/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/21/#ubuntu-cloud.txt

erichammondsmoser: I'm here.00:53
smosernever mind. i thought you had opened the 'no ec2-tag command' bug00:54
flaccidhey guys :)00:56
erichammondsmoser: Yeah, I just added a comment to it.01:02
smosererichammond, i do want to get your package requests packaged.01:03
smoseriam is on top of my personal list01:03
erichammondsmoser: Cool.  It seems right up Ubuntu's alley to package useful software :)01:04
erichammondI'd love to have all of Amazon's software available a day or so after they release each new tool set or version.01:04
erichammondThis probably means a PPA since it takes more work to get it into official Ubuntu packages.01:05
smoserwell,k i've kept up ok with api-tools01:05
smoserwe used to maintain that ppa01:05
erichammondI'd be willing to manage the PPA if I had help learning how to maintain it.01:05
smoserbut i tihnk the -backports should be the real place01:05
smoseri could maintain a ppa for staging though i guess and then get into backports when they do01:05
erichammondsmoser: Is it possible to -backports a single package?  I think I did something like this with "pinning" but it's been a long time.01:06
smosererichammond, we can set up a team and share the amazon-tools ppa01:06
smosererichammond, yeah... that part does suck, i agree.01:06
smoserthere are ways to do it, but...01:06
smoseri'm not terribly familiar with it.01:06
smoserbasically "backports is the place for backports"01:06
smoserits the most discoverable for people01:07
smoserthat was the conclusion we came to in a meeting once01:07
erichammondOk, so PPA with fast updates, paced integration into +1 if the timing in the release cycle is right, and -backports for older releases?01:08
smoseryeah.01:08
smoserbackports probably isn't that slow01:08
smoserif we had someone watching01:08
smoserit definitely would be slower than ppa, but if you have someone keeping on top of it, it wouldn't be so bad. its just more work.01:09
smoser(ie, have to file a bug and tap someone on backprots team)01:09
erichammondIn the Ubuntu way, is there ever a place for updating the software in a past release if it's primarily to gain access to new features?01:10
erichammondThis seems slightly contradictory to keeping the release constant and stable, but it sure would be nice for keeping up with Amazon's constant stream of features.01:11
mathiazerichammond: SRU can be used for that01:11
erichammondI'm ok with PPA personally, but it makes discoverability difficult for the masses.01:11
mathiazerichammond: one of the critiria for Stable Release Update is if the services used by the progam change01:12
mathiazerichammond: landscape-client is such an example01:12
mathiazerichammond: new releases with new features of landscape-client are pushed as SRU01:13
mathiazerichammond: in order to gain access to new features available in landscape01:13
erichammondmathiaz: Thanks.  AWS seems to fit in with that criteria.01:13
mathiazerichammond: so landscape-client has an SRU exception with a documented plan for QA01:13
mathiazerichammond: landscape-client was actually the first example for such a situation01:13
mathiazerichammond: and should be looked as a model to handle the same situation01:14
erichammondThe one big risk is that the new version breaks old behavior, but in the case of Amazon's tools, they are *extremely* averse to breaking backwards compatibility, so it should fit in pretty well with Ubuntu.01:15
mathiazerichammond: I agree that AWS commands could probably get an SRU01:15
mathiazerichammond: yeah - that's the main critiria that need to be highlighted01:15
mathiazerichammond: I'd recommend to talk about that at UDS to get the process started01:16
smoseri dont think theres a lot of value in getting into SRU over backports01:16
mathiazerichammond: from a process POV the Technincal Board is the entity to engage with01:16
smoserfor landscape, there is. i don't think for ec2.01:16
mathiazsmoser: is -backports enabled by default?01:16
mathiazsmoser: on the AMI?01:16
smoserno.01:16
mathiazsmoser: so how would you get the new versions of the tools?01:17
smoserbut in most of these tools aren't needed in the ami.01:17
smoserthey're client tools01:17
smoserbut.. anyway, you'd enable backports and get them.01:17
smoserjust as you do other places.01:17
erichammondsmoser: I'm not talking about AMIs. I simply use these tools on Ubuntu.01:17
smoseryou very likely do not need them early in first boot01:17
mathiazsmoser: right - *enabling* backports is already a big step to take01:17
smoserbah.01:17
mathiazsmoser: especially if you're running desktop01:17
erichammondmathiaz: Agreed (big step)01:18
erichammondSo: Amazon release -> PPA as soon as one of the team can get to it -> Ubuntu+1 update -> -backports update -> SRU process01:18
