package ?
[10:17] <persia> Right.
[10:17] <persia> The Desktop team tends to care for it, just because it's part of Desktop and they care about Desktop, but it's not like a formal assignment or anything.
[10:17] <ikonia> no wonder peoples perception is that bugs don't get fixed
[10:18] <ikonia> that must be great for people using LTS releases in a business or SME envionrment
[10:18] <ikonia> utter fail
[10:18] <persia> No.  It's intentional.
[10:19] <persia> The idea is that when there is a solution for a bug, *anyone* can get it fixed.
[10:19] <persia> This is cool and interesting, and 5 years ago, was a new idea.
[10:19] <persia> Prior to that people would be responsible for packages, and if there was a bug and someone else had a solution, they would have to convince that person to fix it.
[10:19] <ikonia> then it's intentional fail
[10:19] <ikonia> it's not cool or interesting
[10:19] <ikonia> it's a failure
[10:20] <persia> Someone wrote a blog post back in 2006 comparing the Fedora and Ubuntu policies: that in Fedora a person got sponsored, and then could work on the packages they brought with them, whereas in Ubuntu the bugfix was sponsored, even if the person had no prior reputation.
[10:20] <ikonia> it's clearly not working
[10:20] <ikonia> as no-one has responsability to actually progress a bug
[10:20] <ikonia> which explains the perception of nothing gets fixed
[10:20] <persia> Well, it's intentional.  If you want package maintainers, find a distribution that still believes in this.  Most of the big ones are moving to collaborative teams and away from personal responsibility.
[10:21] <ikonia> I don't disagree you can collaberate
[10:21] <ikonia> but with no-one owning the relevant packages there is no responsability to either remove false bugs, or pogress ones that are genuine/important
[10:21] <ikonia> but, perhaps I do need to switch desktop distributions
[10:21] <persia> The idea is that everyone can participate in this.
[10:21] <ikonia> I'm crazy in thinking LTS got support
[10:22] <persia> You can buy support.  Lots of providers for that.
[10:22] <ikonia> lots of others just fix their own problems
[10:22] <persia> But for free, you only get the support that happens by accident, or as a side effect of others purchase decisions.
[10:22] <ikonia> that maybe ubuntus stance, for free you get what happens by accident
[10:22] <ikonia> thats a great quote
[10:23] <ikonia> the bug process is broke, and the perception is that bugs doens't get fixed, I now understand why, thank you
[10:23] <persia> I encourage you to help the bugsquad: if you know about solutions, or are willing to work with upstreams, there's no reason you can't ensure the bugs that bother you are fixed in Ubuntu.
[10:24] <ikonia> bugsquad is a joke
[10:25] <jpds> I don't get it.
[10:25] <ikonia> you've made the policy quite clear, you want something fixing, fix it yourself, if not use a different distro, I'll help myself and not bother with bugs
[10:25] <ikonia> and that's not meant as a dig, thats just clarified how things work
[10:29] <persia> Why is bugsquad a joke?  It's the team that accepts repsonsibility to try to process all the bugs: I thought that was precisely what you wanted.
[10:32] <persia> Anyway, all of Ubuntu is predicated on the premise that if anyone involved in Ubuntu in any way has a way to fix something, they will fix it in the primary archives.  In practice, people don't appear to do that always, but it remains a goal.
[10:36] <ikonia> persia: yes and it doesn't work, they closed this bug twice maked it as incomplete, and did everything but progress it
[10:36] <ikonia> and I see exampels of this all the time with bug squad
[10:36] <ikonia> the only ral value is removing duplicates from what I see
[10:36] <ikonia> real
[10:39] <persia> Some members of the bugsquad are more enthusiastic than competent, sure, but I think it's unfair to say that of everyone.
[10:40] <ikonia> I'm not saying everyone
[10:40] <ikonia> but enthusiasm over competency for progressing bugs is not acceptable
[10:41] <ikonia> read the fist post in that bug as an example, I had bugs logged that I could find, when I checked harder they had been closed
[10:41] <persia> I agree.  More folks helping not do that in bugsquad would improve the ratio.
[10:41] <ikonia> agreed
[10:41] <ikonia> or a vetting process
[10:42] <persia> There's a bit of one for some things, but the idea is for everyone to participate, in accordance with the CoC, and with care.
