[09:03] <bilalakhtar> Oh a netsplit!
[12:50] <thorwil> mpt: what do you think about http://www.foopics.com/showfull/c7e1ce704b9de523e51ec5d4a3569003
[12:52] <JanCBorchardt> thorwil: do you know http://picasaweb.google.com/100804433705878937883/Mockups# – what about them?
[12:54] <thorwil> JanCBorchardt: yes, i know them. associates the transport controls more with the track, less with the player. smaller targets, further away from the menu icon
[12:56] <mpt> thorwil, it reduces the number of visible columns, which is good. The playback control layout is consistent with Rhythmbox and VLC, but inconsistent with Banshee, Totem, Decibel, and Exaile.
[12:56] <thorwil> JanCBorchardt: my actual thoughts are http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/ayatana-sound-menu-2/ but here i tried to change only was has chances of being accepted
[12:57] <thorwil> mpt: it follows that the control layout is inconsistent between those you listed ...
[12:57] <mpt> JanCBorchardt, ah, I was trying to find those mockups yesterday
[12:57] <mpt> thorwil, yes :-)
[12:57] <JanCBorchardt> thorwil: ah right, now I remember reading your post
[12:57] <mpt> add Listen to the second list
[12:57] <JanCBorchardt> mpt, me too ;)
[12:58] <thorwil> mpt: there's a DIN/ISO-somthing norm about transport control layout
[12:58] <JanCBorchardt> weehu, it‘s aday :)
[12:58] <mpt> thorwil, seriously?
[12:59] <aday> JanCBorchardt: hey :)
[12:59] <thorwil> mpt: yes. i might be able to dig  it up, but then again, in a case like this, making play/pause mots easily accessible beats much everything else, i'd say
[12:59] <mpt> yeah
[13:00] <thorwil> which is one reason i placed them above track info
[13:00] <aday> so what's happening?
[13:00] <mpt> all righty then
[13:01] <mpt> Is anyone else here going to UDS?
[13:01] <thorwil> \o
[13:01] <mpt> ah, of course
[13:01] <thorwil> i was on the standby-list, so not that of course ;)
[13:02] <mpt> Of course as in, I should have known that
[13:02] <mpt> So there are a few UX-related sessions registered so far
[13:02] <mpt> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-design-n-science-of-colour
[13:03] <mpt> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-design-n-type-in-the-desktop
[13:03] <mpt> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-design-n-research-to-design
[13:03] <mpt> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-design-n-china
[13:03] <mpt> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-n-china-follow-up
[13:03] <mpt> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-design-n-ayatana-update <- that one's about us
[13:03] <mpt> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-design-n-design-in-open-source <- so is that
[13:04] <mpt> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-design-n-feedback
[13:04] <mpt> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-design-n-community <- that one's about us too
[13:05] <mpt> Probably there are more coming
[13:05] <thorwil> cool
[13:06] <godbyk> Oops. Andchat didn't tell me anyone was talking in here. Sorry I'm late.
[13:06] <mpt> hi godbyk
[13:06] <thorwil> broken link: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-design-n-china
[13:06] <godbyk> hey, mpt
[13:06] <JanCBorchardt> thorwil: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-n-china
[13:06] <JanCBorchardt> mpt: thanks!
[13:06] <mpt> I think aday might like to call for help with the HIG now :-)
[13:07] <wers-brb> yep
[13:07] <JanCBorchardt> what about remote participation? I will not be in Florida
[13:07] <aday> help!!!
[13:07] <wers> lol
[13:08] <aday> before that - i want to ask - which of those sessions are most relevant for gnomey folks?
[13:08] <mpt> JanCBorchardt, there will almost certainly be streaming audio and IRC for each room. I don't see any details on that at the moment, but subscribe to <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-N> if you haven't already
[13:09] <aday> in particular - is the fonts session particularly related to the ubuntu font, or is it more generic than that?
[13:09] <wers> mpt, cool. thanks
[13:09] <mpt> aday, probably the design-n-community and design-in-open-source ones
[13:09] <godbyk> I won't be at UDS (I'm a poor grad student and wasn't sponsored), but hope to attend some of the sessions remotely again.
[13:09] <mpt> aday, the font one is about using different fonts and styles in different places, so it may affect GTK.
