[01:40] <Spikehead777> Howdy.
[01:40] <persia> hey
[01:40] <Spikehead777> I have a question regarding installation of Ubuntu Studio
[01:41] <persia> This would be a good place to ask.
[01:41] <Spikehead777> I have a computer that has Windows Vista installed on it. I also have an external hard drive that I freed up space to install Ubuntu Studio onto.
[01:42] <Spikehead777> Pretty much, I want to install Ubuntu Studio onto the external hard drive without touching Vista. So far I have done two attempts and although my vista partition is untouched, Ubuntu doesn't boot.
[01:45] <Spikehead777> So, the first time, I installed Ubuntu Studio with pretty much the standard settings. Then I changed the setting to install Ubuntu to go to my external hard drive.
[01:46] <persia> Hrm.  Someone might answer, but I'm not sure we're the most expert about dealing with bootloader issues.
[01:46] <Spikehead777> I see.
[01:46] <holstein> Spikehead777: check out
[01:46] <persia> (at least I don't even know what to ask to understand the problem).
[01:46] <holstein> !grub2
[01:46] <holstein> ^ thats what you want to be aware of
[01:47] <persia> You might also want to try asking in #ubuntu.  You'll have to tell them you were using the "alternate" installer.
[01:47] <holstein> the alternate installer doesnt want to ask you where you want grub installed
[01:47] <Spikehead777> Hmm.
[01:47] <holstein> the live CD used to
[01:47] <persia> Should be asking the same set of questions, given the architecture.
[01:47] <persia> Do we have a bug about this?
[01:47] <holstein> hmmm
[01:47] <holstein> i didnt think it was a bug
[01:48] <holstein> its just the way the alternate installer works AFAIK
[01:48] <persia> Course it's a bug.  Anything that doesn't work is a bug.
[01:48] <holstein> hehe
[01:48] <persia> Alternate installer is just a pile of code: can be changed.
[01:48] <holstein> well, i think you can *not* have grub installed
[01:48] <holstein> Spikehead777: if i were you
[01:48] <Spikehead777> It's my first time trying to install any form of linux, so I don't know too much about it.
[01:49] <holstein> i would want grub and ubuntu on the external drive
[01:49] <holstein> then, you can USB boot it
[01:49] <holstein> Spikehead777: can your computer USB boot?
[01:49] <Spikehead777> That's exactly what I want.
[01:49] <holstein> i do this with my EEEpc all the time
[01:49] <Spikehead777> Yes, my computer boots into USB as well.
[01:49] <holstein> i choose whatever USB device i want to boot
[01:50] <holstein> and GRUB is on all of them
[01:50] <Spikehead777> Where I'm standing, is when I boot into my external hard drive, I get a command line with GRUB
[01:50] <holstein> yeah?
[01:50] <holstein> Spikehead777: what does the live CD run like?
[01:51] <Spikehead777> Well, I boot into the DVD that I burned and it gives me the installation screen for Ubuntu Studio and other things like Rescue Mode, Memory Test, CD Integrity Check, etc.
[01:51] <holstein> Spikehead777: the standard ubuntu live CD ?
[01:51] <holstein> what does it run like on your computer?
[01:52] <Spikehead777> Oh, no, I didn't download that.
[01:52] <holstein> could be something to do with your graphics card
[01:52] <Spikehead777> All I got was the Ubunto Studio iso
[01:52] <holstein> i like to see a live CD
[01:52] <holstein> running on the hardware
[01:52] <holstein> look around
[01:52] <holstein> see if everything works
[01:53] <holstein> and if not, how challenging its going to be to make things work
[01:53] <holstein> then i install
[01:53] <Spikehead777> Alright, I'll download the live CD, burn the iso, then test it out.
[01:53] <holstein> Spikehead777: you can install from it too
[01:53] <Spikehead777> Hopefully it's not too big.
[01:53] <holstein> and check out
[01:53] <holstein> !vanilla
[01:54] <holstein> you might have an easier time with that installer
[01:54] <holstein> theres a step at the end
[01:54] <holstein> i think the button at the bottom says 'advanced'
[01:54] <holstein> thats where you choose where GRUB is going to go
[01:55] <holstein> ALSO
[01:55] <holstein> if you think you have ubuntu installed on that USB drive
[01:55] <holstein> you could try something like http://gag.sourceforge.net/
[01:55] <holstein> you dont have to install it to find and boot things
[01:57] <Spikehead777> Well, the installer completed successfully, it's GRUB that seems to be giving me issues. I'll give those a try though.
