[09:34] <ssj6akshat> This dude thinks ayatana is for pushing canonical stuff upstream- http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/10/mark-shuttleworth-talks-projcet-harmony-unity-and-more/#comment-88878980
[09:37] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ ayatana *is* canonical's umbrella project name
[09:37] <vish> meh, they really should stop comments on OMG!
[09:37]  * vish shrugs..
[09:38] <ssj6akshat> and stop all the laughs?
[09:38] <ssj6akshat> no thanks
[09:39] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ btw, gtk-csd was in maverick , and it was reverted
[09:40] <ssj6akshat> didn't saw it, I started using maverick since alpha 2
[09:42] <ssj6akshat> BTW I wrote that post
[09:44] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ yeah, it caused crashes in a lot of apps, and several things you mention there are really not right either..
[09:45] <vish>  ssj6akshat ¦ and dont you mean copy-pasted a post ? ;)
[09:46] <ssj6akshat> I made an eye friendly version of irc logs complete with all the links to Open Week, but I think d0od removed them
[09:46] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ who does the banners for the site?
[09:47] <ssj6akshat> Joey Elijah Alexithymia aka d0od
[09:47] <ssj6akshat> the founder of the site
[09:48] <vish> hmm, yea no mention of UOW at all in that post.. :/
[09:49] <ssj6akshat> at least it has got a link to the IRC log
[09:50] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ that is a link to the classroom logs, and classroom is not really confined to UOW..
[09:51] <ssj6akshat> although you can see it in the excerpt http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/page/3/
[09:52] <vish> still not a reason to not mention in the post..
[09:54] <ssj6akshat> I do not blame d0od for this, he is working on OMG! full time and I might not be surprised that he is getting hallucinations due to lack of sleep
[09:56] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ d00d usually mentions and highlights the irc events,  there are several of his posts where he does specifically for the irc weeks
[09:57] <ssj6akshat> yeah maybe I forgot to mention it
[09:57] <ssj6akshat> I don't really remember, I was writing that post at midnight
[09:58] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ not too late to edit now.. ;)
[09:59] <vish> some of the banners are really neat!
[10:00] <ssj6akshat> should I ask d0od to join ubunut-art ?
[10:00] <vish> why not...
[10:00] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ i think he is already in the Mailing list ;)
[10:03] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ you guys should really think about ways to use the commenters' energy into helping Ubuntu, divert/harness some of that energy into doing something useful..
[10:06] <ssj6akshat> like?
[10:08] <ssj6akshat> I have recently joined OMG! Ubuntu! (about a week or two ago)
[10:08] <vish> ssj6akshat ¦ posts about how to get involved in Ubuntu, most of the the commenters seem to think that there is an elite community of developers.. but in reality anyone can be part of Ubuntu, they just need a direction
[10:10] <ssj6akshat> but I am currently busy with exams
[10:10] <ssj6akshat> and I want to pass high school
[10:11] <ssj6akshat> strange can't DM d0od on twitter
[10:13] <ssj6akshat> screw the exams, i am going to write a post about contributing now
[10:32] <ssj6akshat> people- https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1q9sslHeAYfi9-yVUlByRsP0jrqmdmjkyoj6PTX_UUa4&hl=en&authkey=CIPApuwD
[10:34] <ssj6akshat> vish https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1q9sslHeAYfi9-yVUlByRsP0jrqmdmjkyoj6PTX_UUa4&hl=en&authkey=CIPApuwD
[10:39] <ssj6akshat> !botsnack
[10:46] <bilalakhtar> !ot | ssj6akshat
[10:47] <bilalakhtar> ssj6akshat: What is that document for?