[10:42] <persia> I believe in the ideal, as much as I know it doesn't always work as well as we'd like in practice.
[10:42] <ikonia> then that's a failure
[10:43] <ikonia> it still needs trusted people lead the bug, rather than anyone gong nuts on it, anyone being allowed to join the bugsquad
[10:43] <ikonia> anyone should be able to contribute
[10:43] <ikonia> but through a conduit group/person
[10:44] <persia> Again, one of the reasons Ubuntu exists is specifically because it was awkward to work around such conduits.
[10:45] <ikonia> and it's one of the reasons bugs are not progressing or being progressed wrongly
[10:45] <ikonia> it's a double edged knife
[10:45] <persia> Personally, I'd not be involved with Ubuntu if it needed conduits: it was specifically the lack of conduits that got me involved.
[10:45] <persia> Yes, it is very much double-edged.
[10:46] <persia> And it requires a lot more of many of us to ensure that we can keep from being hit from the other side, and we're not doing as much as we should.
[10:46] <ikonia> I guess as you say, if you don't like the policy switch to a different distro
[10:46] <persia> I'd be sad to see anyone leave for that reason, but essentially, yeah.
[10:46] <persia> I'd prefer folks help make that policy less painful for everyone.
[10:46] <ikonia> well thats what I think is best, if I log a bug I expect it to be progrssed, not have to fight to keep it open and then end up doing %100 of the leg work myself
[10:47] <ikonia> I also expect the people in the bug squad to be compitent and trained not let anyone in
[10:47] <persia> I guess.  It's because I was *allowed* to do the legwork and *allowed* to get the fix into Ubuntu when I finally found it that I became an Ubuntu developer.
[10:47] <ikonia> thats personal opinion though, not a critisism of the process
[10:47] <persia> Don't forget the other edge of the knife.
[10:48] <persia> Fair :)
[10:48] <ikonia> I've never had problems getting fixes into other distros, so I dont see that side the knife as broken
[10:48] <ikonia> and as maintainers for other distros I appreciated the filtered quality coming through the chain, rather than idiots sending "I rebooted and it worked, is it fixed"
[10:48] <ikonia> but that's personal opinion
[10:50] <persia> I suppose.  The environment was different when Ubuntu was created.  Stuff like updating the default python version, using current GNOME, using current GCC, using modular X, etc. were new ideas, and most distros wouldn't accept them.
[10:50] <jussi> Lads, there is likely a better channel for this discussion, no?
[10:50] <persia> The environment is different now.
[10:50] <persia> jussi, is there one?
[10:50]  * persia agrees it's well off-topic, but doesn't know if it's on-topic anywhere
[10:51] <jussi> persia: -offtopic I suppose, but yeah.
[10:51] <persia> ikonia, Are we done, or shall I join -offtopic? :)
[10:52] <ikonia> persia: if -offtopic was worth having a genuine serious discussion in, I'd love to continue, but as it's a pit for people to make stupid comments, hit the bot and say lol - I'd say probably better done
[10:52] <persia> ikonia, Works for me :)  if you get another bug that's bothering you, come to #ubuntu-bugs, and lets try to sort it the other way without letting 3 releases go by :)
[10:53] <ikonia> persia: been through all that, that's how I found the bugs had been closed
[10:53] <ikonia> hence my comment of " a joke" when you get reponses like "wait until the next release"
[10:53] <persia> Yeah, but done :)
[10:54] <ikonia> agreed, responses where appreciated though, even if I didn't seem positive about them
[11:34] <jrib> ikonia: you following malicai on ##windows?
[11:34] <ikonia> jrib: no, I'll look
[11:35] <ikonia> jrib: interesting conlflict of info between ##windows and #ubuntu
[12:02] <ikonia> popey: 9:58 -!- sam_jbot [~sam@host81-156-14-216.range81-156.btcentralplus.com]
[12:02] <ikonia> is that mesula/sam/xasdfsd
[12:05] <popey> not sure, has been sane
[12:05] <ikonia> ha
[12:05] <popey> been in and out over the last few weeks
[12:05] <popey> in other news... http://paste.ubuntu.com/
[12:05] <ikonia> just curious as the known sam guy is now connecting from a swansea uni IP
[12:05] <popey> look at the ubuntu logo
[12:05] <popey> the word "ubuntu" in white text is over the top of the logo
[12:06] <ikonia> I don't see it
[12:06] <ikonia> (can't highlight it)
[12:07] <popey> the text is "Ubuntu Pastebin"
[12:07] <ikonia> what am I missing ?