[01:57] <holstein> Spikehead777: good luck :)
[01:57] <holstein> totally do-able what your going for though
[01:58] <persia> holstein, Thanks for the detailed explanantion and hints, and apologies for my thought that maybe you wouldn't have that answer too :)
[01:58] <Spikehead777> Oof, Ubuntu live CD is 693 MB. x_x I'll be downloading that over the next week. DX
[01:58] <persia> Spikehead777, If you already have an install, and that seems like a big download, maybe better to just try the bootloader tricks first.
[01:59] <Spikehead777> Yeah, that's probably what I'm going to do.
[02:01] <holstein> persia: :)
[02:01] <holstein> that was always another arugument in favour of a vanilla upgrade install for me
[02:02] <holstein> on some boxes, where i just didnt want to bother with grub issues after the install
[02:02] <holstein> didnt even cross my mind to file a bug though
[02:02] <persia> The main issue with the vanilla-based install is that one ends up with packages intentionally not shipped with Studio that may impact performance.
[02:02]  * holstein is google-ing to see if there is a bug already filed
[02:02] <persia> Mind you, if you don't mind the impact, they may also improve the user experience :)
[02:03] <holstein> yeah, and i pretty much know what to get and remove
[02:05] <Spikehead777> Hmm... from the Ubuntu Studio installer, is there a difference between the LILO and GRUB boot loaders? I see the option to install either of them when I select the "Go Back" option.
[02:05] <persia> Spikehead777, You want grub.
[02:06] <Spikehead777> Okay then.
[02:06] <persia> Lilo is only required for some *very* specialised cases involving sets of oddities and boot experiences that are only meaningful to people who have been using lilo for many years.
[02:07] <Spikehead777> I see.
[02:19] <Spikehead777> Well, I'll probably try again tomorrow, it'd be nice to use my computer for a little while more tonight. =)
[04:19] <nitemovz> Hi all! I am brand new to UbuntuStudio
[04:19] <nitemovz> Can anyone help me with a crash course
[04:22] <persia> What are you trying to do?
[04:23] <nitemovz> I am trying to setup a music production studio. What kind of hardware can I use with this?
[04:24] <nevyn> nitemovz: what hardware do you have?
[04:25] <nitemovz> I don't have any hardware as of yet, I want to know what is out there that is compatible with this, I want to buy new equipment for my home studio
[04:25] <nevyn> lots of things will "just work"
[04:25] <nevyn> usb midi controllers...
[04:25] <persia> OK.  What do you intend to do in your home studio?  Live recording?  Session recording?  Production?  Processing?
[04:26] <nevyn> ooh.. good question
[04:26] <nitemovz> I want to produce sessions, as well as perform audio recordings for movies
[04:27] <nevyn> what sort of instrumments do you play?
[04:27] <nitemovz> I personally only play the sax, but I know people who play everything from drums to guitar, to brass and orchestral instruments
[04:28] <persia> Sounds like you'll be doing a fair bit of mic'd recording then.
[04:29] <nitemovz> Yes, that is my plan, hopefully.
[04:29] <persia> Do you plan to have a bigboard mixer, or do everything in the box?
[04:29] <nitemovz> I have not figured that choice out yet,
[04:29] <nevyn> do you want to be able to record instrummnetal ensembles?
[04:29] <nevyn> like sax+2guitars+vocals+drums ?
[04:29] <nitemovz> Yes.
[04:29] <nevyn> or sax+drums+vocals
[04:30] <nitemovz> Maybe about 10 pieces at the most including some vocals.
[04:30] <nevyn> or do you just want to do sax then overlay drums then overlay vocals?
[04:30] <nevyn> well you'd start with drums but bleh
[04:31] <persia> OK, so Ubuntu Studio is a reasonably good choice for in-the-box stuff.  It's not (yet) the best, but it's definitely the least expensive, and it's quite usable for most things.
[04:32] <persia> But you'll want to spend a lot more time thinking about what belongs in the box and what belongs as separate components.
[04:32] <persia> And make sure you budget for a good selection of mics, preamps, and compressors.
[04:32] <nevyn> drums can eat a lot of channels without much effort.
[04:32] <persia> Less than 7 usually makes a set sound flat.
[04:33] <persia> Once you have a studio design, and you know what belongs in the box, you should have a fairly good idea how many channels you need.
[04:33] <nitemovz> Is the audio mixing program that comes with it, the best? or is there a better one?
[04:34] <persia> At that point it becomes interesting to ask here about selecting an interface.  I think most USB and most FireWire audio interfaces are now supported, but it's best to pick 4-5 that would achieve your goals and meet your budget, and then research which ones have best support.
