[01:36] <ScottL_> paultag, and holstein , i did something slightly like you were talking about perhaps
[01:37] <ScottL_> it was for the RPM Challenge and then we did it outside of that
[01:37] <ScottL_> http://blindchaos.rpmchallenge.com/
[01:37] <ScottL_> any person who wanted to join could submit music and it was all mixed together at the end
[01:37] <ScottL_> no one knew what the other was doing however, very interesting
[01:38] <ScottL_> outside of the rpm challenge we did a round robin type of thing, a serial process
[01:38] <ScottL_> one person recorded fifteen minutes and sent that to the next on the list,
[01:38] <ScottL_> this person recorded fifteen minutes using the previous music to "guide" him
[01:38] <ScottL_> this person only took his music and forwarded this, etc, etc
[01:39] <ScottL_> http://soundcloud.com/jazzs3quence/the-room-is-full-of-stars-or-the-last-time-ill-have-to-be-ricky-blanco-for-anybody
[01:40] <ScottL_> all good fun :)
[01:40] <holstein> ScottL_: cool
[01:44] <ScottL_> man, i don't think i've ever seen this much discussion on the -devel mailing list, on the wiki, and on the irc channel before :)
[01:44] <ScottL_> it's pretty darn awesome!
[01:44] <holstein> interest :)
[01:44] <holstein> ScottL_: let me know if theres another one of those 
[01:44] <holstein> thats public
[01:45] <holstein> that sounds fun 
[02:02]  * persia wonders if it anyone would be interested in writing a bzr-sex plugin, so that session-exchange diffs could be tracked in bzr in LP.
[02:03] <persia> http://murraysaul.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/how-to-collaborate-on-line-part-i/ has some links
[02:33] <ScottL_> one would most likely admit that the term "bzr-sex plugin" is slightly startling with it's loaded connotations ;)
[02:35] <ScottL_> persia, earlier you mentioned that in the STRUCTURE file the -generating and -recording packages should depend on audio rather than base
[02:35] <ScottL_> this seems a little confusing to me, wouldn't the -audio metapackage not be needed anymore
[02:36] <ScottL_> and i had been meaning to ask you as well, do we just leave the -audio meta alone for now?
[02:36] <ScottL_> i was going to suggest removing it, but it appears that you want it to be a dependency 
[02:36] <ScottL_> .
[02:36] <ScottL_> lastly, how soon can i start updating the seeds?
[02:37] <ScottL_> .
[02:37] <ScottL_> holstein, i've participated in the rpm challenge for the past two years, not only doing my own thing but blind chaos also
[02:37] <ScottL_> you can certainly join it too, it will be in february
[03:06] <persia> ScottL_, My suggestion was that common audio stuff belonged in an audio seed.  I agree that there's no reason to make a task or metapackage from that seed.  On the other hand, it's a lot easier to have a common seed for the common stuff than to try to manually maintain commonality between other seeds.
[03:07] <persia> Seed changes can happen now, and will take effect as tasks within a day or so.  Changes to the metapackages require a rebuild.
[03:07] <persia> Oh, and "sex" is a fairly old abbreviation from lau@ for Ardour Session Exchange
[03:09] <ScottL_> lol, i knew about the session exchange acronym, but didn't make the correlation at first :P
[03:11] <ScottL_> persia, sorry if i'm being dense, then we will have a metapackage for -base, -generating, and -recording
[03:11] <ScottL_> in -generating and -recording we will define tasks
[03:11] <ScottL_> -base will NOT define a task
[03:12] <persia> Two things.  Firstly, I suggest not calling anything "base" in the ubuntustudio seed collection.  The name is too low-level, and likely to have a future conflict.
[03:12] <persia> We're really talking about common audio apps between -generating and -recording.
[03:12] <ScottL_> but you mentioned audio before, can we still use the -audio metapackage then?
[03:12] <ScottL_> use -audio for common package?
