[00:49] <elky> just dropped a heap of more-than-weeks-old dynamic ones. there will be more, but I'm at work.
[00:57] <IdleOne> removed some old bans also.
[01:18] <elky> There's lots from like May in there, and I don't know how long since the floodbot lists were scoured, but anything that doesn't have a stupid hostmask that the floodbots have booted before october can really go too
[01:23] <h00k> @login
[01:23] <h00k> @btlogin
[01:29] <h00k> Pici: are you around?
[01:29] <h00k> I want to remove some bans, I want to make sure I run this unban.sh properly ;)
[01:31] <h00k> yeah, I didn't.
[01:32] <h00k> anyone else use unban.sh?
[01:32] <h00k> I did it once.
[01:34] <IdleOne> never even heard of it
[01:35] <h00k> for irssi, unbanning a list of people
[03:23] <nhandler> h00k: Just do /bans to see a list of bans. Then '/unban 22 57 45' to remove bans 22, 57 and 45
[03:26] <h00k> nhandler: Pici has a nice shell script that works really easily, I tracked down my bans on the backtracker, I have them separated by line in a file, and unban.sh does it's magics
[03:27] <nhandler> h00k: So you have a list of the ban strings?
[03:28] <h00k> nhandler: http://paste.ubuntu.com/517167/
[03:28] <h00k> nhandler: yep
[03:28] <nhandler> h00k: If you have the ban strings, you can pass them to unban '/unban foo!*@* bar!*@* test!*@* *!*@gate/web/*'
[03:29] <h00k> that would work
[03:31] <nhandler> And that script has a lot of extra unnecessary code. If you try and adjust too many modes in one command, irssi will take care of splitting it up properly
[03:31] <h00k> yeah, that works. One day I'd like to remember how to use the unban.sh, but it's taken care of.
[03:31] <h00k> Thanks :)
[03:31]  * nhandler is also wondering why the irssi script is in bash and not perl
[03:32] <IdleOne> that same script could be used for xchat I assume?
[03:32] <nhandler> IdleOne: Probably. It just looks like it echos the commands to run, it doesn't actually run it (although I'm sure there is a way to have the clients execute STDOUT)
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> nhandler: Because some people like the non-melted parts of their brains
[03:33]  * nhandler slaps tonyyarusso around a bit
[03:33] <IdleOne> nhandler: could you write something for xchat that does the same as /bans in irssi?
[03:33]  * IdleOne hands nhandler a Narwhal to slap tonyyarusso with
[03:34] <tonyyarusso> Tusk fight!
[03:34] <nhandler> IdleOne: /bans doesn't do much, /unban is what you probably want
[03:34] <nhandler> You can get a list of bans fairly easily with /mode #channel +b
[03:35] <IdleOne> yeah I was hoping for something that can read the ban list, return only the bans set by me and then let me /unban #,#,#
[03:35] <tonyyarusso> IdleOne: That would be useless because Freenode splits so much, so everythings just set by some server.
[03:37] <IdleOne> or maybe a script that remembers locally the bans I set. I hate having to scroll the ban list lol
[03:37]  * IdleOne is looking for the easiest/laziest way out as possible
[03:39] <IdleOne> I think I just need to learn me perl
[03:41] <jrib> have your script fetch your bans from the ban tracker
[03:41] <IdleOne> jrib: I know no perl :(
[03:42]  * IdleOne needs to learn to script before scripting
[03:42] <jrib> IdleOne: if you know some sort of scripting it shouldn't be hard to learn enough perl to do it
[03:43] <IdleOne> you're gonna make me say it, aren't you?! OK I don't know any programming language
[03:43] <elky> ♪♫...narwhals narwhals swimming in the ocean, causing a commotion, 'cuz they are so awesome...♫♪
[03:43] <tonyyarusso> Just write it in a sane language like python, take all of the keywords out and replace them with curly braces, and put "my" and the beginning of every other line.  Voila, perl!
[03:43] <IdleOne> you made it so simple
[03:43] <IdleOne> thanks :)
[03:44] <jrib> ah well, a programming language is easy to learn if you have a project you are interested in imo.  Just start and don't be afraid of having ugly/bad code.  It's more important to just play and then improve it imo
[03:45] <jrib> irssi-python probably still works
[03:45] <jrib> or you could move on to weechat :)
[03:45] <jrib> then you could write it in C, perl, python, ruby, or tcl
[03:46] <IdleOne> xchat supports tcl also
[03:46] <IdleOne> I think
[03:47] <jrib> oh I assumed you used irssi because you wanted to learn perl :P
[03:47] <IdleOne> ok, what do you experts suggest for a first time language?