[04:34] <nitemovz> I would be more inclined to use FireWire as opposed to USB
[04:34] <persia> There's heaps of mixing programs, depending on what you're mixing.  If you're looking at traditional DAW environments, I think Ardour is the best choice, and it's available by default.
[04:35] <persia> nitemovz, I *used* to say that.  But USB is better now.  Some USB 2.0 interfaces have lower latency and higher throughput than any Firewire 100, 200, or 400 interfaces.
[04:35] <nitemovz> Is there going to be a difference between the program I use for music, and the program I use for vocals for movies? Or will they all just work the same?
[04:35] <persia> Nothing USB can compete with Firewire 800 or better, but that ends up requiring fancy firewire interfaces on the computer (most only have FW400)
[04:35] <nitemovz> If that is the case, I will look more into USB
[04:36] <persia> It really depends on the interface.  Ask about throughput rates, etc.
[04:37] <persia> There's lots of programs.  Some folk do everything with Ardour.  Other folk use a wide variety of things.  Depends on how much you want in-the-box and how much out-of-the-box and what sort of effects, etc.
[04:38] <nitemovz> I truly appreciate all the help!
[04:40] <nitemovz> I am still new to the Ubuntu world, as I am used to using programs such as Logic Studio, and Soundtrack Pro on Mac, and Soundbooth on Windows
[04:41] <persia> Some people have compared Ardour to Logic.  Generally Logic wins by a small margin.
[04:41] <nitemovz> I will definitely hope that it is just as good.
[04:41] <persia> That said, Ardour costs a lot less, and is definitely capable of professional-quality results.
[04:42] <nitemovz> That is all that matters to me, is professional-quality
[04:42] <persia> I'd suggest trying Ubuntu Studio on a laptop or spare computer for a bit, with a cheap USB interface.
[04:42]  * nevyn wants mixbus.
[04:43] <persia> You obviously won't get the performance you'd get from a more carefully composed system, but you can investigate the interfaces, etc.
[04:43]  * nevyn has a 8x8 24bit96khz soundcard but the support is evolving.
[04:43] <nevyn> usb2
[04:43] <nitemovz> I will have to try it out, for sure.
[04:43] <nevyn> nitemovz: what's the budget?
[04:43] <nitemovz> Anywhere between $1,000 and $10,000
[04:44] <nevyn> nitemovz: how comefortable are you with linux?
[04:44] <persia> Hitting the lower end of that would be *really* hard, unless you already have mics, preamps, and compressors laying about.  *especially* if you want to be able to do drums as separate channels for in-the-box processing.
[04:44] <nevyn> nitemovz: what do you want to achieve with that?
[04:45] <nevyn> persia: 2k for interfaces with pre's (16 channels) cables, mic's compressors ...
[04:45] <nitemovz> I am extremely comfortable with Linux, and I am planning on performing session recordings of bands for movie scores, as well as voice recordings for voice overs.
[04:45] <nevyn> nitemovz: are you comefortable with building kernels?
[04:45] <persia> nevyn, That's a good deal you found :)  I have to wonder about the mics and pres, but ... :)
[04:46] <nevyn> 2k jsut for interfaces...
[04:46] <persia> We do supply kernels: building kernels is not required.
[04:46] <nitemovz> okay, I am not very fond of building kernels.
[04:46] <nevyn> ok. that's fine.
[04:46] <nevyn> I just wondered.
[04:48] <persia> 2K for an interface with 16 channels and decent preamps?  Yeah, that sounds more reasonable.
[04:48] <nitemovz> I am relatively new to producing bands, pure vocal recordings I am fine with.
[04:48] <nitemovz> Any pointers on recording bands?
[04:48] <persia> Although for that much, I might have selected a separate preamp bank and a cheaper interface, just for reduced cost of later component upgrades.
[04:52] <nitemovz> I am going to start inexpensive, and hopefully upgrade as time goes on. Hopefully I can find some inexpensive equipment that will produce high-end results.
[04:53] <nevyn> persia: I was thinking 2 usb2 8ch interfaces wordclock locked.
[04:53] <nevyn> but then I have a favorite soundcard from a least favorite vendor.
[04:54] <nevyn> persia: so start using the inbuilt pre's and switch the channels to line-in as I get better pre's
[04:54] <persia> nevyn, Needs two ECHI interfaces on the other side.  There's some decent FW800 and PCI digital interfaces with lots more channels for not so much, although those do require external preamps and A/D converters.
[04:54] <nevyn> persia: oh right like the focusrite 24 etc.
[04:54] <persia> Right.
[04:55] <persia> Although doesn't focusrite24 have some A/D built-in?