[03:13] <persia> Secondly, I can't see any reason to have a  metapackage or task for the common stuff.  The relationship between seeds and tasks and metapacakges is not one-to-one-to-one.
[03:13] <persia> My suggestion was to have a common seed, named "audio", which generated no metapackage or task.
[03:13] <ScottL_> oh, oh, oh, i'm confusing the seeds with metapackages
[03:13] <persia> And to use STRUCTURE to ensure that the packages listed in this seed would be part of the metapackages and tasks associated with -generating and -recording.
[03:14] <persia> Right.  One can turn a seed into a metapackage, but one doesn't need to do so.  Seed relationships are used to create lists of packages which then can be used for a metapackage.
[03:15] <persia> One can also turn a seed into a task: the decision to do so is separate from the decision to create a metapackage, but roughly the same model applies for each of tasks or metapackages.
[03:17] <paultag> ScottL_, hummm
[03:17] <paultag> ScottL_, totally worth some thought, I think
[03:17] <ScottL_> just to be explicit, are you suggesting that the audio seed (which historically has been used to create the metapackage ubuntustudio-audio) be used for the common audio apps
[03:18] <ScottL_> but it will not create a metapackage anymore? persia
[03:18] <persia> Oh, I forgot about the current use of that seed.
[03:19] <persia> Yeah, we probably want to use something like "audio-common" so that we can provide a transition package for upgraders who have the "ubuntustudio-audio" metapackage installed.
[03:19] <ScottL_> doh, i didn't think about upgrading, *shakes head* man, planning all this is involved
[03:20] <persia> Yep.
[03:20] <ScottL_> okay, all new seeds to be created, and we will want to remove ubuntustudio-audio task from cwatson's list 
[03:21] <ScottL_> and i'm presuming we can just leave the -audio seed for now in the bzr code?
[03:21] <persia> Um, maybe.
[03:22]  * persia drafts a reference note
[03:29] <persia> ScottL_, http://typewith.me/CpXbqtFUq6
[03:30] <ScottL_> hey, that's cool persia, i'm watching you type :)
[03:33] <persia> ScottL_, So, based on what I've started in the Natty section, do you see what I mean now?
[03:40] <persia> holstein, Thoughts?
[03:41] <persia> (and you're both encouraged to add more in the Natty section: I'm not sure i have a full grip on everything that belongs there)
[03:42]  * holstein just catching up on what you have there
[03:47] <holstein> ill have to digest that a bit
[03:48] <persia> No worries.  The main thing is that I thought we'd do better at figuring out how to structure the tasks and metapackages with shared text than just IRC discussion :)
[03:48] <holstein> yeah
[03:48] <holstein> i like etherpad
[03:48] <holstein> handy 
[03:52] <ScottL_> sorry, wife got home and kids descended upon her (and therefore on me as well)
[03:52] <ScottL_> looking at typewithme
[04:00] <ScottL_> i noticed that "supported" is empty and you say that it must be last, is this a special file persia?
[04:01] <ScottL_> i think i have a better understanding of the transition package also after reading that
[04:02] <persia> It is a special file.  There's still gaps in the full impementation, but it ideally represents the set of stuff not otherwise seeded for which we declare support.
[04:02] <persia> The current UIs are unable to represent support except for a crude approximation based on "main" and "universe".
[04:02] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement has more discussion
[04:03] <ScottL_> eh, that made me think about doctormo and his wizardpen package, maybe paultag can help if quadrispro is going to be away for a while ;)
[04:04] <ScottL_> and i tried to poke JFo today about getting the -lowlatency kernel in the archives, this i'm really nervous about making sure it happens
[04:05] <ScottL_> unfortunately, this would the be second time i've tried to contact JFo about support for abogani and the kernel for natty and not received a response, hopefully just coincidental and correlation :P
[04:05] <persia> Let's concentrate on the seed collection first :)
[04:10] <ScottL_> i don't want to press too much into the wizardpen package or the kernel support, but i do want to keep pushing it so it doesn't loose momentum, kinda like the website stuff
[04:10] <persia> Sure :)
[04:10] <ScottL_> which by the way, persia and jussi, i responded to the email about the latest website mockup and asked if he could use the proper blue and come up with a dark theme as well
[04:11] <persia> Right.