[03:47] <jrib> python
[03:47] <nhandler> jrib: You are 100% that the best way to learn is to have a project. I learned Perl probably 7 years ago when I made a chat bot for AOL Instant Messenger
[03:48] <IdleOne> I just shed a tear
[03:48] <IdleOne> nhandler: say it ain't so :(
[03:49] <nhandler> Sadly, it is. It was actually a very good learning project, as I got to learn about all the important features of Perl
[03:50] <IdleOne> Well I guess, my wanting/need of certain features is a good reason to learn
[03:52] <IdleOne> less features and more specific functionality catered to my want
[03:52] <IdleOne> s*
[07:56] <ikonia> looks like spaceghost found #debian-offtopic as his new #ubuntu-offtopic
[07:57] <Madpilot> lucky them
[07:57] <Madpilot> spaceghost... hasn't he been a years-long troll? the name rings bells far back in my skull
[07:59] <elky> ikonia, they can keep him
[07:59] <elky> they will, however, not give him the grace we did.
[08:08] <ikonia> they have a lot loser set of guidelines so it may work out for him
[08:09] <elky> not necessarily. "Being obnoxious" will fall foul really quickly.
[08:24] <ikonia> we'll see
[09:08] <rww> hola. see peyman in #ubuntu.
[09:11] <rww> alrighty, I guess I'll ping you all instead.
[09:12] <rww> jpds: thanks
[09:12] <jpds> Well, if hell is true, so is heaven.
[11:25] <elky> jpds, no, heaven is caek.
[11:35] <ikonia> I could use cake right now
[11:36] <jpds> ikonia: Indeed.
[11:45] <elky> griefcake!
[11:53] <jrib> cake isn't all that great
[11:53] <jrib> chocolate mousse is where it's at
[11:53] <elky> Tiramisu
[11:54]  * popey might have to make some cake in a cup 
[12:07] <jussi> yeah, but the cake is a lie!
[12:46] <Pici> ikonia: puppet is lots to configure and landscape is commercial.
[12:46] <Pici> ikonia: unless I'm less familiar with puppet than I thought.
[12:47] <ikonia> Pici: puppet does have setup work involved sure, but setup work against non-functionaing product, there must be a tradeoff
[12:47] <ikonia> and I thought landscape had a free cut down version
[12:47] <Pici> h00k: still need me?
[12:48] <Pici> h00k: oh, read the sb.  Its ./unban.sh filethathasthehostmasks
[12:56]  * nhandler still finds /unban easier
[12:57] <Pici> I was using this originally for mass un-exempting.  I'd pull the +e list down, play around with grep and cut, and then have a nice set of mode commands that I could just paste back in irssi.
[12:58] <nhandler> Pici: Ah. Normally, I just go through the list and as I see hosts that need to be -e'ed, I add them to my /modeset command
[13:34] <gnomefreak> why didnt the floodbat tell us about the flood of users /quiting
[13:34] <gnomefreak> welcome bazhang :)
[13:38] <bazhang> ubuntu_ (~ubuntu@90.150.65.204)  looks like idoru took someone out who was flooding but not spamming (just in Russian is all) in #ubuntu
[13:44] <gnomefreak> what happened to me
[13:44] <jpds> gnomefreak: Very philosophical question.
[13:45] <gnomefreak> ok that was very odd
[13:45] <gnomefreak> i didnt lose a connection
[13:45] <jussi> [15:43:17] <-- gnomefreak76 (~gnomefrea@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak) has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[13:45] <gnomefreak> trust me apt would have hit me over the head if idid
[13:46] <gnomefreak> jussi: that would mean i changed my nick? since i only have been logged in under this name
[13:46] <jussi> gnomefreak: no idea, thats all I see here...
[13:47] <gnomefreak> could it be someone tried using that name and it auto gave me it?
[13:48] <gnomefreak> that was odd
[13:50] <elky> I dunno, I've had apt hang on during connection burps before
[13:52] <gnomefreak> 1 good think about natty is gcc4.5 is breaking xulrunner :)
[13:53] <gnomefreak> s/think/thing
[14:04] <gnomefreak> i think that was when i hit the wrong icon
[15:58] <Pici> maco: We really shouldn't be encouraging conversations about spam in #ubuntu, Its usually best to tell them that its already been handled.