mathiazsmoser: where you'd get a lot of other non-related things01:18
smoserthat part sucks.01:18
mathiazsmoser: yes - I think there will be some discussion about that at UDS as well01:18
mathiazan SRU exception seems feasible to me01:19
smosererichammond, similar thread to the "extremely stable" line: http://developer.amazonwebservices.com/connect/thread.jspa?threadID=53242&tstart=001:19
smoseri was very surprised to see that, if in fact they've just dropped stuff from the MD service.01:19
smosermathiaz, i just dont think the sru is justified01:19
smoserthere is risk for breaking old things01:19
smoserand not much gain, imho01:20
erichammondmathiaz: If it is done, would the SRU be just for LTS releases or all active releases?01:20
mathiazsmoser: :/ - is the source code actually available?01:20
mathiazerichammond: all active releases IMO01:20
mathiazerichammond: there is no real difference in terms of SRU critiria between LTS and normal releases01:20
erichammondsmoser: I think it's a huge gain.  For those of us running released versions of Ubuntu (not +1) it's nice to have access to all live AWS features with our standard installed software available from Ubuntu.01:20
smoserno source (for most things).01:21
smosererichammond, i'm not arguing against the availability01:21
smoseri'm arguing against SRU01:21
mathiazsmoser: hm - that would probably make it harder for getting an SRU exception then01:21
smoserits not justified over backports or ppa01:21
erichammondsmoser: It's a matter of how widely you want the gain to be seen.  Just people who know about how to access PPAs and -backports, or everybody.01:21
smoseryou break things01:22
smoserand that should not be by default01:22
smoserand, seriously, you type it into google at some point01:22
smoser"ubuntu ec2-api-tools"01:22
smoserpoof01:22
erichammondIf the risk is low (and so far it has been) then I'd vote for spreading the goodness.01:22
smoserthe one break i'm aware of is requirement for '--name' in new ec2-register01:22
smoserwhich broke things01:22
smoserand they changed the behavior of the tools to show 'name' rather than manifest path01:23
smoser(this was when they added snapshots)01:23
smosererr... ebs root01:23
erichammondsmoser: Fair 'nuff.  I'm not going to push for SRU as long as I can get PPA :)01:24
smoserlandscape is different. it *has* to be in those images in a lot of cases, because landscape manages them.01:24
erichammondsmoser: The AWS tools have little to do with the AMIs as they aren't installed there and are often not used there.  This is just about making AWS features easy to use from Ubuntu systems.01:26
smoseryeah, understood01:27
smoseri have to run01:27
erichammondSo what are the next steps for setting up the team PPA?01:27
erichammondOr does this still need to be discussed at UDS?01:27
mathiazerichammond: I don't think this needs to be discussed at UDS01:29
mathiazerichammond: it's just a matter of creating a team in LP and that's it01:30
mathiazerichammond: the name of the team may be discussed though01:30
mathiazerichammond: not worth a UDS session IMO01:30
erichammondmathiaz: Well, there is a session where I tacked on the request to have these AWS software tools released in Ubuntu.01:34
erichammondhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-webscale-tech01:34
mathiazerichammond: good - seems like a good plan01:35
mathiazerichammond: but don't wait for the UDS session - setting the team and the PPA may be sorted out sooner and faster with smoser01:35
erichammondmathiaz: cool.01:35
erichammondflaccid: 'lo01:38
flaccidhowdy01:38
flaccidsoon i'll find time to get debian going with pvgrub01:43
smosererichammond, mathiaz you can discuss this , i'm not here.01:43
smoserbut there is the ubuntu-on-ec2 team and ppa01:43
smoserwhere that *used* to be, before others (mathiaz included :) suggested that -backports was the correct place01:43
smoser:)01:43
mathiazsmoser: :)01:44
erichammondsmoser, mathiaz: This isn't really related to "ubuntu-on-ec2" since it doesn't relate to the AMIs.  It's more "Using AWS with Ubuntu".01:44
erichammondPerhaps "aws-tools"01:45
erichammondIt also expands beyond "EC2" into other AWS services.01:45
erichammondWe might even want to include software for working with AWS that is not released by Amazon.  There's a lot of good stuff out there.01:46
erichammondmaking it easy for folks to install those packages.01:46
erichammondIt's not important to me at this point, but perhaps the team/PPA could eventually support tools non-Amazon clouds.01:47
erichammondSo... "cloud-tools"?01:47
erichammondThough this might start to blur into UEC stuff.01:47