[04:11]  * ScottL_ is unsure if either of you follow all the mail on the list
[04:11] <paultag> ScottL_, where do you need me?
[04:12] <ScottL_> i'm not strictly sure we do ;) but doctormo has been working on a package for wizardpen support
[04:12] <ScottL_> he's been in contact with quadrispro, but i am unsure to which extent
[04:13] <paultag> Ahha
[04:13] <ScottL_> we, ubuntu studio, would like to support doctormo's efforts and wizardpen driver
[04:13] <paultag> Well doctormo and I are great friends
[04:13] <ScottL_> but he needs it packaged
[04:13] <paultag> we meet up in person regularly
[04:13] <paultag> Ah, rad. I can help him out
[04:13] <ScottL_> outstanding!
[04:13] <paultag> I'll let him know I'm here to help :)
[04:13] <ScottL_> capital
[04:14] <ScottL_> i'm not sure he explicitly understand that the package needs to be, well, umm...packaged and accepted into the archives before it can be included on the ubuntu studio iso
[04:14] <paultag> yeah, he has a hard time understanding procedure
[04:15] <paultag> ScottL_, is it something we need for N cycle?
[04:15] <ScottL_> lol, i've read some of his comments on the #ubuntu-community-team channel, he's quite disparaging sometimes :P
[04:15] <paultag> yeah, he really
[04:15] <paultag> he really is *
[04:15] <paultag> He's torn into me ( I'm on the Ubuntu LoCo Council ) on more then one instance
[04:16] <ScottL_> paultag, it would be nice to get it by natty, yes - if possible, not critical but is preferred though
[04:16] <paultag> OK -- ScottL_, I'm just worried about Debian freeze -- might have to get it into the Ubuntu repos then move it upstream after they release squeeze
[04:16] <ScottL_> i think it's good though that someone shake things up from time to time, but he seems to take it personally though
[04:16] <paultag> +1 ScottL_. He hates authority
[04:16] <ScottL_> i admire his passion though
[04:17] <paultag> He really is an awesome guy
[04:18] <ScottL> he's one of the people that i would like to meet at an UDS one day actually, i've read many of this thoughtful blogs and i have a feeling that i already know him :P
[04:18] <paultag> ScottL, yeah, he has been to almost every UDS in the past
[04:18] <paultag> ScottL, he will miss this one, I think ( not sure, though )
[04:19] <persia> He'll be there.
[04:19] <ScottL> i had thought that i might make this one, but, alas, i shall not
[04:19] <paultag> ah, thanks persia :)
[04:19] <ScottL> but i have high hopes for the next one
[04:19] <paultag> persia, what are the steps for getting a new package into Ubuntu for the next cycle?
[04:19] <paultag> persia, just because deb is in freeze
[04:21] <persia> Get two members of ~ubuntu-dev to agree it ought be uploaded and one of them to upload it.
[04:21] <paultag> ah that's not too bad
[04:21] <paultag> cool, thanks persia 
[04:22] <persia> Similar to procedure from Debian, except that packages in Debian only need one member of ~ubuntu-dev because we trust debian as we'd trust ourselves.
[04:22] <paultag> Yup. Sounds right :)
[04:22] <persia> It's usually fairly trivial: the only reason it's more complicated than "just upload it" is because we all make mistakes, so we try to do peer review.
[04:23] <paultag> for sure, for sure
[04:23] <paultag> good thing I have lots of MOTU friends :)
[04:23] <persia> ScottL, So, Are there more questions about seeds/tasks/metapackages now?  Do you still need me to be paying close attention to etherpad and the channel?