[13:09] <aday> mpt: thanks
[13:10] <aday> i'll maybe send a mail round to advertise those
[13:10] <JanCBorchardt> andreasn: ping ;)
[13:11] <aday> so, about the hig - we're trying to get the hig effort back up and running again
[13:11] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: same here ;)
[13:11] <aday> i'm organising a meeting of the interested parties to plan what needs to be done
[13:11] <andreasn> JanCBorchardt, sorry, busy requesting a fdo account :)
[13:12] <aday> so if anybody is interested in that, let me know when you're available
[13:12] <aday> i'm hoping to try and decide on the format and priority content at that meeting
[13:12] <JanCBorchardt> andreasn: Ayatana meeting now, just so you know :)
[13:12] <godbyk> aday: what meeting are you organizing?
[13:12] <wers> godbyk, for the GNOME HIG
[13:12] <aday> godbyk: human interface guidelines 3.0
[13:12] <andreasn> yes, I know, trying to do 10 things at the same time :)
[13:13] <andreasn> sorry for that
[13:13] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I'd love to attend if I can.
[13:13] <aday> sorry, i should have given more background - we're re-writing the HIG :)
[13:13] <godbyk> aday: I've looked at the pattern library that was started.  I like the idea.
[13:13] <andreasn> JanCBorchardt, was it something specific you wanted to ask me?
[13:14] <JanCBorchardt> andreasn: no
[13:14] <aday> godbyk: cool. comments and feedback are welcome
[13:14] <andreasn> anyway, I'm with you in both soul and flesh now :)
[13:15] <aday> we're going to need help with writing and editing, so if anybody wants to have a go at writing a pattern that would be great
[13:16] <wers> and let's figure out how we're going to do it
[13:16] <aday> wers: yes, that's the first step
[13:16] <aday> which we'll hopefully be sorting out soon
[13:17] <aday> i'll be updating the gnome usability list - so watch that space if you're interested
[13:17] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: remote participation for UDS: http://uds.ubuntu.com/participate/remote/
[13:17] <thorwil> what has been the format for the HIG so far? docbook?
[13:18] <godbyk> thanks, JanCBorchardt
[13:18] <aday> thorwil: depends what you mean by format... but yes, i think it's docbook
[13:18] <aday> we still need to decide on format, so any comments there would be good
[13:19] <wers> yepyep
[13:19] <wers> so that's one action item
[13:20] <wers> everyone think of what the format should be
[13:20] <aday> possibilities include: wiki, CMS, mallard...
[13:20] <wers> let's report back next week or maybe on the HIG meeting
[13:20] <aday> wers: good idea
[13:21] <godbyk> btw, did everyone here get their ayatana-ux membership expiration date extended?
[13:21] <mpt> ok
[13:21] <mpt> I extended everyone's this morning
[13:21] <mpt> except people who are leaving anyway
[13:21] <wers> I'm not sure if I got the extension
[13:21] <godbyk> mpt: ah, cool. just checking.
[13:23] <wers> next week, let's have a secretary to write down the minutes then send the minutes to the list and/or post on the wiki
[13:23]  * thorwil is reminded of the supermarket where they would take the meat out of the packaging, turn it around to make it look fresh again, repackage and relable. regarding expiration date
[13:23] <wers> it's time to be efficient
[13:23] <thorwil> if only i had enough time to be efficient :)
[13:23] <wers> I  can be the first secretary. let's take turns
[13:23] <godbyk> wers: that's easy enough.  though lately, nothing much has been happening at many of the meetings. it's easy to read the 3-4 line exchanges in the logs. :)
[13:24] <wers> godbyk, let's fix that by having a clearly defined agenda
[13:24] <godbyk> wers: also a good idea.
[13:25] <wers> and set the agenda ahead of time
[13:25] <wers> let's see now what next week's agenda will be. I found one. it's to report back our thoughts on the HIG
[13:26] <godbyk> is there anything we should do in preparation for UDS?
[13:26] <mpt> Adding ideas to the whiteboards of those blueprints would be useful, I think
[13:27] <godbyk> wers: did you catch mpt's agenda item?
[13:27] <wers> godbyk, nope. what was it?
 Adding ideas to the whiteboards of those blueprints would be useful, I think
[13:28] <wers> ok
[13:28] <mpt> That wasn't an agenda item, I was just answering godbyk's question
[13:28] <wers> ooh. ok
[13:28] <JanCBorchardt> does anyone of you not have access to the ayatana-ux repo on gitorious yet?
[13:28] <mpt> godbyk, did you ever get time to write up a user testing template?
[13:28] <mpt> script template, I mean
[13:28] <godbyk> mpt: A user testing template?
[13:29] <mpt> We talked about doing that a couple of months back.
[13:29] <godbyk> oh boy.
[13:29] <godbyk> I'm going to guess 'no', then. :-)
[13:29] <mpt> ok
[13:29] <mpt> Is it something you'd like to do?
[13:29] <godbyk> Sure.  What kind of user testing?