[12:07] <ikonia> looks like the normal logo and text
[12:08] <popey> http://twitpic.com/2wyla1
[12:11] <bazhang> bigbrovar, hi, how can we help you
[12:14] <ikonia> ahhh I see
[12:44] <elky> popey, I see it too...
[12:44]  * elky headdesks
[12:58] <bazhang>  [vipul] (~j0k3r@113.19.129.140): j0k3r  looks like bihari
[13:00] <bazhang> PM'd him and asked him to exit, he did
[13:03] <bazhang> came back right away though.
[13:04] <Pici> bazhang: Are you sure thats him?
[13:04] <bazhang> Pici, yes, 100% certain
[13:05] <bazhang> he was trying to get a new cloak with that a few days ago. then grouped the j0k3r nick to the old one
[13:05] <Pici> bazhang: Did you mention to staff that he might be doing that do evade a ban?
[13:06] <bazhang> Pici, yes, ikonia and both were there, when he was asking for a cloak; I did not PM them directly though.
[13:06] <bazhang> ie a new , second cloak
[13:08] <bazhang> bihari, hi
[13:08] <bazhang> bihari, you were just ban evading using the vipul nickname
[13:09] <bihari> hi bazhang why you baned?
[13:09] <bihari>  me
[13:10] <bihari> vipul nick whats wrong in it ?
[13:11] <bazhang> bihari, nothing, but you are banned. changing IP address to get around it is not OK
[13:12] <bihari> i am not changing
[13:12] <bihari> and i said sory for that to ikonia
[13:12] <bihari> thats my ISP provide me the IP
[13:12] <bihari> thats not mine fault
[13:13] <bihari> bazhang,  but i appolizes what  i did and i said sory for that and i really love this OS
[13:14] <bazhang> bihari, first you were using a cloak, then removed it to get back in. this is not the first time for you to ban evade.
[13:15] <bihari> i got clock
[13:15] <bihari> ?
[13:15] <bazhang> unaffiliated/bihari-/x-8167110
[13:15] <bihari> my nic is bihari_
[13:16] <bihari> this bihari is the state in india
[13:16] <bihari> it's state name in india
[13:16] <bihari> and my nick is bihari_
[13:18] <bihari> bazhang,  i really don't find any reasone of banning me
 so that i can bypass my college firewall
[13:19] <bazhang> bihari, that was the original reason.
[13:20] <bazhang> bihari, since then you have changed IP multiple times and dropped your cloak to get back in, even though your original ban was never lifted.
[13:20] <bihari> bazhang,  yah i said sory for that if you think it's offensive as you don't know my professor told me to do this
[13:21] <bazhang> its not offensive, it is not supported.
[13:21] <bihari> i am engineering student and we are used to make security and enhanced it trust me :) it's just for ethic and knowleg
[13:21] <bazhang> well try somewhere other than #ubuntu
[13:21] <bihari> and if you thinks it's offensive then i am really sory for that
[13:21] <bazhang> no, not offensive.
[13:21] <bazhang> not supported.
[13:22] <bihari> yes said that :) sory for that and i will never do this again in future
[13:22] <bazhang> bihari, you are still banned in #ubuntu
[13:23] <bihari> why you are so harsh on me :( i am just 18 year student and i have curosity to know about this open source :( why you doing this to me
[13:23] <bazhang> bihari, I dont feel confident about letting you back in at this time; you have ban-evaded so many times and not been honest about it.
[13:24] <bihari> oh god.
[13:26] <bihari> bazhang,  what i have to do? to come back in ubuntu channel ?
[13:27] <bazhang> bihari, as I said , I'm not confident in your behavior to let you back in right now
[13:28] <persia> bihari, I'd recommend hanging out in some other Ubuntu channels (maybe #ubuntu-in, or #ubuntu-offtopic or other places you might not be banned) and demonstrating good practices.
[13:28] <bihari> ok now i am just swtiching off this ubuntu and also all the work and activity which  i am doing for ubuntu in my college and in saminar
[13:28] <persia> Dunno if that would be sufficient, but it has worked for some other people in the past.