[04:23] <paultag> I should really try for MOTU at some point :/
[04:30]  * persia takes silence as "no"
[04:31]  * persia hasn't saved the etherpad: if the contents are interesting to someone for posterity, they may want to grab a local copy
[04:35] <paultag> persia, hate to keep pinging you ( I feel like I'm going to wear you thin after a while ). How hard is it to get accepted as a MOTU? I was thinking of just getting my DM upstream and then applying for MOTU after, but I feel like I won't apply for DM for a solid year or so from now at the least
[04:36] <persia> Becoming a MOTU can be trivially easy or fiendishly difficult, depending on your personality, communication skills, technical skills, preexisting work in Ubuntu, etc.
[04:36] <paultag> heh, good answer :/
[04:37] <persia> I can't speak for anyone else, but my basic criteria when reviewing folk are as follows: 1) I've seen them interacting closely with other MOTU on work on unseeded packages, and with a QA attitude, 2) They have a reasonable number of credited uploads, some of which required some significant technical work on their own (rather than just patch management)
[04:38] <paultag> persia, does Debian credit count to Ubuntu credit?
[04:38] <persia> 3) There appears to be a commitment to archive quality and similar MOTU goals, and 4) they are joining MOTU as a pointless hurdle to their continued work on Ubuntu rather than because that is a goal in it's own right.
[04:39] <paultag> mmm. Thanks persia. I think I'll wait another year or so. I've been around for 3, no sense in rushing things.
[04:39] <persia> It's not that formal.  Work in Debian can count towards some of my criteria, and I have no idea what criteria others use, or whether work in Debian counts.  Work solely in Debian is not typically sufficient on social grounds (although it may meet technical requirements)
[04:39] <persia> If you want to work with the Studio team, I'd recommend against MOTU actually.
[04:39] <paultag> mmhum
[04:39] <paultag> persia, Oh?
[04:39] <persia> Nothing done on Studio counts for MOTU in my book (not unseeded packages)
[04:40] <persia> That said, there's no reason not to try to become an Ubuntu Studio developer, which grants upload to everything seeded in Studio (except core stuff or stuff inherited from Desktop)
[04:40] <paultag> Humm, cool.
[04:41] <persia> Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but my criteria for that are close to my MOTU criteria, except I'm looking at integration with and support from the Studio team rather than the MOTU team, and work on Studio packages rather than unseeded packages.
[04:41] <paultag> sounds quite sane to me
[04:42] <paultag> thanks persia :)
[04:43] <persia> No problems.  We can always use more developers, and more uploaders, and anything I can do to make you more comfortable applying to be the right sort of developer hastens the process.
[04:43] <persia> (as I suspect it would be disappointing to get turned down for MOTU because all your work was only on Studio.
[04:43] <paultag> heh, I don't mind about that
[04:43] <ScottL> persia, i do not think you need pay attention to the channel or etherpad currently, i think the path is pretty well defined although i expect some things to arise during the process
[04:44] <paultag> I really don't want to be on the MOTU muchly persia, really just so I can keep my stuff in sync with Debian
[04:44] <paultag> persia, sounds great. I'll just plug away on routine work, but run it through the channels. After I feel like my changes go through with minor to no issues, I'll apply :)
[04:44] <persia> ScottL, Sure.  I'm always happy to answer questions: just wanted to make sure you didn't feel we were still in the middle of a discussion before pushing that stuff off my current active stack.
[04:45] <persia> paultag, strive for s/minor to// :)
[04:45] <paultag> :)
[04:45] <paultag> I'll make sure they're clean ;)
[14:09] <scott-work> someone should adjust the topic now that maverick is released and natty is in development
[14:09] <scott-work> if someone would tell me how I would be happy to do it :)
[14:09]  * persia investigates the access list
[14:10] <persia> jussi, Could you sort stuff?  ubuntustudio-dev looks particilarly odd.