[15:59] <maco> k taking it to pm
[15:59] <Pici> :)
[16:00] <IdleOne> Morning
[16:00] <Pici> ugh
[16:00] <Pici> IdleOne: hi
[16:01] <jpds> Hmm.
[16:09] <IdleOne> his client sucks at identifying and the channel is at fault
[16:09] <IdleOne> heh
[16:10] <Pici> Is 'kubuntu plasma netbook system' in Software Center kubuntu-desktop?
[16:10] <jussi> I dont think so
[16:11] <Pici> Someone else suggested that. :/
[16:11] <IdleOne> kubuntu-desktop is kubuntu-desktop
[16:12] <Pici> Whats this other thing then?
[16:12] <IdleOne> probably a mish mash of package names and confusion
[16:12] <IdleOne> maco: ^^
[16:13] <maco> kde-plasma-netbook is the plasma netbook package
[16:13] <Pici> Oh.  kubuntu-netbook - Kubuntu Plasma Netbook system
[16:13] <maco> though theres also kubuntu-netbook wihch should be transitional...
[16:13] <maco> and plasma-netbook
[16:13]  * Pici shrugs
[16:15] <Pici> I don't remember typing that.
[16:16] <jacekowski> i want to dispute recent actions of #ubuntu-uk op popey
[16:16] <jacekowski> he banned me for saying that i don't like him
[16:17] <IdleOne> jacekowski: You will have to take that up in #ubuntu-irc
[16:17] <jussi> right. popey, care to comment?
[16:17] <IdleOne> or here
[16:17] <jussi> IdleOne: lets do it here for now
[16:17] <IdleOne> okie
[16:17] <popey> I have warned jacekowski on numerous occasions about his attitude to supporting people in -uk
[16:17] <jussi> jacekowski: in future though, #ubuntu-irc is the places
[16:17] <jacekowski> jussi: ok
[16:18] <jussi> can someone point me to logs?
[16:18] <popey> he's been removed from the channel before now after being inappropriate and being deliberately unhelpful
[16:18] <jacekowski> popey: i copied and pasted ready answer
[16:18] <popey> http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2010/10/21/%23ubuntu-uk.html
[16:18] <popey> you just told them to google
[16:19] <jacekowski> with ready search query
[16:19] <popey> and gave a phrase which results (for me at least) in an answer only appropriate for a release of Ubuntu 5 years ago
[16:19] <jacekowski> and later before you kicked me i copied and pasted ready answer
 ubuntu change splash -> google.com -> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1307450
[16:20] <popey> As I said, I've mentiond to you in the past that your attitude is often deliberately unhelpful
[16:20] <popey> 16:11:37 < jacekowski> i refuse to give him ready answer
[16:20] <popey> thats not the way we like to help people who come in asking for help
[16:20] <jacekowski> but i gave him search terms for google
[16:21] <jacekowski> little bit of initiative from his side should be expected
[16:21] <popey> which fail, as I pointed out, the search term you used resulted in a duff result.
[16:21] <jussi> hrm
[16:21] <popey> this is not the first time I've spoken to you about this kind of support
[16:22] <jacekowski> hmm, i just tried google.co.uk and result i pasted is still at 1st page
[16:22] <jussi> jacekowski: we have a guideline "when helping, be helpful". - have you read the guidelines yet?
[16:22] <jacekowski> jussi: yes
[16:23] <jussi> jacekowski: part of that is when giving support, you need to know that the support you give is helpful, or give a caveat that you found it in $place, and it may be incorrect.
[16:24] <jussi> jacekowski: it seems you have a history of not checking, which is a valid reason to ban.
[16:24] <jacekowski> jussi: i looked at it and it was correct on my google
[16:24] <jussi> jacekowski: correct on google, != correct.
[16:24] <jacekowski> jussi: it's always popey that has a problem, and it happened very often that many hours later i got a warning from him on query
[16:24] <jacekowski> for something i said hours before
[16:24] <jacekowski> like he's just picking on me
[16:25] <popey> I am not awake 24x7
[16:25] <popey> contrary to popular opinion
[16:25] <jacekowski> and reading all i said in past 24h
[16:25] <jussi> jacekowski: popeycannot be present every minute, and I applaud him for reading back and letting you know you were incorrect
[16:25] <popey> brb bio break
[16:25] <jacekowski> well, i don't belive he's reading hours worth of backlog
[16:25] <jussi> jacekowski: ops are taught to read back and check on how things are going
[16:25] <jussi> I do it, as do many others.