[13:28] <bazhang> +1
[13:28] <bihari> and now i am really got hurt by you guys
[13:29]  * persia meant no harm, and shuts up rather than cause more offens
[13:29] <bihari> bye
[14:13] <Pici> *sigh*
[14:13] <Pici> Another release, another bunch of people who give bad advice on how to upgrade.
[14:13] <bazhang> yikes
[14:14] <Pici> "update-manager -d","no its do-release-upgrade -d", "no, you should just need to apt-get dist-upgrade"
[14:16] <persia> Why are any of those bad?
[14:16] <persia> Until Natty happens, the first two ought work, and the third oughtn't break too much.
[14:17] <charlie-tca> to upgrade from 9.04?
[14:17] <Pici> persia: Because natty is fast approaching. And the last one was given without any other instructions. Just dist-upgrade and you get the new release.
[14:17] <persia> Aha.  Right.
[14:17] <Pici> And -d is a bad idea unless you know what you're doing.
[14:17] <Tm_T> persia: the learn poosibly dangerous method once, they rely on it
[14:18] <persia> I wonder if there oughtn't be a -t that is kinda like -d but only starts working post-beta
[14:18] <charlie-tca> I have upgraded for three releases using -d at alpha2
[14:18] <persia> charlie-tca, Right, but it's not best to use -d two weeks *after* release.
[14:19] <persia> The issue being that what works for +1 isn't necessarily safe for release.
[14:19] <Pici> Right,.
[14:19] <charlie-tca> correct.
[14:20] <persia> So, anyway, does anyone think it's worth having -t?
[14:20] <persia> If someone writes up a rationale, etc. for it, I'm more than happy to track down the code bits that need moving, assuming it doesn't get torn apart at UDS.
[14:20] <Pici> I'm not sure I get what the point of -t is. Could you re-explain?
[14:21] <persia> -t would be like -d, but safer.  It would only work once a release moved to beta, which means if people used it immediately post-release, it wouldn't drop them in a world of pain.
[14:21] <persia> Mind you, it's just a workaround to avoid the social engineering of convincing all the +1 folk to give new advice once the release happens.
[14:24] <Pici> I think it'll get nixed at UDS myself.
[14:25] <persia> Why?
[14:25] <maco> i like the idea...
[14:25]  * Pici shrugs
[14:25] <Pici> Maybe I'm wrong.
[14:26] <maco> does t = test?
[14:26] <persia> That was the semantic basis for my decision to select that letter, yes.
[15:42] <jussi> anyone know of a simple, easy to use, free  irc client for windows?
[15:43] <Pici> I personally usually use freenode's webchat or mibbit if I need to.
[15:43] <Pici> If I can't ssh that is.
[15:45] <h00k> putty/screen
[15:45] <h00k> mIRC is free for a bit, anyway
[15:46] <Pici> or putty rather.
[15:46] <Pici> Right.
[15:56] <Tm_T> putty works in windows too
[15:56] <Tm_T> ...I meant irssi (:
[15:56]  * Tm_T needs more coffee
[15:57]  * h00k slides Tm_T a cup
[15:58] <Tm_T> jussi: I also used Xircon at some point
[16:29] <jussi> thanks peoples... Im not lookin for me, but for a windows friend. think Ill recommend quassel...
[16:58]  * popey recommends colloquy
[16:58] <popey> but that requires them to buy a mac or an iphone ;)
[16:59] <popey> I belive this to be just as helpful as people suggesting irssi :p
[17:00] <persia> popey, Why?  See http://www.irssi.org/files/irssi_0_8_12_setup_2.exe
[17:00] <h00k> TheDeadCPU and Android001 were double-team-trolling with rm -rf /, for reference. I /queried them and asked them to stop
[17:00] <h00k> for reference.
[17:01] <jussi> h00k: use @mark ;)
[17:01] <h00k> I always forget @mark
[17:02] <ikonia> got rid of android, he knows what he's doing
[17:02] <jpds> Doesn't jussi go by the nick of android?
[17:02] <jussi> yes
[17:03] <ikonia>  on occasion
[17:03] <jussi> but not android001
[17:03] <Pici> jussi: you're doing it again.