[10:47] <ssj6akshat> how to contribute to ubuntu - a post on omg! i am going to write
[10:47] <ssj6akshat> and i need help
[10:50] <bilalakhtar> ssj6akshat: OMG! is not related to Ubuntu in any way, you being an OMG! author should have read its disclaimer
[10:51] <bilalakhtar> Not related to -> OMG! is independent of Ubuntu
[10:51] <ssj6akshat> how to contribute to ubuntu is related to Ubuntu :)
[10:52] <bilalakhtar> ssj6akshat: But you are expected to write it yourself without poking people
[10:52] <ssj6akshat> vish asked me write, but i don't know what to write so i am asking for help
[10:55] <ssj6akshat> sorry it was not editable to everyone, i fixed it
[10:55] <bilalakhtar> ssj6akshat: http://www.ayatana.org
[10:56] <bilalakhtar> ssj6akshat: sorry, its http://blog.ayatana.org
[11:01] <ssj6akshat> vish help me
[11:09] <bilalakhtar> ssj6akshat: vish 's away, its rude to poke people who have marked themselves as Away.
[11:09] <bilalakhtar> AND
[11:09] <ssj6akshat> how do you know that he is away?
[11:09] <bilalakhtar> there is no hurry in posting on OMG!
[11:09] <bilalakhtar> ssj6akshat: /whois <NICK>
[12:11] <kvalo> klattimer: hi. are there any plans in natty to have a setting for not showing keyboard indicator?
[12:11] <klattimer> kvalo: yeah, it's all being sorted lots going on
[12:11] <kvalo> cool
[12:12] <ssj6akshat> phew
[12:12] <ssj6akshat> I hate unnecessary clutter
[12:13] <kvalo> same here
[12:13] <klattimer> take a look https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-indicator-keyboard
[12:21] <kvalo> klattimer: thanks, subscribed
[14:08] <ronoc> Cimi, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/496616
[14:09] <Cimi> ronoc: listen to mark dude! :P
[15:07] <mpt> klattimer, if you're around, we'd like to talk with you about keyboard stuff over the next 90 minutes
[15:09] <klattimer> mpt: here
[15:09] <mpt> great
[15:09] <klattimer> so what's up?
[15:10] <mpt> hi tedg
[15:10] <tedg> Good morning mpt
[15:11] <klattimer> hey tedg
[15:11] <mpt> klattimer, so, I guess the top priority for Natty is generating the icons for each keyboard layout and input method
[15:11] <tedg> I'm not in Texas physically, so there's no more Howdy's ;)
[15:11] <tedg> Afternoon klattimer
[15:11] <mpt> so that (a) the menu title can be just an icon, and (b) each menu item can have the appropriate icon.
[15:12] <klattimer> mpt: I was thinking it better to have the icons, and the "hint" decals done, and composite those as required
[15:12] <klattimer> if you looked at the wireframes I sent?
[15:12] <klattimer> but sure, we need icons, we also need the icons for various ibus packages also
[15:13] <klattimer> I need to collect all of these together
[15:14] <mpt> klattimer, you sent me links to <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-indicator-keyboard> and <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeyboardPreferences>. I haven't found any wireframes
[15:14] <klattimer> for the most part, what I've proposed is pretty easy, as we're effectively just dropping the independent ibus indicator and changing the way ibus sets the input method
[15:14] <klattimer> mpt let me check my sent
[15:14] <mpt> oh, found them
[15:14] <mpt> sorry klattimer
[15:15] <mpt> One day, Thunderbird will actually show attachments inline
[15:17] <klattimer> mpt: and that day the devil will skate to work in a fur coat
[15:17] <mpt> actually, I was being unfair
[15:17] <mpt> it was showing them inline
[15:17] <mpt> They just started exactly beyond the first screenful
[15:18] <klattimer> just really small?
[15:19] <mpt> ok, that looks fine
[15:19] <mpt> except for the "instead of using a radio button" part
[15:19] <klattimer> you don't like the idea?
[15:19] <mpt> The items should be both radio items *and* use icons
[15:20] <mpt> That's possible in dbusmenu
[15:20] <klattimer> yeah
[15:20] <klattimer> ok
[15:20] <mpt> See wi-fi networks in the network menu for example
[15:20] <mpt> (indicator-network, I mean)
[15:21] <klattimer> do you like the new profiles window?
