[01:44] <charlie-tca> If that link in the emails is real for a new wiki design, it really falls flat on accessibility for the visually impaired. If this an example of Canonical helping us, we better run fast!
[01:45] <nigelb> AlanBell: neat rant
[01:45] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: maybe e-mail back and then start filing bugs?
[01:45] <nigelb> clearly you're fighting with a designer "I don't like fluid layouts" he says
[01:46] <charlie-tca> What about text that is visible. Does he hate that too?
[01:46] <charlie-tca> I could not read more than half a page a day with that layout
[01:46] <charlie-tca> It makes my eyes burn
[01:46] <charlie-tca> and the text does not grow nicely at all. It distorts instead
[01:47] <charlie-tca> Do we really want an accessibility wiki that visually impaired uses will find really hard to read?
[01:48] <Pendulum> nope
[05:01] <nigelb> Pendulum: I wonder if we should mail Jane about it.
[06:55] <AlanBell> Pendulum: filing bugs is the place to start, as per sabdfl's response to your question
[06:58] <AlanBell> I have filed bug 654643
[06:58] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654643
[06:59] <AlanBell> and bug 654625
[06:59] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 654625 in ubuntu-website "Width is not fluid (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654625
[07:00] <AlanBell> maybe if someone could go through https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs and tag things with accessability as appropriate that would be useful
[07:00] <AlanBell> and file any new bugs you think of
[07:04] <AlanBell> then we can write the code and do the merge requests
[07:05] <AlanBell> which will either be accepted, which is great, or not, which means we escallate the issue
[07:09] <AlanBell> hmm, I can't tag things on launchpad at the moment
[07:10] <AlanBell> nigelb: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/654643 trying to add an accessibility tag to this bug
[07:10] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress]
[07:48] <nigelb> AlanBell: I just added the tag
[07:50] <nigelb> AlanBell: I don't have any more rights on that project than you do, so you sohuld be able to do it (is javascript enabled?)
[07:54] <AlanBell> how odd, doesn't work for me in firefox or chromium
[07:55] <AlanBell> on bugs.edge.launchpad.net or bugs.launchpad.net
[07:55] <nigelb> that's strange.
[07:55] <nigelb> are you clickin on the yellow button and waiting?
[07:56] <AlanBell> click yellow button, turns instantly to an input field with light-wiki in it
[07:56] <AlanBell> I add ", Accessibility" to the end of the field
[07:57] <nigelb> AlanBell: then click the tick mark 
[07:57] <AlanBell> click the green tick, both ticks vanish, it stays an input field
[07:57] <AlanBell> doesn't go back to the blue links
[07:57] <nigelb> AlanBell: hrm, strange
[07:57] <nigelb> I tagged it like 4 times 
[07:57] <nigelb> thansk to my very poor spelling
[07:58] <nigelb> as evidenced ^^
[07:58] <nigelb> :p
[07:58] <AlanBell> :)
[07:59] <AlanBell> I can tag other bugs
[07:59] <nigelb> LOL
[08:00] <AlanBell> I just tagged bug 537408
[08:00] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 537408 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu Community Support is patchy and has no recommended guidelines (affects: 1) (heat: 16)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/537408
[08:00] <nigelb> that one's going to be fun
[08:00] <AlanBell> ah, got it working now
[08:01] <nigelb> strangely not, I wonder why it hasn't caught the eye of *cough* tabloids *cough*
[08:01] <AlanBell> tags are space separated not comma separated
[08:01] <nigelb> AlanBell: aha, you didn'te tell me you used comma
[08:01] <AlanBell> 07:53 < AlanBell> I add ", Accessibility" to the end of the field
[08:01] <AlanBell> did too!
[08:02] <nigelb> Right, I should learn to read then.
[08:02] <nigelb> I missed that bit.
[08:06] <AlanBell> doesn't like capitals in tags either
[08:40] <AlanBell> ok, been through all the bugs
[08:40] <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.tag=accessibility
[08:40] <AlanBell> please file new ones
[12:23] <Pendulum> AlanBell: charlie is our official bug person
[12:25] <AlanBell> yup
[12:26] <AlanBell> and Mark Shuttleworth told us to file bugs, so it is only fair that we do so :)
[12:26] <AlanBell> lots of bugs
[12:28] <nigelb> yes, load 'em up
[12:30] <Pendulum> should I file some bugs about the fact that there's no in-built accessibility features on the main site (no way to change contrast, etc.) and no page explaining what their accessibility options for the website are?
[12:31] <Pendulum> AlanBell: has anyone responded to your e-mail?
[12:33] <AlanBell> no
[12:33] <Pendulum> AlanBell: I assume that was to my 2nd question?
[12:34] <AlanBell> of course :)
[12:34] <AlanBell> yes is the answer to your first question
[12:34] <AlanBell> https://lists.canonical.com/archives/ubuntu-website/2010-October/thread.html
[12:35] <AlanBell> it isn't a very active list
[12:35] <Pendulum> the real question is do I file the bug as the website not complying to W3C Accessibility standards, or do I file bugs as multiple issues
[12:35] <AlanBell> do both
[12:36] <AlanBell> one referencing the standard, then file a separate bug for each thing that could be fixed as a unit of work
[12:38] <Pendulum> of course, now this means I really need to read all the details of the standard ;-)
[12:40] <AlanBell> and get Flash to help point out missing bits
[12:41] <Pendulum> without charging me a consultant's fee :P
[12:42] <Pendulum> (since accessible webdesign and evaluations are what she does as her job)
[12:51] <AlanBell> and a career direction that would be interesting for you to explore :)
[12:52] <Pendulum> well, I'd need to learn design first :P
[12:52] <Pendulum> and I'm not sure it actually pays that well. I think she mostly does it because it's flexible (Flash also has EDS)
[13:16] <vish> Pendulum¦ have you seen » http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lqfQi7146U ?
