=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
MootBotMeeting started at 09:00. The chair is bac.15:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:00
bacshow of hands15:00
* mars pokes leonardr 15:01
gary_poster(bac's earlier poke--thank you--used leonard not leonardr fwiw)15:02
bacgary_poster: fixed, thanks15:02
gary_posternp, ty15:02
bacflacoste: ping15:02
bacbigjools: ping15:03
bac== Agenda ==15:03
bac * Roll call15:03
bac * Agenda15:03
bac * Outstanding actions15:03
* bigjools is here15:03
bac * Mentat update.15:03
bac   * salgado (ui)15:03
bac   * henninge (ui)15:03
bac   * stevenk (code)15:03
bac * New topics15:03
bac   * Survey on using the ArchitectureGuide in reviews.15:03
bacso not much on the agenda so perhaps this will be brief15:03
bacsalgado: ping15:03
salgadohi there15:04
* salgado needs to re-add this meeting to his calendar15:04
bac[topic] outstanding actions15:04
MootBotNew Topic:  outstanding actions15:04
bac[topic] * Sinzui to investigate making lint check for the Storm 'in' gotcha15:04
MootBotNew Topic:  * Sinzui to investigate making lint check for the Storm 'in' gotcha15:04
bacsinzui: any progress last week on that?15:05
sinzuiSome progress. My effort always reports 5 sql issues instead of 0 storm issues15:05
sinzuiWe could switch the 5 issues to storm and say the regex works15:06
bacok, we'll roll it over.  thanks for beginning the investigation.15:06
bac[topic]  HenningE to add a note to the PSG about the use of any15:06
MootBotNew Topic:   HenningE to add a note to the PSG about the use of any15:06
bachenning is not in the meeting today and i didn't think to look beforehand, so no new15:07
bac[topic] * Mentat update.15:07
bac   * salgado (ui)15:07
MootBotNew Topic:  * Mentat update.15:07
bacsalgado: you're the only mentat here.  getting any UI reviews?15:07
salgadohaven't done many reviews last week15:07
salgadomaybe because it was week 3?15:07
bacsalgado: i'll have one for you tomorrow15:07
salgadook, cool15:07
bacstevenk was absent last week so i'm not sure how his mentoring is going15:08
bac[topic] New topics15:08
MootBotNew Topic:  New topics15:08
bac[topic]  Survey on using the ArchitectureGuide in reviews.15:08
MootBotNew Topic:   Survey on using the ArchitectureGuide in reviews.15:08
bacthis is really an old topic15:08
bacbut lifeless asked me to address it again here.15:08
bache's really interested to hear feedback on how incorporating the core values he outlined for our architecture guidelines are showing up in reviews15:09
sinzuiI think the document is really about architecture ideals. I agree with everything written15:09
bacdoes anyone have any feedback?15:09
bacsinzui: and do you find they are applicable as you're evaluating branches?15:09
baci've not gone through reviews to see if reviewers are asking probing questions regarding scalability, query counts, etc15:12
abentleybac: I think it needs to be taken with a huge chunk of salt-- while these are reasonable principles, I would like to see YAGNI and KISS there, to balance out scope-creep/premature-optimization tendencies.15:12
bacabentley: those are good ideas.  and it is a wiki.  please add your ideas.15:13
baclifeless reports he's getting pressure from "management" to show how we're incorporating the architecture guidelines.15:14
bacuh, flacoste, would you like to address that?15:14
flacosteyeah, i'm the pressure :-)15:14
flacosteone thing that he's proposed is to use metrics around these principles15:15
flacostei wondered if people had tried using them15:15
flacosteat all15:15
flacosteand if not, why15:15
flacostethose metrics are tentative, but without feedback we cannot iterate over them15:15
bacso i'm looking the metric over.  (follow along at https://dev.launchpad.net/ArchitectureGuide#Design%20metrics)15:17
bactoday i introduced a new test.  it is nowhere near 2 secs.15:18
bacmy reviewer didn't bring it up and neither did i.  so we fail.15:19
marsflacoste, case studies and practice.  Also, introducing five new metrics at once sounds like a bit much.  Usually we only add one new review check-point a week, tops15:20
marsSo, "This weeks's (or month's) effort is to not write any new tests over 2 seconds.  Ask your reviewer to check"15:21
flacostethat sounds sane15:21
marssane is good15:21
flacosteshould we do that?15:21
bacmars: i agree. thanks for the suggestion15:21