[15:21] <klattimer> larger more readable layout example etc
[15:21] <klattimer> I'd like to get some great artwork and write a top quality cairo renderer for it
[15:22] <mpt> It looks like a good start
[15:22] <mpt> Probably it needs to be a bit more inductive
[15:22] <mpt> e.g. what list does "Sort layouts" apply to?
[15:22] <klattimer> well if an artist can design a key
[15:22] <klattimer> and colour variations
[15:22] <klattimer> I can write them in cairo
[15:23] <klattimer> just need an svg of a key to do it
[15:23] <mpt> What is a "profile"?
[15:23] <mpt> and so on
[15:23] <klattimer> Sort keyboard layouts perhaps?
[15:23] <klattimer> and the Country would change to Language as a result
[15:23] <klattimer> I think there are two too many references to country
[15:24] <klattimer> We should add some relevant tool tips and a help button to explain the options
[15:24] <klattimer> I'd happily do that with mallard docs
[15:25] <mpt> klattimer, you say "Remove the unexplained 'by country' and 'by language' tabbed notebook"
[15:25] <mpt> Where are those tabs now?
[15:25] <klattimer> yeah, in the original UI there was no indication of what the tabs meant
[15:25] <mpt> I don't see them in either the Keyboard Preferences window or the IBus Preferences window
[15:25] <klattimer> and I've replaced them with the radio buttons and Sort layouts title
[15:26] <mpt> What original UI are you talking about?
[15:26] <klattimer> if you "add layout" in the layout options
[15:26] <klattimer> you'll see the existing window
[15:26] <mpt> ah, I see
[15:26] <mpt> eww :-)
[15:26] <klattimer> exactly!
[15:27] <klattimer> and if you look at the inconsistent add/remove in the previous UI
[15:27] <klattimer> there's no way to edit a layout once you've added it
[15:27] <klattimer> only show the layout
[15:28] <klattimer> Obviously, the print button is the most important thing here? :S
[15:28] <klattimer> ibus too is inconsistent, as you select from a drop down list, then press add
[15:28] <klattimer> it took me a while to work that out
[15:28] <klattimer> by merging like this, we kill both those complications
[15:30] <mpt> klattimer, so, about changing the settings interface at all
[15:31] <klattimer> ?
[15:31] <mpt> This will be discussed more at UDS, but at this stage we don't know whether Natty will have the new gnome-control-center
[15:31] <mpt> (It depends on how complex its dependencies are)
[15:31] <klattimer> is it nearing completion?
[15:32] <klattimer> well I'm sure this work will be portable either way
[15:32] <mpt> If we will, then we shouldn't be implementing a new environment settings interface of any sort (e.g. keyboard) as a separate window
[15:32] <klattimer> hmm
[15:32] <klattimer> why not?
[15:33] <klattimer> I thought we'd be allowed some dialogs in the end?
[15:33] <mpt> because then we'd end up like Windows Vista/7
[15:33] <mpt> where you don't know what's going to happen when you click something in the Control Panel
[15:33] <klattimer> nah, if we keep it only one dialog at a time we're OK
[15:33] <klattimer> but if we're doing away with all dialogs
[15:33] <klattimer> that poses further problems
[15:33] <klattimer> e.g. the options dialog
[15:33] <mpt> So, it might be useful to investigate how easy it would be to port a standalone window to a g-c-c pane.
[15:34] <klattimer> well if the control center shell is being done, are there any current screen shots of the keyboard UI they intend to use?
[15:36] <mpt> it doesn't look like it
[15:37] <klattimer> I cant seem to find anything about it tbh
[15:37] <mpt> though aday did do a review of the current settings window <http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/Whiteboard/KeyboardPreferences>
[15:37] <mpt> Try <http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-control-center/tree/panels/keyboard>
[15:37] <klattimer> oh that's great
[15:38] <aday> klattimer: best ask mccann/svu/hadess about that. there's been some talk recently. 'typing break' has been dropped, for instance
[15:39] <klattimer> mpt: it looks mostly untouched
[15:39] <klattimer> hmm, typing break is a useful feature, why drop it?