[04:55] <nevyn> 2 pre's and 6 lineins
[04:55] <nevyn> and adat
[04:55] <nevyn> for 16in 8 out ?
[04:56] <nevyn> the local music store had one for $399 when I bought my 8x8 usb2 card.
[04:56] <nevyn> I decided against firewire because I don't have faith in it being around on laptops etc.
[04:57] <nevyn> and one of my goals was portable/on-site recording
[04:57]  * persia has a FW PCMCIA card to work around that
[04:57] <nitemovz> What would you all reccommend being the minimum RAM requirement for good quality audio production on a laptop while I am starting out?
[04:58] <nevyn> persia: and how long do you think there'll be pcmcia cards on machine (/me assumes actually pccard2 (the pci varient of pcmcia))
[04:59] <persia> nitemovz, Depends on how many channels you want, what effects, etc.  1-2GB is reasonable but more gives you more.  You should be able to do *something* with 512MB, and there are some folks who use as little as 256MB.
[04:59] <persia> nevyn, There's XPressCard FW interfaces too, and laptops with FW.
[04:59] <nevyn> cpu and system throughput are more important than memory imo when tracking
[04:59] <nevyn> particularly throughput many laptops have aweful disk and io systems
[05:00] <nevyn> tho I was heartened to be able to record 4 24/96 channels to SDcard on my eeepc
[05:00] <persia> huh.  Seems there aren't any midrange all-digital interfaces at zzounds today.
[05:01] <nevyn> a 16x16 all digital interface would suit me to a 'T'
[05:01] <persia> Indeed.  Laptops often have much higher RAM requirements than other devices, unless one gets a special laptop (often better choices are those optimised for some types of gaming or those intended to be used to demonstrate server software by travelling salesfolk).
[05:02] <persia> nevyn, If you want portability, do you really want all-digital?  You'd need to carry a separate preamp+A/D box.
[05:02] <nevyn> persia: I've already got.. laptop pre, psu's for the CAD M9 pair cabling etc.
[05:03] <nevyn> I've been thinking a 8u rack might make things easier.
[05:03] <persia> Or a travel box, yeah.
[05:03] <nevyn> psu for sound interface etc...
[05:04] <nevyn> at which point all digital is a total Meh. it can sit in the 8u box with the pc and octopre's
[05:04] <nevyn> use the laptop as a controller for a "real" pc in the rack.
[05:04] <nevyn> but I'm mostly happy with what I have.
[05:04] <nevyn> except my eeepc died.
[05:04] <persia> Not many rack PCs are quiet, unfortunately, and lots don't fit in music racks.
[05:05] <persia> (assuming you7re looking at something like http://gatorcases.com/Default.aspx?Section=Products&Page=Details&CategoryID=4488&CatalogID=9374 )
[05:09]  * Blank__ has a Firepod that he could use with his laptop, except it needs its own power supply
[05:10] <nitemovz> If I cannot get a hold of a USB mixer, how would I take your standard mixer and use that with Ubuntu Studio?
[05:10] <nevyn> Blank__: that's the problem I have now. the Fast track Ultra works on bus power.
[05:11] <persia> nitemovz, So, you probably don't want anything that is sold as a "USB Mixer".
[05:11] <nevyn> but only 2 analog inputs.
[05:11] <Blank__> nevyn, my laptop didn't come with a firewire port, so isn't capable of bus power :(
[05:11] <nevyn> mine is usb.
[05:11] <persia> nitemovz, Most folk do one of two things: A) get a standard mixer, and connect a bus and maybe a couple of send/returns to an audio interface.
[05:11] <Blank__> further to that, the firepod needs too much power
[05:11] <persia> B) connect everything to an audio interface and do the mixing in-the-box
[05:11] <nevyn> Blank__: that's the problem with the ultra as well.
[05:12] <Blank__> i'm the sort of person who wants multitracks at all costs
[05:12]  * nevyn wants in the box.
[05:12] <nitemovz> So, avoid "USB Mixer" completely?
[05:12] <nevyn> I stress less if I have the original capture from the mic..
[05:12] <persia> nitemovz, If you want to use a mixer controller for in-the-box mixing, look for something marketed as a "DAW Controller" or "MIDI Controller" (they are different things, but both can be made to do what you seek)
[05:13] <nevyn> I don't need to get anything other than levels right when tracking.
[05:13] <Blank__> as long as you've got headroom, mixing can be done later (if all you're doing is recording things)
[05:13] <nevyn> Blank__: right. but if you're doing out of the box mixing you've got to get the mixer levels right There and Then.