[16:25] <IdleOne> Also there is no time limit on breaking channel policy, it does not expire.
[16:26] <jacekowski> thing is that he's only op that told me anything
[16:26] <jacekowski> even that other ops were present at the time
[16:26] <IdleOne> well, that is something that popey might chose to discuss with the other channel ops.
[16:26]  * Daviey pipes in.... jacekowski, i have seen you be less than helpful in the past.  I haven't read the logs for this occasion 
[16:27] <jussi> jacekowski: perhaps he is the only op with the rquired knowledge. however, the point is moot, as if you are consistently giving out poor advice, that needs to be sorted
[16:27] <Daviey> but it's not the first time you have been banned for similar
[16:27] <jacekowski> Daviey: only by popey
[16:27] <Daviey> jacekowski: popey often notices this before the rest of the ops, because he is the most active op in -uk.
[16:27] <Daviey> infact, most active person i believe.
[16:28] <jussi> jacekowski: the point remains, if you are giving out poor advice, this needs to be sorted.
[16:28] <popey> 16:25:36 < jacekowski> well, i don't belive he's reading hours worth of backlog
[16:28] <popey> for the record, I do
[16:28] <maco> so do i
[16:29] <jussi> Lets try keep this to the relevant people please.
[16:30] <popey> on the recent occasion when I warned you some hours after the last incident, I got absolutely no response whatsoever.
[16:30] <jussi> jacekowski: so in this case, the ban seems entirely correct. However, If you can show that you are willing to reconsider how you give advice, I am sure that popey and the other UK ops would reconsider your ban.
[16:30] <popey> on the time before that I asked if you'd change your attitude, and you were pretty evasive about doing anything to change you behaviour
[16:34] <jussi> jacekowski: So if you will, please take it up again with Daviey and popey and the other UK ops (in #ubuntu-irc) and if you still feel that the decision is wrong, take a look at !appeals
[16:35] <jussi> jacekowski: is there anything else you need from us?
[16:36] <jacekowski> not at the moment
[16:37] <jacekowski> thanks for a time
[16:41] <jussi> Hopefully that came across as fair and considered.
[16:42] <IdleOne> I think he may have left feeling the decision is still wrong.
[16:42] <IdleOne> doesn't mean it was
[16:43] <popey> thing is he does help some people who as deep technical questions about subjects he's interested in
[16:44] <popey> but in the next breath calls someone who replies to ubuntu bug reports with boilerplate text a "cunt"
[16:44] <Pici> jpds: you around?
[16:44] <jpds> Pici: Hey.
[16:45] <Pici> jpds: quidnunc in #ubuntu is asking about archive mirror rsync frequencies.  I suggested the +archivemirrors page, but hes looking for something more specific, is that information shared?
[16:45] <jpds> Pici: Completely depends on the mirror adm's decision.
[16:47] <jpds> Pici: Sorted.
[16:47] <Pici> jpds: Thanks!
[16:57] <IdleOne> I wonder what bit perlsyntax
[16:58] <Pici> He has a history of doing things like that.
[16:58] <IdleOne> oh I see
[16:58] <IdleOne> he didn't like the answer/help being given
[17:00] <jpds> IdleOne: Didn't we already ban that guy?
[17:01] <IdleOne> I +q earlier and talked a little with him
[17:01] <IdleOne> seems he forgot the message
[17:01] <IdleOne> now he is banned
[17:01] <Pici> Good.
[17:02] <IdleOne> I told him that sort of talk was unacceptable and he said he understood.
[17:02] <IdleOne> guess he didn't
[17:02] <jpds> Some people.
[17:03]  * topyli rolls eyes
[17:06] <IdleOne> 9.04 is EOL?
[17:06] <IdleOne> !9.04
[17:06] <IdleOne> need to update the factoid
[17:07] <Pici> On the 23rd iirc.
[17:07] <tsimpson_> 18 months is the non-LTS support period iirc
[17:08] <jussi> Jaunty eol... lovely
[17:08] <IdleOne> ubottu: 9.04 is Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty Jackalope) was the tenth release of Ubuntu. End Of Life: October 23, 2010. See !eol and !upgrade for more details.
[17:09] <IdleOne> see this is why I run +1 all the time. no worrying about eol
[17:09] <IdleOne> :)
[17:09] <Pici> !no jaunty is <reply> Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty Jackalope) was the tenth release of Ubuntu. End Of Life: October 23, 2010. See !eol and !upgrade for more details.