[13:16] <Pendulum> I don't think I'm going to click that link...
[13:16] <vish> hehe ;p
[13:31] <vish> just not to seem out of context :
[13:31] <vish>  * Pendulum is still avoiding the cake song :)
[13:31] <vish> so /me tried to trick her :(
[13:33] <Pendulum> vish: I'm well aware you hang out in -community-team so it was hard to not notice the timing ;)
[13:33] <vish> Pendulum¦ yea, bad move on my part, i should have waited a day :(
[13:42] <AlanBell> nigelb: how do I find out who should review this? https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/dasher/bugfix-lp-579181/+merge/37528
[15:33] <AlanBell> the dasher conversation is going in interesting directions
[15:34] <AlanBell> the dasher setup in launchpad is a bit of a mess, it imports from an obsolete SVN gnome repository, but Ubuntu gets packages from Debian
[15:34] <AlanBell> nobody is looking after the bugs reported, nobody is merging stuff
[15:35] <AlanBell> so we are going to discuss the adopt an upstream stuff with jcastro in -motu shortly
[16:04] <Pendulum> AlanBell: has discoussion started yet?
[16:06] <AlanBell> oh yes
[16:06] <AlanBell> gnome bug 632226
[16:06] <ubot2> Gnome bug 632226 in core "Dasher is hard to use to operate IRC clients such as irssi" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=632226
[16:07] <Pendulum> AlanBell: yeah, I joined channel so I feel like I'm sorta figuring out what's happening
[17:25] <charlie-tca> You will have to let me know what happened. I got too many things going on at once again
[17:28] <AlanBell> the conversation is continuing upstream with the core developers from Cambridge who develop on the gnome code for Dasher
[17:29] <charlie-tca> Then there is hope!
[17:30] <AlanBell> yes, and hope for the wider collection of bugs, not just this one
[17:30] <AlanBell> the developers there actually appear to be fairly active
[17:30] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.tag=accessibility
[17:31] <charlie-tca> Wow
[17:31] <AlanBell> can you have a flick through that lot at some point and file bugs for any other stuff you encounter on the websites
[17:31] <charlie-tca> I will look them over and add any others I fine?
[17:31] <dutchie> that is fairly impressive
[17:31] <charlie-tca> s/fine/find
[17:32] <AlanBell> I went through the existing bugs and tagged stuff with accessibility if it looked like an issue (contrast, size etc)
[17:32] <charlie-tca> Oh, the right answer is yes
[17:33] <AlanBell> nice stuff about website bugs is fixing them is within my capability, I can code it, do merge requests then get cross if they are rejected :)
[17:34] <AlanBell> with applications written in C that are segfaulting I get stuck quickly!
[17:35] <charlie-tca> Great! I'll have a close look today. thank you
[17:35] <charlie-tca> I did hold off cussing them out for the new website design.
[17:35] <charlie-tca> Not sure I can word it effectively yet
[17:36] <Pendulum> maco: you and I really need to start doing that dasher patching we talked about doing at some point ;-)
[17:37] <AlanBell> totally agree, but the bugs need to be filed before we can get cross about them
[17:38] <Pendulum> yeah
[17:39]  * Pendulum goes off to get something that will pull her head off her neck ;-)
[17:39] <Pendulum> catch y'all later!
[18:53] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: if you see any bugs in the list marked new please feel free to confirm them
[18:54] <charlie-tca> I will. I will go through each one to try and confirm as many as possible.
[21:23] <AlanBell> also have a look at http://ubuntu-news.org/
[21:23] <AlanBell> http://www.ubuntu.com/
[21:24] <AlanBell> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/
[21:24] <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/
[21:25] <AlanBell> http://summit.ubuntu.com/ (although I fully expect the schedule to be a disaster, the new ical feeds are a good thing)
[21:30] <Pendulum> yeah
[21:30] <Pendulum> brb. upgrading :)
[21:30] <charlie-tca> At least the text shows up on those. On that new wiki template from yesterday, it didn't
[21:34] <charlie-tca> Is http://www.ubuntu.com/ using iframes? The text in the three boxes across the page does not increase with the rest
[21:34] <charlie-tca> or maybe it just starts really small?
[21:38] <AlanBell> works for me in firefox and chromium
[21:39] <AlanBell> and no, not iframes
[21:46] <charlie-tca> Whatever they used, the text stays small
[21:47] <charlie-tca> The rest work, except the map grows really big and wide. But, overall, the design works okay
[21:47] <charlie-tca> They took the attachments down that were in yesterdays message
[21:48] <AlanBell> oh, yes, there was a mail about that
[21:49] <AlanBell> "Hi, there has been a mis-understanding. I was under the impression that this guideline was finalized but I have just been told it is not ready for you to implement."
[21:49] <AlanBell> bit of an oops there!
[21:50] <charlie-tca> thank goodness. It doesn't really seem usable to me.
[21:50] <charlie-tca> Hoping it was an old draft, and not really the new design
[22:05] <AlanBell> well I am glad I got my rant in at that point, maybe it will come back better