[05:14] <persia> nitemovz, I may be wrong, or something new may have come out, but last I looked there existed nothing worth having that was sold as a "USB Mixer".  Most of them were just regular mixers with channels 3+4 and one send/return hardwired to an internal USB 4x4 interface.
[05:14] <Blank__> true, nevyn
[05:14] <nitemovz> Okay, so, where would be a good place to purchase a mixer?
[05:14] <persia> nevyn, Depending on your sources when you do OOB mixing, "there and then" might be at home, at your leisure :)
[05:15] <nitemovz> Is MusiciansFriend.com a good place? Or a place like B&H?
[05:15] <nevyn> persia: but there and then when you've got the band sitting there waiting on you to do stuff.
[05:15] <persia> nevyn, Ah, for recording, I don't like using OOB mixers unless I don't have enough channels :)
[05:16] <nitemovz> I am looking to do my in-box mixing. rather than oob.
[05:16] <nevyn> persia: right and given nitemovz's target of recording full ensembles. I think it's safer to do in the box mixing
[05:16] <persia> For mixing and mastering, I like having the extra analog play if using OOB effects (although I only get to do this sort of thing when I visit someone else's studio, as I don't have the hardware)
[05:16] <nevyn> persia: I get that.
[05:16] <nitemovz> Would I be able to use your standard mixer to set my levels, and then do my final mixing in box?
[05:17] <persia> O, aye.
[05:17] <persia> nitemovz, Sure, but depending on your audio interface, you may not need that.  Many audio interfaces have per-channel gain controls to set levels.
[05:18] <nevyn> nitemovz: unless you're confident in nailing the mix on a desk quickly.. I'd suggest against a mixing desk initially
[05:18] <nevyn> tho I do like the look of a dedicated recorder like the zoom16
[05:19] <nevyn> the cute thing is it's a interface and daw controller when hooked to a pc.. and an 8 channel recorder when standalone.
[05:19] <nevyn> so you get to track with a minimum of gear.
[05:19] <nitemovz> Would something like http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tascam-FW1884-FireWire-AudioMIDI-Interface-and-DAW-Control-Surface?sku=240703#used be recommended?
[05:19] <nevyn> yeah same sortof deal as the zoom.
[05:20] <nitemovz> Awesome.
[05:20] <nevyn> I think
[05:20] <nitemovz> The only time I have done any recording is in an actual studio setting where they have had about a million bucks worth of equipment.
[05:20] <persia> Just be aware that the knobs and buttons on that sort of thing don't work on the plugs in the back, but rather send signals to the software which sends signals to the audio interface.
[05:20] <nevyn> dunno about support
[05:21] <nevyn> persia: umm yes they do.
[05:21] <nevyn> persia: these things have two modes.
[05:21] <nevyn> stand alone
[05:21] <nevyn> where it works like a normal desk and records to internal storage
[05:21] <nevyn> and DAW mode where it works as an audio interface and control surface
[05:21] <persia> The 1884 has internal storage?
[05:22] <nitemovz> Okay, I am trying to price out some inexpensive stuff right now.
[05:22] <nevyn> umm no the zoom does.
[05:22] <persia> I'll believe you about the zoom, but I'm 99% sure the FW-1884 doesn't do that.
[05:22] <nevyn> I thought it was like the zoom 16 but it isn't
[05:22] <nitemovz> What would be a good standalone mixer and FW/USB interface to get on an extremely low budget?
[05:22] <nevyn> nitemovz: do you really want a mixer.
[05:22] <persia> Tascam FW-1884 is a lot like the M-Audio ProjectMix
[05:23] <nevyn> yeah it's missing the standalone operation aspect.
[05:23] <nevyn> which is a shame.
[05:23] <nevyn> cause they're less plasticy than the zoom16
[05:24] <nevyn> nitemovz: I'd suggest a suitible interface with as many channels as you can afford. a minimum of 8 analog inputs and preferably 16
[05:25] <persia> Probably not a bad idea to get one with ADAT-in so that you can add another set of analog ins fairly easily later, if you want.
[05:25] <nevyn> I assume at 16 in 8 of those will be Adat
[05:26] <nevyn> but if the goal is recording a band including drums guitars, vocals and sax then 8 channels is going to be tight.
[05:26] <nevyn> and he really needs 16 imho.
[05:26] <nitemovz> Would anyone be able to recommend an inexpensive yet good quality interface?
[05:26] <nevyn> unless he's comefortable mixing the drums outside the box.
[05:27] <nitemovz> I am new to building a studio like this.
[05:27] <nitemovz> Drums will always be mixed oob
[05:27] <nevyn> why?