[17:10] <Pici> ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2010-September/000137.html )
[17:10] <popey> IdleOne: you on natty now!?
[17:10] <IdleOne> yup
[17:10] <IdleOne> since the 14th
[17:10] <popey> crikey, I am never that brave/foolhardy
[17:10] <popey> :)
[17:10] <IdleOne> night before the email went out :P
[17:11] <IdleOne> did the same with maverick
[17:13] <popey> Octohedra in #u ?
[17:13] <popey> gone
[17:21] <IdleOne> !guidelines > Octohedra
[17:21] <Pici> good catch
[17:22] <IdleOne> thank you. I noticed that keeping my eyes open is a lot more effective
[17:28] <MichealH> Hi I have noticed that in #x the topic is: The topic for #xubuntu is: topic
[17:28] <MichealH> Is it intentional?
[17:28] <charlie-tca> #x
[17:29] <MichealH> #xubuntu
[17:29] <ikonia> it's not :topic
[17:29] <charlie-tca> something is wrong with your client, then. the topic is bigger than that
[17:29] <ikonia> its was set on the 11th october and is a complete topic
[17:29] <MichealH> I know that was a example
[17:29] <ikonia> what was an example
[17:29] <MichealH> the topic
[17:30] <MichealH> It really shows up al
[17:30] <ikonia> MichealH: what is the problem you are reporting ?
[17:30] <MichealH> One sec
[17:30] <charlie-tca> I show it to be 4 lines in Xchat
[17:30] <ikonia> #join #xubuntu
[17:30] <ikonia> oops
[17:30] <MichealH> 16:30 -!- Topic for #xubuntu: Topic for #xubuntu is: Official Xubuntu Support Channel | Xubuntu 10.10 is out! http://xubuntu.org/news/10.10-release Download, Share it, Seed it!
[17:30] <MichealH>           Please read the release notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/MaverickMeerkat/Final | Pastes to http://paste.ubuntu.com | Offtopic: #xubuntu-offtopic | Regular
[17:30] <MichealH>           helpers: #ubuntu-irc-helpers
[17:30] <MichealH> That the issue
[17:30] <ikonia> MichealH: then there is a problem with your client
[17:30] <ikonia> MichealH: stretch the window
[17:31] <MichealH> I used /topic?
[17:31] <MichealH> Its irssi also.
[17:31] <ikonia> so?
[17:31] <ikonia> it's not
[17:31] <ikonia> MichealH: what client are you using
[17:31] <ikonia> I'm using irssi
[17:31] <ikonia> and it formats fine
[17:31] <popey> looks fine in irssi here
[17:31] <ikonia> MichealH: try expanding the size of your windows
[17:31] <ikonia> MichealH: make them a little bigger to allow you to display formatting better
[17:31] <charlie-tca> looks right in xchat, too
[17:32] <knome> fixed.
[17:32] <MichealH> See how it says "Topic for #xubuntu: Topic for #xubuntu is:"
[17:32] <knome> topic started with "Topic for #xubuntu is"
[17:32] <MichealH> Thanks knome
[17:32] <knome> no problem.
[17:32] <MichealH> Anyway... See you!
[17:32] <ikonia> what's wrong with the word The topic for xubuntu is?
[17:33] <ikonia> why is that a problem ?
[17:33] <knome> ikonia, that read in the topic
[17:33]  * charlie-tca shrugs
[17:33] <ikonia> knome: sorry, I'm not seeing it
[17:33] <knome> ikonia, i fixed it already
[17:33] <ikonia> knome: no, I'm looking at charlie-tca topic and it reads finr
[17:33] <ikonia> fine
[17:34] <ikonia> "the topic for Xubuntu is blah blah blah"
[17:34] <ikonia> rather than just "blah blah blah"
[17:34] <ikonia> not a problem
[17:34] <ikonia> it's just words
[17:34] <popey> :)
[17:35] <knome> well, imo it's better that there is no useless words in the beginning of the topic, just because eg. irssi windows are usually small
[17:36] <ikonia> dreamtraveler: hi there, how can we help
[17:36] <dreamtraveler> i am not in need of something
[17:37] <dreamtraveler> reboot:p
[17:37] <IdleOne> dreamtraveler: Can you please part the channel in that case. There is a no idleing rule here
[17:37] <IdleOne> idling*
[17:39] <MichealH> Also What do does this topic mean by IRCC nominations?