[15:40] <aday> klattimer: because it's in the wrong place
[15:40] <klattimer> hmm
[15:40] <klattimer> fair enough, if there's somewhere better to put it?
[15:40] <aday> klattimer: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnomecc-list/2010-October/msg00006.html
[15:40] <klattimer> where would that be?
[15:40] <aday> a dedicated app, like workrave
[15:41] <klattimer> hmm, ok
[15:41] <klattimer> that sounds fair
[15:41] <aday> mpt: seen this? http://www.doodle.com/hgpcxeftrerkess3
[15:41] <mpt> aday, I had not, thanks
[15:43] <mpt> klattimer, why do you have "Country", "Keyboard Layout", and "Layout Variant" as three menus rather than two?
[15:44] <klattimer> Yeah, that's what I meant by there being one too many on there
[15:44] <klattimer> One of those can be removed
[15:44] <mpt> ok
[15:44] <mpt> Maybe this could instead be a table with three columns, where each cell is a radio menu
[15:45] <klattimer> ?
[15:45] <klattimer> We only need to organise by language or by country
[15:46] <klattimer> I don't think I'm following
[15:47] <mpt> For each "Profile" you need to specify (1) the country (or whatever we call it), (2) the layout+variant, and (3) the input method if any
[15:47] <klattimer> yeah
[15:47] <klattimer> 3 combo boxes
[15:48] <mpt> 3 menus * n profiles = table with 3 columns
[15:48] <mpt> However, at the last UDS someone told me that all X input methods assume a particular keyboard layout
[15:48] <klattimer> instead of 3 rows?
[15:48] <mpt> for hysterical X reasons
[15:49] <mpt> So for example, it's no use using the Chinese tonepy input method with the Afghanistan OLPC Dari keyboard layout
[15:50] <klattimer> well it wouldn't because the input methods available would be linked to country or language
[15:50] <mpt> because the Chinese tonepy input method expects to always be running on top of ... United States USA, I guess
[15:50] <klattimer> I think I explain that on the blueprint's whiteboard atm
[15:50] <mpt> ah, right
[15:51] <klattimer> Child options of this list are built according to the list
[15:51] <klattimer>             in ibus preferences (filtered to the current language or country?)
[15:51] <klattimer> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-indicator-keyboard
[15:51] <mpt> right
[15:51] <klattimer> there are other things which need to be considered
[15:52] <klattimer> e.g. laytex etc... will be in a submenu of the "by country" selection for "Other"
[15:52] <klattimer> so if it's not at all dependent on a layout, it can still be configured
[15:53] <klattimer> oh... yeah
[15:53] <klattimer> that's why there's an extra country
[15:53] <klattimer> :/
[15:53] <klattimer> because when it's organised by language
[15:53] <klattimer> ibus may have input methods which apply to a specific layout
[15:54] <klattimer> as per your example above
[15:54] <klattimer> but that isn't relevant to the language
[15:54] <klattimer> or country
[15:54] <klattimer> it's simply the keyboard layout
[15:54] <mpt> But what I'm getting at is, is there any input method that *isn't* tied to a specific layout?
[15:54] <mpt> If there isn't, that potentially makes the design much simpler
[15:55] <mpt> because we can present them as a single list
[15:55] <klattimer> hmm
[15:55] <klattimer> maybe we can then instead hide a few things away
[15:55] <klattimer> and mash things up behind the scenes
[15:56] <klattimer> So e.g. By Country "China" -> Variant -> "Dontcare" ->Input Method -> Tonepy - will select the appropriate layout
[16:00] <mpt> something like that
[16:00] <klattimer> ok, we'll work it out along the way
[16:00] <klattimer> shouldn't be too hard
[16:00] <klattimer> the best thing will be taking away the ibus indicator code all together
[16:00] <klattimer> the existing python stuff is horrific
[16:01] <klattimer> I'm still chasing more bugs which are popping up in strange places :/
[16:01] <kenvandine> horrific is being too nice
[16:01] <mpt> klattimer, ok, so maybe while you're working on the icons and the strange bugs, I can refine this layout for the combined window
[16:01] <mpt> and by the time we've both finished that, we should be clearer about whether gnome-control-center is in Natty
[16:02] <klattimer> ok, cool
[16:03] <mpt> klattimer, in the meantime, are you ok with me posting those wireframes you sent me, and the blueprint whiteboard, on a single wiki page?