[17:03] <jussi> grr
[17:03] <Pici> :)
[17:03] <jussi> always forget
[17:03]  * h00k notes
[17:03] <ikonia> ?
[17:03] <ikonia> doing what
[17:04] <Pici> Staying authed as the IRCC account.
[17:04] <popey> persia: I meant the "screen and irssi" suggestions
[17:04] <ikonia> ah
[17:04] <popey> however I didnt know it was available for windows, thanks!
[17:04] <persia> popey, screen is also available for windows, and putty -> unix shell is very common.
[17:11] <ikonia> #ubuntu is in a mess for some reason
[17:13] <Pici> ikonia: someone asked linenoise if they should use debian.
[17:13] <ikonia> not quite,
[17:13] <ikonia> they asked about other distros because they couldn't get ubuntu working
[17:13] <ikonia> he then went off to explain why debian is better
[17:14] <Pici> I must have missed part of that.
[17:14] <IdleOne> recommending debian is fine, the putting down of ubuntu while doing it is what bothers me.
[17:14] <IdleOne> no need to say one distro is crap while recommending another
[17:19] <IdleOne> Good morning btw
[17:19] <Pici> hi!
[17:20] <h00k> woo.
[17:20] <IdleOne> So i missed dpm classroom session but he was MIA.
[17:22] <h00k> It is a mess, but it is just after a release
[19:53] <IdleOne> How do the rest of you feel about the nick Nazzy?
[19:54] <Pici> Whats wrong with it?
[19:54] <Pici> Do I need to urbandict it?
[19:54] <IdleOne> nope
[19:54] <IdleOne> nothing wrong with it really, just how it sounds in my head I guess
[19:56] <topyli> natty!
[19:57] <ikonia> guys, why has +1 been set to invite only
[19:58] <ikonia> after all the discussion in here about just muting it
[19:58] <ikonia> why has it now been set to +1
[19:58] <ikonia> set to +i for +1
[19:59] <Pici> Because thats what we normally do?
[20:00] <IdleOne> I suppose to avoid having users msg +v and +o asking why they can't talk in the channel
[20:00] <ikonia> but there was a whole discussion in here about not closing it
[20:00] <ikonia> and leaving it open +m
[20:00] <Pici> Whats the point?
[20:00] <ikonia> Pici: I agree that's what we normally do, but after the drawn out discussion / debate that went on here, it was agreed to leave it open
[20:00] <ikonia> Pici: I agree it should have been closed
[20:00] <IdleOne> I didn't see that discussion. I am ok with it being +i or +m, whatever
[20:01] <Pici> I wasn't here for the discussion.
[20:01] <ikonia> I'm just wondering what a pointless waste of time it is discussing anything, agreeing it, then doing the opposite
[20:01] <ikonia> Pici: I know, I'm not bothered it's gone, I just think we are suffering from bad orginisation and communication again
[20:01] <Pici> jussi, nhandler, topyli, tsimpson ^^^ regarding +1?
[20:02] <ikonia> Pici: was it you that cleared it out of interest ?
[20:02] <Pici> (also maybe we should have an ops-like ircc command for ubottu)
[20:02] <Pici> ikonia: Nope.
[20:03] <ts2> iirc, the point was just not to clear it
[20:04] <ts2> as users didn't understand why they were kicked
[20:06] <jussi> I didnt do it....
[20:08] <ikonia> I don't actually care who did it, I'm bothered that we are once again not communicating decisions like this
[20:09] <ikonia> has it actually been cleared or is it just my client that's been disconnected
[20:10] <IdleOne> has 140 users in it right now
[20:10] <ikonia> looks like I've gone off on one about a mistake on my part
[20:10] <ikonia> my client died and couldn't get back in, it wasn't cleared
[20:10]  * Pici pats ikonia 
[20:10] <IdleOne> /attach #ubuntu+1
[20:10] <ikonia> odd that none of the other channels in my client appear to have been disconnected though #
[20:10] <Pici> You can use chanserv to invite yourself back in if you want.