[17:39] <ikonia> nominations for the IRCC community council
[17:39] <MichealH> Okay
[17:40] <MichealH> I will see the ML
[17:40] <MichealH> See you!
[17:40] <ikonia> ?
[17:40] <ikonia> $1000000 says he nominate himself
[17:40] <knome> nominating himself is allowed.
[17:40] <ikonia> didn't say it wasn't
[17:41] <ikonia> just betting $1000000 he does
[17:41] <ikonia> any takes ?
[17:41] <IdleOne> and he will get a nicely worded email explaining why he is not yet qualified.
[17:41]  * charlie-tca thinks ikonia is correct
[17:42] <IdleOne> do you have $1000000?
[17:42] <ikonia> it's a safe bet
[17:42] <knome> is it really our business to think about if he does or not?
[17:42] <IdleOne> if you do, can I be your son :)
[17:42] <ikonia> knome: I'm allowed to comment
[17:42] <IdleOne> knome: not really
[17:42] <ikonia> the nominations are open, so yes, it is anyones business
[17:43] <ikonia> if you want I'll move my comments on it to #ubuntu-offtopic
[17:43] <knome> ikonia, sorry to say, but i'm not sensing a very positive tone on the comments
[17:43] <ikonia> it's not positive
[17:43] <knome> so it's okay to throw negative comments about people in the ops channel?
[17:44] <ikonia> no, it's ok to say I think he's going to nominate himself, and I don't think that is a good thing
[17:44] <knome> does that leave the ops neutral regarding future bans and issues?
[17:44] <ikonia> not being a good candidate for the council doesn't effect any judgment on bans
[17:44] <ikonia> if you want I'll discuss this in #ubuntu-offtopic
[17:45] <knome> this is not really about the nominations stuff.
[17:45] <ikonia> I felt it appropriate in here as the operators have an interest in who applies and suceeds on the application
[17:45] <ikonia> knome: what is it about then ?
[17:45] <IdleOne> asked neurochrome in PM to keep the language family friendly. he agreed without issue.
[17:46] <knome> ikonia, about the negative tone of the comments ops throw about people who leave the channel
[17:46] <ikonia> ok, I'll make myself crystal clear
[17:47] <ikonia> I think michaelh would be a poor nomination to the IRC community council, and I think it would be unwise for him to nominiate himself, but I believe he will anyway
[17:47] <jussi> what is this IRC community council you are all on about?
[17:47] <jussi> ikonia: everybody is free to apply though ;)
[17:47] <IdleOne> jussi: nothing for you to worry your pretty little head about :P
[17:48] <ikonia> jussi: exactly, just as everyone is free to comment
[17:48] <jussi> IRC Council last time I checked ;)
[17:48] <ikonia> however, if the operators channel is not appropriate I will take it to #ubuntu-offtopic
[17:48] <knome> ikonia, nvm.
[17:49] <jussi> ikonia: however it likely reflects badly on us if we have lots of negative comments in here
[17:49] <ikonia> knome: not at all, heaven forbid I have an opinion on the subject based on my experiences with the user
[17:49] <ikonia> jussi: don't talk nosnese
[17:49] <ikonia> my individual opinions do not reflect bad on the channel
[17:49] <ikonia> if you feel it does I'll discuss this in #ubuntu-offtopic
[17:49] <knome> jussi, exactly what i was thinking.
[17:50] <jussi> ikonia: that may be more appropriate.
[17:51] <ikonia> jussi: ok - then lets remove all negative views about any users situation from the channel
[17:51] <ikonia> jussi: and you can rest assured, I'll be watching
[17:53] <ikonia> and the same goes for any positive comments, as that can be seen as favourtism
[17:54] <knome> imo if the negative or positive comments is relevant to resolving an issue, that's fine, but if it's thrown after the user left the channel just out of pure annoyance or whatever, it's really unnecessary
[17:55] <knome> s/comments/comment/
[17:55] <ikonia> knome: you can sleep easy - I'll make sure I say it to the users face next time
[17:56] <ikonia> but I'll also not do it in this channel
[17:56] <ikonia> lets keep it for official business only
[17:57] <knome> oh well..
[17:58] <ikonia> knome: I'm curious, would you have comaplined if I said I hope michael applies to the IRCC I think he'd be a good edition ?
[17:59] <knome> no, because i don't think trying to create a positive athmosphere would be bad.