[16:03] <klattimer> mpt: I'd already started getting into that
[16:03] <klattimer> but got drawn away by tomboy and ibus bugs
[16:04] <mpt> ok, following the principle of comparative advantage, you should continue on that while I do the wiki stuff. :-)
[16:06] <klattimer> k
[16:06] <klattimer> :)
[16:06] <klattimer> well tomboy is done
[16:06] <klattimer> ibus is still beating me :(
[16:07] <mpt> Maybe an indirect advantage of showing input methods in the same list as keyboard layouts is that it would be easier to do the keyboard stuff in upstream g-c-c without IBus necessarily being part of Gnome
[16:10] <klattimer> mpt: it might be possible to make the input method configuration stuff plugable
[16:10] <klattimer> then other input methods could write plugins for gcc/keyboard
[16:11] <klattimer> so selecting SCIM could show a SCIM config ui
[16:12] <mpt> maybe
[16:29] <mpt> klattimer, if other people want to help out, where's the code for them to branch?
[16:29] <klattimer> I haven't started a branch yet
[16:30] <klattimer> haven't started any code yet
[16:30] <klattimer> when I do, I'll update the wiki
[16:36] <mpt> klattimer, ok, I'll put "contact Karl Lattimer" as a placeholder ;-)
[16:36] <klattimer> k cool
[17:00] <aday> klattimer: the gnome folk have been having the very same discussion. can't remember the specifics though
[17:00] <aday> there is this - http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Guidelines/SystemStatus/InputLanguage
[17:00] <aday> don't know if it's any use though
[17:01]  * fagan never liked how windows put the language selection into the bar 
[17:01] <fagan> you could do something in about me and have prefered language and input
[17:02] <fagan> Id love about me to be used a lot more
[17:04] <aday> fagan: there have been plans for a region and language settings panel for gnome3 - http://live.gnome.org/Design/SystemSettings/RegionAndLanguage
[17:05] <aday> (which is where this stuff would live)
[17:05] <fagan> well id like for things to start getting bunched up
[17:05] <fagan> rather than having a few different preferences you could put a lot of it in about me
[17:06] <fagan> I know its not that cool to be dumping everything in there but it would be a lot better to have everything in one place
[17:06] <fagan> and your prefered language and input is about you so it makes sense logically
[17:07] <aday> fagan: the idea for gnome 3 is to have a personal settings section. you should check out the design work that's been done if you're interested
[17:07] <fagan> well ive kept up with most of it
[17:08]  * fagan was just talking about the current ubuntu context that could be done in 1 cycle 
[17:09] <davidbarth> klattimer: hi Karl, still here?
[17:48] <klattimer> davidbarth: sorry was doing some packing
[17:49] <klattimer> will be in orlando at about 2pm on sunday
[17:49] <klattimer> gotta get to manchester tomorrow :P
[17:49] <klattimer> gotta sort lots out tonight
[17:56] <prograam> hello
[20:58] <mpt> YokoZar, hi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MenuBar#notification-area
[21:07] <fagan> mpt: ill have that screenh
[21:07] <fagan> *shot
[21:07] <fagan> as soon as paint desides to open
[21:07]  * fagan is on his dads slow ass computer
[21:09] <mpt> thanks fagan
[21:45] <YokoZar> mpt: Makes me happy.  By "not be resizable" I presume you mean manually, right? (since we have no way of knowing how many icons might end up there)
[21:46] <mpt> YokoZar, yes, I'll clarify that