[20:10] <ikonia> (normally you at leat see reconnect)
[20:10] <Pici> ikonia: you pinged out of here
[20:11] <ikonia> nah, it's fine, I was more worried that we had lost commuinication again rather than being in the channel
[20:11] <ikonia> don't know why irssi doesn't show the disconnect on any other client though
[20:11] <ikonia> any other channel though
[20:12] <IdleOne> you pinged at HH:55:16
[20:12] <ikonia> my fault, sorry
[20:13] <charlie-tca> for us normal users, it redirects to #ubuntu when connecting
[21:00] <lindsaymobil22> ikonia, look your community is really gonna get bad ratings for this
[21:00] <IdleOne> umm chaos asked her what the problem was, she probably missed seb's answer. just saying
[21:00] <ikonia> lindsaymobil22: I've removed you from the channel on a temporary basis
[21:00] <ikonia> lindsaymobil22: I asked you to stop asking the same question, two people where trying to help you
[21:00] <lindsaymobil22> This is one reason i didnt use ubuntu, the community was always so mean
[21:01] <lindsaymobil22> ikonia, did you not see that 1 guy wanted to see the question again!
[21:01] <ikonia> lindsaymobil22: if your missing the responses we can help you use IRC a little better
[21:01] <ikonia> lindsaymobil22: but you can't sit in the channel spamming the same question over and over when people are giving you the answer
[21:01] <lindsaymobil22> ikonia, people arent understanding the context of that question
[21:01] <Pici> (Chaos2358 asked what the question was)
[21:01] <lindsaymobil22> ikonia, i know how to use irc i aint a n00b
[21:01] <ikonia> lindsaymobil22: thats fine, then repeating it over and over won't help them understand
[21:01] <lindsaymobil22> Pici, +1
[21:02] <ikonia> lindsaymobil22: ok - then you've just lost all slack
[21:02] <ikonia> lindsaymobil22: if you know how to use IRC then you know that spamming/flooding the channel is unacceptable
[21:02] <ikonia> therefore you're banned
[21:02] <lindsaymobil22> What a horrible community
[21:02] <ikonia> I was about to remove the ban after just asking you to pay a little more attention
[21:02] <lindsaymobil22> Thanks a lot
[21:03] <lindsaymobil22> Really people's stereotypes on communities of certain distros are correct
[21:03] <ikonia> ok
[21:03] <lindsaymobil22> Im outta here, dont wanna spend another minute putting up with this
[21:04] <ikonia> ok
[23:34] <rww> Hey. chien in #ubuntu has been coming into there since at least the 6th (which is when my logfiles last reset, iirc) and speaking in a mix of Spanish and French, despite being told repeatedly the correct channels for non-English discussion by users and ops. At this point, a banforward to #ubuntu-fr might be useful ;)
[23:34] <rww> or #ubuntu-franish, if we have that ;P
[23:37] <rww> awesome, he's progressed to cussing in French
[23:38] <h00k> I suck.
[23:38] <Seeker`> h00k: yes. yes you do.
[23:39] <rww> h00k: nah, we just need to realign your sleep schedule so you're around when the other ops aren't ;P
[23:39] <Seeker`> :P
[23:39] <rww> anyways, thanks everyone :)
[23:40] <h00k> Seeker`: apologized in /query Chetic
[23:40] <Seeker`> h00k: :)
[23:41]  * h00k facepalms
[23:41] <Seeker`> hmm?
[23:41] <h00k> bah, I just feel silly
[23:43] <h00k> @login
[23:43] <h00k> @btlogin
[23:43] <h00k> For some reason, I cannot use ubottu to invite Chatic back to #ubunut. Do I need to be +o at the time/
[23:44] <Seeker`> no idea
[23:44] <h00k> #ubuntu, rather.
[23:44] <h00k> 17:44 [ubottu] Error: You don't have the #ubuntu,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that  you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
[23:44] <IdleOne> can't you use chanserv to invite?
[23:46] <h00k> Syntax: INVITE <#channel>
[23:46] <IdleOne> yes I know but I meant can chanserv be used to invite a user
[23:47] <h00k> I thought, I just haven't figured it out yet
[23:47] <h00k> +gisn't set, which is allow anyone to invite
[23:48] <IdleOne> doesn't look like it
[23:48] <IdleOne> h00k: yeah i don't think it will be set either
[23:54] <h00k> 17:52 [Chetic] aah no problem! thank you for being so polite about it :)
[23:55] <h00k> Phew!
[23:56] <IdleOne> mistakes happen :)