[17:59] <ikonia> why is ok to publicly support someone, but not publicly say not good
[18:00] <ikonia> that is showing a bias for bans in the future as your initial comment claimed
[18:00] <ikonia> eg: I favour him
[18:00] <knome> well again, i am not talking about the IRCC nominations but negative comments/tone in the channel generally
[18:00] <ikonia> but postive ones are gine ?#
[18:00] <ikonia> fine ?
[18:01] <knome> do you think trying to keep the mood cheerful is bad?
[18:01] <ikonia> cheerful isn't what I you complained about
[18:01] <ikonia> you said it showed a bias
[18:02] <knome> please.
[18:02] <ikonia> (bad typing there)
[18:02] <ikonia> ?
[18:02] <ikonia> please what
[18:02] <knome> it's not about the nominations
[18:02] <ikonia> err it was
[18:02] <knome> no.
[18:02] <ikonia> that's why I said $10000 he nominates himself
[18:02] <knome> i was, and am talking about the negative tones of the comments about users after they've left the channel
[18:03] <knome> not about nominations
[18:03] <ikonia> yes, about his potential nomination
[18:03] <ikonia> I believe it would be a negative thing if he nominated himself
[18:03] <tsimpson_> can we stop this now please?
[18:03] <knome> as you don't seem to understand what i'm trying to say, please let's stop it
[18:04] <ikonia> tsimpson_: why ? it's discussion about how to use this channel
[18:04] <IdleOne> ikonia: why do you think it would be a negative thing if he nominated himself?
[18:04] <ikonia> IdleOne: because he has a poor understanding of irc and ubuntu in general, he's young and too eager to make decisions off the fly
[18:04] <knome> tsimpson_, i suppose there isn't #ubuntu-ops-offtopic :)
[18:05] <tsimpson_> there is /msg ;)
[18:05] <ikonia> tsimpson_: publicly logged and transparant
[18:05] <knome> tsimpson_, too bad irc does not support 2+ user /msg's
[18:06] <IdleOne> ikonia: his lack of experience would be a major obstacle to getting voted in I agree but the feedback he gets from the CC would be positive I would hope.
[18:06] <seeker> And ops can't create a private channel to discuss stuff together in, otherwise it isn't transparent
[18:06] <ikonia> IdleOne: I agree, but hopefully realistic rather than wrapped in sunshine
[18:06] <tsimpson_> then the mailing list would be a more appropriate medium
[18:06] <seeker> And who knows what sort of comments we might make in there about users!
[18:06] <ikonia> tsimpson_: why ?
[18:07] <ikonia> tsimpson_: (genuinly)
[18:07] <IdleOne> ikonia: I would hope so also.
[18:07] <IdleOne> anyway I strayed from the subject
[18:07] <ikonia> IdleOne: it's a valid question,
[18:08] <tsimpson_> ikonia: just because -ops is mostly for admining the channels, if we are discussing the purpose of -ops, it's probably better to not have it in -ops
[18:08] <seeker> tsimpson_: There is Boone needing support right now, and it is a matter pertaining to -ops
[18:08] <ikonia> tsimpson_: it's discussing -ops behaviour
[18:08] <seeker> *Boone
[18:08] <seeker> Gag
[18:08] <seeker> *noone
[18:08] <seeker> *gah
[18:08] <tsimpson_> ikonia: yeah, that would probably be better on the ML
[18:08] <ikonia> fair enough
[18:09] <tsimpson_> more people get to read/reply than right here
[18:09] <tsimpson_> and it feel more of an "offical" comment when sent to the ML
[18:09] <seeker> All Ikonia said was " I bet $XXX that he nominates himself"
[18:10] <seeker> He didn't make any comments about his thoughts on that until he was asked about it
[18:10]  * tsimpson_ is not taking sides and doesn't have the full backlog
[18:10] <ikonia> no sides needed, it's just a difference of opinion
[18:10] <tsimpson_> give me an hour for irclogs.u.c to update and I'll comment ;)
[18:11] <seeker> And I agree in the assessment that he would be likely to nominate himself
[18:12] <seeker> It was knome that stated that we shouldn't discuss who nonminates themselves (which I disagree with - it is important to the running of this channel)
[18:12] <knome> seeker, incorrect.
[18:13] <knome> seeker, once again, i was not talking about nominations.
[18:13] <knome> as i seem to be misunderstood here tonight, i'll just shut my mouth.