[05:27] <nitemovz> That is the only way I have ever dealt with drums
[05:29] <nevyn> mixing in the box let's you apply different compression to individual pieces of the kit if you so desire.
[05:29] <nitemovz> I have no experience with in box mixing of drums
[05:30] <nitemovz> You all seem to know more about this than me. Would someone be willing to review a product and tell me if it is a good choice or not?
[05:30] <nitemovz> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/618073-REG/Lexicon_U82S_I_Onix_U82S_USB.html#features
[05:31] <nevyn> so if we assume for a second you're going to mix drums OOTB and send a stereo line of resultant drums for recording... then you need 2x guitar 3x mic etc
[05:31] <nevyn> and you're at 8 inputs already so it's still tight but not impossible.
[05:32] <nevyn> nitemovz: mixing in the box is more flexible and delays concreting decisions. (effectively) this is the benefit
[05:32] <nitemovz> Yes, I will probably record drums in a separate session from the rest of the instruments though.
[05:33] <nevyn> so you would record drums then overlay vocals, guitar etc?
[05:33] <nitemovz> Therefore, that would allow for me to use all the inputs for the drums, and mix in-the-box
[05:33] <nitemovz> Yes.
[05:33] <nevyn> yes
[05:35] <nitemovz> What would I need for a good headphone monitoring system for my musicians as well as for myself?
[05:36] <persia> One note about that interface: the price is nice, but it doesn't have any digital I/O or clock signal, so it's not easily expandable.
[05:36] <nevyn> spdif clocking maybe...
[05:36] <persia> maybe
[05:36] <nevyn> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/557223-REG/M_Audio_9900_52570_00_Fast_Track_Ultra_8R.html this has external clocking via spdif..
[05:36] <nevyn> and has a very similar spec list
[05:37] <nitemovz> Thank you for the recommendation.
[05:37] <persia> But a focusrite 40 sells for a similar price (Yes, Lexicon has better pres).
[05:37] <nevyn> a focusrite 40 is a WAY more supported option right now via linux.
[05:38] <nevyn> I know the fast track ultra works.. but it's not yet what I'd call "solid" like the focusrite stuff
[05:38] <nevyn> and getting some bits working requires patches or newer alsa or other software magics.
[05:40] <nitemovz> I appreciate the help guys.
[05:42] <nevyn> nitemovz: if you have firewire and the budget get something on this list:
[05:42] <nevyn> http://www.ffado.org/?q=devicesupport%2Flist&filter0=&filter1=&op2=OR&filter2[]=perfect&filter2[]=verygood
[05:42] <nitemovz> I placed an order for both of those interfaces. When they arrive I will definitely figure out which is the better of the two, and then use one for mobile with my laptop, and the other for my studio.
[05:42] <persia> which two?
[05:43] <nitemovz> The Lexicon and then the M-Audio
[05:44] <nevyn> wow
[05:44] <persia> Yeah.
[05:45]  * nevyn can't handle the power of that.
[05:45] <nevyn> the m-audio works but like the patch for controlling the mixer was written 3 weeks ago.
[05:45] <persia> Given the shape of them, he'll pick the Lexicon for the laptop, but I'm not sure he understood about planning out a studio, etc.
[05:46]  * nevyn kinda likes the idea of the jamlab stuff for monitor mixes etc.
[05:46] <nevyn> it sucks it can't just dump every input into a multitrack recording tho.
[05:47] <nevyn> it only records stereo aiui which means making the mix decisions there and then.
[05:47] <persia> By "jamlab" you mean M-Audio's 1x1 USB interfaces?
[05:48] <nevyn> no.
[05:48] <nevyn> I ment jamhub
[05:48] <nevyn> but my brain was broken
[05:50] <persia> That's cool.  Way cooler than a mixer in the back with monitor headphones.
[05:50] <nevyn> yes yes it is.
[05:50] <nevyn> and it has little remote units.
[05:51] <nevyn> so you can run a lead to the drummer so they can control their mix from where they are.
[05:53] <Blank__> not all drummers want the hassle of controlling mixes themselves, but if i was drumming i certainly would
[05:53] <Blank__> controlling monitor mixes*
[05:53] <persia> Yeah.  What makes it nicer than the standard monitor distribution systems is the individual mixing.
[05:53] <persia> Blank__, Only have to set it once if you like, but none of that "Hey, turn down your amp!"
[05:54] <Blank__> wouldn't that imply isolation is required to get the monitor mix you want?
[05:54] <nevyn> persia: I think that it's a really cool idea.
[05:54] <nevyn> I just wish you could get the wav for each channel out of it.
