[15:29] <medvind> hi. I've noticed there is no realtime kernel in the repositories for Maverick. is this because the realtime capabilities have been integrated into the generic kernel?
[20:01] <ScottL> persia, sorry for the delay, are you available to continue the seeds discussion?
[20:03] <ScottL> also, for those interested, new website mock-ups, including the correct blue for persia and a dark theme for jussi ;)
[20:03] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp#Audio%20Horizons%20v2
[20:04] <ScottL> scroll down a bit for the dark theme
[20:18] <persia> And now I know why I woke up to early today :)
[20:18] <persia> s/to/so/
[20:32] <ScottL> for our discussion? or the website? or something else?
[20:32] <persia> For our discussion, I think.
[20:32] <ScottL> that sounds good to me
[20:52] <ScottL> are you ready to talk about the seeds now?
[20:52] <persia> Sure.
[20:53] <persia> So, I just checked, and http://typewith.me/vUpaZVtuLq is still full of content
[20:53] <ScottL> i'm sorry, were you expecting me to moderate the contents?
[20:54] <persia> No, but etherpad times out after a while sometimes, and needs to be repopulated, if nobody is looking at it.
[20:54] <persia> I believe that document to embed three significant things:
[20:55] <persia> 1) An outline of how seeds, tasks, and metapackages are defined and interrelate
[20:55] <persia> 2) documentation of the structure of the seeds, tasks, and metapackages for maverick
[20:55] <persia> 3) a template to use to define the structure for natty
[20:57] <ScottL> and one thing you took exception to was my assertion that audio-common needed to be a metapackage
[20:57] <ScottL> my concern was a user who used a vanilla ubuntu install might apt-get install ubuntustudio-generation
[20:57] <persia> Sure.
[20:57] <persia> So, look at maverick.  Look at "desktop-common"
[20:58] <persia> Notice that it's not either a task or a metapackage.
[20:58] <persia> Also notice that the contents are part of ubuntustudio-desktop task and metapackage, without being explictly in that seed.
[21:01] <ScottL> sorry, getting kids settled again
[21:03] <persia> no worries
[21:03] <ScottL> okay, i see that desktop-common is not a metapackage or task
[21:03] <ScottL> i see desktop: desktop common in the STRUCTURE file
[21:04] <ScottL> but do i need to worry how a user would get desktop-common if they were were installing ubuntustudio-desktop
[21:05] <persia> s/worry/understand/
[21:05] <ScottL> yes, i would like to understand :)
[21:05] <ScottL> i almost *always* want to understand
[21:06] <persia> So, because STRUCTURE declares that desktop depends on desktop-common, every task or metapackage generated from the desktop seed will include everything from the desktop-common seed.
[21:07] <ScottL> hmmm, is this analogous to Depends: in /debian/control ?
[21:08] <persia> No.
[21:08] <persia> It's more like file inclusion in a number of programming languages.
[21:09] <ScottL> i reread your statement again, it will include everything with it
[21:09] <persia> So that the content of the desktop-common seed is added to the content of the desktop seed for purposes of generating tasks and metapackages.
[21:09] <ScottL> not that it depends on it so it will need to be installed as well
[21:09] <ScottL> it will already be there
[21:09] <ScottL>  
[21:09] <persia> Right.
[21:10] <ScottL> SO, when a vanilla ubuntu user wants to install ubuntustudio-desktop
[21:10] <ScottL> it will also be installing ubuntustudio-desktop-common because -desktop-common will be included in -desktop
[21:11] <persia> Rather, it will also be installing the contents of the ubuntustudio/desktop-common seed, but essentially, yeah.
[21:13] <ScottL> okay, so audio-common does NOT need to be a metapackage or task, right
[21:13] <persia> That's my opinion.
[21:13] <ScottL> it shall be done
[21:14] <ScottL> any other critiques of the plan?
[21:14] <persia> I hadn't prepared a critique: I more imagined we'd go over what was in etherpad, and flesh out the natty bits to match what you seek to accomplish.
[21:15] <persia> I can prepare a critique if you'd prefer.
[21:19] <ScottL> i think i had more or less had things in the link i posted earlier pretty well fleshed out addressing the etherpad contents
[21:19] <ScottL> my only concern at the time was the audio-common issue which we addressed
[21:20] <ScottL> but of course, just because i'm not concerned with it doesn't mean i'm not doing something wrong ;)
[21:21] <persia> OK.  I guess my main concern with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Seeds%20Update is that I wasn't sure there was a clear picture of the end-state.
[21:24] <ScottL> i'm not sure what you mean by "end-state"
[21:25] <persia> What it looks like after all the modifications.
[21:25] <persia> Might just be different ways of thinking about things.  I tend to think about how it is and how it should be, rather than how it is and how it should be changed.
[21:27] <persia> But nothing leaps out at me about your modification procedure, and if you've no other questions about the contents of the etherpad, we might be good.
[21:32] <ScottL> sorry, once again, the kids are acting up
[21:33] <ScottL> this weekend started beautifully and very enjoyably with our picnic by the lake and denigrated shortly after our return :(
[21:33] <ScottL> to summarize the modification or the end-state:
[21:33] <ScottL> 1. the video and graphics remain structurally unchanged, just fewer packages in the seeds
[21:34] <ScottL> 2. audio will be dropped, but a transitional package will be included in the /debain/control file that Depends: ubuntustudio-generation ubuntustudio-recording
[21:34] <ScottL> 3. generation and recording seeds will be new
[21:35] <ScottL> 4. STRUCTURAL file will eliminate audio but add generation: audio-common and recording: audio-common
[21:35] <ScottL> that at least is the thrust as i am able to focus and remember it at this time
[21:36] <persia> That's a clear summary of the modifications, and matches what you've put in the sandbox.
[21:37] <persia> Doesn't really summarise the result, but that's fine: I think we think differently about these sorts of things, and I'm not going to make you think the way I think just because I think that way.
[21:38] <ScottL> oh, i think the end-state is that the user will select between the generation and recording tasks for audio packages during installation
[21:38] <ScottL> each of those will include audio-common
[21:39] <ScottL> video and graphic remain virtually identical for installation purposes
[21:39] <persia> Oh, sure.  It's the entirety of the end state that isn't documented.  Really, don't worry about it.
[21:39] <persia> When you get through the procedure, let me know, and I'll look at the results :)
[21:40] <ScottL> good deal