erichammondflaccid: The Debian crowd would be thrilled with this.  It is now becoming clear that Debian squeeze runs with recent Ubuntu kernels on EC2, but if I understand correctly, pv would let Debian run with a Debian kernel.01:49
flacciderichammond: yeah i've been running with lucid kernel. actually a lot of distros boot and run fine with the ubuntu kernels. just a matter of finding time to do the debian pvgrub - i just need to add to my build template01:50
flaccidafter that is done, then it will be on to freebsd support with pvgrub01:57
erichammondoooh.01:57
erichammondYou'll be famous :)01:58
erichammondThose guys have been begging for 4 years.01:59
flaccidyeah and i'm one of those guys hehe. its all a matter of finding time; but i got a feeling that bsd may still not run because of EC2's ancient xen. is still used with pvgrub or is it something else?02:00
flaccidi mean 'is xen still used'02:01
erichammondflaccid: smoser or jjohansen might know since Ubuntu 10.10 works with pv (I think).02:12
flaccidokies thanks. the positive thing is that in theory at least would be able to get it up to init02:14
smoserflaccid, xen is still used with pv-grub02:38
smoserpv-grub is mostly just grub (0.97) that runs inside xen, loads the kernel off a filesystem it knows about , and goes.02:39
smoserbut i dont know if it can read a bsd filesystem, you might have to hack around with getting a boot partition02:39
smoserthe big benefit of pv-grub is that you (being someone other than me) can *try* a kernel.02:40
smoserie, you dont hvae to register a aki02:40
smoseri think amazon mentioned bsd explicitly in the pv-grub announcemnt02:42
StAlphonzoLibvirt suddenly refuses to let me add a NIC to a bridge. It's always worked well, but now suddenly, it connects it to a virtual network instead. Is this a known issue?02:46
StAlphonzoany ideas? My VMs are no longer of any use, since they cannot be reached from the internet. It's incredibly frustrating.02:46
flaccidsmoser: thanks for the info. yeah i doubt UFS2 will go in the cloud, but bsd should be able to run on other filesystems. amazon did mention bsd in the announcement, this is typically because they have always turned it back to the community for implementing bsd support, yet in the past it certainly wasn't possible with their ancient version of xen02:47
smoserwell, the version of xen didn't change02:47
smoserso, if you were screwed for that reason before, you are now.02:48
smoserbut we boot paravirt-ops kernels and they work02:48
smoserso, it really is possible.02:48
flaccidyes, which is basically what i suspect. the issue with xen 3.0.3 iirc was actually the boot, so its possible that it may be able to boot. see http://wiki.freebsd.org/FreeBSD/Xen02:48
flaccidjust because older xen is not supported by freebsd, doesn't mean necessarily that it doesn't work02:49
smoserwith pv-grub its so infinitely more doable than before.02:49
smosersince you can actually start an instance, stop it, build a kernel on that voume, start again ...02:49
flaccidi'm looking forward to finding some time to try it all out etc. might have to do it in xmas holidays..02:50
smoserso much faster and saner to debug in that environment than in the one jjohansen and zul got to play in02:50
smoser(publishing aki, startin new instance...)02:50
smoserone thing you should b aware of02:50
smoserthere are two pv-grub kernels02:50
zulsmoser: i have more grey hair now02:50
smoserone loads off of (hd0) (i think we use that one), one loads of (hd0,1)02:51
smoseri forget the details, but the one we don't use is so that you could basically register an instance store image that was a disk-image inside a partition02:51
smoserand then your root would be sda1p102:51
flaccidok. i just hope it plays nice with freebsd bios device names02:52
h1what I was wondering: are you guys patching the OS yourself or is that something the provider does for you?03:45
flacciddepends how you define patching. its generally something up to you03:47
h1flaccid: I mean OS patching.11:27
h1as in kernel and packages update.11:27
=== kim0_ is now known as kim0
=== mathiaz_ is now known as mathiaz
alonswartzsmoser: what would it take to support kernel-upgrades on the Lucid EC2 AMI's (as supported in the Maverick AMI's)?14:49
smosernot a lot.14:50
smoserand i've been wanting to spend some time on it.14:50
alonswartzsmoser: it would be great if we could update the Lucid AMI's then - being LTS and all...14:50
smoserlargely the only thing you really need is grub-legacy-ec2 installed14:50
smoseralonswartz, its not really SRU14:50
smoseris the thing14:50
smoserwe'll have to argue, because it is undeniably "feature" and not bug or security14:51
alonswartzsmoser: not a security bug directly, but definately a security enhancement. Think production server running on EC2, kernel vulnerability disclosed. Sysadmin now needs to migrate his system to a new AMI14:52