[13:30] <godbyk> (Most of the scripty stuff I have to deal with is related to bureaucratic IRB things like informed consent.)
[13:30] <mpt> The sort where you ask someone to try doing something in Ubuntu, and sit and watch them without saying anything
[13:30] <mpt> (try doing something specific, I mean)
[13:30] <godbyk> Right.
[13:31] <godbyk> So you want some boilerplate 'we're testing the software, not you..' intro type stuff?
[13:32] <mpt> yes
[13:32] <mpt> exactly
[13:32] <godbyk> Gotcha.  Yeah, I can whip up some of that.
[13:32] <mpt> Thank you.
[13:32] <aday> godbyk: dunno whether this is useful: http://live.gnome.org/Pongo/Tutorial
[13:32] <aday> i wrote it a while ago... it's not particularly complete
[13:33] <mpt> Then maybe next week we can discuss how to get people running tests of their own.
[13:33] <godbyk> aday: cool.
[13:33] <mpt> (Canonical's Charline Poirier is busily running a user test of Unity right now.)
[13:33] <godbyk> mpt: Yeah, it'd be great if we could get people running some of their own tests.
[13:33] <godbyk> For a lot of usability testing, you don't need huge sample sizes, etc.
[13:34] <mpt> ok
[13:34] <mpt> Anything else?
[13:36] <godbyk> nothing's coming to mind.
[13:37] <mpt> ok, thanks everyone
[13:37] <godbyk> thanks, mpt!
[13:38] <aday> see you next week :)
[13:39] <wers> tried to write minutes for today. we can use this as a template https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana-UX/Minutes/20101014
[13:40] <mpt> thorwil, is <http://www.foopics.com/showfull/c7e1ce704b9de523e51ec5d4a3569003> yours, or is it from someone else?
[13:40] <thorwil> mpt: mine
[13:41] <mpt> ok, I'm linking to it from the spec
[13:41] <wers> I know I missed a lot for today's minutes. feel free to edit the page
[13:41] <thorwil> mpt: cool. i will not other bringing it up on the list, then
[13:41] <thorwil> bother, even
[13:42] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: mpt: letting people run their own tests is great. Any way I could help?
[13:42] <godbyk> It'd be useful to get some feedback from developers on the idea.
[13:42] <godbyk> What questions do they have about usability testing that we can answer?
[13:43] <godbyk> What information/resources do they need to be able to run their own tests?
[13:43] <JanCBorchardt> like what questions to they have, what problems do _they_ see for them (like decisions)
[13:43] <mpt> excellent idea
[13:43] <godbyk> In general, how can we help them?
[13:44] <godbyk> Just writing some generic intro text and tossing it out there won't do much.
[13:44] <mpt> The developers would be the users of this process, so research them like any other user research
[13:44] <thorwil> towards a software life-cycle model with integrated globally distributed testing ^^
[13:45] <JanCBorchardt> yep, intro text is not the important thing, besides it is already there
[13:45] <godbyk> You could also explore the general impressions that developers have about usability testing. What do they think of it? Are they interested in learning how to do it?
[13:45] <godbyk> aday's pongo testing wiki page is pretty good, really.
[13:46] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: when you say "what info do they need to be able to run their own tests?" do you mean developers?
[13:46] <godbyk> JanCBorchardt: yes.
[13:46] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk: I would definitely _not_ advise having developers test their own apps
[13:47] <JanCBorchardt> they need to be educated about UX and design stuff, but they should not do the tests
[13:47] <JanCBorchardt> It is crucial for testing that you are not biased.
[13:48] <JanCBorchardt> testing should definitely be organized by us, as I see it.
[13:49] <godbyk> I agree about the bias and -- while it's certainly not optimal -- I think that almost any usability testing is better than none at all.
[13:49] <thorwil> inner circle user/contributors of projects might be in a good position to do testing
[13:49] <thorwil> being not immersed in implementation, but having a good link to developers
[13:50] <thorwil> enough enthusiasm and good knowledge of the project
[13:50] <godbyk> for the most part, you just have to try to keep your mouth shut, not grab the mouse away from the user, and try to avoid strangling them. :)
[13:51] <godbyk> being slightly masochistic helps, too.
[13:51] <thorwil> isn't the really hard part drawing conclusions, getting to solutions, anyway?
[13:53] <godbyk> For really fine-tuned detail stuff, it's more difficult to analyze the results.  But for the big problems.. well, they'll be apparent after you've seen a few people trying to use your software and stumbling in the same places.
[15:35] <JanCBorchardt> godbyk, thorwil: sorry I am answering late – just be sure I read and agree with your replies. :)