[14:11] <persia> scott-work, At least this channel is +t (you can check with /mode), so you should be able to use "/topic" to confirm the topic and "/topic foo" to set the topic to "foo".
[14:12] <scott-work> persia: what part of ubuntustudio-dev looks odd?
[14:12] <persia> scott-work, The ChanServ access list
[14:12] <scott-work> oh, nothing i know about then
[14:13] <persia> It's about permissions for this channel.  Nothing you need to worry about short-term.
[14:43] <jussi> [16:43:44] [ChanServ] Flags +votiA were set on persia in #ubuntustudio-devel.
[14:44]  * persia blinks at -dev vs. -devel and slaps forehead
[14:53] <persia> ScottL, Try changing the topic again.
[15:01] <scott-work> persia: i hadn't actually tried yet, work is commanding most of my attention at the moment
[15:02] <persia> OK.  Let's see if what I did worked, just to make sure you can change in the future.
[15:16]  * scott-work didn't like the double brackets
[15:21] <persia> Excellent.  Please complain if there are /topic fights, and it can be locked again
[15:23] <jussi> scott-work: please group this nick with your main nick.
[15:23] <jussi> /msg nickserv group 
[15:23] <jussi> for help
[15:23] <jussi> /msg nickserv help group 
[15:24] <scott-work> jussi: i will do that
[15:25] <jussi> scott-work: when you have Ill add you to the access list here
[15:25] <scott-work> jussi: i believe i just did it
[15:25] <scott-work> -NickServ- Nick scott-work is now registered to your account.
[15:26] <jussi> [17:26:11] [ChanServ] Flags +votiA were set on ScottL_ in #ubuntustudio-devel.
[15:42] <scott-work> jussi: was that suppossed to be ScottL_ ?  with the underscore?
[15:43] <jussi> scott-work: your account name is ScottL_
[15:49] <persia> You may be able to convince NickServ to change your account name, but that may require some fiddling.
[15:50] <scott-work> oh, i dont' really care, just surprised but i think i know what i did
[15:50] <scott-work> i think ScottL is ScottL and i registered scott-work as ScottL_
[15:51] <persia> You might want to combine them at some point.
[15:57] <scott-work> how complicated is that? and will this grossly affect what jussi did?
[15:58] <persia> ChanServ ought cope.
[16:18] <paultag> yeah, if you nick to ScottL and ident, then /ns group scottl_ it should work OK
[16:18] <paultag> scott-work / scottl_ was registered 52 minutes ago, so you can always ungroup and regroup, but chanserv would drop the flags
[18:07] <scott-work> thanks paultag, going to try something also
[18:11] <scott-work> abogani: the realtime kernel wiki is filling up nicely, the matrix is getting quite full :)
[18:36] <scott-work> for those interested, the october team report has been started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports
[18:52] <scott-work> jussi or persia: do you have any experience with Ng?  I am trying to contact him about getting access to the ubuntustudio.org website (per cory) and am waiting a repsonse from him, should i expect to wait long perhaps?
[18:53] <jussi> #canonical-sysadmin is your best bet, as well as email'
[18:56] <scott-work> thanks jussi, i'll try those as well
[19:00] <jussi> oh and scott-work, be patient ;)
[19:01] <scott-work> jussi: right, i had already pinged Ng about it, I'll let it wait until the end of the day and then i'll send an email to rt@ubuntu.com then
[19:02] <jussi> scott-work: send the email now, then they have it in the tracker. then ping them tomorrow.
[19:02] <scott-work> jussi: roger that
[20:12] <scott-work> paultag:  have you talked to doctormo about the wizardpen driver yet?
[20:16] <scott-work> i'm curious to how he responds about getting the package into the archives
[21:57] <paultag> scott-work, yeah, I did -- he's not pung me back
[21:58] <paultag> scott-work, I'll give him another poke
[22:02] <scott-work> LOL, you poked him all right
[22:03] <paultag> heh
[22:03] <paultag> scott-work, What do you think?