[05:54] <persia> Blank__, No, because the monitor mixes only go to headphones, and nobody is driving real speakers.
[05:54] <nevyn> and I can't see that you can.
[05:54] <persia> It simulates isolation (except for acoustic drums)
[05:55] <persia> nevyn, For that you need a hearback, but that gets pricey fast.
[05:55] <nevyn> oh...
[05:55] <nevyn> cause it's mostly analog and there's only a stereo ADC
[05:56]  * nevyn just worked out why there's not independant wav's
[05:56] <persia> It's mostly just a collection of analog mixers, all crosswired.
[05:56] <persia> I suppose you could think of it as 6-bus mixer or something, if you wanted, but it's not as flexible as that.
[05:58] <nevyn> but the win is in the layout and being able to outsource the mix
[05:59] <persia> I think the win is the price.
[06:00] <persia> Aviom or HearBack lets you do the same sort of thing, with better integration to the master buses (either on a mixer board or an audio interface), but at much higher cost.
[06:00] <nevyn> a few people in #lad have been mooting using a control surface application (like fingerplay) and a audio feed to control monitor mixers
[06:01] <nevyn> so you have a normal return monitor feed but do itb mixing controlled by an android phone or tablet.
[06:01] <nevyn> and hand the tablet to the artist.
[06:02] <persia> Makes sense.  I'd probably use something like the Korg NanoKontrol for the mix, rather than a phone, but I like weird USB devices.
[06:02]  * nevyn keeps wanting a nanocontrol
[06:03] <nevyn> persia: phone means you don't have to route usb into the studio.
[06:03] <nevyn> but blah
[06:03] <persia> they don't cost that much, although they also don't do that much :)
[06:03] <persia> ducts, but sure.
[06:03] <nevyn> usb bus length etc etc.
[06:04] <nevyn> software defined interface allows labeling from the control box
[06:04] <nevyn> provide new control via software
[06:04] <nevyn> the vocalist keeps complaining about not enough reverb.. whack the effect in their monitor path slave the control to blah whack it out to their controller.
[06:05] <persia> Hmm...
[06:05]  * nevyn thinks big ;)
[06:05] <persia> And one doens't really care about control latency when it's just montor controls to quiet the talent.
[06:06] <nevyn> yep
[06:07] <nevyn> and vocalists ALWAYS want WAY too much reverb...
[06:07] <nevyn> <-- vocalist ;)
[06:07] <nevyn> its something I have to be extremely concious of when attempting to master stuff
[06:07] <persia> Try doing some choral work: you'll find you don't care as much about reverb then (but otherwise, yeah)
[06:07] <nevyn> I do choral work.
[06:08] <persia> And you still want that much reverb?
[06:08] <nevyn> there's a reason choirs like big halls.
[06:08] <persia> heh
[06:08] <nevyn> and big cathedrals
[06:08] <persia> and dislike flat fields.
[06:08] <nevyn> or outdoor performances
[06:09] <nevyn> (without a sound shell)
[06:10] <nevyn> the problem in choral stuff particularly is if the space is too dead it's harder to tune.
[06:10]  * nevyn is running a work xmas choir and had a first rehersal today.
[06:10] <nevyn> well there's a team of three running it.
[06:11] <nevyn> I'm choral coach/choirmaster there's a librarian (who can typeset sheet music YAY) an accompanist and a general organiser ;)
[06:12] <persia> Sounds like fun.
[06:13] <nevyn> we got through a whole song in the first rehersal. and sang silent night in 3 parts.
[06:13] <nevyn> we need to recruit some Tenors.
[06:14] <nevyn> but for a first rehersal I'm really pleased and encouraged.
 and vocalists ALWAYS want WAY too much reverb..
[07:21] <Blank__> truth
[07:22] <Blank__> i was trying to help a vocalist mix some stuff and she put tons of the stuff on, it was as if the whole performance was in a concrete bathroom
[07:24] <nevyn> there's a reason that vocalists make recordings in toilet blocks at school...
[07:24] <Blank__> they *really* like hearing themselves
[07:25] <nevyn> it helps us tune.
[07:25] <nevyn> singing's a confidence game
[07:25] <Blank__> i was thinking more after the fact
[07:25] <Blank__> but i see what you mean
[07:25] <nevyn> and if you hear yourself and it sounds good you get more confidant and more relaxed ;)
[07:26] <nevyn> and relaxing is KEY to singing well
[07:26] <nevyn> the work choir is rehearsing in a glass box. it's WAY bright. but  at this stage that's kinda helpful (new singers.. not that confident etc.