smoseryeah..14:53
smoserso, the one thing that *has* to happen is to get /boot/grub/menu.lst written in the image during creation14:53
alonswartzanyone who has ever migrated a production system knows what a PITA it is14:53
smoserthen, the next thing is you have to manage /boot/grub/menu.lst14:53
smosergrub-legacy-ec2 does both of those. but its part of cloud-init in maverick. so need to rip it out, put it into lucid cloud-init.14:54
alonswartzsmoser: if you don't get to it, I'll do it. As we want to support cloud-init in the new TurnKey 11.0 release (based on Lucid)14:55
alonswartzbut, getting it supported in the official Lucid AMI's would be a win for ubuntu14:55
alonswartzbeing LTS14:56
smoseryeah, jib was pushing on that pretty ahrd.14:56
smoserand i mostly agree.14:56
smoseralonswartz, i put your thiknpad in my bag last night.14:56
smoserall ready to go14:56
alonswartzsmoser: awesome, don't forget the SSD :)14:56
smoserdarn14:56
smoseri was hoping you'd forgotten14:57
smoser:)14:57
smoserits in there too.14:57
alonswartzfor the price I paid, and how much I want it, there is no way I'd forget it14:57
smoserwhat did that thing cost ?14:57
alonswartz$35914:57
smoserwow14:57
alonswartzcheapest I could find14:57
alonswartzusually goes for $450+14:57
alonswartzLenovo sell it for $50014:58
smoseri could sell you some mob style "insurance" on it, to make sure it got there.14:58
smoser:)14:58
alonswartzwait, you putting it in your carry-on luggage, right?14:58
alonswartzsmoser: did the laptop/ssd come with receipts? please bring them as well.15:02
smoseryeah. i've got everything they sent.15:03
smoserthe ssd didn't have any receipt that i know of.15:03
smoserits retail packaged though, sealed.15:03
smoserits in carry-on15:03
alonswartzexcellent! just let me know your favourite brand of beer15:05
alonswartzsmoser: btw, when do you arrive. you aren't listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-N/Attendees15:05
smoseri'm visiting some family in florida , so i'm driving in on sunday night. i have to return the car to the airport and then taxy over, but have to be at hotel ~ 5:00 or so15:07
alonswartzcool - so i'll see you then. My plane arrives in the morning15:08
alonswartzregarding the kernel-upgrade. Do we have an action item? I've added a note to the IdeaPool15:08
alonswartzsmoser: one other thing, when you have a couple of minutes, could you take a look at Pymin. Maybe we can discuss it further at UDS. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Pymin15:10
smoserok, so when i scanned it before, the gist is a webmin like thing ?15:11
alonswartznope, far from it15:12
alonswartzthe better backend for editing files is something like augeas15:13
alonswartzthe idea is to have a layer implementation, not necessarily a web interface on the actual server, but it's possible15:13
smoseryeah.15:13
alonswartzyou could then manage it from a central server, similar to landscape15:14
alonswartzbut could also be used for local configurations15:14
alonswartzintegrating it with puppet would be great as well15:14
alonswartzmathiaz: did you get a chance to look over Pymin. I'd love your feedback considering your knowledge/experience with puppet.15:19
mathiazalonswartz: I looked at it - it seems to be very high level for now15:26
mathiazalonswartz: having user stories defined, outlining how it would work in the end would be helpful15:27
alonswartzmathiaz: You're correct. Its currently a dump of my notes, needs to be translated into spec form15:28
alonswartzmathiaz: if you think it would be beneficial, I'll try get it done before next week15:28
mathiazalonswartz: it's better for a discussion if you plan to have a uds session about it15:28
mathiazalonswartz: all previous attempts suffered from a lack of clear scoping15:29
mathiazalonswartz: specific, targeted goal15:29
alonswartzmathiaz: OK, i'll see what I can do. Is there a deadline to propose a session (ie. register a blueprint) ?15:30
mathiazalonswartz: the earlier the better15:30
mathiazalonswartz: if you already you wanna have a discussion file it now15:30
mathiazalonswartz: and ping ttx in #ubuntu-server for scheduling15:30
alonswartzmathiaz: thanks - I'll try get it all done asap15:31
erichammondhttp://aws.amazon.com/free/22:21
erichammondSince you must use EBS volumes on t1.micro and they only give you 10GB EBS for free, running an official Ubuntu AMI on this "free" plan will cost at least $0.50/month :-)22:23
erichammondStill a pretty cool idea to get folks to dip their toes in the water.22:23
erichammondHope they don't get scared by how weak a t1.micro is.22:23
flaccidyeah people need to certainly understand the purpose/role of a micro23:38

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