[18:20] <ikonia> knome: nope, you're bang on, I fully take the point your making, so it's not lost on my, I just disagree with it
[18:21] <seeker> Sorry, my phone battery died
[18:22] <knome> ikonia, sorry if you feel like it was an attack towards you - definitely was not - but really, unnecessary negative comments about users, even if they were long-time banned are imo not really acceptable.
[18:22] <ikonia> lost on "me"
[18:23] <ikonia> knome: I take the point, but if you live by that, then you can't make positive comments about users either
[18:23] <ikonia> I find it better to be personally honest, but that doesn't mean it effects judgment
[18:23] <ikonia> I still hold the views I hold even if I say them outloud or not
[18:24] <knome> ikonia, i partly agree. this is about more than just what happened today - calling people names etc.
[18:24] <seeker> Whether or not we here in -ops like someone has little beating
[18:24] <ikonia> I didn't call anyone a name
[18:24] <knome> ikonia, you didn't.
[18:24] <seeker> *bearing on whether they are banned/unbanned
[18:24] <ikonia> knome: ooh, good, I thought you where suggesting I had then, if so I'd totally missed the part where I called someone a name
[18:24] <knome> ikonia, i didn't say you did, but calling people names is not nonexistent
[18:24] <ikonia> what is the name calling all abou t?
[18:25] <knome> umm
[18:25] <ikonia> ooh, I see what your saying
[18:25] <ikonia> never mind, re-read what you said
[18:25] <knome> i mean, calling people names happen
[18:25] <ikonia> does it ?
[18:25] <ikonia> I've not seen that beyond things like " a known troll "
[18:25] <seeker> knome: Examples?
[18:25] <ikonia> or that sort of thing
[18:25] <knome> 10:17 +Flannel: freaking idiot.
[18:25] <knome> 12:41 +ikonia: being an idiot in #freenode too
[18:25] <knome> from my lastlog
[18:26] <knome> just the two last comments with "idiot"
[18:26] <ikonia> ok, so I'll make sure I'll say "idiotic behaviour in freenode also"
[18:26] <seeker> Not really insults
[18:26] <ikonia> thats fine, if saying someone is being an idiot is unacceptable, then that stops
[18:26] <seeker> You generally find people behaving idiotically on irc,
[18:27] <knome> seeker, would you feel neutral if someone said you're an idiot?
[18:27] <seeker> Or there wouldn't be a need for this channel
[18:27] <seeker> "feel natural"?
[18:27] <ikonia> if you where behaving like one flooding the channel with spam/insults, then yes, I'd feel ok
[18:27]  * maco tosses in http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/11/ableist-word-profile-idiot/
[18:27] <knome> seeker, neutral i said
[18:27] <seeker> Sorry, on a phone
[18:28] <Pici> Words change meaning.
[18:28] <seeker> They are entitled to their opinion
[18:28] <IdleOne> seeker: neutral as in no feelings about being called an idiot
[18:28] <Pici> But thats neither here nor there.
[18:28] <seeker> Like I said, they are
[18:29] <knome> it's not really about the words, it's about the tone. i agree it's bad to just take some examples from lastlog, but the audience wanted examples
[18:29] <seeker> Entitled to their opinion. I may not go out of my way to help them
[18:29] <seeker> But I won't ban for it on it's own
[18:29] <ikonia> knome: so all you would like to see is "that user is also being a problem in #freenode too" rather than "they are being idiots in #freenode too"
[18:29] <seeker> See paladine in -uk for an example
[18:30] <knome> ikonia, don't you think the former has a better/more neutral tone in it's comment?
[18:31] <maco> i agree with knome
[18:31] <ikonia> knome: if I had said something like "they are being dick heads in #freenode too" I would totally agreee, however behaving like idiots, when they are I don't see a problem with
[18:31] <ikonia> knome: but if thats something you feel passionatly about, I'm happy to make sure the word idiots is not used
[18:32] <ikonia> (and other similar examples)
[18:32] <knome> ikonia, sounds good :)
[18:32] <knome> it's hard to catch exact tones in irc
[18:32] <knome> so better to use neutral words if possible
[18:33] <ikonia> it's not, you caught both the inteded ones I used - yes, I think they are behaving like idiots (negative) and I bet $100000 he applies (negative) you saw them just fine, as they where intended
[18:33] <knome> ok, let's say that sometimes it's hard to catch them ;)
[20:41] <jussi> ikonia: you about?