[07:26] <nevyn> glass box  meeting room made of glass.
[07:27] <Blank__> ah
[07:29] <persia> Oh, that makes sense.  I never heard it explained so cogently before.
[08:13] <nevyn> :)
[10:06] <persia> poine, So, to continue, do you need 6ms?
[10:07] <poine> i used to use 6ms on lucid - do you think it's too low a value ?
[10:10] <persia> I never worry about getting less than 10.
[10:11] <persia> But I'm usually just fiddling around with loops and soundscapes, so don't mind a bit of lag.
[10:11] <persia> I think latency is more important if you're doing realtime recording.
[10:11] <poine> I'm trying at the moment with 11.6ms and still get xruns
[10:15] <persia> OK.  Do you feel laggy in your operation?
[10:17] <poine> what do you mean ? I don't have my instrument here so I can't say for sure if 11.6ms is a problem. but I'm playing with sessions I recorded before and I get xruns with 11.6ms latency
[10:18] <persia> Right.  So, when playing with recorded audio, or impacts, I don't tend to notice latency so much, because there's little physical feedback between action and reaction.
[10:18] <poine> i use my computer as a loop pedal - so alot of interactions
[10:18] <persia> My recommendations would be to first, see what you're running: maybe you can quit a few applications to reduce the number of demands on the processor.
[10:19] <persia> Second, try increasing the latency until you get no xruns: see if you can feel a difference in how it behaves.
[10:19] <poine> except for chrome, nothing else is running
[10:19] <persia> If it feels laggy, your latency is too high.
[10:19] <persia> browsers tend to be resource-hungry, especially if they are open to sites with javascript or flash :)
[10:19] <poine> frames/period and period/buffer - which one should I play with ?
[10:20] <persia> I usually play with period/buffer first, and then frames/period.
[10:25] <armitage_> hi
[10:26] <poine> keep getting xruns :(
[10:26] <armitage> hi
[10:26] <persia> poine, OK.  Maybe you do need a lowlatency kernel :)
[10:26] <persia> I think there's one in abogani's PPA.
[10:27] <poine> i'm getting issues with versions
[10:28] <armitage> someone used ever openoctave?
[10:28] <persia> poine, Right, I'm not sure how to help you with that: to build nvidia modules you need headers that match your kernel.
[10:30] <poine> exactly persia, that was my problem, find a matching lowlatency or realtime kernel and headers
[10:31] <persia> Did you try getting them from abogani's PPA?  There appear to be headers to match each image there.
[10:33] <poine> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/abogani/ppa/ubuntu maverick main deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/abogani/ppa/ubuntu maverick main
[10:33] <poine> this is what I have in my /etc/apt/sources.list.d/abogani-ppa-maverick.list
[10:34] <poine> poine@stripe:~$ apt-cache search lowlatency
[10:34] <poine> linux-image-2.6.35-20-lowlatency-pae
[10:35] <persia> You might want to change that to lucid then.
[10:35] <persia> Or maybe not
[10:35]  * persia looks harder
[10:35] <persia> No, it looks like he's not distributing anything for 35-20 anymore.
[10:37] <persia> Looks like the discussion started https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2010-October/002645.html
[10:37] <persia> Basically, nobody volunteered to help Alessio, so he stopped.
[10:39] <poine> bummer :(
[10:49] <poine> so it looks like it was a bad idea to upgrade to maverick
[10:49] <poine> I had no idea abogani was that much pissed of
[10:51] <persia> He's gotten very little support from anyone over the years, and it's a huge amount of work.
[10:53] <poine> too bad - I should have told him i loved his realtime kernel on lucid - I had no idea this was the work of a single person
[10:54] <persia> Absolutely.  Has been all along.
[10:57] <poine> so.... now I should either downgrade my laptop to lucid or stop trying to use it for music - that sucks
[10:58] <persia> Or install the lucid kernel and use that.
[10:58] <poine> ok - trying that
[10:59] <poine> is canonical not interested in real time kernels ?
[11:01] <persia> Dunno.  Looked like at least one person from Canonical was involved in that discussion.
[11:02] <persia> But Canonical only represents a minority of Ubuntu Development, and they need to make money (they contribute enough to Ubuntu that they deserve more thanks for what they give us than complaint for what they don't)
[11:50] <ert> someone can help me? I have a problem with freemix(live video performance tool), it dont read video files i've tried with different format but nothing ...
[11:51] <ert> I have ubuntu studio 10.04 lucid lynx
[11:53] <ert> it need some program like jack(for audio), ther isn't documentation tutorial or some stuff like that...
[11:53] <ert> ?