gary_poster+1 on mars point; that jibes with some hunch I couldn't put my finger on15:21
bacflacoste: +1. i think the problem is one of just being overwhelmed15:21
leonardrthis is more a nitpick, but a value judgement like "expected to deal with <100 bug tracker types" is difficult to make ahead of time. "O(N) in the number of bug tracker types" is easier15:21
flacosteleonardr: it's a wiki :-)15:22
flacosteand there were no follow-ups to lifeless announcement of the guide and request for feedback15:22
flacostebac, can you follow-up with mars' plans and coordinate the results?15:22
bacflacoste: i will15:22
marsfor the room: https://dev.launchpad.net/ArchitectureGuide?action=subscribe15:23
gary_poster(FWIW, I don't like the "it's a wiki" answers--thattoo much when someone owns the page/process like this.  That said, ack to flacoste's other point about a lock of follow-ups)15:23
gary_posterargh, was in middle of edit15:23
bac[action] bac and mars to come up with a plan for gently introducing new reviewer guidelines wrt the architecture document15:23
MootBotACTION received:  bac and mars to come up with a plan for gently introducing new reviewer guidelines wrt the architecture document15:23
gary_poster...I don't like the "it's a wiki" answers--that's the second one--too much...15:23
gary_posterand s/lock/lack/15:24
flacostegary_poster: sending an email to the author with the suggestion is an alternative15:24
abentleyI think "it's a wiki" answers are actually wrong.  If we're adjusting review criteria, we should bring it up in the reviewer meeting.15:25
gary_postersure, +1, or a "suggestions" section on the bottom of a wiki15:25
gary_posteryeah, that makes sense to me.15:25
gary_poster(bring it up in the reviewer mtg, that is)15:25
gary_posterthough email works too15:25
leonardrlet me rephrase it as a non-nitpick: are we supposed to measure at what point scalability becomes a problem, or consider the performance characteristics in the abstract?15:25
bacabentley: you are correct.  i didn't mean for it to stifle discussion.  at the same time, as the owner of the new idea you should be willing to edit the doc after the discussion is over15:25
leonardri think the latter is better on the yagni principle15:26
leonardrand because the pieces of launchpad interact--if there are 100 bug tracker types there are probably a few million bugs15:27
gary_posterI like the latter description too, but flacoste is after a measurement.  Perhaps multiple suggested measurements would be an option, but that has additional problems, for possibly not much of a solution15:27
gary_poster(and I like measurements too)15:27
flacostei think it's the former actually measure at what point (scalability becomes a problem)15:28
flacostebecause a O(N) algorithm isn't a problem when you know the data set is small15:28
flacosteso it really depends on the application15:28
flacostebut sure, abstract analysis is useful in the analysis15:29
flacostebut still, the key question to answer is: will this scale given our data set (and expected growth)15:29
bacany other discussion on this one?15:30
bac[topic] any other issues?15:31
MootBotNew Topic:  any other issues?15:31
leonardr(i can go on, but it doesn't have to be part of the meeting)15:31
bacleonardr: please do.  let's end the meeting, though, and people can stay and chat15:32
MootBotMeeting finished at 09:32.15:32
marsthanks bac15:32
leonardrto me, "This component is expected to deal with < 100 bug tracker types", even if someone actually went and measured and found that 100 was the point where the problems started, doesn't say anything beyond "this algorithm is superlinear but we don't expect n to be very large"15:33
leonardrfor an algorithm that's superlinear in the number of bugs associated with a bugtask, or an algorithm that's o(n^2), i'd be more interested in an actual measurement15:35
jelmerleonardr: As I understand it that's all it's meant to indicate, perhaps it's more useful to say that rather than mentioning (unfounded) estimates.15:36
flacosteleonardr: i can agree with that15:38
leonardrok, i'll edit the wiki15:38
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=== salgado-physio is now known as salgado
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=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-bbl
=== salgado is now known as salgado-afk

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