[22:04] <scott-work> paultag: i don't know at this point, my brain is too fried from work and other studio priorities :/
[22:04] <paultag> No worries, thanks scott-work 
[22:05] <scott-work> maybe persia has a suggestion - doctormo says that his wizardpen driver doesn't work in maverick (only in lucid) because of the xorg update, he needs programmers and someone to test
[22:05] <scott-work> i'd be happy to buy a tablet to test if someone volunteered to work on the code
[22:05] <paultag> Ah
[22:05] <paultag> scott-work, doc-mo says there might be a driver that translates wizardpen to wacom
[22:06] <paultag> and that would be awesome ( and stable, I think )
[22:07] <scott-work> oh, ah...yes, i was hoping we could use his package in the interim between when something gets stable and finally included in the kernel
[22:10] <scott-work> but thank you, paultag, for looking into it though
[22:10] <paultag> scott-work, of course
[22:10] <paultag> I'm here to help, it would be shady for me to turn down such a clear-cut task with someone I already know :)
[22:30] <scott-work> well, i'm left sad because it seems like we will not be able to make this happen :(
[22:30] <scott-work> but it is what it is
[22:38] <scott-work> paultag: i saw you were thinking about doing something for the FCS at the UDS about US
[22:38] <scott-work> paultag: what sort of thing were you thinking about doing?
[22:38] <paultag> scott-work, I saw on the website mockup that there was a music player for user generated content
[22:38] <paultag> scott-work, if there is going to be a player, there better be a place to put that stuff ;)
[22:39] <scott-work> yes :)
[22:39] <paultag> scott-work, so I was thinking of mocking up something simple, then giving it over to the guys doing the ubuntun free culture stuff
[22:39] <scott-work> when detrate` was working on a new website based on wordpress he felt extremely confident about putting that in
[22:39] <paultag> and eventually if it goes well, just have a studio tag or something. Not too clue yet
[22:39] <paultag> awesome :)
[22:40] <scott-work> paultag: that sounds extremely cool :)
[22:40] <paultag> scott-work, I was going to get it mocked up and demo-able
[22:40] <paultag> scott-work, then present it for revisions etc, don't worry I am not a loose cannon :)
[22:40] <scott-work> oh no, wasn't worried about that, was curious and enthusiastic about what i read :)
[22:41] <paultag> scott-work, cool :)
[22:41] <paultag> scott-work, I did something similar with documents a while ago. I think I might be able to kinda "merge" the two
[22:41] <scott-work> paultag: here's a video i did with blender, just about four hours work, done with all ubuntu studio - http://vimeo.com/14034958
[22:41] <paultag> kickass!
[22:42] <paultag> playing now :)
[22:42] <scott-work> wait till the other one of me shows up ;)
[22:42] <paultag> Oh, I'm there :)
[22:42] <scott-work> they're both first takes, just improvising, the whole purpose was to green screen and composite the other "me" into the video
[22:42] <paultag> for sure
[22:43] <paultag> scott-work, Oh, and something I was thinking about -- posting half made "sketches", and then letting people take them down and post them back with another track 
[22:43] <scott-work> that's similar to what i had thought before
[22:43] <paultag> Yeah, I think we were talking about this :)
[22:43] <paultag> scott-work, cute kid :)
[22:44] <scott-work> this is different, from a long time ago - my idea was more of a "riff bank" where you post something when you can't work it further and let other people see what they can do
[22:44] <scott-work> thanks
[22:44] <scott-work> maybe they post it back with some changes, maybe they finish a song with it
[22:45] <scott-work> paultag: this could work with whole songs, maybe someone writes good riffs but doesn't do vocals or leads
[22:46] <scott-work> someone could surf through songs, find one that strikes them, and then add vocals or lead to it